ISO advice re Jornada 720 and comparable handhelds - Handheld

This is a discussion on ISO advice re Jornada 720 and comparable handhelds - Handheld ; I'm considering a Jornada 720, but comments on this site have raised some concerns. I would like a handheld with a keyboard and the largest screen possible—the typical handheld screen is not adequate for my needs. Does anyone have any ...

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Thread: ISO advice re Jornada 720 and comparable handhelds

  1. ISO advice re Jornada 720 and comparable handhelds

    I'm considering a Jornada 720, but comments on this site have raised
    some concerns. I would like a handheld with a keyboard and the
    largest screen possible—the typical handheld screen is not adequate
    for my needs. Does anyone have any advice about the Jornada 680,
    which seems to have a better OS than the 720? Is the NEC Mobilpro
    superior? Price is a consideration--I will probably seek a used
    model. Although I've had a pc in my home since 1984, I'm new to the
    handheld devices. Thank you for any guidance.

  2. Re: ISO advice re Jornada 720 and comparable handhelds

    >Does anyone have any advice about the Jornada 680,
    >which seems to have a better OS than the 720? Is the NEC Mobilpro
    >superior? Price is a consideration--I will probably seek a used
    >model.


    -----------------------------------------------------------
    The 720 OS is far superior to the 680's, faster and less prone to hangups.
    Ditto for the Jornada 728, with a bit more memory and a better battery but not
    faster than the 720.

    The Mobilepros are somewhat unwieldly, slower than the 720, except for the
    latest one, the Mobilepro 900. Even the 790 is not as quick as the Jornada 720.
    Also, their screens, while being larger, do not hold any more information than
    the 720 screen. The characters are larger and easier to read from a distance
    but, in my opinion not as well defined.

    All these machines are perfectly useless for web surfing, slow, incomplete,
    immature, with small screens. They're OK for email, I suppose.

    You might want to look into Psions. Their OS is rock solid and stable and full
    of features, far superior to any of the Windows CE versions. The series 7 and
    the Netbook are large machines with wonderfull screens and are the fastest
    around. On the other hand, they do have some hardware problems.



    Bob G

  3. Re: ISO advice re Jornada 720 and comparable handhelds

    bobjames27@aol.com (Bob G) wrote in message news:<20040104171909.11386.00002291@mb-m11.aol.com>...
    > >Does anyone have any advice about the Jornada 680,
    > >which seems to have a better OS than the 720? Is the NEC Mobilpro
    > >superior? Price is a consideration--I will probably seek a used
    > >model.

    >
    > -----------------------------------------------------------
    > The 720 OS is far superior to the 680's, faster and less prone to hangups.
    > Ditto for the Jornada 728, with a bit more memory and a better battery but not
    > faster than the 720.
    >
    > The Mobilepros are somewhat unwieldly, slower than the 720, except for the
    > latest one, the Mobilepro 900. Even the 790 is not as quick as the Jornada 720.
    > Also, their screens, while being larger, do not hold any more information than
    > the 720 screen. The characters are larger and easier to read from a distance
    > but, in my opinion not as well defined.
    >
    > All these machines are perfectly useless for web surfing, slow, incomplete,
    > immature, with small screens. They're OK for email, I suppose.
    >
    > You might want to look into Psions. Their OS is rock solid and stable and full
    > of features, far superior to any of the Windows CE versions. The series 7 and
    > the Netbook are large machines with wonderfull screens and are the fastest
    > around. On the other hand, they do have some hardware problems.
    >
    >
    >
    > Bob G


    Thanks, Bob, I'll look into the Psions before I make a decision. Will
    the Psion synch with my HP laptop and/or the office pc? Bridget

  4. Re: ISO advice re Jornada 720 and comparable handhelds

    Will
    >the Psion synch with my HP laptop and/or the office pc?


