SysRPL a useful reference guide. - Hewlett Packard

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  1. SysRPL a useful reference guide.

    I've spent a considerable amount of time in an ongoing process of
    trying to become at least useful in the art of sysRPL. I have all the
    references I can find for guidance. None of the references are
    particularly useful, however; because they all assume the reader is
    devinely blessed with a sysRPL sixth sense and, with minimal hints at
    the subject matter, transform that into immaculate programs.

    What *really* is needed is a simplified reference that does all the
    usual things: List the verbs in a meaningful order. Describes them
    with stack diagrams. Give a brief textual functional description of
    how the item works. Give a snippet coding example. This is analogous
    to the format contained in the hp "hp48 Programmers Reference Manual,"
    or the "hp49g+ Advanced Users Guide."

    If such a guide were available there would be a lot more sysRPL
    programming going on. It is terribly frustrating trying to sort
    through the three or four available documents that are written
    seemingly without adequate editorial oversight and which shed minimal
    symbolic gestures at how the verb might be used.

    Since it's creation in 1984, some 23 years have passed, and there is
    really no decent sysRPL reference guide to be found (make that, "that
    I can find, anyway!") This is said with all due thanks to the authors
    of the material that can be found.

    I want to be wrong in venting my frustration ... but sadly, I doubt
    it. Does anyone know of a sysRPL reference guide similar to the
    hp49g+ AUR and how or where it could be obtained?

    Thank you.

    -Dot-

  2. Re: SysRPL a useful reference guide.

    Hi,

    I found the original RPLMan.doc to be very useful.
    It lists the supported entries, along with a brief
    description and stack I/O .
    And there are some code examples given,
    even for a POL and error trapping.

    Also very important: RPLMan.doc sheds some light
    on the RPL principles, the individual data structures, and more.

    And my version of RPLMan.doc is a plain ASCII text file,
    so searching for a keyword is very easy.

    However not everyone is interested in SysRPL programming,
    IMHO most HP calculator users are more or less happy
    with UserRPL, as most normal tasks can be programmed
    using UserRPL.

    Raymond

    "dot" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
    news:u4k803lbhln0s9an17nnu1nddccitn4bbg@4ax.com...
    > I've spent a considerable amount of time in an ongoing process of
    > trying to become at least useful in the art of sysRPL. I have all the
    > references I can find for guidance. None of the references are
    > particularly useful, however; because they all assume the reader is
    > devinely blessed with a sysRPL sixth sense and, with minimal hints at
    > the subject matter, transform that into immaculate programs.
    >
    > What *really* is needed is a simplified reference that does all the
    > usual things: List the verbs in a meaningful order. Describes them
    > with stack diagrams. Give a brief textual functional description of
    > how the item works. Give a snippet coding example. This is analogous
    > to the format contained in the hp "hp48 Programmers Reference Manual,"
    > or the "hp49g+ Advanced Users Guide."
    >
    > If such a guide were available there would be a lot more sysRPL
    > programming going on. It is terribly frustrating trying to sort
    > through the three or four available documents that are written
    > seemingly without adequate editorial oversight and which shed minimal
    > symbolic gestures at how the verb might be used.
    >
    > Since it's creation in 1984, some 23 years have passed, and there is
    > really no decent sysRPL reference guide to be found (make that, "that
    > I can find, anyway!") This is said with all due thanks to the authors
    > of the material that can be found.
    >
    > I want to be wrong in venting my frustration ... but sadly, I doubt
    > it. Does anyone know of a sysRPL reference guide similar to the
    > hp49g+ AUR and how or where it could be obtained?
    >
    > Thank you.
    >
    > -Dot-





  3. Re: SysRPL a useful reference guide.

    On Mar 24, 9:45 am, dot wrote:
    > I've spent a considerable amount of time in an ongoing process of
    > trying to become at least useful in the art of sysRPL. I have all the
    > references I can find for guidance. None of the references are
    > particularly useful, however; because they all assume the reader is
    > devinely blessed with a sysRPL sixth sense and, with minimal hints at
    > the subject matter, transform that into immaculate programs.
    >
    > What *really* is needed is a simplified reference that does all the
    > usual things: List the verbs in a meaningful order. Describes them
    > with stack diagrams. Give a brief textual functional description of
    > how the item works. Give a snippet coding example. This is analogous
    > to the format contained in the hp "hp48 Programmers Reference Manual,"
    > or the "hp49g+ Advanced Users Guide."
    >
    > If such a guide were available there would be a lot more sysRPL
    > programming going on. It is terribly frustrating trying to sort
    > through the three or four available documents that are written
    > seemingly without adequate editorial oversight and which shed minimal
    > symbolic gestures at how the verb might be used.
    >
    > Since it's creation in 1984, some 23 years have passed, and there is
    > really no decent sysRPL reference guide to be found (make that, "that
    > I can find, anyway!") This is said with all due thanks to the authors
    > of the material that can be found.
    >
    > I want to be wrong in venting my frustration ... but sadly, I doubt
    > it. Does anyone know of a sysRPL reference guide similar to the
    > hp49g+ AUR and how or where it could be obtained?
    >
    > Thank you.
    >
    > -Dot-


    So that's an excellent starting point for you to deliver such guide
    AFAIR HP has never encouraged SYS RPL programming so whatever is done
    is done by enthusiasts who deserve nothing but a big "thank you" and
    no critics whatsoever.
    cheers,
    reth


  4. Re: SysRPL a useful reference guide.

    On Fri, 23 Mar 2007 17:45:13 -0500, dot wrote:

    > None of the [SysRPL] references are particularly useful, however,
    > because they all assume the reader is devinely blessed
    > with a sysRPL sixth sense and, with minimal hints at
    > the subject matter, transform that into immaculate programs.


