Solid State Drives - Hardware

This is a discussion on Solid State Drives - Hardware ; Given that a lot of hardware is now coming with SSDs, and we all know Windows will wear one of those little buggers out faster than anything else, is it (already) possible to set options that will only write back ...

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Thread: Solid State Drives

  1. Solid State Drives

    Given that a lot of hardware is now coming with SSDs, and we all know
    Windows will wear one of those little buggers out faster than anything
    else, is it (already) possible to set options that will only write back
    to the disk when it needs to, preferably at shutdown only?

    I know there are some options to reduce the amount of writes to a disk,
    but how long can a write be avoided?

    Related:
    http://blog.wired.com/gadgets/2008/0...a-crams-1.html

  2. Re: Solid State Drives

    On 06/22/08 12:25 pm, Cork Soaker wrote:
    > Given that a lot of hardware is now coming with SSDs, and we all know
    > Windows will wear one of those little buggers out faster than anything
    > else, [...]
    >

    Really? "Wear out" a solid state device? Perhaps you can expound further
    how Windows manages to do such a thing?

    --
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  3. Re: Solid State Drives

    At Sun, 22 Jun 2008 13:46:45 -0700 Jim Moe wrote:

    >
    > On 06/22/08 12:25 pm, Cork Soaker wrote:
    > > Given that a lot of hardware is now coming with SSDs, and we all know
    > > Windows will wear one of those little buggers out faster than anything
    > > else, [...]
    > >

    > Really? "Wear out" a solid state device? Perhaps you can expound further
    > how Windows manages to do such a thing?


    If the "Solid State Drive" is implemented with an EEPROM, then it is
    possible -- EEPROMs have a limited number of re-write cycles.

    >


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  4. Re: Solid State Drives

    Robert Heller wrote:
    > At Sun, 22 Jun 2008 13:46:45 -0700 Jim Moe wrote:
    >
    >>
    >> On 06/22/08 12:25 pm, Cork Soaker wrote:
    >> > Given that a lot of hardware is now coming with SSDs, and we all know
    >> > Windows will wear one of those little buggers out faster than anything
    >> > else, [...]
    >> >

    >> Really? "Wear out" a solid state device? Perhaps you can expound further
    >> how Windows manages to do such a thing?

    >
    > If the "Solid State Drive" is implemented with an EEPROM, then it is
    > possible -- EEPROMs have a limited number of re-write cycles.


    As do "FLASH" rom. Sometimes as low as 100,000 writes.
    Better not make a swap partition or swap file on those things...

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    | in | get out the puncture repair kit!" |
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  5. Re: Solid State Drives

    Andrew Halliwell writes:

    > Robert Heller wrote:
    >> At Sun, 22 Jun 2008 13:46:45 -0700 Jim Moe wrote:
    >>
    >>>
    >>> On 06/22/08 12:25 pm, Cork Soaker wrote:
    >>> > Given that a lot of hardware is now coming with SSDs, and we all know
    >>> > Windows will wear one of those little buggers out faster than anything
    >>> > else, [...]
    >>> >
    >>> Really? "Wear out" a solid state device? Perhaps you can expound further
    >>> how Windows manages to do such a thing?

    >>
    >> If the "Solid State Drive" is implemented with an EEPROM, then it is
    >> possible -- EEPROMs have a limited number of re-write cycles.

    >
    > As do "FLASH" rom. Sometimes as low as 100,000 writes.
    > Better not make a swap partition or swap file on those things...


    A flash device without a wear-levelling controller will wear out in a
    very short time if used with a normal filesystem. Filesystems like
    jffs have wear-levelling built in, so they are suitable for such
    devices. I would assume that flash-based storage devices intended as
    hard drive replacements have suitable controllers.

    --
    Måns Rullgård
    mans@mansr.com

  6. Re: Solid State Drives

    I demand that Cork Soaker may or may not have written...

    > Given that a lot of hardware is now coming with SSDs, and we all know
    > Windows will wear one of those little buggers out faster than anything
    > else, is it (already) possible to set options that will only write back
    > to the disk when it needs to, preferably at shutdown only?


