On Sun, 09 Nov 2003 04:54:17 GMT, Pat wrote:

>
> "Wayne" wrote in message
> newsprybah3i7gcp3q2@news.optusnet.com.au...
>
> The reason why I believe that will not work is because those hardware
> platforms are too slow for a contemporary Java. If you don't believe me,
> which would make you part of the majority around here, just boogie on
> over
> to Sun and dig around or flat out ask them what resources are required to
> run today's Java code.

Yes, I am saying make it an optional install component for people with
machines powerfull enough to run it (a compiling version will run on more
machines). The Java Mobile is supposed to be a subset of Personal Java,
but if it is substantially different then yes it will have to be
rewritten. The Java I am advocating though is the desktop/web plug in
which I thought was based on Personal Java.

>
> Better still, run GEOS 1.0 on a 8086 and its not bad. Now run 1.2, and it
> runs just ok, but not as quick as 1.0. Next, the Geos 2.x versions are a
> bad
> fit for the 8086 and the new GEOS 3 code base is a complete no go.

I didn't realise the change was so substantial before NewDeal.

>
>> I do have an easy, practical and almost surefire way for BreadBox to
>> make
> much profit and pick up may more users. I would like to state it
> publically
> here, but > if I did somebody else could easily beat them to it with a
> simular product. If anybody at Breadbox is listening contact me.
>
> This I want to hear. Give me a hint.
>

Unfortunately not, I'm taking up John's invitation and going to contact
Breadbox, but unfortunately all sorts of things have broken loose around
here at the moment and I'll have to handle those first.

Thanks

Wayne.


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"Wayne" wrote in message
newspryhm7mrbgcp3q2@news.optusnet.com.au...
>
> Yes, I am saying make it an optional install component for people with
> machines powerfull enough to run it (a compiling version will run on more
> machines). The Java Mobile is supposed to be a subset of Personal Java,
> but if it is substantially different then yes it will have to be
> rewritten. The Java I am advocating though is the desktop/web plug in
> which I thought was based on Personal Java.

Didn't the developers of GEOS/PJ quit Geoworks and switch to Openwave? Too
bad, the original development cost was kind of a heavy hit on Geoworks'
bottom line. I suppose that BBX could hire those guys away from Openwave.
Make them an offer they can't refuse. All it takes is cash.

http://www.openwave.com/us/mobile_overview/

Meanwhile, the Geoworks web site is STILL UNDER CONSRUCTION. ;-)

> I didn't realise the change was so substantial before NewDeal.

I can remember running GEOS 1.0 on an IBM XT with a small hard drive. It
impressed me. Each time a new GEOS version was released, I would make time
to satisfy my curiousity and run it on that same XT. Even GEOS 1.2 felt a
tad slow on the XT, and I kind of smiled as I knew that the XT was really
permanently married to GEOS 1.0. Needless to say, successive releases of
GEOS were not worth running on the XT.

As you would guess, each successive release of GEOS also ran slower on the
rest of the family of low end PCs (286 - 486). Perceiving that software runs
slower does not mean its unacceptably slow to use. It just means that GEOS,
like Windows and Linux, gets more code added to every new release. Please
run New Deal or BBX Ensemble on a 8086 or 286. Not even BBX recommends it.

http://www.sun2k.com/Software%20-%20...equirement.htm

I would consider the real minimum to be a rev'd up 386 or 486. Also, use an
earlier GEOS on really old PCs, as a general rule.

> > This I want to hear. Give me a hint.
> >
>
> Unfortunately not, I'm taking up John's invitation and going to contact
> Breadbox, but unfortunately all sorts of things have broken loose around
> here at the moment and I'll have to handle those first.

Wayne, you should contact Hyubso. Odd that he hasn't posted here recently.
Oh well, he has some ideas too, and you could compare notes and come up with
some winners. Most of my ideas were based on the original GEOS software when
it had a good chance of taking off back in the 1990-1991. Geoworks did a
great job of making GEOS work on low end PCs but failed to design in upward
scaleability as faster PCs came down in price and memory princes dropped.
They had all the talent in the world to re-engineer the code to break out of
the 1MB jail. They were not proactive enough, or able to stick their heads
up out of the code and sense that it was time to prepare for the
inevitablity of going to a flat addressing model. Instead, Geoworks washed
their hands of the desktop and chased the elusive brass ring of mobile
computing, where they left a trail of being late reacting to change (eg.
GEOS-SC). Enough said! I'm not going down this road any further.