    Have you said which documents you've been reading thus far?

    > What's *really* is needed is a simplified reference that
    > does all the usual things: List the verbs in a meaningful order.
    > Describes them with stack diagrams.


    "Everything should be made as simple as possible...
    but no simpler." [Albert Einstein]

    > If such a guide were available there would be a lot more sysRPL
    > programming going on. It is terribly frustrating trying to sort
    > through the three or four available documents that are written
    > seemingly without adequate editorial oversight and which shed
    > minimal symbolic gestures at how the verb might be used.


    You seem to think that SysRPL is supposed to be
    an alternative programming language for all users,
    the way that ALG mode vs. RPN mode are two environments
    that are supposed to be there for everyone to use,
    and which each need to come documented with the product.

    But the fact that SysRPL exposes the ability to crash and lose
    all stored data upon every little mistake puts this entire
    subject into a category like people who build their own
    "hot rod" cars out of surplus airplane engines and parts;
    it's for a small minority of the very adventurous,
    a group which has to be much more resourceful and independent,
    as well as willing to accept the consequences of even trying.

    The AUR is an official product of HP, is actually inescapably
    required, to explain the product and make it useful, and is solely
    about functions which are *supposed* to be used by any purchaser,
    which are entirely *safe* to use; who is going to
    sponsor any equal effort to create something for the few,
    with which most people will crash, lose their data,
    and at first tend to make unsuspectingly flawed programs
    which might cause HP to be blamed itself for all that fails?

    What you ask for is available; however,
    it comes in a form more like diamonds in the rough.

    Mika Heiskanen's plain text document certainly does
    "list the verbs in a meaningful order,
    and describe them with stack diagrams";
    it's an extremely well organized (but very terse)
    giant "reference card," including almost everything (ML too),
    but you do need to understand basics first,
    which you can get from the Wickes/HP RPLman.doc

    Jim Donnelly's superb "HP48 Handbook 2nd Edition" (out of print)
    organized HP48G[X] knowledge in a different way, complementing
    the HP UserRPL manuals and often surpassing them; it also had
    a large section about useful SysRPL entry points, but
    making use of them solely via SYSEVAL in UserRPL programs,
    not introducing the (simpler syntax) SysRPL language,
    nor any SysRPL functions but those which manipulate data,
    so that you could merely sprinkle those into UserRPL programs
    as might be useful extra seasoning.

    Jim's other book then covered SysRPL natively;
    it was called "An *Introduction* to..."
    because the entire subject is really so much larger than UserRPL,
    so that even a full book by an HP48 developer
    was still only an introduction.

    Another angle to think of is that as we put more and more years
    of education and experience behind us, the "training wheels" and
    structured, pre-programmed learning fall more into the past,
    while self-initiated gathering and organizing the existing
    knowledge from others as we need it, comes to the forefront.

    Got a question? Ask it here, then -- don't expect every
    possible question to have been anticipated and the answers
    all recorded in advance for you; this is a huge field,
    and no one will spend the vast work of doing all that.

    I'd make this analogy: UserRPL is like the board game "Checkers."
    SysRPL is more like Chess, and is so much deeper in its strategic
    potential that there's no real comparison, even though
    there are just certain basic pieces, moves and rules,
    so it takes more personal investment to become proficient.
    Perhaps ML is then like the Chinese game of "Go"

    > I want to be wrong in venting my frustration ... but sadly,
    > I doubt it. Does anyone know of a sysRPL reference guide
    > similar to the hp49g+ AUR and how or where it could be obtained?


    What did you think of Kalinowski's book,
    which he put together all by himself?

    [r->] [OFF]

  5. Re: SysRPL a useful reference guide.


    >>
    >> Since it's creation in 1984, some 23 years have passed, and there is
    >> really no decent sysRPL reference guide to be found (make that, "that
    >> I can find, anyway!") This is said with all due thanks to the authors
    >> of the material that can be found.
    >>
    >> I want to be wrong in venting my frustration ... but sadly, I doubt
    >> it. Does anyone know of a sysRPL reference guide similar to the
    >> hp49g+ AUR and how or where it could be obtained?
    >>
    >> Thank you.
    >>
    >> -Dot-

    >
    >So that's an excellent starting point for you to deliver such guide
    >AFAIR HP has never encouraged SYS RPL programming so whatever is done
    >is done by enthusiasts who deserve nothing but a big "thank you" and
    >no critics whatsoever.
    >cheers,
    >reth


    Thanks for a fair answer, reth. The task for me to deliver the guide
    is on par with the chicken | egg paradox. I do appreciate those who
    have created the literature that is available. I offer a huge thanks
    to those who did. There is more that is needed, and it's not
    about criticism, rather more about progress and evolving the subject
    to a more useful level.

