Who's on first? - GEOS

This is a discussion on Who's on first? - GEOS ; "Jens-Michael Gross" wrote in message news:3F5F3942.349C1E94@grossibaer.de... > > But if you'd know only a fraction of what you pretend to know, you > woulnd't think that HIMEM.SYS is a realmode loader. > Even plain DOS can run without. And GEOS ...

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Thread: Who's on first?

  1. Re: HIMEM.SYS and other ramblings..was - Re: Who's on first? FREEOE Spell Checker and other ramblings from the incompetent mind of Hyubso!(D'OH!)

    "Jens-Michael Gross" wrote in message
    news:3F5F3942.349C1E94@grossibaer.de...
    >
    > But if you'd know only a fraction of what you pretend to know, you
    > woulnd't think that HIMEM.SYS is a realmode loader.
    > Even plain DOS can run without. And GEOS can (and is not limited to
    > conventional memory without it).
    > Only windoze can't without loadign a realmode memory manager first.


    Silly. A rose by any other name. HIMEM.SYS is simply a 16-bit DOS-Based BIOS
    that creates the HMA, and "manages" XMS. Of COURSE DOS can run without
    HIMEM.SYS as DOS only address 1,048,576 bytes of memory. Now what happens
    without HIMEM.SYS, (running on a DOS system), and your DOS application of
    choice needs 4 megs RAM to run? You never cease to amaze me Jens. Your
    circular logic is illogical.



  2. Re: HIMEM.SYS and other ramblings..was - Re: Who's on first? FREEOE Spell Checker and other ramblings from the incompetent mind of Hyubso!(D'OH!)


    Bob wrote:

    > Plain stupid. GEOS needs an OS to actually boot the PC before you can

    use
    > GEOS. So if the MBR/DBR fails..no GEOS. It's all the same. If u can't

    start
    > the PC in real-mode, ain't nothin' gonna work. You sure your a PC Tech?
    > YIKES! Scary!!!


    Hmmmmm.....think that this applies to all OS:es, not only GEOS.............

    BR,
    Hans

  3. Re: Who's on first?

    I'm glad you found this Abbot and Costello piece funny. I wrote it. But I'm
    very concerned that it's getting passed around without my byline or any
    other credit. I'm a professional writer, and I depend on selling my
    work--and on name recognition--to stay financially afloat.

    The article originally appeared in print in May, 2003 in both ComputerUser
    and the Dublin-based Sunday Business Post. You'll find proper, approved
    postings at http://www.computeruser.com/articles...1,0501,03.html and
    http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/...y124845208.asp.

    It's part of a regular column, Gigglebytes, that has appeared in several
    publications since I started writing it for Computer Currents in 1986. It
    currently appears in the Sunday Business Post and Byte.com. This particular
    column, by the way, was the last one to appear in ComputerUser. You'll learn
    more about Gigglebytes on my own Web site, www.thelinkinspector.com.

    When you post a copyrighted article on a newsgroup (which is arguably an
    illegal act in and of itself), you should at least do the courtesy of
    including a byline, a copyright notice, and a URL to the original article.
    If you post this article again, please do me at least that courtesy.

    Thank you,



    Lincoln Spector
    Journalist, Columnist, Humorist
    lincoln@thelinkinspector.com
    www.thelinkinspector.com



  4. Re: Who's on first?

    In newsaM7b.808$Ct4.800@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com,
    Lincoln Spector wrote:
    | I'm glad you found this Abbot and Costello piece funny. I wrote it.
    | But I'm very concerned that it's getting passed around without my
    | byline or any other credit. I'm a professional writer, and I depend
    | on selling my work--and on name recognition--to stay financially
    | afloat.
    |
    | The article originally appeared in print in May, 2003 in both
    | ComputerUser and the Dublin-based Sunday Business Post. You'll find
    | proper, approved postings at
    | http://www.computeruser.com/articles...1,0501,03.html and
    | http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/...y124845208.asp.
    |
    | It's part of a regular column, Gigglebytes, that has appeared in
    | several publications since I started writing it for Computer Currents
    | in 1986. It currently appears in the Sunday Business Post and
    | Byte.com. This particular column, by the way, was the last one to
    | appear in ComputerUser. You'll learn more about Gigglebytes on my own
    | Web site, www.thelinkinspector.com.
    |
    | When you post a copyrighted article on a newsgroup (which is arguably
    | an illegal act in and of itself), you should at least do the courtesy
    | of including a byline, a copyright notice, and a URL to the original
    | article. If you post this article again, please do me at least that
    | courtesy.
    |
    | Thank you,

    Linc -

    I found it funny, too. You're probably aware that it's often the case
    that someone posting a bit of internet humor has had the piece from a
    dozen forwarded generations, and for some reason, the byline or author's
    info is usually the first thing to go missing. I don't have any idea if
    this is actually the case here, but it wouldn't surprise me.

