known bug in sun's ensemble installer - GEOS

This is a discussion on known bug in sun's ensemble installer - GEOS ; "Ray Kopczynski" wrote in message news:20030809122747.05032.00001153@mb-m26.aol.com... > In no way am I trying to. I'm simply saying that Geos does suffice for some > people -- and as long as it does, that is their choice. Agreed! > What the ...

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Thread: known bug in sun's ensemble installer

  1. Re: known bug in sun's ensemble installer


    "Ray Kopczynski" wrote in message
    news:20030809122747.05032.00001153@mb-m26.aol.com...

    > In no way am I trying to. I'm simply saying that Geos does suffice for

    some
    > people -- and as long as it does, that is their choice.


    Agreed!

    > What the rest of the world clamors for because of marketing issues -- is
    > irrelevant. The "whole multimedia experience" isn't for eveyone by any

    stretch
    > of the imagination.


    NO, Its about applications that suddenly become feasible because the OS and
    hardware can make it happen, today. The world is a fast moving stream of new
    technology. All of it is marketed and hyped. All of it! Only some of it is
    successful. What makes the tiny few a winner? The application meets the
    needs of users, who increasingly demand it. GEOS used to meet the needs of
    users when a slick Word Processor on a 286 raised eyebrows. For some (you),
    maybe it still does. But for the vast majority, it does not.

    > << Its over for GEOS, Raybo. Stop dreaming about the past. >>
    >
    > You have yet to articulate a material reason to require folks to move into
    > higher-end equipment & software if they do not have the desire nor the

    need to
    > do so.


    Ray, I would venture to say that most GEOS users already have high end PCs
    that run Windows XP. They may also have low end PCs, as second or third
    generation equipment. Maybe they are hobby machines or have nostalgia value.
    The highend computers are what they decided to acquire for what ever reason.
    Bottom Line: They have a platform that has increased their computing
    experience and potential way beyond the dated applications bundled with
    Ensemble.

    > I also drive a 30-year old 1973 SAAB Sonett III. Quite functional, good
    > looking, and does what I need it to do. (Get me from point A to B.) So,

    tell
    > me again why I need a new vehicle with more HP, GPS, CD-changer,
    > air-conditioning, etc...


    You and a handful of users may love your retro computing lifestyle, but do
    not include the vast majority of others who use computers for far more than
    GEOS can provide. With GEOS, we're talking about a population of serious
    users that is infinitesmally small. Just like those who would keep an old
    car in the garage as their primary transportation. I'm not talking about a
    second hobby vehicle next to the SUV. Just like those P3 or P4 users who
    have their old 286 in the cellar running GEOS. Not too many GEOS users with
    a 286 as the ONLY PC.

    > << Why use Windows at all? Why not Linux, then you can be 100% Microsoft

    free.
    > >>

    >
    > ?? I do not recall *ever*(!) saying that I wished to be MS-free.


    Medic, Medic. I just had a burning sensation in my chest. ROTFL!

    > Umm-- You didn't read what I said earlier. I'll re-quote myself: "If you
    > have/wish to start with all the bells and whistles -- and can afford to do

    so
    > -- and have someone willing to hold your hand during the learning curve --

    by
    > all means, start higher."


    NOTE: We're talking kids.

    Ray, do you really believe that a kid needs more hand holding learning
    Windows, for example, than GEOS?

    Point, Click, Duhhhhhh!

    > Stating that the numbers are "statistically insignificant" who know

    nothing
    > about computers -- is a judgement call on your part. I talk/deal with

    those
    > folks on a *daily* basis here at the local State of Oregon Employment
    > Department. I'll categorically state that at least 50% of the customers do

    not
    > have a *clue* as to how to use a PC of any kind and are in big trouble

    when we
    > tell them that the majority of employers won't even allow them the

    opportunity
    > to fill out an application until they submit a resume -- done on a PC.


    Your example is an isolated case. There happens to be a gap in the
    population of computer illiterates but its being filled in by the next
    generation coming up, fast. And like I said in the past, most kids are
    trained by their school or learn on their own, how to use a Windows, Linux
    or Mac system. I couldn't imagine this being a problem in the future.