    It will.
    Bob G

  5. Re: ISO advice re Jornada 720 and comparable handhelds

    Good day,

    > The Mobilepros are somewhat unwieldly, slower than the 720, except for the
    > latest one, the Mobilepro 900. Even the 790 is not as quick as the Jornada 720.
    > Also, their screens, while being larger, do not hold any more information than
    > the 720 screen. The characters are larger and easier to read from a distance
    > but, in my opinion not as well defined.


    The MobilePros are necessarily larger as they have a larger keyboard
    (around the 90% full size which means you can easily touch type). The
    Jornada 680/690/720/728 have a smaller keyboard (around 75% full size)
    which means unless you have really small hands, you won't be able to
    touchtype.

    > All these machines are perfectly useless for web surfing, slow, incomplete,
    > immature, with small screens. They're OK for email, I suppose.
    >
    > You might want to look into Psions. Their OS is rock solid and stable and full
    > of features, far superior to any of the Windows CE versions. The series 7 and
    > the Netbook are large machines with wonderfull screens and are the fastest
    > around. On the other hand, they do have some hardware problems.


    I would counter that the Psion units are even worse for Web browsing.
    Browsing the web with H/PC Pro units (i.e., J680/690 and MobilePro
    770/780) is slow but passable (Pocket Internet Explorer is similar in
    capability to IE3). The experience is probably somewhat better on the
    HPC2000 units (i.e., J720/8 and MobilePro 790/900) as their version of
    Pocket Internet Explorer is similar in capability to IE4.

    As for comparisons with the "OS" it depends what features you are after
    and what is important to you. None of these mobile devices have as good
    hardware support as normal PCs but I would suggest that Windows CE has
    still much better 3rd party hardware support (for example, modems,
    ethernet cards, wireless LAN cards) than the Psion units. You are much
    more likely to be actually USING the world wide web and browsing on a
    Windows CE device than with a Psion unit.

    Similarly, printing support is important to me. IMHO, printing support
    with the Psion units is woeful. The Windows CE units come with PCL3
    compatible drivers for inkjet and laser (essentially, it should work
    with most HP printers).

    PC connectivity is also important for me and again in this score, the
    Windows CE platform wins hands down.

    As for the Series 7 and Netbook, they are no faster (indeed SLOWER) than
    the comparable Windows CE devices. If you want something with the same
    form factor as the Series 7/Netbook, you are looking at the Jornada 820.
    If you give me a choice between a Netbook and a J820, I'll take the
    J820 anyday.

    Have a look at the review here: http://www.foxpop.co.uk/ There are
    several times when it's authors and reviewers have pitched a Psion unit
    and a comparable Windows CE device head to head. The Windows CE device
    usually comes ahead in terms of usability/productivity -- at least, in
    how the author used their mobile device.

    Regards,
    Michael Tam

    -------------------------------------
    Michael Tam
    e-mail: vitualis (at) michaeltam.com
    website: http://www.michaeltam.com

  6. Re: ISO advice re Jornada 720 and comparable handhelds

    >The MobilePros are necessarily larger as they have a larger keyboard
    >(around the 90% full size which means you can easily touch type). The
    >Jornada 680/690/720/728 have a smaller keyboard (around 75% full size)
    >which means unless you have really small hands, you won't be able to
    >touchtype.

    ------------------------------------------------------------
    HP makes (or used to make) a wonderful external keyboard for the Jornada
    600/700 series. It's very light and portable and a work of art. You can still
    find them on eBay for under $100.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    >PC connectivity is also important for me and again in this score, the
    >Windows CE platform wins hands down.
    >---------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Connectivity is more automatic and a bit faster with Windows CE, I agree.
    However, PsiWin for Psions has a featured called "Copy Anywhere" which is the
    cat's meow. It allows copying and pasting one single character or entire pages
    from your Psion to your PC and viceversa, instead of having to transfer entire
    files.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    >If you want something with the same
    >form factor as the Series 7/Netbook, you are looking at the Jornada 820.
    > If you give me a choice between a Netbook and a J820, I'll take the
    >J820 anyday.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------
    The Netbook is the fastest machine around, approaching the speed of a regular
    PC opening applications and files, cutting and pasting, and many other
    functions. The Jornada 820 has an older version of Windows CE and is
    particularly slow, as slow as the 680. On top of that, the screen is unevenly
    illuminated and it's not touch-type, instead it has a rather akward touch pad.
    Right now you can pick one up on eBay for little over $100 whereas a Netbook
    still commands $500 or more.There's absolutely no comparison.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Bob G

