recommandations for backup solution - Hardware

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  1. recommandations for backup solution

    Hi,

    I'm looking for a relatively easy way and relatively
    cheap way to do weekly backup of around 10 Gb
    of data.

    Since three years the backups have been done
    using a little shell script called weekly that then
    automagically burns a DVD.

    (daily backup are done on the network, weekly
    DVD backup goes in a safe at the bank).

    This corresponds to the "main" server of an SME:
    the "data" is evolving so I can't just always "diff".
    (I'm making daily differential backups and weekly
    full backup to a DVD).

    Data is growing steadily, at around 3 GB per year,
    so it's really not that much... But it doesn't fit on
    a DVD anymore and it's not very convenient to
    use two DVDs (soon three, etc.).

    So I don't need to backup that much data but it's
    not fitting a single DVD anymore.

    I was thinking of the BWU-100A (Sony DVD Blu
    Ray burner) that can burn both DVDs and Blu Ray
    discs, up to 50 Gb per disc.

    Would that work under Linux ? Would I need to
    upgrade to a "recent" kernel ? (Which could be
    quite a pain but its doable).

    I don't like the idea of backing up to a removable
    HD as I don't see myself giving the boss one HD
    to store at the bank per week.

    So here's my problem : data is getting a little
    too big for a DVD but it's not gigantic either (and
    won't be anytime soon)...

    Backups needs to be done "unattended" : at the
    moment the script runs during the weekend and
    burns the disc in the drive. The boss arrives on
    monday, takes the DVD and put it in the safe once
    he goes to the bank.

    What would you recommend?

    The more important aspect are "easy" to configure
    (as in easy to be recognized by the hardware, not as
    in "I need a shiny button to click-on") and relatively
    cheap.

    At the moment it's costing us the price of a DVD per
    week, which is affordable.


  2. Re: recommandations for backup solution

    On Mon, 14 May 2007 12:38:39 -0700, neuneudr wrote:

    > Hi,
    >
    > I'm looking for a relatively easy way and relatively cheap way to do
    > weekly backup of around 10 Gb of data.
    >
    > Since three years the backups have been done using a little shell script
    > called weekly that then automagically burns a DVD.
    >
    > (daily backup are done on the network, weekly DVD backup goes in a safe
    > at the bank).
    >
    > This corresponds to the "main" server of an SME: the "data" is evolving
    > so I can't just always "diff". (I'm making daily differential backups
    > and weekly full backup to a DVD).
    >
    > Data is growing steadily, at around 3 GB per year, so it's really not
    > that much... But it doesn't fit on a DVD anymore and it's not very
    > convenient to use two DVDs (soon three, etc.).
    >
    > So I don't need to backup that much data but it's not fitting a single
    > DVD anymore.
    >
    > I was thinking of the BWU-100A (Sony DVD Blu Ray burner) that can burn
    > both DVDs and Blu Ray discs, up to 50 Gb per disc.
    >
    > Would that work under Linux ? Would I need to upgrade to a "recent"
    > kernel ? (Which could be quite a pain but its doable).
    >
    > I don't like the idea of backing up to a removable HD as I don't see
    > myself giving the boss one HD to store at the bank per week.
    >
    > So here's my problem : data is getting a little too big for a DVD but
    > it's not gigantic either (and won't be anytime soon)...
    >
    > Backups needs to be done "unattended" : at the moment the script runs
    > during the weekend and burns the disc in the drive. The boss arrives on
    > monday, takes the DVD and put it in the safe once he goes to the bank.
    >
    > What would you recommend?
    >
    > The more important aspect are "easy" to configure (as in easy to be
    > recognized by the hardware, not as in "I need a shiny button to
    > click-on") and relatively cheap.
    >
    > At the moment it's costing us the price of a DVD per week, which is
    > affordable.


    There is no mention of Linux on Sony's website and none of the reviews on
    Newegg mention it, so it doesn't look good. It's a little early to adopt
    Blu ray, I'd want to wait and see if the format is going to survive.