    > To deny them an opportunity to have/acquire a PC of *any* flavor Mac,

    Linux,
    > MS, BeOS, Geos - regardless - sure smacks of elitism in my book for sure!

    They
    > would be happy to have any PC of any kind...


    Again, you're discussing a subset of the aging population of citizens
    (assuming their legal) who fell through the cracks. Also, if they want a job
    that requires the use of a PC, you know its going to be almost 100% Windows.
    If you are ignorant of that fact, then you are doing your clients a
    disservice by leading them astray.



  2. Re: known bug in sun's ensemble installer

    << The world is a fast moving stream of new technology. All of it is marketed
    and hyped. All of it! Only some of it is successful. >>

    Agreed. I (and many others) simply have no need to be on (or part of) that
    perpetually-moving process.

    << The application meets the needs of users, who increasingly demand it. >>

    BINGO! The magic bullet! If/when that that lightning bolt strikes me ("meets
    the needs of users..."), then I too will buy into that process.

    << GEOS used to meet the needs of users...For some...maybe it still does. But
    for the vast majority, it does not. >>

    Agreed -- I have never stated otherwise.

    << I would venture to say that most GEOS users already have high end PCs that
    run Windows XP. >>

    I disagree, but we'll never know...

    << They have a platform that has increased their computing experience and
    potential way beyond the dated applications bundled with Ensemble. >>

    This is way more probable than your above statement, but as before, we'll never
    know...

    << You and a handful of users may love your retro computing lifestyle, but do
    not include the vast majority of others who use computers for far more than
    GEOS can provide. >>

    Very accurate statement. Just don't denigrate those of us who choose to use
    software and/or hardware that doesn't match your expectations.





  3. Re: known bug in sun's ensemble installer

    "Bob" wrote in
    news:rMbZa.72013$cF.22715@rwcrnsc53:

    > And when did I post one? Never! So you reply is totally meaningless as
    > it references nothing. D'OH!


    Damn Bob, can't even poke a little fun at you, you're freaking wound up
    tighter than Ft Knox! Maybe it's time for you to go fishing for a weekend
    or something, let go of things for a bit, relax, chill, take a break...
    Something!

    -Garrett


  4. Re: known bug in sun's ensemble installer

    Hehehe - don't confuse me with the facts, my mind's made up!

    I'll tell ya Pat, I've never defended anything that Clive or NewDeal has
    done and I'm not about to start now. But attributing the demise of COG
    and the formation of COGM to ND in the face of the RFDs that Ray pointed
    us to borders on the ridiculous. Shag started the process in '94 before
    ND even existed. Lee followed through when AOL and Geoworks parted
    company and the AOL Geoworks Forum went away. And a large majority of
    COG users voted for the change to COGM/COGP. And as Steve Main might
    say, the change was a "good thing".

    It really is just that simple.

    John ;-)


    Pat wrote:
    > John,
    >
    > This has been discussed in the past and a Google search will unearth some
    > spirited back and forth on the subject, but I have my personal opinion of
    > what happened and its been expressed in COGM before.
    >
    >
    >
    > "John Howard" wrote in message
    > news:vjabbtga51247b@corp.supernews.com...
    >
    >>
    >>Pat wrote:
    >>
    >>>COG was orphaned when ND killed it and started COGM. How long will it be
    >>>before this ng is left abandoned, adrift at sea?
    >>>

    >>
    >>Hmmmm.... Pat, you're generally reasonably correct when you talk about
    >>Geos history, but I think you missed the mark on the above statement. I
    >>don't recall ND having anything to do with any newsgroup realignment.
    >>I'm not even sure that ND existed when the realignment happened, but I
    >>won't bet the ranch on that point.
    >>
    >>I do, however, recall that at some point after Geoworks ended their
    >>relationship with AOL and the Geos Forum went away (sometime in '97?)
    >>our main forum became COG. There was a fair amout of programming
    >>chatter and it was the consensus of subscribers that we split off the
    >>programming stuff to a new group - COGP. At some point the discussion
    >>went toward making COG go away and aligning the COG groups into COGM and
    >>COGP to more closely resemble other OS newsgroups alignments. If memory
    >>serves, Lee Grant (a fellow SDK GeoRep) aka CamiLee was the guy who
    >>volunteered to do all the legwork to make this happen (submit the
    >>paperwork, coordinate the required voting, etc). After all the proper
    >>discussion and voting periods COG was abandoned and COGM & COGP were born.
    >>
    >>BTW, I was just IMing Lee last week. He's still around and said that he
    >>even lurks here now and again. So Lee, if you're out there maybe you
    >>can let us know if my memory on this stuff is close to the way it
    >>happened. I know that there are others here who where around back then
    >>and may be able to recall how this all happened.
    >>
    >>John ;-)
    >>