    I lurk on the message board secion of www.snopes.com, a pretty
    well-known clearinghouse for urban legends and other netlore. There are
    often mentions of humor or other articles that have been passed around,
    and some of the people there are pretty diligent about tracing the
    original author. If youre concerned about any more of your work being
    lifted and not credited, you might consider hanging out there yourself
    just to make it known that you, as an author, are aware of this kind of
    abuse.

    Thanks for introducing yourself. We'll try to check out more of your
    stuff - if we can can take the time from arguing about whether GEOS is
    an OS or a suite, bickering over whether or not it's a valid program for
    today's computing needs, and posting a dozen messages an hour calling
    each other names.

    Tom



  5. Re: Who's on first?

    > I found it funny, too. You're probably aware that it's often the case
    > that someone posting a bit of internet humor has had the piece from a
    > dozen forwarded generations, and for some reason, the byline or author's
    > info is usually the first thing to go missing. I don't have any idea if
    > this is actually the case here, but it wouldn't surprise me.

    I assume this is the case.

    >
    > I lurk on the message board secion of www.snopes.com, a pretty
    > well-known clearinghouse for urban legends and other netlore. There are
    > often mentions of humor or other articles that have been passed around,
    > and some of the people there are pretty diligent about tracing the
    > original author. If youre concerned about any more of your work being
    > lifted and not credited, you might consider hanging out there yourself
    > just to make it known that you, as an author, are aware of this kind of
    > abuse.

    Thanks for the tip.

    Lincoln



  6. Re: HIMEM.SYS and other ramblings..was - Re: Who's on first? FREEOE Spell Checker and other ramblings from the incompetent mind of Hyubso!(D'OH!)

    "Hans Lindgren" wrote in message
    news:NewsReader.1.0.200391031121321408@news1.telia .com...
    >
    > Bob wrote:
    >
    > > Plain stupid. GEOS needs an OS to actually boot the PC before you can

    > use
    > > GEOS. So if the MBR/DBR fails..no GEOS. It's all the same. If u can't

    > start
    > > the PC in real-mode, ain't nothin' gonna work. You sure your a PC Tech?
    > > YIKES! Scary!!!

    >
    > Hmmmmm.....think that this applies to all OS:es, not only

    GEOS.............
    >
    > BR,
    > Hans


    EXACTLY!



  7. Re: HIMEM.SYS and other ramblings..was - Re: Who's on first? FREEOESpell Checker and other ramblings from the incompetent mind of Hyubso!(D'OH!)

    Bob wrote:

    > "Jens-Michael Gross" wrote in message
    > news:3F5F3942.349C1E94@grossibaer.de...
    >
    >>Bob schrieb:
    >>
    >>>You know, (I HOPE), that all OS's for the IBM/INTEL platform must start

    >
    > in
    >
    >>>real-mode. IO.SYS, MSDOS.SYS and HIMEM.SYS are simply real-mode loaders.

    >
    > But
    >
    >>>you know this....I HOPE!

    >>
    >>Well, they don't really need to.

    >
    >
    >>Grossibaer

    >
    >
    > Yes they do. They must. It is part of the IBM/Intel's modis of operenda.
    >
    >

    Rubbish! http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/H/himem_sys.html
    OS/2 doesn't. The Linux kernal doesn't. x86 *.Nixs don't, BeOs doesn't.
    QNX doesn't, NT based Windows don't.


  8. Re: HIMEM.SYS and other ramblings..was - Re: Who's on first? FREEOE Spell Checker and other ramblings from the incompetent mind of Hyubso!(D'OH!)

    NTLDR u are saying doesn't load in real-mode?

    "Bob" wrote in message
    news:JMN7b.311828$Oz4.101288@rwcrnsc54...
    > "Hans Lindgren" wrote in message
    > news:NewsReader.1.0.200391031121321408@news1.telia .com...
    > >
    > > Bob wrote:
    > >
    > > > Plain stupid. GEOS needs an OS to actually boot the PC before you can

    > > use
    > > > GEOS. So if the MBR/DBR fails..no GEOS. It's all the same. If u can't

    > > start
    > > > the PC in real-mode, ain't nothin' gonna work. You sure your a PC

    Tech?
    > > > YIKES! Scary!!!