  7. Re: ISO advice re Jornada 720 and comparable handhelds

    On Mon, 05 Jan 2004 16:00:00 +1100, Michael Tam
    wrote:

    >Similarly, printing support is important to me. IMHO, printing support
    >with the Psion units is woeful. The Windows CE units come with PCL3
    >compatible drivers for inkjet and laser (essentially, it should work
    >with most HP printers).


    The default Psion printer drives are
    Canon Bubble Jet (BJ mode)
    Canon Bubble Jet (LQ mode)
    Citizen PN60 portable ink jet
    Epson LQ-860
    HP Deskjet 340
    HP Deskjet 660C
    HP Laser Jet 3
    HP Laser Jet 4
    Fax (all fonts available)
    General, for really dumb text printers

    Via Windows computer and included PsiWin synchronising package,
    any Windows supported printer.

    Additional freeware printer drivers include
    Canon BJC80 and similar (included because they have IrDA)
    Canon EXtended mode (for landscape printing)
    HP PCL5 and LaserJet
    Postscript and Postscript (35)

    If you want more details on printer drives, font utilities and
    the like, check http://www.ericlindsay.com/epoc/siprint5.htm

    >PC connectivity is also important for me and again in this score, the
    >Windows CE platform wins hands down.


    The standard Psion PsiWin utility for Windows synchronises
    between Psion Agenda plus Psion Contacts and Microsoft Outlook 97
    and 98, or Schedule 7 if still using Windows 95. Also Lotus
    SmartSuite 3, 4, and 97, Lotus Organiser, and ccMail.

    PsiWin converts between the Psion and Microsoft Works, MS Word 2,
    6, 7, 8 (95 and 97), and RTF, Excel 4, 5, 95, 97, FoxPro, MS
    Access, Windows WAV sounds, Windows bitmap graphics. Lotus 123,
    and AmiPro (from Lotus SmartSuite 3, 4, 97). Corel QuattroPro
    5 to 8, and Word Perfect 5 to 8. Also convert data to dBase,
    CSV.

    More on Psion synchronising and conversion here
    http://www.ericlindsay.com/epoc/sisync5.htm

    >As for the Series 7 and Netbook, they are no faster (indeed SLOWER) than
    >the comparable Windows CE devices.


    Clock in the Psion is slower than modern Windows CE devices
    (NetBook is 190 MHz), however I don't know which of the older,
    keyboard Windows CE devices are substantially quicker. Given
    the Psion applications were originally designed to work on an 18
    MHz ARM, they usually perform rather well on anything faster than
    18 MHz.

    >If you want something with the same
    >form factor as the Series 7/Netbook, you are looking at the Jornada 820.
    > If you give me a choice between a Netbook and a J820, I'll take the
    >J820 anyday.


    I don't have experience with the Jornada, but I've had good,
    reliable results (for what I do) with the Psion 7.

    Given the way this topic seems to have run away into a feature
    comparison, I think it would be worthwhile at this point to ask
    the original poster just exactly what she wants to do with a
    handheld device. Is it web vierwing? It is text entry? Is is
    massive databases. Different devices have different strengths.