    >
    >
    >



  5. Re: known bug in sun's ensemble installer

    Not uptight at all. It is only when u take a cheap shot I must point out
    that your shot missed the mark entirely.

    "Garrett" wrote in message
    news:Xns93D2E2CF89AD0logicalboxhotmailcom@206.127. 4.25...
    > "Bob" wrote in
    > news:rMbZa.72013$cF.22715@rwcrnsc53:
    >
    > > And when did I post one? Never! So you reply is totally meaningless as
    > > it references nothing. D'OH!

    >
    > Damn Bob, can't even poke a little fun at you, you're freaking wound up
    > tighter than Ft Knox! Maybe it's time for you to go fishing for a weekend
    > or something, let go of things for a bit, relax, chill, take a break...
    > Something!
    >
    > -Garrett
    >




  6. Re: known bug in sun's ensemble installer

    On Sat, 09 Aug 2003 10:21:05 -0700, John Howard
    wrote:

    >
    >
    >Pat wrote:
    >> COG was orphaned when ND killed it and started COGM. How long will it be
    >> before this ng is left abandoned, adrift at sea?


    ND had nothing to do with the shift from COG to COGM.
    Johns description of it is correct.

    Mvh Helene

    >Hmmmm.... Pat, you're generally reasonably correct when you talk about
    >Geos history, but I think you missed the mark on the above statement. I
    >don't recall ND having anything to do with any newsgroup realignment.
    >I'm not even sure that ND existed when the realignment happened, but I
    >won't bet the ranch on that point.
    >
    >I do, however, recall that at some point after Geoworks ended their
    >relationship with AOL and the Geos Forum went away (sometime in '97?)
    >our main forum became COG. There was a fair amout of programming
    >chatter and it was the consensus of subscribers that we split off the
    >programming stuff to a new group - COGP. At some point the discussion
    >went toward making COG go away and aligning the COG groups into COGM and
    >COGP to more closely resemble other OS newsgroups alignments. If memory
    >serves, Lee Grant (a fellow SDK GeoRep) aka CamiLee was the guy who
    >volunteered to do all the legwork to make this happen (submit the
    >paperwork, coordinate the required voting, etc). After all the proper
    >discussion and voting periods COG was abandoned and COGM & COGP were born.
    >
    >BTW, I was just IMing Lee last week. He's still around and said that he
    >even lurks here now and again. So Lee, if you're out there maybe you
    >can let us know if my memory on this stuff is close to the way it
    >happened. I know that there are others here who where around back then
    >and may be able to recall how this all happened.
    >
    >John ;-)



  7. Re: known bug in sun's ensemble installer


    "Ray Kopczynski" wrote in message
    news:20030810001647.23687.00001814@mb-m27.aol.com...
    > << The application meets the needs of users, who increasingly demand it.
    >>

    >
    > BINGO! The magic bullet! If/when that that lightning bolt strikes me

    ("meets
    > the needs of users..."), then I too will buy into that process.


    Do you use Windows apps, that a native mode GEOS app can not accomplish the
    same goal, or where the GEOS app does not exist?

    > << I would venture to say that most GEOS users already have high end PCs

    that run Windows XP. >>
    >
    > I disagree, but we'll never know...