  3. Re: recommandations for backup solution

    neuneudr@yahoo.fr wrote:
    > Hi,
    >
    > I'm looking for a relatively easy way and relatively
    > cheap way to do weekly backup of around 10 Gb
    > of data.
    >
    > Since three years the backups have been done
    > using a little shell script called weekly that then
    > automagically burns a DVD.
    >

    ....
    >
    > I was thinking of the BWU-100A (Sony DVD Blu
    > Ray burner) that can burn both DVDs and Blu Ray
    > discs, up to 50 Gb per disc.


    This might be an option in the future, but too
    much is at risk IMHO today.

    >
    > Would that work under Linux ? Would I need to
    > upgrade to a "recent" kernel ? (Which could be
    > quite a pain but its doable).
    >
    > I don't like the idea of backing up to a removable
    > HD as I don't see myself giving the boss one HD
    > to store at the bank per week.
    >
    > So here's my problem : data is getting a little
    > too big for a DVD but it's not gigantic either (and
    > won't be anytime soon)...


    I don't know.. you say you're growing... so perhaps
    you just need to get a single LTO3 tape drive.
    400/800 GB per tape.

    That would give you plenty of capacity given your
    growth needs and you'll pretty much saturate
    your local buses before saturating the rate
    a which you can write to the drive.

    So... it's fast, relatively cheap and gives
    you space for years to come.

    >
    > Backups needs to be done "unattended" : at the
    > moment the script runs during the weekend and
    > burns the disc in the drive. The boss arrives on
    > monday, takes the DVD and put it in the safe once
    > he goes to the bank.


    Boss arrives, puts tape in drive... etc...

    >
    > What would you recommend?


    Tar to tape. Rotate tapes as needed.

    >
    > The more important aspect are "easy" to configure
    > (as in easy to be recognized by the hardware, not as
    > in "I need a shiny button to click-on") and relatively
    > cheap.
    >
    > At the moment it's costing us the price of a DVD per
    > week, which is affordable.


    LTO3 tapes are more expensive, but the idea is that
    you would rotate them.... you'll have to decide
    on a rotation scheme that works best for you. In
    general, in our rapid data changing space, long
    term retention isn't as popular as it used to be.
    But... you could be in an industry that demands
    it... so look for the levels of compliance you
    have to maintain.

    A new LTO3 tape drive can cost you a couple of
    thousands of dollars.

    A SCSI LTO3 tape drive should configure right
    up in Linux.

    If you don't mind dropping some performance,
    you can try LTO1 or LTO2 to save some dollars
    at the cost of performance and capacity. There
    are other tape technologies as well.. you could
    look at DLT and possibly save more. There
    are even cheaper tape solutions... but sometimes
    you "get what you pay for."

    (LTO3 is a bit more future proof)


  4. Re: recommandations for backup solution

    General Schvantzkoph staggered into the Black Sun and said:
    > On Mon, 14 May 2007 12:38:39 -0700, neuneudr wrote:
    >> I'm looking for a relatively easy way and relatively cheap way to do
    >> weekly backup of around 10 Gb of data.

    [snip]
    >> I was thinking of the BWU-100A (Sony DVD Blu Ray burner) that can
    >> burn both DVDs and Blu Ray discs, up to 50 Gb per disc. Would that
    >> work under Linux? Would I need to upgrade to a "recent" kernel?
    >> (Which could be quite a pain but its doable).


    If you don't keep on top of kernel upgrades, it'll bite you in the ass
    eventually. How old's your kernel, anyway? You should be using 2.6
    now.

    >> Backups needs to be done unattended. What would you recommend?


    SCSI card + DDS-4 tape drive? 20G per medium, supported with little
    hassle, figure about $250 for the drive and $50 for the card. Media are
    about $5 or $6 per tape. You'll need a cleaning tape, and you'll want
    to clean the drive every week. Back up with tar or amanda or cpio or
    whatever. Tapes are sequential, so restoring 1 file from tape will be
    more annoying than restoring 1 file from a DVD.