    > >
    > > Hmmmmm.....think that this applies to all OS:es, not only

    > GEOS.............
    > >
    > > BR,
    > > Hans

    >
    > EXACTLY!
    >
    >




  9. Re: HIMEM.SYS and other ramblings..was - Re: Who's on first? FREEOESpell Checker and other ramblings from the incompetent mind ofHyubso!(D'OH!)

    Bob schrieb:

    > Silly. A rose by any other name. HIMEM.SYS is simply a 16-bit DOS-Based BIOS
    > that creates the HMA, and "manages" XMS. Of COURSE DOS can run without
    > HIMEM.SYS as DOS only address 1,048,576 bytes of memory. Now what happens
    > without HIMEM.SYS, (running on a DOS system), and your DOS application of
    > choice needs 4 megs RAM to run? You never cease to amaze me Jens. Your
    > circular logic is illogical.


    Well, your logic is way more strange.

    In your opinion, GEOS is just a DOS program. And GEOS has definitely no
    problem using 16MB RAM on a system without HIMEM.SYS or any other memory
    manager (like EMM386 or such). And there have been many more DOS
    programs able to do the same.
    No matter how you turn it, you're wrong with either one or all of your
    statements.

    Grossibaer

    --
    Take a class. Read a book. Don't expect computers to be simple, because
    they are not.

  10. Re: HIMEM.SYS and other ramblings..was - Re: Who's on first? FREEOESpell Checker and other ramblings from the incompetent mind ofHyubso!(D'OH!)

    Bob schrieb:
    >
    > NTLDR u are saying doesn't load in real-mode?
    >
    > "Bob" wrote in message
    > news:JMN7b.311828$Oz4.101288@rwcrnsc54...
    > > "Hans Lindgren" wrote in message
    > > news:NewsReader.1.0.200391031121321408@news1.telia .com...
    > > >
    > > > Bob wrote:
    > > >
    > > > > Plain stupid. GEOS needs an OS to actually boot the PC before you can
    > > > use
    > > > > GEOS. So if the MBR/DBR fails..no GEOS. It's all the same. If u can't
    > > > start
    > > > > the PC in real-mode, ain't nothin' gonna work. You sure your a PC

    > Tech?
    > > > > YIKES! Scary!!!
    > > >
    > > > Hmmmmm.....think that this applies to all OS:es, not only

    > > GEOS.............
    > > >
    > > > BR,
    > > > Hans

    > >
    > > EXACTLY!
    > >
    > >



    Looking at the quoted thread above, I cannot do other than laugh about
    Bob questioning himself (and returning to TOP posting again)

    Grossibaer

    --
    Take a class. Read a book. Don't expect computers to be simple, because
    they are not.

  11. Re: You Don't Need A OS To Load GEOS - was - Re: HIMEM.SYS and other

    Bob schrieb:
    >
    > "Jens-Michael Gross" wrote in message
    > news:3F5F37C4.9B324384@grossibaer.de...
    > >
    > > But you're wroong: geos don't need a OS to boot, it needs a file zsystem
    > > to boot.

    >
    > > Grossibaer

    >
    > OK. I have a PC w/out an OS. I press the power-on button and the System ROM
    > BIOS does its' thing. My drive is partitioned and has a file system on it.
    > At the end of the ROM BIOS execution my monitor displays a message similar
    > to; "Invaild System Disk." Hmmm. I have GEOS installed. You said I don't
    > need an OS to load and run GEOS. How come it don't work?? What am I missing?
    > Oh wait...I know. AN OS! (Was your Computer Science degree via
    > correspondence courses?)


    Well, if you have an original IBM PC, then you'll get a basic
    interpreter if there is no other OS on the HD or disk.
    And for interpreting a filesystem, you don't need an OS. All you need is
    a little it of code that identifies the position of a file and load the
    data. And a little bit more code to actually write files.
    Reading data from a partition (actually ReiserFS in my case) is a job
    GRUBS does every bootup. Without any OS loaded.
    And how does DR-Dos load IBMBIO.SYS, the OS kernel I/O part, or
    IBMDOS.SYS, the DOS part of DR-Dos, without having the DOS already
    loaded? Imagine, it can locate nd load these files even if you move them
    on the partition. Without rewriting the boot code.
    Strange. Must be a magical trick, like pulling yourself out of the mud
    on your own hairs.

    I said, GEOS just needs a file system driver. DOS provides this in a
    very vconvenient way, so GEOS was designed to use it. It could be
    anything else providing similar access.