    Old computers are more wasteful of electricity use than new ones. Also, its
    plain impossible to find ISA bus parts any more. Yes, you can definitely
    find anything you want if you like hard enough. I guess that goes for buying
    buggy whips. But its just not convenient to maintain an old piece of iron.
    Hell, these things are not living breathing pets or human beings, they are
    old computers that wear out and eventually become door stops. Lok, I am
    talking about the vast majority. Everytime I make a statement you tend to
    personalize it. In your case, the general rule gets broken.




  8. Re: known bug in sun's ensemble installer

    "Bob" wrote in
    newsOuZa.79097$Oz4.18350@rwcrnsc54:

    > Not uptight at all. It is only when u take a cheap shot I must point
    > out that your shot missed the mark entirely.


    Well if it was cheap, I only borrowed it from you, so yours must have been
    cheap also. Well anyway, not going to play with Bob anymore, he's got
    something stuck up his anal orafice that seems to be constricting his
    ability to enjoy life and have a little fun now and then.

    -Garrett

  9. Re: known bug in sun's ensemble installer

    << Do you use Windows apps, that a native mode GEOS app can not accomplish the
    same goal, or where the GEOS app does not exist? >>

    As I have *repeatedly* stated, I do so every day. Why do you
    incessantly insist upon thinking that I wish to not do so?

    << Old computers are more wasteful of electricity use than new ones. Also, its
    plain impossible to find ISA bus parts any more. >>

    I C -- It's a "high end" computer if it doesn't have an ISA bus...

    << But its just not convenient to maintain an old piece of iron. >>

    Ummm -- You are assuming that that "old piece of iron" has broken down...
    If/when that happens, and I then cannot easily acquire the piece I need -- then
    I will obviously have to get a newer piece of hardware. But I will rue the day
    when I will be required to get the latest and greatest simply because it is
    100% throw-away components that cannot be upgraded.

    << Lok (sic), I am talking about the vast majority. Everytime I make a
    statement you tend to personalize it. >>

    I agree! I've been talking principle and equating that to my personal
    experience.

    Ray



  10. Re: known bug in sun's ensemble installer

    On Sun, 10 Aug 2003 22:48:09 UTC, gwrepray@aol.com (Ray Kopczynski)
    wrote:

    ><< Old computers are more wasteful of electricity use than new ones.

    Also, its
    > plain impossible to find ISA bus parts any more. >>
    >
    > I C -- It's a "high end" computer if it doesn't have an ISA bus...


    Don't tell SuperMicro....

    http://www.supermicro.com/PRODUCT/Mo.../875/P4SCA.htm

    --
    Regards,
    Doug

    **** remove leading g for email replies. ****

  11. Re: known bug in sun's ensemble installer

    Hehe -- Good-easy find Doug...

    Ray

    >Subject: Re: known bug in sun's ensemble installer
    >From: "Doug Fitzpatrick" gdfitzpat@telus.net
    >Date: 8/10/03 9:44 PM Pacific Daylight Time
    >Message-id:
    >
    >On Sun, 10 Aug 2003 22:48:09 UTC, gwrepray@aol.com (Ray Kopczynski)
    >wrote:
    >
    >><< Old computers are more wasteful of electricity use than new ones.

    >Also, its
    >> plain impossible to find ISA bus parts any more. >>
    >>
    >> I C -- It's a "high end" computer if it doesn't have an ISA bus...

    >
    >Don't tell SuperMicro....
    >
    >http://www.supermicro.com/PRODUCT/Mo.../875/P4SCA.htm
    >
    >--
    >Regards,
    >Doug
    >
    >**** remove leading g for email replies. ****



  12. Re: known bug in sun's ensemble installer

    Aren't u the passionate one?? Whew! Calling the kettle black?

    "Garrett" wrote in message
    news:Xns93D3AB7432074logicalboxhotmailcom@206.127. 4.25...
    > "Bob" wrote in
    > news:IFzZa.115363$Ho3.15041@sccrnsc03:
    >
    > > tsk, tsk. you're really best off not to play with me. you are correct
    > > on that. unless of course you enjoy sounding like a moron?

