Breadbox Outliner comments - GEOS

This is a discussion on Breadbox Outliner comments - GEOS ; I purchased Breadbox Outliner recently, and I've been trying it out. Here are my comments. Hope they help someone out there. I do a bit of writing and I had been using the Zoomer Note Book app (or the Palm ...

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  1. Breadbox Outliner comments

    I purchased Breadbox Outliner recently, and I've been trying it out.
    Here are my comments. Hope they help someone out there.

    I do a bit of writing and I had been using the Zoomer Note Book app
    (or the Palm Connect version, depending on the machine) to keep
    track of notes for my various projects. I was looking to replace
    that with Outliner.

    I have to say that, as a note-keeper and -organizer, Outliner works
    pretty well. One of the things I'm using it for is to plan a series
    of Sunday School classes I'm teaching on the history of the Bible, and
    it's easy (too easy!) just to dump in Luther's views on word-for-word
    translation in one card, someone else's comments on Biblical inerrancy
    in another card, etc., and just keep shuffling everything around
    until it makes sense.

    Each card can hold up to 32k of text. That's much better than Note
    Book's limit, which appears to be based on the number of lines.
    I had run into problems maintaining my "research notes" notebook,
    because pieces like "The Articles of War" or "Muslim Fire Weapons
    in The Middle Ages" were just too long to fit into one of Note
    Book's pages. Outliner holds them just fine. At this point, I've
    just about abandoned Note Book in favor of Outliner.

    There are a few limitations. There's no import or export function.
    You can't have tabs in the body of a card. Card bodies are just plain
    text, with no bolding, underlining, italics or graphics. And oddly
    enough, I can't seem to find a way to generate a classic numbered
    outline, like so:

    I. Main Topic 1
    A. Subtopic 1-1
    B. Subtopic 1-2
    II. Main Topic 2
    A. Subtopic 2-1
    B. Subtopic 2-2

    Most of those are not much of a problem for me. Note Book didn't
    allow tabs either, so I'm used to that, and I've already developed the
    habit of working in plain text anyway. GEOS's cut/paste and quick-copy
    facilities mostly make up for the lack of an import facility (I'm not
    sure what you'd import from, anyway) and the way-cool Print Preview
    feature makes it easy to generate a Write-ready dump of what's in
    the outline, so you don't really need to export.

    Some more points.

    - I'm not sure I agree with the way Outliner deals with topics.
    Right now, you create Main topics, with various Subtopics and
    Cards below them. Cards can have text bodies, Topics cannot.
    Topics can have Cards and Suptopics below them, Cards cannot.

    For my own use, I'd prefer that distinction be blurred a bit more.
    When I start a new bullet point, I'm not always sure whether it's
    going to be a single card or a larger topic with several subtopics.
    It would be nice to easily change a Card into a Topic and vice versa.

    - I would like to see the standard file-access buttons on the toolbar
    (especially the Save button).

    - On the "Move Card" panel, it would be nice to have a "Move above"
    button in addition to the "Move below" button. Otherwise it becomes
    cumbersome to change a card to be the first card within a topic.

    - It looks like you can't save changes to a card while you're making
    those changes. You have to go to another card before the changes
    to the first card can be saved. Not sure why it was done that way,
    but as long as that's the setup, it would be nice to have a button
    to have the card revert to how it was when you first started making
    changes to it.

    - It looks like there's no way to erase all the contents of a card.
    I deleted all the text in a card in one of my outlines and went
    to another card. When I came back to that card, the text was
    still there.

    - On my Omnigo, Outliner's installer hangs and Outliner itself crashes
    the system. I understand that the OG is an orphan system, but it
    would be nice if it didn't do that. :-(

    Anyway, I've been looking for a GEOS app like Outliner for a couple
    of years now, and overall I'm pretty happy with the product.
    --
    Doug Taylor | Nothing real can be threatened.
    The Ohio State University | Nothing unreal exists.
    doug-taylor+@osu.edu | - A Course in Miracles

  2. Re: Breadbox Outliner comments

    Sounds like a pretty crappy app.