    -Dot-


  6. Re: SysRPL a useful reference guide.

    On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 00:37:46 -0500, "John H Meyers"
    wrote:

    John: I have become a secret admirer of your ability to clearly
    provide well thought out and accurate responses to the
    MANY questions you've addressed on this forum!

    (in-line comments follow)

    >On Fri, 23 Mar 2007 17:45:13 -0500, dot wrote:
    >
    >> None of the [SysRPL] references are particularly useful, however,
    >> because they all assume the reader is devinely blessed
    >> with a sysRPL sixth sense and, with minimal hints at
    >> the subject matter, transform that into immaculate programs.

    >
    >Have you said which documents you've been reading thus far?


    I have read through the following five sources (to date).

    1. rplman (hp)
    2. Programming in System Rpl - Kalinowski Dominik
    3. SysRPL Programming - Heiskanen
    4. Syseval Entries - (hp? Dominik?)
    5. Advanced programming information - Tim Wessman

    and others that have been read and removed from the hd.


    >
    >> What's *really* is needed is a simplified reference that
    >> does all the usual things: List the verbs in a meaningful order.
    >> Describes them with stack diagrams.

    >
    >"Everything should be made as simple as possible...
    >but no simpler." [Albert Einstein]
    >
    >> If such a guide were available there would be a lot more sysRPL
    >> programming going on. It is terribly frustrating trying to sort
    >> through the three or four available documents that are written
    >> seemingly without adequate editorial oversight and which shed
    >> minimal symbolic gestures at how the verb might be used.

    >
    >You seem to think that SysRPL is supposed to be
    >an alternative programming language for all users,
    >the way that ALG mode vs. RPN mode are two environments
    >that are supposed to be there for everyone to use,
    >and which each need to come documented with the product.


    Not so, this is a big leap from what I said. The introduction pages
    of rplman state, "The user language is suitable for simple programs,
    but for elaborate systems, the intentional error protection and other
    overhead can result in substantial performance penalties compared
    with the programs using the full range of system calls."

    I am interested in the full range of system calls. Interestingly,
    some of the authors state that once gaining familiarity with userRPL,
    sysRPL is easily learned. Other's have recongnized that sysRPL is
    difficult. Some say sysRPL is essentially a "syntax-less language,"
    while others say that strict adherence to the syntax is required or
    else! So I just think that sysRPL is not clearly described (yet),
    and has much more to offer.

    But, now that *you* mention it ... if it is there, why not?

    >
    >But the fact that SysRPL exposes the ability to crash and lose
    >all stored data upon every little mistake puts this entire
    >subject into a category like people who build their own
    >"hot rod" cars out of surplus airplane engines and parts;
    >it's for a small minority of the very adventurous,
    >a group which has to be much more resourceful and independent,
    >as well as willing to accept the consequences of even trying.
    >
    >The AUR is an official product of HP, is actually inescapably
    >required, to explain the product and make it useful, and is solely
    >about functions which are *supposed* to be used by any purchaser,
    >which are entirely *safe* to use; who is going to
    >sponsor any equal effort to create something for the few,
    >with which most people will crash, lose their data,
    >and at first tend to make unsuspectingly flawed programs
    >which might cause HP to be blamed itself for all that fails?


    Actually, I think hp itself sponsors the product with all the usual
    disclaimers. When the pitfalls of using sysRPL are described, even as
    you have stated, then I'm am not asking hp to bear the consequences of
    my own failed efforts.
    >
    >What you ask for is available; however,
    >it comes in a form more like diamonds in the rough.
    >
    >Mika Heiskanen's plain text document certainly does
    >"list the verbs in a meaningful order,
    >and describe them with stack diagrams";
    >it's an extremely well organized (but very terse)
    >giant "reference card," including almost everything (ML too),
    >but you do need to understand basics first,
    >which you can get from the Wickes/HP RPLman.doc
    >
    >Jim Donnelly's superb "HP48 Handbook 2nd Edition" (out of print)
    >organized HP48G[X] knowledge in a different way, complementing
    >the HP UserRPL manuals and often surpassing them; it also had
    >a large section about useful SysRPL entry points, but
    >making use of them solely via SYSEVAL in UserRPL programs,
    >not introducing the (simpler syntax) SysRPL language,
    >nor any SysRPL functions but those which manipulate data,
    >so that you could merely sprinkle those into UserRPL programs
    >as might be useful extra seasoning.
    >
    >Jim's other book then covered SysRPL natively;
    >it was called "An *Introduction* to..."
    >because the entire subject is really so much larger than UserRPL,
    >so that even a full book by an HP48 developer
    >was still only an introduction.


    Most of these references follow a similar paradigm. They are too
    concise, in general. Specifically, the AUR, and the hp48 Programmer's
    Reference Manual are the type of written format that I would find more
    useful. If I could find a collection of code snippets that I could
    paste into the references above, that would probably do the job. And
    yes, I have started to do that!
    >
    >Another angle to think of is that as we put more and more years
    >of education and experience behind us, the "training wheels" and
    >structured, pre-programmed learning fall more into the past,
    >while self-initiated gathering and organizing the existing
    >knowledge from others as we need it, comes to the forefront.