    >
    > Actually, you're the only one sounding like a moron here.... It's easy to
    > see, since you're the one who professes that the desktop is dead, but yet
    > people are still here using it, and occasionally some new users pick up on
    > it, you blast people for trying to do anything with it, you constantly

    pick
    > on the desktop and have basically nothing good to say in this group and

    are
    > generally just wasting bandwidth and time here.
    >
    > What even makes you look more like a moron, is that after all the bashing
    > you do, you're still here! Why? You don't like it, you say it's dead,

    but
    > yet, you're still here! There's no legit excuse for this at all. A

    couple
    > years ago someone made a good excuse for you, but time has worn that

    excuse
    > out now, and now it's just obvious that you're a spiteful person who has
    > nothing better to do in life than to sit around pissing people off to gain
    > the attention that you seem to be lacking at home or generally in your
    > personal life.
    >
    > Dood! get a Pet Rock, a Furby, something that gives you the attention you
    > need... Then again, the Pet Rock would probably run away screaming because
    > you're a freaking nut case and the Furby would commit suicide... LOL!
    >
    > Well it's your choice of course, and no one is going to stop you from

    being
    > the anal retentive female dog in heat that you are, but at least once
    > people see a few posts from you, they realize that you're some whacko

    moron
    > who trolls this group.
    >
    > At least I'm here because I enjoy Ensemble or NDO, and still use it. :-)
    >
    > Good day and best regards,
    > -Garrett




  13. Re: known bug in sun's ensemble installer


    "Ray Kopczynski" wrote in message
    news:20030810184809.19750.00000412@mb-m23.aol.com...
    > I C -- It's a "high end" computer if it doesn't have an ISA bus...


    Never said that but now that I think about it I'd say that generally
    speaking the realization that the ISA bus is crapola in the 21st Century
    definitely applies. It doesn't belong in a modern PC. In fact, the
    regulation (1.44/2.88) floppy drive shouldn't exist any longer, IMHO.

    > Ummm -- You are assuming that that "old piece of iron" has broken down...
    > If/when that happens, and I then cannot easily acquire the piece I need --

    then
    > I will obviously have to get a newer piece of hardware. But I will rue the

    day
    > when I will be required to get the latest and greatest simply because it

    is
    > 100% throw-away components that cannot be upgraded.


    I am saying that you'll get far more PC for less money than you paid for the
    old iron. Most people have upgraded or dumped the old stuff, or let it
    gather dust in the cellar.




  14. Re: known bug in sun's ensemble installer

    If you bothered to download the PDF file of the manual, you'd notice that
    there is only one model based on that board design with 3 ISA slots and ONLY
    4 PCI slots, the other one has no ISA slots, because its a joke and this
    mobo is just catering to some niche users who have some specialty need for
    an old card and app. Its not aimed at some jerk who wants to slap a 28.8
    kbps ISA modem card in there when a PCI modem card would work perfectly
    well. Its really aimed at a company that has an ISA card that does, for
    example, meter reading and has a custom driver done for it 10 years ago.
    I've been involved in such systems for municipalities.

    Its the exception that proves the rule. ISA slots in modern motherboards is
    a dinosaur. To dredge up a few of obscure models that support ISA is like
    pointing to a 100 year old man who is a 3 pack a day smoker and telling me
    that its ok to smoke.



    "Doug Fitzpatrick" wrote in message
    news:Ip5dQMbWjEcZ-pn2-B9sxzcxuUHxI@localhost...
    > On Sun, 10 Aug 2003 22:48:09 UTC, gwrepray@aol.com (Ray Kopczynski)
    > wrote:
    >
    > ><< Old computers are more wasteful of electricity use than new ones.

    > Also, its
    > > plain impossible to find ISA bus parts any more. >>
    > >
    > > I C -- It's a "high end" computer if it doesn't have an ISA bus...

    >
    > Don't tell SuperMicro....
    >
    > http://www.supermicro.com/PRODUCT/Mo.../875/P4SCA.htm
    >
    > --
    > Regards,
    > Doug
    >
    > **** remove leading g for email replies. ****




  15. Re: known bug in sun's ensemble installer

    << I am saying that you'll get far more PC for less money than you paid for the
    old iron. >>

    I agree -- That has been a key "mainstay" in the entire hardware industry since
    Day-1... Which is exactly why I leapfrogged 386's and went directly to a 486
    from my 286. When my machine finally tanked, and pieces were not readily
    available, I then move to a relatively current generation of hardware. Same
    think will happen again when my K62-500 dies...