Well, all that's history now. Can't cry over spilled milk. Lets see what BBX
pulls out of their hat for 2004. I'm looking forward to the 15th year
edition of GEOS in celebration of the first release of Geoworks Ensemble
1.0. Hey, there's an idea, a 15th Anniversary Edition of GEOS Ensemble for
nostalgia.

"Pat" wrote in message
news:Nvfsb.13953$hB5.2674@nwrdny02.gnilink.net...
>
> Lets see what BBX
> pulls out of their hat for 2004. I'm looking forward to the 15th year
> edition of GEOS in celebration of the first release of Geoworks Ensemble
> 1.0. Hey, there's an idea, a 15th Anniversary Edition of GEOS Ensemble for
> nostalgia.

Yes! And BBX could place a demo version in cereal boxes! Or better yet, do
as the Stones did and make it available @ Best Buy, ONLY!

Bob wrote:

> "Pat" wrote in message
> news:Nvfsb.13953$hB5.2674@nwrdny02.gnilink.net...
>
>>Lets see what BBX
>>pulls out of their hat for 2004. I'm looking forward to the 15th year
>>edition of GEOS in celebration of the first release of Geoworks Ensemble
>>1.0. Hey, there's an idea, a 15th Anniversary Edition of GEOS Ensemble for
>>nostalgia.
>
>
> Yes! And BBX could place a demo version in cereal boxes! Or better yet, do
> as the Stones did and make it available @ Best Buy, ONLY!
>

Cereal boxes and Best Buy? How yesterday!!! How about something more
like Sharper Image or that Texas department store with the big unique
gifts in its Christmas Catalogue?!?!

John ;-)

"John Howard" wrote in message
news:vr3creokiddf92@corp.supernews.com...
> Cereal boxes and Best Buy? How yesterday!!! How about something more
> like Sharper Image or that Texas department store with the big unique
> gifts in its Christmas Catalogue?!?!
>
> John ;-)
>

$7,000,000,000 - $12,000,000,000 may be chump change to a CEO of Tyco. So I
think its not inappropriate that Breadbox should spend some of its BBX
Ensemble profits on a company LearJet to impress ex-GEOS developers to join
the resurrection team.

http://www.neimanmarcus.com/store/si...2003/p26_s.htm

I think they would be living within their means at the moment, a Lear jet
might be a bit costly unless they rentd it for the day. But yes a
ressurection team sounds nice but now for the product for them to work on?

Is it true that Opera was started by ex Geoworks emmployees? I think the
exemployees are well spread out now. You know the best thing that MS
could do would probably hire them to remake Windows (how did they ever get
a trademark on a common household item).

Wayne

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"Wayne" wrote in message
newspryjc6jj9gcp3q2@news.optusnet.com.au...
> I think they would be living within their means at the moment, a Lear jet
> might be a bit costly unless they rentd it for the day. But yes a
> ressurection team sounds nice but now for the product for them to work on?

I think you'll have to convince Breakbox to end game their other projects
and put GEOS on the front burner and then you'll have what you want.

> Is it true that Opera was started by ex Geoworks emmployees? I think the
> exemployees are well spread out now. You know the best thing that MS
> could do would probably hire them to remake Windows (how did they ever get
> a trademark on a common household item).

Some have retired or gone of have completely gotten out of computers. Most
just got another job and several were traded to Amazon.com, where they no
longer do GEOS but work on other projects.

As far a Opera is concerned, I doubt what you say is true. Perhaps you are
confusing Opera development with one person who was an early adopter of
Opera in South Africa. So long ago I ca't remember his moniker. Was it
Helmer (sp???). He was a GEOS reseller and morphed into Opera.