    --
    Eric Lindsay http://www.ericlindsay.com/guff
    Airlie Beach Qld Australia - Great Barrier Reef entry
    Psion & Epoc site http://www.ericlindsay.com/epoc
    Bait for spammers: root@localhost postmaster@localhost
    admin@localhost abuse@localhost postmaster@127.0.0.1

  8. Re: ISO advice re Jornada 720 and comparable handhelds

    Good day,

    > The default Psion printer drives are
    > Canon Bubble Jet (BJ mode)
    > Canon Bubble Jet (LQ mode)
    > Citizen PN60 portable ink jet
    > Epson LQ-860
    > HP Deskjet 340
    > HP Deskjet 660C
    > HP Laser Jet 3
    > HP Laser Jet 4
    > Fax (all fonts available)
    > General, for really dumb text printers
    >
    > Via Windows computer and included PsiWin synchronising package,
    > any Windows supported printer.


    Yes, but the printing is not quite like on Windows CE. On Windows CE,
    the printing experience is pretty much just like on the desktop. You
    can use whatever fonts you want and if the printer is supported, it just
    comes out "right".

    If you use Westtek's JETCET drivers, you can print to any printer that
    supports PCL3, the Epson standard, Postscript plus a host of Canon
    printers .... and you can printer in full colour as well.

    Also, IMHO, printing through the synchronisation software somewhat
    defeats the purpose of an "independent" device. Not only do you need to
    install the software (which may not be possible if you want to print on
    site), you might as well have just shuttled the file over to PC and
    printed it directly from the PC.

    >>As for the Series 7 and Netbook, they are no faster (indeed SLOWER) than
    >>the comparable Windows CE devices.

    >
    >
    > Clock in the Psion is slower than modern Windows CE devices
    > (NetBook is 190 MHz), however I don't know which of the older,
    > keyboard Windows CE devices are substantially quicker. Given
    > the Psion applications were originally designed to work on an 18
    > MHz ARM, they usually perform rather well on anything faster than
    > 18 MHz.


    Yes, but remember, the Psion OS wasn't really designed for the large
    screen estate and colour either. This fact alone sucks performance (in
    the same way as I stated for the large screen H/PCs -- like the Jornada
    820, the Compaq Aero 8000 and the MobilePro 880).

    In the Foxpop article I linked to previously, the reviewer's impression
    was the for the general UI things, the Series 7 is about the same speed
    as the Jornada 820.

    >>If you want something with the same
    >>form factor as the Series 7/Netbook, you are looking at the Jornada 820.
    >> If you give me a choice between a Netbook and a J820, I'll take the
    >>J820 anyday.

    >
    >
    > I don't have experience with the Jornada, but I've had good,
    > reliable results (for what I do) with the Psion 7.
    >
    > Given the way this topic seems to have run away into a feature
    > comparison, I think it would be worthwhile at this point to ask
    > the original poster just exactly what she wants to do with a
    > handheld device. Is it web vierwing? It is text entry? Is is
    > massive databases. Different devices have different strengths.


    I agree absolutely.

    However, given the price that S7/NB still cost, I think that the answer
    is clear. There are not too many things that you can functionally do
    with a S7/NB that you can't with a H/PC -- and the H/PCs simply work
    better with the modern computing world.

    For the price of a secondhand NB (or new), you can get a secondhand (or
    new) NEC MobilePro 900. For things like performance, connectivity, web
    browsing, and modern hardware support, this is much better -- not to
    mention it is still in production and supported by NEC.

    Best regards,
    Michael Tam

    --
    -------------------------------------
    Michael Tam
    e-mail: vitualis (at) michaeltam.com
    website: http://www.michaeltam.com

  9. Re: ISO advice re Jornada 720 and comparable handhelds

    On Wed, 07 Jan 2004 17:17:01 +1100, Michael Tam
    wrote:

    >Yes, but the printing is not quite like on Windows CE. On Windows CE,
    >the printing experience is pretty much just like on the desktop. You
    >can use whatever fonts you want and if the printer is supported, it just
    >comes out "right".


    Just how many fonts does a typical Windows CE device have? On
    the Psion, printing uses any of the built in fonts. However if
    you want additional fonts, you have to specifically install them
    if you want to see results on screen.

    >If you use Westtek's JETCET drivers, you can print to any printer that
    >supports PCL3, the Epson standard, Postscript plus a host of Canon
    >printers .... and you can printer in full colour as well.