    "Douglas A. Taylor" wrote in message
    news:bmp2f8$2sg$1@dougspc.uts.ohio-state.edu...
    > I purchased Breadbox Outliner recently, and I've been trying it out.
    > Here are my comments. Hope they help someone out there.
    >
    > I do a bit of writing and I had been using the Zoomer Note Book app
    > (or the Palm Connect version, depending on the machine) to keep
    > track of notes for my various projects. I was looking to replace
    > that with Outliner.
    >
    > I have to say that, as a note-keeper and -organizer, Outliner works
    > pretty well. One of the things I'm using it for is to plan a series
    > of Sunday School classes I'm teaching on the history of the Bible, and
    > it's easy (too easy!) just to dump in Luther's views on word-for-word
    > translation in one card, someone else's comments on Biblical inerrancy
    > in another card, etc., and just keep shuffling everything around
    > until it makes sense.
    >
    > Each card can hold up to 32k of text. That's much better than Note
    > Book's limit, which appears to be based on the number of lines.
    > I had run into problems maintaining my "research notes" notebook,
    > because pieces like "The Articles of War" or "Muslim Fire Weapons
    > in The Middle Ages" were just too long to fit into one of Note
    > Book's pages. Outliner holds them just fine. At this point, I've
    > just about abandoned Note Book in favor of Outliner.
    >
    > There are a few limitations. There's no import or export function.
    > You can't have tabs in the body of a card. Card bodies are just plain
    > text, with no bolding, underlining, italics or graphics. And oddly
    > enough, I can't seem to find a way to generate a classic numbered
    > outline, like so:
    >
    > I. Main Topic 1
    > A. Subtopic 1-1
    > B. Subtopic 1-2
    > II. Main Topic 2
    > A. Subtopic 2-1
    > B. Subtopic 2-2
    >
    > Most of those are not much of a problem for me. Note Book didn't
    > allow tabs either, so I'm used to that, and I've already developed the
    > habit of working in plain text anyway. GEOS's cut/paste and quick-copy
    > facilities mostly make up for the lack of an import facility (I'm not
    > sure what you'd import from, anyway) and the way-cool Print Preview
    > feature makes it easy to generate a Write-ready dump of what's in
    > the outline, so you don't really need to export.
    >
    > Some more points.
    >
    > - I'm not sure I agree with the way Outliner deals with topics.
    > Right now, you create Main topics, with various Subtopics and
    > Cards below them. Cards can have text bodies, Topics cannot.
    > Topics can have Cards and Suptopics below them, Cards cannot.
    >
    > For my own use, I'd prefer that distinction be blurred a bit more.
    > When I start a new bullet point, I'm not always sure whether it's
    > going to be a single card or a larger topic with several subtopics.
    > It would be nice to easily change a Card into a Topic and vice versa.
    >
    > - I would like to see the standard file-access buttons on the toolbar
    > (especially the Save button).
    >
    > - On the "Move Card" panel, it would be nice to have a "Move above"
    > button in addition to the "Move below" button. Otherwise it becomes
    > cumbersome to change a card to be the first card within a topic.
    >
    > - It looks like you can't save changes to a card while you're making
    > those changes. You have to go to another card before the changes
    > to the first card can be saved. Not sure why it was done that way,
    > but as long as that's the setup, it would be nice to have a button
    > to have the card revert to how it was when you first started making
    > changes to it.
    >
    > - It looks like there's no way to erase all the contents of a card.
    > I deleted all the text in a card in one of my outlines and went
    > to another card. When I came back to that card, the text was
    > still there.
    >
    > - On my Omnigo, Outliner's installer hangs and Outliner itself crashes
    > the system. I understand that the OG is an orphan system, but it
    > would be nice if it didn't do that. :-(
    >
    > Anyway, I've been looking for a GEOS app like Outliner for a couple
    > of years now, and overall I'm pretty happy with the product.
    > --
    > Doug Taylor | Nothing real can be threatened.
    > The Ohio State University | Nothing unreal exists.
    > doug-taylor+@osu.edu | - A Course in Miracles




  3. Re: Breadbox Outliner comments

    "Bob" wrote in message
    news:WH%jb.162166$%h1.158215@sccrnsc02...