    This is a really significant point, in my opinion. Let's say there
    are currently 100 people (more or less) around the world that are
    truly capable sysRPL programmers. Most of them are probably ready to
    retire or getting close to pushing up daisies. Where else will that
    wealth of knowledge, and breadth of experience be available? The hp
    calc family will be truly at a loss if we don't chronicle it in the
    most meaningful way.

    >
    >Got a question? Ask it here, then -- don't expect every
    >possible question to have been anticipated and the answers
    >all recorded in advance for you; this is a huge field,
    >and no one will spend the vast work of doing all that.


    I wrote the original albeit most whining post after spending most of
    the day trying to manipulate code within a library that refers to
    variables within another library. I was frustrated knowing that what
    I wanted to accomplish could be done, I just didn't know how. As an
    english speaking citizen of the USA, the references might just as well
    have been written in ancient Hebrew for all that I was able to
    accomplish, afterward. Hence the frustration.

    You might have all the justification in the world to say it is a
    personal problem with me, but (I) can't let that stop (me). Questions?
    I have too many of them at this point ... I need to fight my way
    through these references until a worthwhile question emerges. Maybe
    if I can align my own thinking with the collective Corvallis team
    mindset, in hopes that I can understand their mannerism... what do I
    have to smoke in order to accomplish this?
    >
    >I'd make this analogy: UserRPL is like the board game "Checkers."
    >SysRPL is more like Chess, and is so much deeper in its strategic
    >potential that there's no real comparison, even though
    >there are just certain basic pieces, moves and rules,
    >so it takes more personal investment to become proficient.
    >Perhaps ML is then like the Chinese game of "Go"
    >
    >> I want to be wrong in venting my frustration ... but sadly,
    >> I doubt it. Does anyone know of a sysRPL reference guide
    >> similar to the hp49g+ AUR and how or where it could be obtained?

    >
    >What did you think of Kalinowski's book,
    >which he put together all by himself?


    I think he and Mr. Dominik are to be praised for all their laborious
    work. Thank you, sir's. However, I wish I had been by their side to
    review the text, and possibly wordsmith, and add code snippets, and
    maybe even better, have John H. Meyers be the editor, and ... and ...
    oh, what the heck.
    >
    >[r->] [OFF]



  7. Re: SysRPL a useful reference guide.

    On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 08:12:22 -0500, dot wrote:

    [Very thoughtfully, and kindly too]

    I was a bit too abrupt in some of my dashed-off comments
    (shouldn't write when tiring).

    > I have read through the following five sources (to date).
    >
    > 1. rplman (hp)
    > 2. Programming in System Rpl - Kalinowski Dominik
    > 3. SysRPL Programming - Heiskanen
    > 4. Syseval Entries - (hp? Dominik?)
    > 5. Advanced programming information - Tim Wessman
    >
    > and others that have been read and removed from the hd.


    Incredibly voracious reader

    > Interestingly, some of the authors state
    > that once gaining familiarity with userRPL,
    > sysRPL is easily learned.
    > Others have recognized that sysRPL is difficult.


    > Some say sysRPL is essentially a "syntax-less language,"
    > while others say that strict adherence to the syntax
    > is required or else!


    Subtle shifts in meanings. *Syntax* (language) of SysRPL
    is indeed simpler than UserRPL (one word in -> one address out,
    compiler isn't much more than a dictionary),
    but mastering and controlling the environment during execution
    is hard, and what's required isn't "strict adherence to syntax,"
    so much as to be able to juggle several stacks at the same time,
    (three times as many as in UserRPL), like a high-wire
    circus aerialist, with the safety net below removed

    Bye-bye "automatic transmission," hello "stick shift"

    Rules of "Go" (or operation of cellular automata) are also so simple,
    but consequences are so complex.

    A unicycle is certainly a simpler vehicle than a bicycle,
    but oh boy, it's so much harder to ride and keep from crashing

    Well, the morning shift at the analogy factory is winding down,
    so I guess it's about quitting time for this batch

    > I am not asking HP to bear the consequences
    > of my own failed efforts.


    Nor will they bear the expense or effort to document internals
    for general users (3rd party developers in HP48 era used to have
    to pay kilobucks just for access to the tools and internal info,
    much like developers must do today to get into Microsoft internals,
    or even to get "certified")

    "Microsoft provides no support or information concerning
    the Registry -- here's RegEdit, now you take it from there."

    > I was frustrated knowing that what I wanted to accomplish
    > could be done, I just didn't know how.


    The same experience for any new user of anything at all,
    certainly also for UserRPL programming, no matter that
    there's this huge AUR full of little facts,
    which don't jump together into program solutions
    (that's where Donnelly's handbook came in,
    providing insight, bringing together related info,
    a section for user interfacing, a section for
    application development -- not merely an A-Z alphabetic
    command list, which is in *random* functional order,
    as well as in random order of general utility).

    But that's just what you may have suggested, after all,
    so you're right on target.