<< Perhaps you are confusing Opera development with one person who was an early
adopter of Opera in South Africa. So long ago I ca't remember his moniker >>

Helmar is his name & "other stuff" is now his game. :-)

Note the "missing" page in this link (listed near bottom):

http://www.argo-navis.com/missing.html

Ray

"Ray Kopczynski" wrote in message
news:20031112204417.05279.00000081@mb-m21.aol.com...
> << Perhaps you are confusing Opera development with one person who was an
early
> adopter of Opera in South Africa. So long ago I ca't remember his moniker
>>
>
> Helmar is his name & "other stuff" is now his game. :-)
>
> Note the "missing" page in this link (listed near bottom):
>
> http://www.argo-navis.com/missing.html
>
> Ray


Ohhhhhhhhhhh Yeah, good old Helmar Rudolph.

Motto: "Trust no one, believe nothing, question everything - then make up
your own mind. Do good, but don't suck up!"

You gotta love Helmar, an original thinker!!!

Helmar, what a fantastic photo gallery. I wish I could someday have an
opportunity to see those sights up close and personal.

oh pat i read your messsages here all the time.

am just too busy right now with family obligations to post much on cogm.

geos has much potential and the finest underlying structure on which ot
build reliable consukmer computing devices. geos should be the
development platform of choice in governemnts in brazil, china and india
and corporations like sony and panasonic .. why waste time on linux,
which is even more complicated than geos?

so you see, geos should have been made open source, or at least sold to
the chinese or indian governemnts, who have the $$$ resources and
manpower to throw at it, plus the DESIRE to cast off the msft ball and
chain.





Pat wrote:
>
>
>
> Wayne, you should contact Hyubso. Odd that he hasn't posted here recently.

laugh all you want but remember,it is microsoft and aol and not BBX
that have some of their software in distributed in cereal boxes




John Howard wrote:

>
> Cereal boxes and Best Buy? How yesterday!!! How about something more
> like Sharper Image or that Texas department store with the big unique
> gifts in its Christmas Catalogue?!?!
>
> John ;-)
>

"hyubso" wrote in message
news:Cnzub.30879$gG5.17062@newssvr31.news.prodigy. com...

> geos has much potential and the finest underlying structure on which ot
> build reliable consukmer computing devices.

If this were 1990, I would drink to that.

> geos should be the development platform of choice in governemnts in
brazil, china, and india
> and corporations like sony and panasonic .. why waste time on linux,
> which is even more complicated than geos?

What we once thought of as a low-cost computer seems to be a moving target.
Right now, China and India are embrassing the mainstream of computing. They
want to be all over of Linux, Windows, Unix, and grab high paying jobs for
programming and services. Regards Brazil, weren't they once the target of a
large contract from GlobalPC. This was part of the Digital Divide movement.
I haven't maintained my one contact from Brazil so I can't comment
authoritatively.

> so you see, geos should have been made open source, or at least sold to
> the chinese or indian governemnts, who have the $$$ resources and
> manpower to throw at it, plus the DESIRE to cast off the msft ball and
> chain.

What about the Swiss, Germans and Russians, with their deep knowledge of
GEOS, why haven't they created what you want? It seems that in almost 15
years of PCGEOS existence, nothing happened to make your dream come true.

Want to talk poor? How about Africa where Helmar tried to sell GEOS and
failed. Even after GEOS acquired many of the features Helmar drooled for, he
was no longer interested, having turned his back on it. Helmar didn't walk
away because GEOS is a fake OS, he no longer believed it could satisfy the
needs of his clients and Government projects. If you can convince Helmar to
make it happen, then I would be willing to change my feelings. To test your
theory, you should email him.

opps, i meant to type...