    > Sounds like a pretty crappy app.


    Booo! Hiss!

    I'm gonna have to disagree with you Bob. The GEOS FOR DUMMIES book has a
    half page Appendix devoted to all the third party apps for GEOS. It rates
    Organizer a B+.








  4. Re: Breadbox Outliner comments

    Douglas A. Taylor wrote:
    > Anyway, I've been looking for a GEOS app like Outliner for a couple
    > of years now, and overall I'm pretty happy with the product.


    Um, outliner looks trikingly familiar with one of the apps included with
    the 2.0 Beta (the one with the "x" closing buttons etc) so it has been
    arorund for like a decade. Nice app though.


  5. Re: Breadbox Outliner comments



    Douglas A. Taylor wrote:
    > I purchased Breadbox Outliner recently, and I've been trying it out.
    > Here are my comments. Hope they help someone out there.
    >

    [big snip]

    Thanks for those well though out comments Doug. One that we'll look
    closely at "fixing" is the ability to do tabs and text formatting in the
    cards. And we'll keep the rest in mind as we refine the app.

    John ;-)


  6. Re: Breadbox Outliner comments



    Pat wrote:

    > "Bob" wrote in message
    > news:WH%jb.162166$%h1.158215@sccrnsc02...
    >
    >
    >>Sounds like a pretty crappy app.

    >
    >
    > Booo! Hiss!
    >
    > I'm gonna have to disagree with you Bob. The GEOS FOR DUMMIES book has a
    > half page Appendix devoted to all the third party apps for GEOS. It rates
    > Organizer a B+.
    >



    Hmmmm... now that Breadbox IS Geos does that mean that our apps are no
    longer 3rd party but first party.

    John ;-)


  7. Re: Breadbox Outliner comments

    Bob schrieb:
    >
    > Sounds like a pretty crappy app.


    Sounds like a really good app that could be even better in some points.
    Sounds like an app that is still missing in windows (except those apps
    which need 1 PIII with 512MB Ram to do the same job)

    Grossibaer

    --
    If Microsoft would invest only 5 minutes to make Windows boot 1/1000
    second faster,
    we would save 30 working hours worldwide every day.

  8. Re: Breadbox Outliner comments

    Dominique Vocat schrieb:
    >
    > Douglas A. Taylor wrote:
    > > Anyway, I've been looking for a GEOS app like Outliner for a couple
    > > of years now, and overall I'm pretty happy with the product.

    >
    > Um, outliner looks trikingly familiar with one of the apps included with
    > the 2.0 Beta (the one with the "x" closing buttons etc) so it has been
    > arorund for like a decade. Nice app though.


    Note Taker has had its limitations (a LOT more than Outliner I'd say)
    and was relatively unstable. But a nice app too. Unfortunately never
    available to the public.

    Grossibaer

    --
    If Microsoft would invest only 5 minutes to make Windows boot 1/1000
    second faster,
    we would save 30 working hours worldwide every day.

  9. Re: Breadbox Outliner comments

    You're right Dom, it is based loosely on an app that Geoworks called
    NoteTaker written mostly by Tony Requist.

    John ;-)

    Dominique Vocat wrote:

    > Douglas A. Taylor wrote:
    >
    >> Anyway, I've been looking for a GEOS app like Outliner for a couple
    >> of years now, and overall I'm pretty happy with the product.