    This newsgroup's arhives (preserved since its inception,
    stored by Google, and searchable at amazing speed)
    are another fund of knowledge, but there's such a quantity
    of it that no one can even remember that it all exists,
    and it would never get organized -- but it's there,
    much as all the software at www.hpcalc.org is there,
    if only you knew that it existed (there's no category for
    "finance" applications, so those are under "Misc"

    The earliest "MS Access" built-in help was well organized
    in depth, very easy to navigate to anything needed,
    unique icons, images and hand-made page layouts
    adding much to that, but new versions came along
    so fast that later "help"
    was just an indefinitely expandable tree of all identical,
    standardized "book icons,"
    no more the most vital stuff close to the root,
    nor leading first to what you'd want to learn first.

    As in journalism, there can be collections of fact,
    there can be in-depth insight, but the latter
    takes more of a well-seasoned author, and more time.

    > Maybe if I can align my own thinking with the collective
    > Corvallis team mindset, in hopes that I can understand
    > their mannerism... what do I have to smoke
    > in order to accomplish this?


    You give every impression of someone who will become a master,
    but everyone has to "begin at the beginning,
    and when you come to the end, then stop" (the Queen, to Alice)

    > I think Mr. Kalinowski and Mr. Dominik are to be praised
    > for all their laborious work.


    And I'm sure they're rewarded to know that their donation
    was useful over a long time -- large efforts started now,
    very late in the product life cycle, might be too late
    to be as worthwhile, so there's ever decreasing motivation
    for anyone to come along and start a project anew now.

    > However, I wish I had been by their side to review the text,
    > and possibly wordsmith, and add code snippets...


    Sounds as if we have a new volunteer,
    and that you're going to make a great contribution

    A quote:

    Put up in a place where it's easy to see
    this cryptic admonishment: "T.T.T."
    When you feel how depressingly slowly you climb,
    it is well to remember that "Things Take Time."

    http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Piet_Hein
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piet_Hein_(Denmark)
    http://www.piethein.com/
    http://www.piethein.com/usr/piethein...0?opendocument
    http://www.piethein.com/usr/piethein...on=1#_Section1
    http://www.google.com/search?q=%2Ba+site%3Apiethein.com

    -[ ]-

  8. Re: SysRPL a useful reference guide.

    Le dim 25 mar 2007 à 08:50 GMT, Steen Schmidt a écrit :
    > > This is a really significant point, in my opinion. Let's say there
    > > are currently 100 people (more or less) around the world that are
    > > truly capable sysRPL programmers. Most of them are probably ready
    > > to retire or getting close to pushing up daisies.

    >
    > I disagree. My feel is that people in this limited group are probably
    > spaced evenly from the mid-twenties and up. That's not necessarily
    > "pushing up daisies" territory. I'm 30 myself, but like most other
    > SysRPL capable programmers aren't motivated for this anymore, for
    > numerous obvious reasons. It was a dream, really, but an impossible
    > one in this day and age it seems. There will never again be a company
    > like HP was before the world went bad.


    I am still in my twentieth year. I like SysRPL and Saturn ASM, and I
    dislike C programming with the newest ARM-based calcs. Don't ask why, I
    have always preferred old things which keep working very well and are a
    remaining of some gold ages. And as you said, SysRPL and ASM are likely
    to be associated with a dream.

  9. Re: SysRPL a useful reference guide.

    On 25 Mar 2007 08:50:01 GMT, "Steen Schmidt"
    wrote:

    >dot wrote:
    >
    >> I am interested in the full range of system calls. Interestingly,
    >> some of the authors state that once gaining familiarity with userRPL,
    >> sysRPL is easily learned.

    >
    >I agree. RPN is the keyword to learn here.
    >
    >> Other's have recongnized that sysRPL is
    >> difficult.

    >
    >Those people are probably just used to getting everything for free
    >without hard labor - aka "spoiled".
    >
    >> So I just think that sysRPL is not clearly described (yet),
    >> and has much more to offer.

    >
    >Almost all information regarding SysRPL exist in the newsgroup archives
    >and elsewhere on the net. It also used to be possible to ask in this
    >forum to get already existing information repeated for the lazy, but
    >these days are mostly over (who would you ask today?).
    >
    >> Most of these references follow a similar paradigm. They are too
    >> concise, in general. Specifically, the AUR, and the hp48 Programmer's
    >> Reference Manual are the type of written format that I would find more
    >> useful.

    >
    >An AUR for SysRPL would be like an encyclopedia in volume. But, if you
    >have that need, the information is out there for you to collect. I do
    >not need it, hence I do not have the motivation to write it.
    >
    >> This is a really significant point, in my opinion. Let's say there
    >> are currently 100 people (more or less) around the world that are
    >> truly capable sysRPL programmers. Most of them are probably ready to
    >> retire or getting close to pushing up daisies.