    # echo 1 >/proc/sys/vm/laptop_mode

    http://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/laptops/

    > I know there are some options to reduce the amount of writes to a disk,
    > but how long can a write be avoided?


    At best, for as long as there's memory available in which to buffer the data.

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    Man and wife make one fool.

  7. Re: Solid State Drives

    In article ,
    Cork Soaker wrote:
    > Given that a lot of hardware is now coming with SSDs, and we all know
    > Windows will wear one of those little buggers out faster than anything
    > else, is it (already) possible to set options that will only write back
    > to the disk when it needs to, preferably at shutdown only?


    If that's on, and you crash, you're hosed.

    --
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    > A: It's annoying as hell
    > Q: Why do most people hate top-posting? -- Lots42 The Library Avenger

    http://www.fscked.co.uk/writing/top-posting-cuss.html

  8. Re: Solid State Drives

    Måns Rullgård wrote:
    > A flash device without a wear-levelling controller will wear out in a
    > very short time if used with a normal filesystem. Filesystems like
    > jffs have wear-levelling built in, so they are suitable for such
    > devices. I would assume that flash-based storage devices intended as
    > hard drive replacements have suitable controllers.


    Even if the controllers do spread the load across as much of the FLASH as
    possible, put a swap on there and it'll be worn out in less than a year,
    most likely.
    --
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    | | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
    | Andrew Halliwell BSc | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
    | in |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
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  9. Re: Solid State Drives

    On 2008-06-23, Måns Rullgård wrote:
    > Andrew Halliwell writes:
    >
    >> Robert Heller wrote:
    >>> At Sun, 22 Jun 2008 13:46:45 -0700 Jim Moe wrote:
    >>>
    >>>>
    >>>> On 06/22/08 12:25 pm, Cork Soaker wrote:
    >>>> > Given that a lot of hardware is now coming with SSDs, and we all know
    >>>> > Windows will wear one of those little buggers out faster than anything
    >>>> > else, [...]
    >>>> >
    >>>> Really? "Wear out" a solid state device? Perhaps you can expound further
    >>>> how Windows manages to do such a thing?
    >>>
    >>> If the "Solid State Drive" is implemented with an EEPROM, then it is
    >>> possible -- EEPROMs have a limited number of re-write cycles.

    >>
    >> As do "FLASH" rom. Sometimes as low as 100,000 writes.
    >> Better not make a swap partition or swap file on those things...

    >
    > A flash device without a wear-levelling controller will wear out in a
    > very short time if used with a normal filesystem. Filesystems like
    > jffs have wear-levelling built in, so they are suitable for such
    > devices. I would assume that flash-based storage devices intended as
    > hard drive replacements have suitable controllers.
    >


    I believe that all "SSDs" have wear leveling built in. I am waiting
    for their price to come down and am very anxious ot use them,
    especially for databases.
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  10. Re: Solid State Drives

    Jim Moe wrote:
    > On 06/22/08 12:25 pm, Cork Soaker wrote:
    >> Given that a lot of hardware is now coming with SSDs, and we all know
    >> Windows will wear one of those little buggers out faster than anything
    >> else, [...]
    >>

    > Really? "Wear out" a solid state device? Perhaps you can expound further
    > how Windows manages to do such a thing?
    >



    You don't know??

  11. Re: Solid State Drives

    Hactar wrote:
    > In article ,
    > Cork Soaker wrote:
    >> Given that a lot of hardware is now coming with SSDs, and we all know
    >> Windows will wear one of those little buggers out faster than anything
    >> else, is it (already) possible to set options that will only write back
    >> to the disk when it needs to, preferably at shutdown only?

    >
    > If that's on, and you crash, you're hosed.
    >


    Yes true, but Linux (Ubuntu for me) seems stable enough. :-)

    If you're saving documents, I would expect it to save the file directly
    to the disk, so a crash should only really lose settings. That's the
    theory anyway....