"more complicated than windows"..

sorry.




hyubso wrote:
> why waste time on linux,
> which is even more complicated than geos?
>

This is something I forgot to discuss with Breadbox, I had a contact that
was involved in a bid for a national Chinese personal computer (around 1
billion of them). Going on what he was working on, it is unlikely it will
be anywhere for comprehensive or complex as Geos. Now, in realistic
terms, with the upswing of technological integration and power, Geoworks
is very suitable (if not more). Apart from this there are third world
initiatives, one contact I made had his own integrated software package
that he wanted to use with DOS for this official third world computer.
Linux people where complaining that the group was not even considering
Linux for this computer, they obviously didn't realise that Linux was too
resource hungry and slow, and offered little benefit over Windows CE on a
cheap device. The OS my first contact could create (from experience of
what this person and other related contacts had allready created) would
have made would even have beatten GEOS for compactness and even speed.
Linux on the otherhand, in my opinion, has too much baggage and generally
leads to large embedded OS's of the type required for this. Lately things
are better but you are still moving a desktop Unix like OS down in size,
instead of starting with a compact highly efficent design. It is like
trying to make a Mini Cooper out of a Monster Truck (where Windows could
be considered a Semi), eventually you are going to have to remove and
replace so much (like wheels weight and size) it is no longer very
compatazble with the Monster truck parts list.

Lastly we come to the case of the Linux Asian government revolt, where
variouse Asian governments want a alternative OS, for Asian peoples, to MS
and Windows, which is of the greatest benefit to Geos and small OS
developers. They are looking at Linux as the basis. In reality we should
look at business, peofessional, research and government computers based on
something like Linux/Java, and home and personal computer, gadgets and
game consoles with something like Geos in them (as geos doesn't have many
high end features yet). This could be effectively argued to them, with
Asian language support and developement tools surrendered to their
cultural control. If geoworks were to want to take on the high end much
developement work would be needed unless we are talking third world
computer conditions (then the general simpler use (not much video, sound,
multimedia, 3D etc etc), and the general lack of high end use makes the
adoptoion more sensible).

One last thing needed, I have been thinking about this recently, is to
approach the US government and other countries to lobby for a mandate in
law for universal driver support standard (free or nearly free) for every
new product, and every product sold in the last 5 years, with the option
to change the universal driver system in the future as much better
aslternatives for new devices/computer architech are available. This
counteracts variouse monopoly issues and opens up proper support and
competition in the small OS market. MS should support this initative as a
good counter action to further anti-trust problems. Basically this will
lead to most manuafactures making a driver for the most relavent popular
system (i.e. Windows or Mac) and a universal driver for all others. I am
unfamiliar with what is being done in this field but it will need to be
native recompiled Virtual Engine code based. At the moment I have heard
of Sun Java Jini (I think they called it) and some Linux folks working on
a universal driver system for any OS.

What does everybody else think, is this worth pursueing, as this is the
only real avenue for homemade and small OS's, like Ensemble, to get common
generic hardware support, with Virtual Engines, like Java, as the only way
to get common generic program support. This doesn't stop these OS's from
making naturally better native drivers or programs, but it means that
users no longer have to be left out in the cold. Of course the mandate
would be designed to preclude any custom, favouring, or active input by
the leading OS vendor. If all these things are not done the leading OS
vendor could be held liable for the failure of smaller vendors to
compete. If these things are done their failure to compete could
potentially be held to be much more their own doing.


Many thanks


Wayne.



On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 03:34:11 GMT, Pat wrote:

>
> "hyubso" wrote in message
> news:Cnzub.30879$gG5.17062@newssvr31.news.prodigy. com...
>
>> geos has much potential and the finest underlying structure on which ot
>> build reliable consukmer computing devices.
>
> If this were 1990, I would drink to that.
>
>> geos should be the development platform of choice in governemnts in
> brazil, china, and india
>> and corporations like sony and panasonic .. why waste time on linux,
>> which is even more complicated than geos?
>
> What we once thought of as a low-cost computer seems to be a moving
> target.
> Right now, China and India are embrassing the mainstream of computing.
> They
> want to be all over of Linux, Windows, Unix, and grab high paying jobs
> for
> programming and services. Regards Brazil, weren't they once the target
> of a
> large contract from GlobalPC. This was part of the Digital Divide
> movement.
> I haven't maintained my one contact from Brazil so I can't comment
> authoritatively.
>
>> so you see, geos should have been made open source, or at least sold to
>> the chinese or indian governemnts, who have the $$$ resources and
>> manpower to throw at it, plus the DESIRE to cast off the msft ball and
>> chain.
>
> What about the Swiss, Germans and Russians, with their deep knowledge of
> GEOS, why haven't they created what you want? It seems that in almost 15
> years of PCGEOS existence, nothing happened to make your dream come true.
>
> Want to talk poor? How about Africa where Helmar tried to sell GEOS and
> failed. Even after GEOS acquired many of the features Helmar drooled
> for, he
> was no longer interested, having turned his back on it. Helmar didn't
> walk
> away because GEOS is a fake OS, he no longer believed it could satisfy
> the
> needs of his clients and Government projects. If you can convince Helmar
> to
> make it happen, then I would be willing to change my feelings. To test
> your
> theory, you should email him.
>
>