    > There is no mention of Linux on Sony's website and none of the reviews
    > on Newegg mention it, so it doesn't look good.


    You should know by now that manufacturers generally don't have a clue.
    The dvd+rw-tools source tarball mentions BD-R in a few places, so I'd
    assume that preliminary work has already been done. It'd surprise me if
    they changed things greatly from the MMC-3 standard. The BD-R drives
    and media that I've seen in the local Worst Buy are *expensive* though.
    $600 for a drive, $20 for a 25G medium. Sure, it's random-access, but
    it's also years away from being at a decent price point. HTH anyway,

    --
    ...many people in this group spent their school years taking pointless
    orders from morons and having their will to live crushed. And people
    say school doesn't prepare kids for the real world. --Rayner, in ASR
    Matt G|There is no Darkness in Eternity/But only Light too dim for us to see

  5. Re: recommandations for backup solution

    neuneudr@yahoo.fr wrote:

    > So I don't need to backup that much data but it's
    > not fitting a single DVD anymore.


    What about USB memory sticks?

    Hopefully as your data grows, so will the capacity of new sticks.

    Mark.

    --
    Mark Hobley
    393 Quinton Road West
    QUINTON
    Birmingham
    B32 1QE

    Email: markhobley at hotpop dot donottypethisbit com

    http://markhobley.yi.org/


  6. Re: recommandations for backup solution

    On Mon, 14 May 2007 12:38:39 -0700, neuneudr wrote:

    > Hi,
    >
    > I'm looking for a relatively easy way and relatively
    > cheap way to do weekly backup of around 10 Gb
    > of data.


    I use partimage to back to a USB external drive.

    >


  7. Re: recommandations for backup solution

    On May 15, 12:29 am, Dances With Crows
    wrote:


    ^^^^

    Is this the famous "Dances With Crows" that is around since
    such a long time in the various comp.os.linux.* group ?

    I'm pretty sure you answered questions of mine years ago, which
    I was asking with another nickname and I'm 100% sure I found
    lots of replies from you in Google's DejaNews
    (I meant groups.google.com

    Thanks! (to the others posters too btw)


    > General Schvantzkoph staggered into the Black Sun and said:
    >
    > > On Mon, 14 May 2007 12:38:39 -0700, neuneudr wrote:
    > >> I'm looking for a relatively easy way and relatively cheap way to do
    > >> weekly backup of around 10 Gb of data.

    > [snip]
    > >> I was thinking of the BWU-100A (Sony DVD Blu Ray burner) that can
    > >> burn both DVDs and Blu Ray discs, up to 50 Gb per disc. Would that
    > >> work under Linux? Would I need to upgrade to a "recent" kernel?
    > >> (Which could be quite a pain but its doable).

    >
    > If you don't keep on top of kernel upgrades, it'll bite you in the ass
    > eventually. How old's your kernel, anyway? You should be using 2.6
    > now.


    It's 2.6.11 but I know that for "recent" hardware it's sometimes
    needed to run "the latest of the latest"


    > >> Backups needs to be done unattended. What would you recommend?

    >
    > SCSI card + DDS-4 tape drive? 20G per medium, supported with little
    > hassle, figure about $250 for the drive and $50 for the card. Media are
    > about $5 or $6 per tape. You'll need a cleaning tape, and you'll want
    > to clean the drive every week. Back up with tar or amanda or cpio or
    > whatever. Tapes are sequential, so restoring 1 file from tape will be
    > more annoying than restoring 1 file from a DVD.


    This may be an option but I'm worried that if we grow just a tiny
    little
    bit faster this would only be a "one year" solution. Which isn't bad
    (especially for the price you're giving).


    > > There is no mention of Linux on Sony's website and none of the reviews
    > > on Newegg mention it, so it doesn't look good.