    >
    >I disagree. My feel is that people in this limited group are probably
    >spaced evenly from the mid-twenties and up. That's not necessarily
    >"pushing up daisies" territory. I'm 30 myself, but like most other
    >SysRPL capable programmers aren't motivated for this anymore, for
    >numerous obvious reasons. It was a dream, really, but an impossible one
    >in this day and age it seems. There will never again be a company like
    >HP was before the world went bad.
    >
    >But I leave the SysRPL mark many places. A parser I wrote a couple of
    >years back (in LabVIEW of all languages) uses several SysRPL mnemonics
    >and mechanisms. Such programming often cause raised eyebrows, but when
    >people eventually understand the code, they usually give it an
    >appreciative nod. But they also think I'm a bit weird at the same time
    >:-)
    >
    >> I wrote the original albeit most whining post after spending most of
    >> the day trying to manipulate code within a library that refers to
    >> variables within another library. I was frustrated knowing that what
    >> I wanted to accomplish could be done, I just didn't know how. As an
    >> english speaking citizen of the USA, the references might just as well
    >> have been written in ancient Hebrew for all that I was able to
    >> accomplish, afterward. Hence the frustration.

    >
    >Maybe you're just nok cut out for SysRPL, then? I find it really easy,
    >it just takes hard work. It's for example much much easier than raising
    >children in a meaningful way.
    >
    >In SysRPL there are mainly two things that can be hard to fathom:
    >runstream manipulating words and the fact that similar looking words
    >may do very different things (poorly chosen and sometimes inconsistent
    >mnemonics). Beyond that it's just a UserRPL world with ten times as
    >many words.
    >
    >> You might have all the justification in the world to say it is a
    >> personal problem with me, but (I) can't let that stop (me).

    >
    >That's the spirit!
    >
    >Best regards,
    >Steen


    Thanks, (I think). I was able to get past the dilemma that led to my
    bluesy end of the day original post. Some of the problem was the
    syntax (rules) of the "largely syntax-less" language, (my boo boo);
    and another was a requirement for space characters immediately after
    the opening brace and before the closing brace for a list objects in
    both the reset and initial values of the inform editor in Debug4x.

    Actually, that last item was where I spent a lot of time!

    {THINGS STUFF ETC} won't work.
    { THINGS STUFF ETC } will.

    It's the little things that stall me out most of the time. I hope I
    don't forget that trivia as I age.




  10. Re: SysRPL a useful reference guide.

    On Sun, 25 Mar 2007 05:33:03 -0500, Khanh-Dang wrote:

    > I have always preferred old things which keep working very well
    > and are a remnant of some golden age.


    The universe, a remnant of the Big Bang?

    Methuselah!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methuselah
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methuselah_(tree)

    Vyasa:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vyasa
    http://www.vaisnavacalendar.info/i/g...a-purnima.html

    "He [Parasara] then created an island in the river
    and on that island the girl conceived a child in her womb.
    Parasara explained to her that even after the child was born
    she would remain a virgin and the son born to her
    would be a portion of Lord Visnu
    and would be famous throughout the three worlds.
    He would be a man of purity,
    the spiritual master of the entire world,
    and He would divide the Vedas.
    Srila Vyasa soon grew into everything that Parasara had described,
    and had many disciples."

    Is it not interesting how the same fundamental themes
    appear again and again, yet perhaps each culture
    entirely unknown to the other?

    Back to the Big Bang, for another view:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiranyagarbha

    Scientists and mathematicians:

    "An honest man, armed with all the knowledge available to us now,
    could only state that in some sense, the origin of life appears
    at the moment to be almost a miracle, so many are the conditions
    which would have to have been satisfied to get it going."
    - Sir Francis Crick

    "The odds that a universe such as ours could have emerged
    from a singularity are of the magnitude of 10^(10^123)"
    - Roger Penrose

    Best wishes from http://www.mum.edu
    and http://www.maharishischooliowa.org

  11. Re: SysRPL a useful reference guide.

    On Sun, 25 Mar 2007 12:33:03 +0200, Khanh-Dang
    wrote:

    >Le dim 25 mar 2007 à 08:50 GMT, Steen Schmidt a écrit :
    >> > This is a really significant point, in my opinion. Let's say there
    >> > are currently 100 people (more or less) around the world that are
    >> > truly capable sysRPL programmers. Most of them are probably ready
    >> > to retire or getting close to pushing up daisies.

    >>
    >> I disagree. My feel is that people in this limited group are probably
    >> spaced evenly from the mid-twenties and up. That's not necessarily
    >> "pushing up daisies" territory. I'm 30 myself, but like most other
    >> SysRPL capable programmers aren't motivated for this anymore, for
    >> numerous obvious reasons. It was a dream, really, but an impossible
    >> one in this day and age it seems. There will never again be a company
    >> like HP was before the world went bad.

    >
    >I am still in my twentieth year. I like SysRPL and Saturn ASM, and I
    >dislike C programming with the newest ARM-based calcs. Don't ask why, I
    >have always preferred old things which keep working very well and are a
    >remaining of some gold ages. And as you said, SysRPL and ASM are likely
    >to be associated with a dream.


    Given that the dream was being born back in the mid eighties, anyone
    old enough to appreciate that dream at the time (the Corvallis team,
    et al, for example), have only fond memories of their twenties and
    thirties.

    Most all of the published material still refers to the hp48 and
    sometimes a little "works on hp49g and later" tagline is included. If
    you were the original proud owner of a new hp48, and you are in your
    twenties, someone forged your birth certificate.