--
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Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/

the swiss adn germans are wealthy societies with plenty of cash ot pay
MSFT for windows licenses, along with having enough resources to waste
on tech support for windows pcs. while some will support geos,
program for it, etc, it is easier for people with $$$$ to spend $189US
for winxpPro with no spell checker.. not so easy for htose folks who
have no $189 to waste ...


russia is not so wealthy a society a dn maybe all those former eastern
block countries would be fertile soil for geos developement.. in other
words, geos could deliver an easier, more efficient and yet familiar
computing experience for lots less money spent on software licenses,
hardware purchases, adn electiricuyt o run it all, adn tech support to
keep it all running.

the theme here is geos can be THE solution for not so fabulously wealthy
societies on this planet.

not everyone on this earth can drive a gas hog hummer... some can fill
their transprotation needs with little toyotas/vws,etc...

Pat wrote:


> What about the Swiss, Germans and Russians, with their deep knowledge of
> GEOS, why haven't they created what you want? It seems that in almost 15
> years of PCGEOS existence, nothing happened to make your dream come true.
>




blah blah blah pat.. you are blaming hte wrong person... geos did not
fail for lack of usefulness it is MSFT's stanglehold on the market,
and its ability ot impose proprietary standards that stifled geos
developement.

end of story.


> Want to talk poor? How about Africa where Helmar tried to sell GEOS and
> failed. Even after GEOS acquired many of the features Helmar drooled for, he
> was no longer interested, having turned his back on it. Helmar didn't walk
> away because GEOS is a fake OS, he no longer believed it could satisfy the
> needs of his clients and Government projects. If you can convince Helmar to
> make it happen, then I would be willing to change my feelings. To test your
> theory, you should email him.
>
>

Wayne schrieb:

> This is something I forgot to discuss with Breadbox, I had a contact that
> was involved in a bid for a national Chinese personal computer (around 1
> billion of them). Going on what he was working on, it is unlikely it will
> be anywhere for comprehensive or complex as Geos. Now, in realistic
> terms, with the upswing of technological integration and power, Geoworks
> is very suitable (if not more).

A DOS program that hasn't had one lick of significant modernization since
the last Century and there is zero evidence of any change.

> Apart from this there are third world
> initiatives, one contact I made had his own integrated software package
> that he wanted to use with DOS for this official third world computer.

China?
Third World?
Thanks to William Jefferson Clinton, China has powerful new rocket
technology and a space program that is not exactly third world. Also, they
generate some of the finest Windows Virus programs. They have nuculear
weapons and are flooding the world with DVD players and all sorts of
non-third world technology.

> Linux people where complaining that the group was not even considering
> Linux for this computer, they obviously didn't realise that Linux was too
> resource hungry and slow, and offered little benefit over Windows CE on a
> cheap device. The OS my first contact could create (from experience of
> what this person and other related contacts had allready created) would
> have made would even have beatten GEOS for compactness and even speed.

Hong Kong is part of China and they are not in any way third world. Mao's
successors have already said that GEOS is not what they want for their red
guard. They want Windows but they don't want to pay for it.


> Lastly we come to the case of the Linux Asian government revolt, where
> variouse Asian governments want a alternative OS, for Asian peoples, to MS
> and Windows, which is of the greatest benefit to Geos and small OS
> developers. They are looking at Linux as the basis. In reality we should
> look at business, peofessional, research and government computers based on
> something like Linux/Java, and home and personal computer, gadgets and
> game consoles with something like Geos in them (as geos doesn't have many
> high end features yet). This could be effectively argued to them, with
> Asian language support and developement tools surrendered to their
> cultural control. If geoworks were to want to take on the high end much
> developement work would be needed unless we are talking third world
> computer conditions (then the general simpler use (not much video, sound,
> multimedia, 3D etc etc), and the general lack of high end use makes the
> adoptoion more sensible).