    Full colour printing sounds nice. As far as I know, none of the
    Psion printer drivers support colour, although PCL3, 4 and 5,
    plus Postscript are available. JETCET sounds like a third party
    product? Hmm, various people are customising old greyscale icons
    and so on to suit the NetBook (which unlike earlier models had
    colour). Maybe we need a colour printer driver as well.

    When I needed more extensive printing facilities from my Psion (I
    needed to change between single column and multiple column
    outputs in a recurring report, and couldn't figure any way to do
    that short of embedding spreadsheet columns in the word
    processor) I had to resort to using a Postscript preprocessor,
    and bypassing the printer drivers (IrDA transfer via the Comms
    application) to beam to the printer IrDA. I was lucky in having a
    Postscript printer both at home and at the office, and using the
    IrDA meant I didn't have to carry a printer cable.

    >Also, IMHO, printing through the synchronisation software somewhat
    >defeats the purpose of an "independent" device.


    Well, yes, but the time you use printing via your PC is when you
    are at home or in the office. After all, you tend to connect
    most PDAs to your own PC from time to time. It is an additional
    printing facility, not the only one.

    >In the Foxpop article I linked to previously, the reviewer's impression
    >was the for the general UI things, the Series 7 is about the same speed
    >as the Jornada 820.


    That seems reasonable. As you say, large displays and colour suck
    cycles. I get the impression, based on the 36 MHz Psion 5mx and
    the faster clocked Psion 7 that the compile was done for the ARM
    running only with the older version of the CPU. That is, not all
    the facilities of the updated ARM in the Psion 7 were used.

    >However, given the price that S7/NB still cost, I think that the answer
    >is clear. There are not too many things that you can functionally do
    >with a S7/NB that you can't with a H/PC -- and the H/PCs simply work
    >better with the modern computing world.


    Hmm, can a H/PC run out of the box a database that is larger than
    available memory, and include within the database large word
    processor files, photos, sound and music files, and interactive
    calculators and spreadsheets? I can do that on a Psion without
    even adding any other software. Great for doing your own topic
    specific encyclopedias.

    --
    Eric Lindsay http://www.ericlindsay.com/guff
    Airlie Beach Qld Australia - Great Barrier Reef entry
    Psion & Epoc site http://www.ericlindsay.com/epoc
    Bait for spammers: root@localhost postmaster@localhost
    admin@localhost abuse@localhost postmaster@127.0.0.1

  10. Re: ISO advice re Jornada 720 and comparable handhelds

    Good day,

    > Just how many fonts does a typical Windows CE device have? On
    > the Psion, printing uses any of the built in fonts. However if
    > you want additional fonts, you have to specifically install them
    > if you want to see results on screen.


    It comes with about 5 or 6 default fonts -- but the important thing is that you
    can use ANY true type font on the Handheld PC natively. The default fonts are
    the most commonly used Windows ones including: Times New Roman, Arial, Tahoma,
    Wingdings, Symbol which are exactly equivalent to the Windows versions (minus
    some extended symbols).

    Thus, if I like using a particular font with my documents, I can simply copy
    over the Windows TTF without any conversion and it will work exactly as is on
    the device.

    Similarly, if I print using that font, it will look exactly as printing via
    Windows.

    Font uniformity is a great feature of Windows CE and has been around since
    Windows CE 2.0. Prior to Windows CE 2.0 (i.e., Wndows CE 1.0), TTFs needed to
    be converted to a smaller device format -- similar to how the Psion works?

    > Hmm, can a H/PC run out of the box a database that is larger than
    > available memory, and include within the database large word
    > processor files, photos, sound and music files, and interactive
    > calculators and spreadsheets? I can do that on a Psion without
    > even adding any other software. Great for doing your own topic
    > specific encyclopedias.


    Database funtions are a strength of the Psion units and not in Windows CE
    devices.

    Best regards.