    >
    > You should know by now that manufacturers generally don't have a clue.
    > The dvd+rw-tools source tarball mentions BD-R in a few places, so I'd
    > assume that preliminary work has already been done. It'd surprise me if
    > they changed things greatly from the MMC-3 standard. The BD-R drives
    > and media that I've seen in the local Worst Buy are *expensive* though.
    > $600 for a drive, $20 for a 25G medium. Sure, it's random-access, but
    > it's also years away from being at a decent price point. HTH anyway,


    Sidenote but the Sony one can be found for $750 apparently and is
    supposed to support 50G medium. Haven't checked the price of
    these though.

    Thanks to all for your answer, now I'll Google some more on the
    various
    "tape" options...

    Driss




  8. Re: recommandations for backup solution

    On May 15, 1:08 am, markhob...@hotpop.deletethisbit.com (Mark Hobley)
    wrote:
    > neune...@yahoo.fr wrote:
    > > So I don't need to backup that much data but it's
    > > not fitting a single DVD anymore.

    >
    > What about USB memory sticks?


    Now that would solve the "physical space" problem

    At least if they keep making 20 GB stick the size of the 4 GB one
    I've got here.

    It *could* be an option if there were reasonnably priced 20 GB stick.

    I guess I'll wait some more (probably with tapes) then hope that
    memory stick size grows bigger than our data (which will probably
    be the case as we're not following Moore's law


    > Hopefully as your data grows, so will the capacity of new sticks.






  9. Re: recommandations for backup solution

    neuneudr@yahoo.fr writes:

    > I don't like the idea of backing up to a removable
    > HD as I don't see myself giving the boss one HD
    > to store at the bank per week.


    I don't see what the problem is. You can get laptop disk drives that run on
    USB power, and get a few and rotate them. Use a label maker to indicate when
    the last backup was. Say you keep 4 in a bank vault, when your boss puts in
    the 5th, he takes out the oldest, and puts that in the stack to be written to.
    I do this with my photo backups, where I have two drives, one that sits on my
    system, and the other in my safe deposit box. Every time I do stuff with
    photos, I copy to the backup disk that is on the system, and once a month or
    so, I rotate the disks. I'm using 120GB disks (but I suspect within a year, I
    may have more than 120GB), but you could use smaller capacity disks. I dunno,
    you could store at 20-30 disks in my safe deposit box without any problems.
    Now, the trick is to get identical cases for the disk, so you don't need to
    store the USB cables. If you have more data, use mobil racks with 3.5" disks.
    You won't be able to store as many in a safe deposit box, but it gives you more
    headroom.

    > So here's my problem : data is getting a little
    > too big for a DVD but it's not gigantic either (and
    > won't be anytime soon)...


    However, do you routinely check the archived DVDs to see if they are still
    readable? I used to use DVDs as my primary archiving, and found I couldn't
    read some DVDs created last year. Yeah, you may get better results by using
    special archival DVDs, but I'm not convinced anymore DVDs are worth it for long
    term storage needs.

    > Backups needs to be done "unattended" : at the
    > moment the script runs during the weekend and
    > burns the disc in the drive. The boss arrives on
    > monday, takes the DVD and put it in the safe once
    > he goes to the bank.
    >
    > What would you recommend?
    >
    > The more important aspect are "easy" to configure
    > (as in easy to be recognized by the hardware, not as
    > in "I need a shiny button to click-on") and relatively
    > cheap.
    >
    > At the moment it's costing us the price of a DVD per
    > week, which is affordable.


    --
    Michael Meissner
    email: mrmnews@the-meissners.org
    http://www.the-meissners.org

  10. Re: recommandations for backup solution

    Dances With Crows writes:
    >General Schvantzkoph staggered into the Black Sun and said:
    >> On Mon, 14 May 2007 12:38:39 -0700, neuneudr wrote:
    >>> I'm looking for a relatively easy way and relatively cheap way to do
    >>> weekly backup of around 10 Gb of data.