    One could even rewrite the GEOS loader to provide the file system access
    on its own and boot directly from MBR. But why should one do this? Who
    would be so stupid to remove compatibility with other OS just to meet
    your (also stupid) criteria for something being an OS or not?
    Well, maybe you, definitely not I.

    Grossibaer

    --
    Take a class. Read a book. Don't expect computers to be simple, because
    they are not.

  12. Re: HIMEM.SYS and other ramblings..was - Re: Who's on first? FREEOE Spell Checker and other ramblings from the incompetent mind of Hyubso!(D'OH!)

    So then Jens, NTLDR loads in protected-mode?

    "Jens-Michael Gross" wrote in message
    news:3F608E31.A63E3AE0@grossibaer.de...
    > Bob schrieb:
    > >
    > > NTLDR u are saying doesn't load in real-mode?
    > >
    > > "Bob" wrote in message
    > > news:JMN7b.311828$Oz4.101288@rwcrnsc54...
    > > > "Hans Lindgren" wrote in message
    > > > news:NewsReader.1.0.200391031121321408@news1.telia .com...
    > > > >
    > > > > Bob wrote:
    > > > >
    > > > > > Plain stupid. GEOS needs an OS to actually boot the PC before you

    can
    > > > > use
    > > > > > GEOS. So if the MBR/DBR fails..no GEOS. It's all the same. If u

    can't
    > > > > start
    > > > > > the PC in real-mode, ain't nothin' gonna work. You sure your a PC

    > > Tech?
    > > > > > YIKES! Scary!!!
    > > > >
    > > > > Hmmmmm.....think that this applies to all OS:es, not only
    > > > GEOS.............
    > > > >
    > > > > BR,
    > > > > Hans
    > > >
    > > > EXACTLY!
    > > >
    > > >

    >
    >
    > Looking at the quoted thread above, I cannot do other than laugh about
    > Bob questioning himself (and returning to TOP posting again)
    >
    > Grossibaer
    >
    > --
    > Take a class. Read a book. Don't expect computers to be simple, because
    > they are not.




  13. Re: HIMEM.SYS and other ramblings..was - Re: Who's on first? FREEOE Spell Checker and other ramblings from the incompetent mind of Hyubso!(D'OH!)

    "Jens-Michael Gross" wrote in message
    news:3F608BDF.CB982371@grossibaer.de...
    >
    > In your opinion, GEOS is just a DOS program.


    > Grossibaer


    EXACTLY! Finally you have learned!



  14. Re: You Don't Need A OS To Load GEOS - was - Re: HIMEM.SYS and other ramblings..was - Re: Who's on first? FREEOE Spell Checker and other ramblings from the incompetent mind of Hyubso!(D'OH!)

    However you guys define it, you DO have to have some type of operating
    system first, before installing and running
    either Geos or Windows 3.1 (these were operating systems that had to
    run on top of another operating system).
    I think you could even have FreeDOS installed first and either of
    these would be functional.

    - Dana



    Jens-Michael Gross wrote in message news:<3F608DAF.9C47A52B@grossibaer.de>...
    > Bob schrieb:
    > >
    > > "Jens-Michael Gross" wrote in message
    > > news:3F5F37C4.9B324384@grossibaer.de...
    > > >
    > > > But you're wroong: geos don't need a OS to boot, it needs a file zsystem
    > > > to boot.

    >
    > > > Grossibaer

    > >
    > > OK. I have a PC w/out an OS. I press the power-on button and the System ROM
    > > BIOS does its' thing. My drive is partitioned and has a file system on it.
    > > At the end of the ROM BIOS execution my monitor displays a message similar
    > > to; "Invaild System Disk." Hmmm. I have GEOS installed. You said I don't

    > > need an OS to load and run GEOS. How come it don't work??
    What am I missing?
    > > Oh wait...I know. AN OS! (Was your Computer Science degree
    via
    > > correspondence courses?)
    >
    > Well, if you have an original IBM PC, then you'll get a basic
    > interpreter if there is no other OS on the HD or disk.
    > And for interpreting a filesystem, you don't need an OS. All you
    need is
    > a little it of code that identifies the position of a file and
    load the
    > data. And a little bit more code to actually write files.
    > Reading data from a partition (actually ReiserFS in my case) is a
    job
    > GRUBS does every bootup. Without any OS loaded.
    > And how does DR-Dos load IBMBIO.SYS, the OS kernel I/O part, or
    > IBMDOS.SYS, the DOS part of DR-Dos, without having the DOS
    already
    > loaded? Imagine, it can locate nd load these files even if you
    move them
    > on the partition. Without rewriting the boot code.
    > Strange. Must be a magical trick, like pulling yourself out of
    the mud
    > on your own hairs.
    >
    > I said, GEOS just needs a file system driver. DOS provides this
    in a
    > very vconvenient way, so GEOS was designed to use it. It could be
    > anything else providing similar access.
    >
    > One could even rewrite the GEOS loader to provide the file system
    access
    > on its own and boot directly from MBR. But why should one do
    this? Who
    > would be so stupid to remove compatibility with other OS just to
    meet
    > your (also stupid) criteria for something being an OS or not?
    > Well, maybe you, definitely not I.
    >
    > Grossibaer