    ------------------------
    Michael Tam
    email: vitualis (at) michaeltam.com
    webpage: http://www.michaeltam.com

  11. Re: ISO advice re Jornada 720 and comparable handhelds

    On 9 Jan 2004 14:16:27 +1100, Michael Tam
    wrote:

    >It comes with about 5 or 6 default fonts -- but the important thing is that you
    >can use ANY true type font on the Handheld PC natively.

    ....
    >Thus, if I like using a particular font with my documents, I can simply copy
    >over the Windows TTF without any conversion and it will work exactly as is on
    >the device.
    >
    >Similarly, if I print using that font, it will look exactly as printing via
    >Windows.
    >
    >Font uniformity is a great feature of Windows CE and has been around since
    >Windows CE 2.0. Prior to Windows CE 2.0 (i.e., Wndows CE 1.0), TTFs needed to
    >be converted to a smaller device format -- similar to how the Psion works?


    Fonts can be changed in Epoc 32 systems, although adding new
    fonts is not intuitive without using additional programs like
    Font Machine by Sander van der Wal to install additional Adobe
    Type 1 and True Type fonts on a Psion. Once Font Machine is
    installed you will have a Fonts icon in your Control Panel System
    display. You can delete font files after you install the fonts.
    You can preview fonts. Font Machine supports Epoc .grd fonts
    (naturally), but also Abobe bitmap fonts (.pfa, .pfb), Windows
    bitmap fonts (.fon, .fnt), True Type fonts (.ttf, .ttc) and
    OpenFonts. Just transfer any of these font types from your PC to
    your Psion. Open the Font Machine Fonts dialog, and it will
    install the font. Naturally your printer has to support the
    font, so use the Print to Fax settings (which permits all fonts)
    in your file. For printing, use Print to PC from EpocConnect, or
    if you have an appropriate printer connected, use Andrew
    Johnson's printer drivers.

    --
    Eric Lindsay http://www.ericlindsay.com/guff
    Airlie Beach Qld Australia - Great Barrier Reef entry
    Psion & Epoc site http://www.ericlindsay.com/epoc
    Bait for spammers: root@localhost postmaster@localhost
    admin@localhost abuse@localhost postmaster@127.0.0.1

  12. Re: ISO advice re Jornada 720 and comparable handhelds

    >...additional programs like
    >Font Machine by Sander van der Wal...


    If you have experience with this software, can you tell me how small a font can
    be used with the Revo screen and still have a legible line? Thanks!



    Bob G

  13. Re: ISO advice re Jornada 720 and comparable handhelds

    Avoid the Jornada 720 at all costs. It's heavy, bulky, and you will
    learn to hate the clamshell. It is too big for any pocket. Software
    developed for it is a risky install. The keyboard is too small for
    men's hands. Take a good look at the HP web site. they have
    abandoned the jornada line and tech support is "chancy". Battery life
    is lousy. I would probably trade mine for a sony clie th55 if I could
    find someone stupid enough to do so. The so called cradle is a joke.
    I've gone thru 3 of them and reefuse to use one. The contact pins are
    spring loaded and jam into the depressed position within a few
    insertions. Overall conclusion: one of the worst purchases of my life
    & I cannot say enough "bad" about it.P.S. the screen is unusable in
    bright daylight. It's ruggedly built. i've dropped mine several
    times & have had the screen replaced once. damned expensive.
    Good luck & choose carefully.

    On 4 Jan 2004 12:20:24 -0800, bridgetab@aol.com (Bridget) wrote:

    >I'm considering a Jornada 720, but comments on this site have raised
    >some concerns. I would like a handheld with a keyboard and the
    >largest screen possible—the typical handheld screen is not adequate
    >for my needs. Does anyone have any advice about the Jornada 680,
    >which seems to have a better OS than the 720? Is the NEC Mobilpro
    >superior? Price is a consideration--I will probably seek a used
    >model. Although I've had a pc in my home since 1984, I'm new to the
    >handheld devices. Thank you for any guidance.



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