    But as long as my PC works well and I have no need to spend the money on newer
    hardware, it sure seems ludicrous to me to simply go out and buy it because
    it's available...

    Ray



  16. Re: known bug in sun's ensemble installer


    "Ray Kopczynski" wrote in message
    news:20030812092650.07569.00000608@mb-m18.aol.com...

    > But as long as my PC works well and I have no need to spend the money on

    newer
    > hardware, it sure seems ludicrous to me to simply go out and buy it

    because
    > it's available...


    Once upon a time, all cars in America used leaded gas. They worked fine but
    were environmentally behind the eight ball, although legal back then and
    legal now. In addition, under some state laws it would not pass inspection
    unless it had a special plate. Those ancient leaded gas guzzlers ran just
    fine and one would get you to and from the grocery store or haul things from
    point A to point B. So why replace it? If its a collector's car or a hobby
    vehicle, you might not want to ever replace it. But if its a vehicle for
    general use it would be "envronmentally the right thing to do" if we all
    disposed of those heaping wrecks of power thursty PCs with their
    deteriorating electronic parts. Some states are grinding old PCs into
    compounds that are used to fill pot holes. No kidding!

    Verdict: Get off your fat posterior and let the butterflies out of that
    billfold of yours and help spark the economy, or is that against your
    religion?



  17. Re: known bug in sun's ensemble installer

    << But if its a vehicle for general use it would be "envronmentally the right
    thing to do" if we all
    disposed of those heaping wrecks of power thursty PCs with their deteriorating
    electronic parts...let the butterflies out of that billfold of yours and help
    spark the economy... >>

    LOL! IC -- the whole issue boils down to the fact that you perceive I'm too
    cheap to go buy something I don't need.

    Hehe -- While that may be true for moi, it still doesn't account for those who
    simply can't afford to upgrade their PC's. :-)

    Ray



  18. Re: known bug in sun's ensemble installer

    Hey Raybo,

    What do say to these upstarts who want an MP3 player for their GEOS. Isn't
    that against the GEOS mantra of GeoWrite, GeoWrite, GeoWrite!


    "Ray Kopczynski" wrote in message
    news:20030812210104.18517.00001227@mb-m18.aol.com...
    > << But if its a vehicle for general use it would be "envronmentally the

    right
    > thing to do" if we all
    > disposed of those heaping wrecks of power thursty PCs with their

    deteriorating
    > electronic parts...let the butterflies out of that billfold of yours and

    help
    > spark the economy... >>
    >
    > LOL! IC -- the whole issue boils down to the fact that you perceive I'm

    too
    > cheap to go buy something I don't need.
    >
    > Hehe -- While that may be true for moi, it still doesn't account for those

    who
    > simply can't afford to upgrade their PC's. :-)
    >
    > Ray
    >
    >




  19. Re: known bug in sun's ensemble installer

    << What do say to these upstarts who want an MP3 player for their GEOS. >>

    Exact same thing I've always told anyone -- "Find & use the the tool(s) that
    will accomplish what you need...no more, no less..."

    If you need/desire an MP3 player -- either make one work for/with Geos, or use
    one on an OS that will allow you to do so. A no-brainer IMO.

    Ray



  20. Re: known bug in sun's ensemble installer

    No more, no less. Geeeeez!

    Not everything is metered like a gas pump. Your entire life is surrounded by
    objects that have more than you consume or the opposite. This includes
    GEOS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    "Ray Kopczynski" wrote in message
    news:20030813203516.02452.00001341@mb-m21.aol.com...
    > << What do say to these upstarts who want an MP3 player for their GEOS. >>
    >
    > Exact same thing I've always told anyone -- "Find & use the the tool(s)

    that
    > will accomplish what you need...no more, no less..."
    >
    > If you need/desire an MP3 player -- either make one work for/with Geos, or

    use
    > one on an OS that will allow you to do so. A no-brainer IMO.
    >
    > Ray
    >
    >




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