  12. Re: Solid State Drives

    Andrew Halliwell wrote:
    > Robert Heller wrote:
    >> At Sun, 22 Jun 2008 13:46:45 -0700 Jim Moe wrote:
    >>
    >>> On 06/22/08 12:25 pm, Cork Soaker wrote:
    >>>> Given that a lot of hardware is now coming with SSDs, and we all know
    >>>> Windows will wear one of those little buggers out faster than anything
    >>>> else, [...]
    >>>>
    >>> Really? "Wear out" a solid state device? Perhaps you can expound further
    >>> how Windows manages to do such a thing?

    >> If the "Solid State Drive" is implemented with an EEPROM, then it is
    >> possible -- EEPROMs have a limited number of re-write cycles.

    >
    > As do "FLASH" rom. Sometimes as low as 100,000 writes.
    > Better not make a swap partition or swap file on those things...


    Note that "solid state drive" can, and sometimes does, also mean battery
    backed ram.

  13. Re: Solid State Drives

    Andrew Halliwell wrote:
    > Måns Rullgård wrote:
    >> A flash device without a wear-levelling controller will wear out in a
    >> very short time if used with a normal filesystem. Filesystems like
    >> jffs have wear-levelling built in, so they are suitable for such
    >> devices. I would assume that flash-based storage devices intended as
    >> hard drive replacements have suitable controllers.

    >
    > Even if the controllers do spread the load across as much of the FLASH as
    > possible, put a swap on there and it'll be worn out in less than a year,
    > most likely.


    I've been using 2/4GB Flash Disk-on-Module drives for the OS
    installation in servers for a few years now and not had any problems.
    They're not the quickest things in the world, but most bits of the OS
    that are needed regularly get cached in RAM anyway. I also very rarely
    see much use of swap these days, even on machines that are heavily loaded.

    Just acquired a SATA SSD to try out. Should be a bit quicker than the DoM's.

    Matthew

  14. Re: Solid State Drives

    In comp.os.linux.hardware Ignoramus31759 wrote:
    | On 2008-06-23, M?ns Rullg?rd wrote:
    |> Andrew Halliwell writes:
    |>
    |>> Robert Heller wrote:
    |>>> At Sun, 22 Jun 2008 13:46:45 -0700 Jim Moe wrote:
    |>>>
    |>>>>
    |>>>> On 06/22/08 12:25 pm, Cork Soaker wrote:
    |>>>> > Given that a lot of hardware is now coming with SSDs, and we all know
    |>>>> > Windows will wear one of those little buggers out faster than anything
    |>>>> > else, [...]
    |>>>> >
    |>>>> Really? "Wear out" a solid state device? Perhaps you can expound further
    |>>>> how Windows manages to do such a thing?
    |>>>
    |>>> If the "Solid State Drive" is implemented with an EEPROM, then it is
    |>>> possible -- EEPROMs have a limited number of re-write cycles.
    |>>
    |>> As do "FLASH" rom. Sometimes as low as 100,000 writes.
    |>> Better not make a swap partition or swap file on those things...
    |>
    |> A flash device without a wear-levelling controller will wear out in a
    |> very short time if used with a normal filesystem. Filesystems like
    |> jffs have wear-levelling built in, so they are suitable for such
    |> devices. I would assume that flash-based storage devices intended as
    |> hard drive replacements have suitable controllers.
    |>
    |
    | I believe that all "SSDs" have wear leveling built in. I am waiting
    | for their price to come down and am very anxious ot use them,
    | especially for databases.

    Just because there is wear leveling does not mean they are immune to wearing
    out. What wear leveling does is spread the wear out among other segments
    But the segments on a flash device can be fairly large as the flash devices
    get larger. The unit of wear leveling will be the erase segment size. What
    is important to note is that only a free queue of available segments gets to
    participate. Segments that already have data will not be erased. And the
    number of additional segments that are not part of the addressable device are
    not all that many. So writing over one small space many times spreads the
    wear over just a small portion of the whole flash device. Writing over larger
    areas increases the spread by the area increase.

    If you are really going to write a lot, an extra layer of wear leveling might
    help. The effect it will have is decreasing the available space and increasing
    the available free queue. That would be doing JFFS2 over a device that already
    has hardware wear leveling.

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