    Are any of: Mika Heiskanen, Eduardo Kalinowski, Carsten Dominik, JYA,
    and even the esteamed John H. Meyers and Joe Horn (no particular order
    there!) anywhere close to their twenties? (these are the authors of
    the material that I have read, mainly).

    So it is up to us young 'uns to perpetuate the dream. (Or is that a
    nightmare?)

    -Dot-

    Geeze, I just realized that I have a lot in common with the elders,
    for I was born in '48!

















  12. Re: SysRPL a useful reference guide.

    On Sun, 25 Mar 2007 06:51:02 -0500, -dot- wrote:

    > Are any of: ... JHM, ... close to their twenties?


    I live not far from the twenties *block*

    How did you know that I was steamed? ;-)

    -[ ]-

  13. Re: SysRPL a useful reference guide.

    On Sun, 25 Mar 2007 09:52:10 -0500, "John H Meyers"
    wrote:

    >On Sun, 25 Mar 2007 06:51:02 -0500, -dot- wrote:
    >
    >> Are any of: ... JHM, ... close to their twenties?

    >
    >I live not far from the twenties *block*
    >
    >How did you know that I was steamed? ;-)

    Because you're not known to have ever 'clamed up'?
    >
    >-[ ]-



  14. Re: SysRPL a useful reference guide.

    On Sun, 25 Mar 2007 06:51:02 -0500, -dot- wrote:

    > Are any of: [...] and Joe Horn (no particular order there!)
    > anywhere close to their twenties?


    Joe must be the eldest of all,
    because he's old enough
    to be everyone else's Father

    http://holyjoe.net
    http://holyjoe.net/hobbies.htm [includes calc stuff]

  15. Re: SysRPL a useful reference guide.

    John H Meyers wrote:

    > Joe must be the eldest of all,
    > because he's old enough
    > to be everyone else's Father


    Even my dad calls me "Father". It's quite confusing.
    http://www.ziplo.com/grandpa.htm

    > http://holyjoe.net/hobbies.htm[includes calc stuff]


    Omigosh, that stuff's getting pretty stale. Time to add some new
    goodies!

    -Joe-
    "Twenty's fast and hard as nails; it never comes again." -- John Denver


  16. Re: SysRPL a useful reference guide.

    "Joe Horn" wrote in message
    news:1174985049.595578.44950@n76g2000hsh.googlegro ups.com...
    X
    > Omigosh, that stuff's getting pretty stale. Time to add some new
    > goodies!


    where are the pictures??

    Father?
    Mathew 23:9



  17. Re: SysRPL a useful reference guide.

    On Mar 25, 4:54*pm, "Veli-Pekka Nousiainen"
    wrote:
    > "Joe Horn" wrote in message
    >
    > news:1174985049.595578.44950@n76g2000hsh.googlegro ups.com...
    > X
    >
    > > Omigosh, that stuff's getting pretty stale. *Time to add some new
    > > goodies!

    >
    > where are the pictures??
    >
    > Father?
    > Mathew 23:9


    Well, this is a very comprehensive list that the OP has listed:

    1. rplman (hp)
    2. Programming in System Rpl - Kalinowski Dominik
    3. SysRPL Programming - Heiskanen
    4. Syseval Entries - (hp? Dominik?)
    5. Advanced programming information - Tim Wessman

    Could/would someone be able to post the exact locations/linkd where we
    (who are interested) can obtain these?

    Thanks,
    TomCee

  18. Re: SysRPL a useful reference guide.

    On 26 Mar, 12:58, tomcee wrote:
    > On Mar 25, 4:54 pm, "Veli-Pekka Nousiainen"
    >
    > wrote:
    > > "Joe Horn" wrote in message

    >
    > >news:1174985049.595578.44950@n76g2000hsh.googlegro ups.com...
    > > X

    >
    > > > Omigosh, that stuff's getting pretty stale. Time to add some new
    > > > goodies!

    >
    > > where are the pictures??

    >
    > > Father?
    > > Mathew 23:9

    >
    > Well, this is a very comprehensive list that the OP has listed:
    >
    > 1. rplman (hp)
    > 2. Programming in System Rpl - Kalinowski Dominik
    > 3. SysRPL Programming - Heiskanen
    > 4. Syseval Entries - (hp? Dominik?)
    > 5. Advanced programming information - Tim Wessman
    >
    > Could/would someone be able to post the exact locations/linkd where we
    > (who are interested) can obtain these?
    >
    > Thanks,
    > TomCee


    Hi TomCee.
    Here's the single links to the references:

    > 1. rplman (hp)


    http://www.hpcalc.org/hp48/docs/programming/rpl-pdf.zip

    RPL Programming Guide from Goodies Disk 4 in Adobe Acrobat PDF format.
    By Hewlett-Packard (http://www.hp.com/calculators/).

    > 2. Programming in System Rpl - Kalinowski Dominik


    http://www.hpcalc.org/hp49/docs/prog...sysrpl_pdf.zip

    Second edition of the free on-line book "Programming in System RPL", a
    640-page tutorial and reference for System RPL programmers. This
    second edition has many improvements and describes new features
    present in the HP49G calculator. In Adobe PDF format.
    By Eduardo M. Kalinowski (http://move.to/hpkb) and Carsten Dominik
    (http://staff.science.uva.nl/~dominik/hpcalc/).

    http://www.hpcalc.org/hp49/docs/prog...l_examples.zip

    Example programs from the second edition of the free on-line book
    "Programming in System.
    By Eduardo M. Kalinowski (http://move.to/hpkb) and Carsten Dominik
    (http://staff.science.uva.nl/~dominik/hpcalc/).