Geoworks is end-gamed, regards any major improvements in the future.
Breadbox is able to make its payroll based on non-GEOS software. GEOS has
had 15 years to prove itself to be a contender but failed. I was once a
cheerleader like you (circa early '90s).

Surely, the horse drawn carriage, used for general transportation is
end-gamed, even though a few hobbyists remain staunch devotees. Likewise for
GEOS.

> One last thing needed, I have been thinking about this recently, is to
> approach the US government and other countries to lobby for a mandate in
> law for universal driver support standard (free or nearly free) for every
> new product, and every product sold in the last 5 years, with the option
> to change the universal driver system in the future as much better
> aslternatives for new devices/computer architech are available. This
> counteracts variouse monopoly issues and opens up proper support and
> competition in the small OS market. MS should support this initative as a
> good counter action to further anti-trust problems. Basically this will
> lead to most manuafactures making a driver for the most relavent popular
> system (i.e. Windows or Mac) and a universal driver for all others. I am
> unfamiliar with what is being done in this field but it will need to be
> native recompiled Virtual Engine code based. At the moment I have heard
> of Sun Java Jini (I think they called it) and some Linux folks working on
> a universal driver system for any OS.

You would need Millions of Dollars just to kick off such an inititaive.
Politicians are like Seagulls, they have their bills open to swoop down and
grab cash. I admit that One Hundred Million Dollars would force such a
proposal into the spotlight and get peoples' attention.

> What does everybody else think, is this worth pursueing, as this is the
> only real avenue for homemade and small OS's, like Ensemble, to get common
> generic hardware support, with Virtual Engines, like Java, as the only way
> to get common generic program support. This doesn't stop these OS's from
> making naturally better native drivers or programs, but it means that
> users no longer have to be left out in the cold. Of course the mandate
> would be designed to preclude any custom, favouring, or active input by
> the leading OS vendor. If all these things are not done the leading OS
> vendor could be held liable for the failure of smaller vendors to
> compete. If these things are done their failure to compete could
> potentially be held to be much more their own doing.

Wayne, do you remember Bagdad Bob, that Iraqi commentator who made up false
scenarios while just the opposite was visibly happening around him?
That's the image that come up in my mind, if you know what I mean.

"hyubso" wrote in message
news:OzPub.31199$ON7.17231@newssvr31.news.prodigy. com...
> the swiss adn germans are wealthy societies with plenty of cash ot pay
> MSFT for windows licenses, along with having enough resources to waste
> on tech support for windows pcs. while some will support geos,
> program for it, etc, it is easier for people with $$$$ to spend $189US
> for winxpPro with no spell checker.. not so easy for htose folks who
> have no $189 to waste ...

I prefer an OS that is living in the 21st Century, rather than one which is
living in the early '90s. Spell checkers are free downloads and a non issue
compared to the awesome capabilities of Windows XP. Remember, GEOS is a one
megabyte limited DOS program that needs a DOS OS to run.

You need $129 for both:

http://www.drdos.com/products.html#breadbox

With Windows XP, you can pay $109 for an Full OEM edition. You also get it
free with a new PC as an upgrade for $99. That's a no brainer decision,
IMHO!

> russia is not so wealthy a society a dn maybe all those former eastern
> block countries would be fertile soil for geos developement.. in other
> words, geos could deliver an easier, more efficient and yet familiar
> computing experience for lots less money spent on software licenses,
> hardware purchases, adn electiricuyt o run it all, adn tech support to
> keep it all running.
>
> the theme here is geos can be THE solution for not so fabulously wealthy
> societies on this planet.

Can be? Please admit that will never happen. Aren't we past the point of
blindly believing in something that will never pan out?

> not everyone on this earth can drive a gas hog hummer... some can fill
> their transprotation needs with little toyotas/vws,etc...