    ....
    >SCSI card + DDS-4 tape drive?


    Yes, that would be my second choice. First choice would be USB hard
    drives. I would not trust DVDs, BTW; a friend of mine has found them
    to become unreadable relatively fast.

    >20G per medium, supported with little
    >hassle, figure about $250 for the drive and $50 for the card.


    You might want to consider getting a second drive and a second SCSI
    card so you can still get at your tapes when the hardware fails, even
    if DDS-4 or the particular version of SCSI has gone out of fashion by
    that time.

    > Media are
    >about $5 or $6 per tape. You'll need a cleaning tape, and you'll want
    >to clean the drive every week.


    I have read many times of cases where people ruined their disk or tape
    drives by using cleaning tapes too often. I think we only use the
    cleaning tape on our drives when there's a problem. Certainly using
    the cleaning tape once per week is overkill if the tape drive is only
    used once per week.

    - anton
    --
    M. Anton Ertl Some things have to be seen to be believed
    anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at Most things have to be believed to be seen
    http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html

  11. Re: recommandations for backup solution

    On Tue, 15 May 2007 00:08:02 +0000, Mark Hobley wrote:

    > neuneudr@yahoo.fr wrote:
    >
    >> So I don't need to backup that much data but it's not fitting a single
    >> DVD anymore.

    >
    > What about USB memory sticks?
    >
    > Hopefully as your data grows, so will the capacity of new sticks.
    >
    > Mark.


    This is probably the best suggestion. A quick look at Newegg shows that
    16G USB FLASH sticks are available and they are relatively cheap, about
    $135. Get several and rotate them.

  12. Re: recommandations for backup solution

    What about putting 2 dual layer, or triple layer 9.3 gig drives.
    thats 18 gig on two platters. Haven't played with blu ray
    will wait till next year when the price drops some.
    But since it is just an ATAPI device, you only need to write to it.
    Multisession might be wierd but so what.
    Robert

    On Mon, 14 May 2007 12:38:39 -0700, neuneudr wrote:

    > Hi,
    >
    > I'm looking for a relatively easy way and relatively cheap way to do
    > weekly backup of around 10 Gb of data.
    >
    > Since three years the backups have been done using a little shell script
    > called weekly that then automagically burns a DVD.
    >
    > (daily backup are done on the network, weekly DVD backup goes in a safe
    > at the bank).
    >
    > This corresponds to the "main" server of an SME: the "data" is evolving
    > so I can't just always "diff". (I'm making daily differential backups
    > and weekly full backup to a DVD).
    >
    > Data is growing steadily, at around 3 GB per year, so it's really not
    > that much... But it doesn't fit on a DVD anymore and it's not very
    > convenient to use two DVDs (soon three, etc.).
    >
    > So I don't need to backup that much data but it's not fitting a single
    > DVD anymore.
    >
    > I was thinking of the BWU-100A (Sony DVD Blu Ray burner) that can burn
    > both DVDs and Blu Ray discs, up to 50 Gb per disc.
    >
    > Would that work under Linux ? Would I need to upgrade to a "recent"
    > kernel ? (Which could be quite a pain but its doable).
    >
    > I don't like the idea of backing up to a removable HD as I don't see
    > myself giving the boss one HD to store at the bank per week.
    >
    > So here's my problem : data is getting a little too big for a DVD but
    > it's not gigantic either (and won't be anytime soon)...
    >
    > Backups needs to be done "unattended" : at the moment the script runs
    > during the weekend and burns the disc in the drive. The boss arrives on
    > monday, takes the DVD and put it in the safe once he goes to the bank.
    >
    > What would you recommend?
    >
    > The more important aspect are "easy" to configure (as in easy to be
    > recognized by the hardware, not as in "I need a shiny button to
    > click-on") and relatively cheap.
    >
    > At the moment it's costing us the price of a DVD per week, which is
    > affordable.


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