    > 3. SysRPL Programming - Heiskanen


    ??? can't find :-(

    > 4. Syseval Entries - (hp? Dominik?)


    http://www.hpcalc.org/hp49/programming/entries/edb.zip

    ASCII database with more than 7500 entries points for HP48, HP49, hp49g
    +, hp48gII, HP38, HP39, HP40, complete with stack diagrams and
    descriptions. Includes a program to extract PDF and ASCII listings of
    selected entries. The reference sections of the book "Programming in
    System RPL, 2nd edition" are based on an earlier version of this
    database. Extracts for individual calculators are available from this
    site, in PDF format.
    By Carsten Dominik (http://staff.science.uva.nl/~dominik/hpcalc/),
    Thomas Rast, and Eduardo M. Kalinowski (http://move.to/hpkb).

    > 5. Advanced programming information - Tim Wessman


    http://www.timandkatie.com/calc/index.html (see the "Docs" page for
    more references).


    Hope this helps.
    Best regards.
    Giancarlo

  19. Re: SysRPL a useful reference guide.

    On Mar 26, 10:29*am, Giancarlo wrote:
    > On 26 Mar, 12:58, tomcee wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > > On Mar 25, 4:54 pm, "Veli-Pekka Nousiainen"

    >
    > > wrote:
    > > > "Joe Horn" wrote in message

    >
    > > >news:1174985049.595578.44950@n76g2000hsh.googlegro ups.com...
    > > > X

    >
    > > > > Omigosh, that stuff's getting pretty stale. *Time to add some new
    > > > > goodies!

    >
    > > > where are the pictures??

    >
    > > > Father?
    > > > Mathew 23:9

    >
    > > Well, this is a very comprehensive list that the OP has listed:

    >
    > > * * *1. *rplman * (hp)
    > > * * *2. *Programming in System Rpl - Kalinowski *Dominik
    > > * * *3. SysRPL Programming - Heiskanen
    > > * * *4. Syseval Entries - (hp? Dominik?)
    > > * * *5. *Advanced programming information - Tim Wessman

    >
    > > Could/would someone be able to post the exact locations/linkd where we
    > > (who are interested) can obtain these?

    >
    > > Thanks,
    > > TomCee

    >
    > Hi TomCee.
    > Here's the single links to the references:
    >
    > > * * *1. *rplman * (hp)

    >
    > http://www.hpcalc.org/hp48/docs/programming/rpl-pdf.zip
    >
    > RPL Programming Guide from Goodies Disk 4 in Adobe Acrobat PDF format.
    > By Hewlett-Packard (http://www.hp.com/calculators/).
    >
    > > * * *2. *Programming in System Rpl - Kalinowski *Dominik

    >
    > http://www.hpcalc.org/hp49/docs/prog...sysrpl_pdf.zip
    >
    > Second edition of the free on-line book "Programming in System RPL", a
    > 640-page tutorial and reference for System RPL programmers. This
    > second edition has many improvements and describes new features
    > present in the HP49G calculator. In Adobe PDF format.
    > By Eduardo M. Kalinowski (http://move.to/hpkb) and Carsten Dominik
    > (http://staff.science.uva.nl/~dominik/hpcalc/).
    >
    > http://www.hpcalc.org/hp49/docs/prog...l_examples.zip
    >
    > Example programs from the second edition of the free on-line book
    > "Programming in System.
    > By Eduardo M. Kalinowski (http://move.to/hpkb) and Carsten Dominik
    > (http://staff.science.uva.nl/~dominik/hpcalc/).
    >
    > > * * *3. SysRPL Programming - Heiskanen

    >
    > ??? can't find :-(
    >
    > > * * *4. Syseval Entries - (hp? Dominik?)

    >
    > http://www.hpcalc.org/hp49/programming/entries/edb.zip
    >
    > ASCII database with more than 7500 entries points for HP48, HP49, hp49g
    > +, hp48gII, HP38, HP39, HP40, complete with stack diagrams and
    > descriptions. Includes a program to extract PDF and ASCII listings of
    > selected entries. The reference sections of the book "Programming in
    > System RPL, 2nd edition" are based on an earlier version of this
    > database. Extracts for individual calculators are available from this
    > site, in PDF format.
    > By Carsten Dominik (http://staff.science.uva.nl/~dominik/hpcalc/),
    > Thomas Rast, and Eduardo M. Kalinowski (http://move.to/hpkb).
    >
    > > * * *5. *Advanced programming information - Tim Wessman

    >
    > http://www.timandkatie.com/calc/index.html(see the "Docs" page for
    > more references).
    >
    > Hope this helps.
    > Best regards.
    > Giancarlo- Hide quoted text -
    >
    > - Show quoted text -


    Giancarlo:

    Thank you very much for the prompt concise response!
    Regards,
    TomCee

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