Windows XP resource requirements is only a hog if measured in terms of
yesterday's hardware prices. In today's terms, a new $399 PC can run the
pants off of GEOS and you know it. That includes everything, the hardware
and software. Back in the '90s, GEOS needed on a $1000 plus PC to run.

QUESTION: Do you believe, on the eyes of your loved ones, that GEOS has a
future beyond its present "end-gamed" incarnation?????

I know what you mean, but "Bagdad Bob", now if you had read what I wrote,
and actually thought about it you would release what it said. You are
mistaken about what I wrote.

Firstly I was discussing several initatives out there, the Chinese
initative is seperate from the third world compter initatives except for
the extent some Asian countries might be able to adapt it. And yes there
are still many people in China and the third world that still use horse
drawn carraiges for regular transport, believe me if trade and manufacture
keeps going to countries like China from America and Europe there will be
a lot more horse drawn carraiges there too, and in Europe it is still used
by variouse poor people groups.

On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 23:02:27 GMT, Pat wrote:

>
> A DOS program that hasn't had one lick of significant modernization since
> the last Century and there is zero evidence of any change.

>
>> Apart from this there are third world

That is apart from the Chinese initative.

> China?
> Third World?



> Thanks to William Jefferson Clinton, China has powerful new rocket
[SNIP]
> weapons and are flooding the world with DVD players and all sorts of
> non-third world technology.
>

> Hong Kong is part of China and they are not in any way third world. Mao's
> successors have already said that GEOS is not what they want for their
> red
> guard. They want Windows but they don't want to pay for it.

OK if the right people "really" did say that, mean it, and still want it
instead of developing their own OS. As far as Geos not what they want,
the same goes if they still feel that way, things and Politics change,
especially if you use another approach, a very common failing in doing
business in Asia, executives in a company can get their product excluded
simply by the approach they use, who knows what happened but today is a
new day and things change. For a few million the Chineese government
could buy an OS like Geos and thumb their nose at MS and move on, for
quiet a few billion more they could buy the other. These people spent
more on government sponsored research last year then the other top 3
comined (I think that was the quote).

>
>
>> Lastly we come to the case of the Linux Asian government revolt, where

Forgot to mention I think there was a mention of using Tron, but as it is
a Japanese OS they might not like to use that either. If Malaysia had an
OS half as good as Geos they would probably try to get that adopted as it
and a number of over Asian countries probably would like to do likewise.

>
> Geoworks is end-gamed, regards any major improvements in the future.
> Breadbox is able to make its payroll based on non-GEOS software. GEOS has
> had 15 years to prove itself to be a contender but failed. I was once a
> cheerleader like you (circa early '90s).

The point is money talks, it is a modern OS essentially and enough to
start with and given the input can be modified and adapted for modern use
(Ensemble and Geos-SC). This is about discussing possible futures for
Geos, where the extra source code could also be the basis for enhancements
to the present Ensemble product, instead of being negative stuck in the
mud. How objective is this, well I'm not saying take on Windows XP it is
simply too far aghead (blocking the road), I talking about picking easier
targets. Geoworks missed a blatantly obviose opportunity by not providing
and pronmoting compatability between the PDA and Ensemble (as well as
stanard Windows), while promoting Ensemble as a Office alternative (cheap
alternative) in order to promote their platform and sales of each. If
Geoworks had been made to work under Windows as well as DOS then it would
have been very sensible. This is not all and good in hindsight, I
suggested most of this to them years ago.


>
> Surely, the horse drawn carriage, used for general transportation is
> end-gamed, even though a few hobbyists remain staunch devotees. Likewise
> for
> GEOS.

What you miss is that the third world needs very cheap devices that do the
limited range of jobs, rather then all the extra bells and whistles (the
rich can go out and by Playstation 2's and Athalon 3000 PC's with Radeon
9800 cards for their personal machines) a machine for feild, and office
workers of poor businesses, and teachers, writers and whoever else can
afford them. It is just a bandwagon to hitch to and earn catch (I myself
would prefer to see it for their benefit as well, and you are not going to
get that by forcing them into using Windows XP, that would only directly
benefit a fraction of the people).