    >
    >
    > Um, outliner looks trikingly familiar with one of the apps included with
    > the 2.0 Beta (the one with the "x" closing buttons etc) so it has been
    > arorund for like a decade. Nice app though.
    >



  10. Re: Breadbox Outliner comments

    "John Howard" wrote in message
    news:vp2ol7jj1u6j58@corp.supernews.com...
    >
    > Thanks for those well though out comments Doug. One that we'll look
    > closely at "fixing" is the ability to do tabs and text formatting in the
    > cards. And we'll keep the rest in mind as we refine the app.
    >
    > John ;-)


    LOL! In other words; "It is what it is, and that's all its' gonna be."




  11. Re: Breadbox Outliner comments

    "Jens-Michael Gross" wrote in message
    news:3F91656E.613285E7@grossibaer.de...
    > Sounds like a really good app that could be even better in some points.
    > Sounds like an app that is still missing in windows (except those apps
    > which need 1 PIII with 512MB Ram to do the same job)
    >
    > Grossibaer


    Wow! A PIII! That's a whole $15. And another $20 for 512MB RAM! God forbid!!
    Progress!!! NOOOOOO!!! No one should ever need more then a 386DX/33Mhz with
    4 megs RAM.



  12. Re: Breadbox Outliner comments

    wow a P3 to type a letter.. wow progress!!!!

    wow 512 MB to type a letter or a text email message.. wow progress!!!!

    wow.. 5 hours resetting up win2000 after it bombs while burning a cd of
    digital photos the other night.. and about an hour it seemed just for
    reformatting hte 80gb progress hard drive in wowo progress ntfs file
    system format wow progress!


    sure wish i had the 15 minute install of geos on a 386.. that was real
    progress!




    Bob wrote:
    > "Jens-Michael Gross" wrote in message
    > news:3F91656E.613285E7@grossibaer.de...
    >
    >>Sounds like a really good app that could be even better in some points.
    >>Sounds like an app that is still missing in windows (except those apps
    >>which need 1 PIII with 512MB Ram to do the same job)
    >>
    >>Grossibaer

    >
    >
    > Wow! A PIII! That's a whole $15. And another $20 for 512MB RAM! God forbid!!
    > Progress!!! NOOOOOO!!! No one should ever need more then a 386DX/33Mhz with
    > 4 megs RAM.
    >
    >



  13. Re: Breadbox Outliner comments

    Did I miss the announcement about a free and clear ownership, with no
    strings attatched?


    "John Howard" wrote in message
    news:vp2oqfslsgmod7@corp.supernews.com...
    >
    >
    > Pat wrote:
    >
    > > "Bob" wrote in message
    > > news:WH%jb.162166$%h1.158215@sccrnsc02...
    > >
    > >
    > >>Sounds like a pretty crappy app.

    > >
    > >
    > > Booo! Hiss!
    > >
    > > I'm gonna have to disagree with you Bob. The GEOS FOR DUMMIES book has a
    > > half page Appendix devoted to all the third party apps for GEOS. It

    rates
    > > Organizer a B+.
    > >

    >
    >
    > Hmmmm... now that Breadbox IS Geos does that mean that our apps are no
    > longer 3rd party but first party.
    >
    > John ;-)
    >




  14. Re: Breadbox Outliner comments

    In article <3f91420b$1@news.swissonline.ch>,
    Dominique Vocat wrote:
    >Douglas A. Taylor wrote:
    >> Anyway, I've been looking for a GEOS app like Outliner for a couple
    >> of years now, and overall I'm pretty happy with the product.

    >
    >Um, outliner looks trikingly familiar with one of the apps included with
    >the 2.0 Beta (the one with the "x" closing buttons etc) so it has been
    >arorund for like a decade. Nice app though.