  15. Re: You Don't Need A OS To Load GEOS - was - Re: HIMEM.SYS and other ramblings..was - Re: Who's on first? FREEOE Spell Checker and other ramblings from the incompetent mind of Hyubso!(D'OH!)

    "Dana Sindell" wrote in message
    news:538f8989.0309111614.6322863b@posting.google.c om...
    > However you guys define it, you DO have to have some type of operating
    > system first, before installing and running
    > either Geos or Windows 3.1 (these were operating systems that had to
    > run on top of another operating system).
    > - Dana


    Honestly? Once those GUI's are "running" I would easily state that they are
    OS's at that point. My only contention is getting from point A, (MBR/DBR),
    to point B, (loading an OS and then "loading" either GEOS or Win 3.x - ME).

    I have always said that GEOS should have it's own DBR loaders. They would
    simply do the same BIOS as IO.SYS, MSDOS.SYS, (place name here), files do.
    GEOSIO.SYS, GEOS.SYS, GEOCMD.COM



  16. Re: HIMEM.SYS and other ramblings..was - Re: Who's on first? FREEOESpell Checker and other ramblings from the incompetent mind ofHyubso!(D'OH!)

    Bob schrieb:
    >
    > "Jens-Michael Gross" wrote in message
    > news:3F608BDF.CB982371@grossibaer.de...
    > >
    > > In your opinion, GEOS is just a DOS program.

    >
    > > Grossibaer

    >
    > EXACTLY! Finally you have learned!


    That's the explanation: you cannot read! Maybe if you could, you'd
    understand more of what we write.

    I wrote: 'IN YOUR OPINION'. Well, okay, I learned that this is your
    opinion. But I didn't 'finally' learn it, I know this for years.

    And as usual, you ignored evere evidence of you being wrong. What a
    wonderfiul workd this must be: everyone but you is a fool. Well, I've
    heard of this world. It is full of rooms with rubber walls and people
    with white clothes around.

    Grossibaer

    --
    Take a class. Read a book. Don't expect computers to be simple, because
    they are not.

  17. Re: You Don't Need A OS To Load GEOS - was - Re: HIMEM.SYS and other ramblings..was - Re: Who's on first? FREEOE Spell Checker and other ramblings from the incompetent mind of Hyubso!(D'OH!)

    Bob wrote-

    "I have always said that GEOS should have it's own DBR loaders. They
    would
    simply do the same BIOS as IO.SYS, MSDOS.SYS, (place name here), files
    do.
    GEOSIO.SYS, GEOS.SYS, GEOCMD.COM "

    That would be a good idea if the programmers of GEOS would add thos
    DBR loaders. Isn't GEOS still the property of
    Geoworks or did Breadbox purchase all rites? I haven't followed this
    newsgroup since New Deal's demise. I know
    Breadbox is releasing a version of GEOS, but I do not know if Geoworks
    sold all rites. It would be great if Breadbox
    could reprogram GEOS. They could have those DBR loaders added and,
    maybe, could revamp GEOS as a 32 bit operating system. Is that
    possible?


    - Dana






    "Bob" wrote in message news:...
    > "Dana Sindell" wrote in message
    > news:538f8989.0309111614.6322863b@posting.google.c om...
    > > However you guys define it, you DO have to have some type of operating
    > > system first, before installing and running
    > > either Geos or Windows 3.1 (these were operating systems that had to
    > > run on top of another operating system).
    > > - Dana

    >
    > Honestly? Once those GUI's are "running" I would easily state that they are
    > OS's at that point. My only contention is getting from point A, (MBR/DBR),
    > to point B, (loading an OS and then "loading" either GEOS or Win 3.x - ME).
    >
    > I have always said that GEOS should have it's own DBR loaders. They would
    > simply do the same BIOS as IO.SYS, MSDOS.SYS, (place name here), files do.
    > GEOSIO.SYS, GEOS.SYS, GEOCMD.COM


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