>
>> One last thing needed, I have been thinking about this recently, is to
>> approach the US government and other countries to lobby for a mandate in
>> law for universal driver support standard (free or nearly free) for
>> every
>> new product, and every product sold in the last 5 years, with the option
>> to change the universal driver system in the future as much better
>> aslternatives for new devices/computer architech are available. This
>> counteracts variouse monopoly issues and opens up proper support and
>> competition in the small OS market. MS should support this initative
>> as a
>> good counter action to further anti-trust problems. Basically this will
>> lead to most manuafactures making a driver for the most relavent popular
>> system (i.e. Windows or Mac) and a universal driver for all others. I
>> am
>> unfamiliar with what is being done in this field but it will need to be
>> native recompiled Virtual Engine code based. At the moment I have heard
>> of Sun Java Jini (I think they called it) and some Linux folks working
>> on
>> a universal driver system for any OS.

>
> You would need Millions of Dollars just to kick off such an inititaive.
> Politicians are like Seagulls, they have their bills open to swoop down
> and
> grab cash. I admit that One Hundred Million Dollars would force such a
> proposal into the spotlight and get peoples' attention.

I just mentioned something directly of benefit for many companies whoes
combined trade is many billions of dollers per year, if they support there
is your money. How do you think lobbiest work, come into the politicians
office and say this won't work, it is doomed to failure, it helps nobody
and is of no benefit to virtually any business, please support us, or say:
we have something great, it will help all these businesses and
consequentially help the market and users, be good for the country etc,
and and we have the backing of all these companies and is finacially very
benfical, could we talk about it. You can be a pestimist and get nowhere
or you could positive and make something work in whatever legal and morale
way it can.

Bagdad Bob was famouse for trying to con everybody that those weren't
enemy troops figting a few miles away but that they were having a
tremendouse victory, in face of iminent defeat in reality, not for talking
about how the war could be fought, won or sustained. See even in battle
if you keep (sustain the war) the enmeny at the border the rest of the
country (business) can still go on generating profit before defeat, and in
business, unlike war, profit is till a good thing even inn the lack of
ultimate victory.


Wayne.


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On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 23:32:23 GMT, Pat wrote:

>
> "hyubso" wrote in message
> news:OzPub.31199$ON7.17231@newssvr31.news.prodigy. com...

> megabyte limited DOS program that needs a DOS OS to run.
>
> You need $129 for both:

Yes this is a seriouse problem, undr OEM the license needs to be max $10
included in a third world computer (my estimate). Still accross 10-100
million units this is not chicken fee (plus all the extra cash to be made
selling adds on and additional programs).

>> the theme here is geos can be THE solution for not so fabulously wealthy
>> societies on this planet.

Amen.

>
> Can be? Please admit that will never happen. Aren't we past the point of
> blindly believing in something that will never pan out?
>

> Windows XP resource requirements is only a hog if measured in terms of
> yesterday's hardware prices. In today's terms, a new $399 PC can run the
> pants off of GEOS and you know it. That includes everything, the hardware
> and software. Back in the '90s, GEOS needed on a $1000 plus PC to run.


You miss the piont, the maxiumun cost for some of these third world
computers will have to be $100, you are living in a dreamland if you think
that it makes more sense to pay four times as much (as well as 10 times
the tech support) to support an ageing outdated Windows satandard platform
that doesn't suite the environment, I think you better re-acess. You
maybe stuck in the delusion that they need to run Quake, Doom3, DVD, Video
editing/multimedia on every desktop, only less than (probably much less
than) 1% of people will be in the position to do that in Africa, let them
buy a PC or centre that has one, or buy a PS2, instead of the reality that
most of their computing needs are pre 90's, and even if Ensemble is a 90's
piece it will still run on 80's style equipement and be miles ahead, the
reality is that Geos outperforms XP/Office many times over on this
hardware even compared to a 500Mhz WinXP machine and deos the job compared
to a 4Ghz. Realism, I'm a realist not a delusionist.

This is about how to objectively make it happen not how to make it not
happen.

>
> QUESTION: Do you believe, on the eyes of your loved ones, that GEOS has a
> future beyond its present "end-gamed" incarnation?????

Depends on the people in chrage, want to volunteer?



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