    I never saw the 2.0 Beta or Note Taker.
    --
    Doug Taylor | Nothing real can be threatened.
    The Ohio State University | Nothing unreal exists.
    doug-taylor+@osu.edu | - A Course in Miracles

  15. Re: Breadbox Outliner comments

    In article <3F91656E.613285E7@grossibaer.de>,
    Jens-Michael Gross wrote:
    >Bob schrieb:
    >>
    >> Sounds like a pretty crappy app.

    >
    >Sounds like a really good app that could be even better in some points.


    Yup, Jens, that's my opinion as well. Bob sure has a way of sucking
    the fun out of everything, doesn't he? That's one sign of an unhappy
    person.
    --
    Doug Taylor | Nothing real can be threatened.
    The Ohio State University | Nothing unreal exists.
    doug-taylor+@osu.edu | - A Course in Miracles

  16. Re: Breadbox Outliner comments

    In article ,
    John Howard wrote:
    >
    >
    >Douglas A. Taylor wrote:
    >> I purchased Breadbox Outliner recently, and I've been trying it out.
    >> Here are my comments. Hope they help someone out there.
    >>

    >[big snip]
    >
    >Thanks for those well though out comments Doug. One that we'll look
    >closely at "fixing" is the ability to do tabs and text formatting in the
    >cards. And we'll keep the rest in mind as we refine the app.


    Thanks, John. As you probably know, Frank sent me an e-mail addressing
    my concerns point by point. I may have missed a couple of features.
    I'll try what he mentioned and report back here with any corrections or
    revisions.
    --
    Doug Taylor | Nothing real can be threatened.
    The Ohio State University | Nothing unreal exists.
    doug-taylor+@osu.edu | - A Course in Miracles

  17. Re: Breadbox Outliner comments

    Hello,
    If you want a good outliner app that runs on Palm/Windows combo, take
    a look at ThoughtManager from HandsHigh Software (www.handshigh.com).
    It works very well and is easy to move data back/forth to PC.
    On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 15:39:20 +0000 (UTC),
    taylor@dougspc.uts.ohio-state.edu (Douglas A. Taylor) wrote:

    >I purchased Breadbox Outliner recently, and I've been trying it out.
    >Here are my comments. Hope they help someone out there.
    >
    >I do a bit of writing and I had been using the Zoomer Note Book app
    >(or the Palm Connect version, depending on the machine) to keep
    >track of notes for my various projects. I was looking to replace
    >that with Outliner.
    >
    >I have to say that, as a note-keeper and -organizer, Outliner works
    >pretty well. One of the things I'm using it for is to plan a series
    >of Sunday School classes I'm teaching on the history of the Bible, and
    >it's easy (too easy!) just to dump in Luther's views on word-for-word
    >translation in one card, someone else's comments on Biblical inerrancy
    >in another card, etc., and just keep shuffling everything around
    >until it makes sense.
    >
    >Each card can hold up to 32k of text. That's much better than Note
    >Book's limit, which appears to be based on the number of lines.
    >I had run into problems maintaining my "research notes" notebook,
    >because pieces like "The Articles of War" or "Muslim Fire Weapons
    >in The Middle Ages" were just too long to fit into one of Note
    >Book's pages. Outliner holds them just fine. At this point, I've
    >just about abandoned Note Book in favor of Outliner.
    >
    >There are a few limitations. There's no import or export function.
    >You can't have tabs in the body of a card. Card bodies are just plain
    >text, with no bolding, underlining, italics or graphics. And oddly
    >enough, I can't seem to find a way to generate a classic numbered
    >outline, like so:
    >
    >I. Main Topic 1
    > A. Subtopic 1-1
    > B. Subtopic 1-2
    >II. Main Topic 2
    > A. Subtopic 2-1
    > B. Subtopic 2-2
    >
    >Most of those are not much of a problem for me. Note Book didn't
    >allow tabs either, so I'm used to that, and I've already developed the
    >habit of working in plain text anyway. GEOS's cut/paste and quick-copy
    >facilities mostly make up for the lack of an import facility (I'm not
    >sure what you'd import from, anyway) and the way-cool Print Preview
    >feature makes it easy to generate a Write-ready dump of what's in
    >the outline, so you don't really need to export.
    >
    >Some more points.
    >
    >- I'm not sure I agree with the way Outliner deals with topics.
    > Right now, you create Main topics, with various Subtopics and
    > Cards below them. Cards can have text bodies, Topics cannot.
    > Topics can have Cards and Suptopics below them, Cards cannot.
    >
    > For my own use, I'd prefer that distinction be blurred a bit more.
    > When I start a new bullet point, I'm not always sure whether it's
    > going to be a single card or a larger topic with several subtopics.
    > It would be nice to easily change a Card into a Topic and vice versa.
    >
    >- I would like to see the standard file-access buttons on the toolbar
    > (especially the Save button).
    >
    >- On the "Move Card" panel, it would be nice to have a "Move above"
    > button in addition to the "Move below" button. Otherwise it becomes
    > cumbersome to change a card to be the first card within a topic.
    >
    >- It looks like you can't save changes to a card while you're making
    > those changes. You have to go to another card before the changes
    > to the first card can be saved. Not sure why it was done that way,
    > but as long as that's the setup, it would be nice to have a button
    > to have the card revert to how it was when you first started making
    > changes to it.
    >
    >- It looks like there's no way to erase all the contents of a card.
    > I deleted all the text in a card in one of my outlines and went
    > to another card. When I came back to that card, the text was
    > still there.
    >
    >- On my Omnigo, Outliner's installer hangs and Outliner itself crashes
    > the system. I understand that the OG is an orphan system, but it
    > would be nice if it didn't do that. :-(
    >
    >Anyway, I've been looking for a GEOS app like Outliner for a couple
    >of years now, and overall I'm pretty happy with the product.



  18. Re: Breadbox Outliner comments

    In article ,
    OmaSteak wrote:
    >Hello,
    >If you want a good outliner app that runs on Palm/Windows combo, take
    >a look at ThoughtManager from HandsHigh Software (www.handshigh.com).
    >It works very well and is easy to move data back/forth to PC.


    Thanks for the referral, but I don't use either the Palm OS or Windows.
    --
    Doug Taylor | Nothing real can be threatened.
    The Ohio State University | Nothing unreal exists.
    doug-taylor+@osu.edu | - A Course in Miracles

  19. Re: Breadbox Outliner comments


    "hyubso" wrote in message
    news:ePpkb.12815$wq.6878@newssvr33.news.prodigy.co m...

    > wow a P3 to type a letter.. wow progress!!!!


    That's just silly. (As usual). I was simply referring to the fact that a
    PIII is dirt cheap. You can use it for running your favorite Word Processor.
    But, not only that. You can run TONS of all sorts of other applications.
    Some can even create Studio quaility music, and video! Can u imagine? What a
    silly thing. Those folks that keep on improving and improving the power of a
    Personal Computer! Rubbish! Utter rubbish!



  20. Re: Breadbox Outliner comments

    hyubso schrieb:
    >
    > wow a P3 to type a letter.. wow progress!!!!
    >
    > wow 512 MB to type a letter or a text email message.. wow progress!!!!
    >
    > wow.. 5 hours resetting up win2000 after it bombs while burning a cd of
    > digital photos the other night.. and about an hour it seemed just for
    > reformatting hte 80gb progress hard drive in wowo progress ntfs file
    > system format wow progress!
    >
    > sure wish i had the 15 minute install of geos on a 386.. that was real
    > progress!


    Not to forget the 8kWh per day it takes to power the 'wow, progress!'
    computer with its 'never shut me down' OS compared to the 0.6kWh it
    takes to run a 386/40 8 working hours and shut it down then.


    Grossibaer

    --
    If Microsoft would invest only 5 minutes to make Windows boot 1/1000
    second faster,
    we would save 30 working hours worldwide every day.

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