GIS DEVELOPER/ CONTRACT/ WI - GEOS

This is a discussion on GIS DEVELOPER/ CONTRACT/ WI - GEOS ; "Exegete" wrote in message news:40971edd_5@corp.newsgroups.com... > No, I don't think I am. See below. BTW - the first iMacs came with USB > standard. As I recall Firewire wasn't ready yet. Besides the discussion > concerned packages, not a standard ...

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Thread: GIS DEVELOPER/ CONTRACT/ WI

  1. Re: Running PC/GEOS under OS/2 (it works fine).


    "Exegete" wrote in message
    news:40971edd_5@corp.newsgroups.com...


    > No, I don't think I am. See below. BTW - the first iMacs came with USB
    > standard. As I recall Firewire wasn't ready yet. Besides the discussion
    > concerned packages, not a standard for attaching various kinds of
    > devices. The Lemmings buy what's in the box.


    By that definition, we're all Lemming for buying groceries, petrol for our
    cars, and whatever else is marketed to the masses. Even though we have free
    will and the option to bake out own bread and brew our own fuel in the
    backyard still is an option. We might as well refuse to consume anything
    because its a plot. ROTFL!

    > No. I'm not that dumb.


    You're entitled to your opinion.

    > But many who buy Wintel machines are.
    > They aren't buying M$ because it's so good, they're buying it because
    > Dell is selling a machine that gets on the Internet for $500, or because
    > Walmart is selling a Wintel for somewhere around the same price. They
    > have never HEARD of Linux, Mach, or GEOS. Most have never even heard of
    > DOS. No Macs for sale at Walmart, but then, most people have no idea
    > that there is any competition.


    GEOS never graduated beyond being a cute little DOS suite of apps, best
    suited for low end PCs. Its communications and Internet software is second
    rate. I doubt many people take it seriously, I don't, do you? Regards Linux,
    its still too arcane for the most users. The tower of Babel of competing UI
    nonsense only impresses techs or those who think they are. In reality, Linux
    has failed on the desktop, all by itself. The Mac has penetrated 5% into the
    PC sales, and there are NO CLONES ALLOWED. Its a great package that carries
    a premium price, but most people don't want to. Therefore, the mainstream is
    clearly PCs and Windows, a fantastic combo.



  2. Re: Running PC/GEOS under OS/2 (it works fine).


    "Philippe" wrote in message
    news:40974121$0$721$5402220f@news.sunrise.ch...
    > USB and Firewire have many fundamental differences that are not apparent
    > to the end user until they reach the limits of the respective systems,
    > for example. In any case, you can not distinguish them by the ability to
    > plug and play, since both are.



    Sounds like something a politician would say. USB has dominated most
    peripherals, like scanners, still cameras, printers, et al. Firewire has
    done well in video and storage, although I am now seeing USB starting to
    dominate in add-on external hard drives and optical drives. Also, the video
    cameras were exclusively using Firewire for video exchange, and those that
    had USB were for still image transfers. With USB 2.0, even that is changing.
    However, Firewire has advanced in speed to 800Mbps. I use my Firewire for
    two purposes, capturing digital video from a camera, and transferring data
    between computers. But, now that Gigabit Ethernet has become affordable, I'm
    moving that function away from Firewire to Gigabit Ethernet. As I said
    before, the Firewire and USB work nicely together for what function demands
    them.



  3. Re: Running PC/GEOS under OS/2 (it works fine).



    Pat wrote:

    > "Exegete" wrote in message
    > news:40971edd_5@corp.newsgroups.com...
    >
    >
    >
    >>No, I don't think I am. See below. BTW - the first iMacs came with USB
    >>standard. As I recall Firewire wasn't ready yet. Besides the discussion
    >>concerned packages, not a standard for attaching various kinds of
    >>devices. The Lemmings buy what's in the box.

    >
    >
    > By that definition, we're all Lemming for buying groceries, petrol for our
    > cars, and whatever else is marketed to the masses. Even though we have free
    > will and the option to bake out own bread and brew our own fuel in the
    > backyard still is an option. We might as well refuse to consume anything
    > because its a plot. ROTFL!


    Not at all Pat. A Lemming might be someone, though, who bought all their
    groceries from something like Boston Market, where they had no, or
    little choice in menu selection and all the meals came prepared and
    precooked and delivered to your door. The opposite, of course, is the
    person who buys meat, veggies, fruits, etc and prepares their own meals
    from scratch.

    >
    >
    >>No. I'm not that dumb.

    >
    >
    > You're entitled to your opinion.


    But you evidently were, since the original post was perfectly clear to
    those who can read English at a high school level.
    >
    >
    >>But many who buy Wintel machines are.
    >>They aren't buying M$ because it's so good, they're buying it because
    >>Dell is selling a machine that gets on the Internet for $500, or because
    >>Walmart is selling a Wintel for somewhere around the same price. They
    >>have never HEARD of Linux, Mach, or GEOS. Most have never even heard of
    >>DOS. No Macs for sale at Walmart, but then, most people have no idea
    >>that there is any competition.

    >
    >
    > GEOS never graduated beyond being a cute little DOS suite of apps, best
    > suited for low end PCs. Its communications and Internet software is second
    > rate. I doubt many people take it seriously, I don't, do you?


    Well, we know your take on things. And it certainly isn't accurate
    unless you are willing to define Win 3.x through ME as "a little DOS
    suite of apps."

    Regards Linux,
    > its still too arcane for the most users. The tower of Babel of competing UI
    > nonsense only impresses techs or those who think they are. In reality, Linux
    > has failed on the desktop, all by itself.


    In the US. However, in other portions of the world it has an increasing
    % of the desktop. It does have it strengths and weaknesses.
    Nevertheless, it's better than Win and some tasks. And if PCs were sold
    at Walmart with Linux installed and pre configured, with a standard
    suite of apps, and the price were low enough, such machines would sell
    faster than the Win machines.

    The Mac has penetrated 5% into the
    > PC sales, and there are NO CLONES ALLOWED. Its a great package that carries
    > a premium price, but most people don't want to.


    The point is, of course, MOST people have no choice. MOST people buy
    from wholesalers and seek to pay the least for an "Internet ready
    computer." So, not the BEST, but the cheapest - and that's Windows.

    Therefore, the mainstream is
    > clearly PCs and Windows, a fantastic combo.


    Yeah, and a few years ago it was Yugos. Now it's KIA. Really fantastic too.

    Roy



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  4. Re: Running PC/GEOS under OS/2 (it works fine).



    Pat wrote:

    > "Philippe" wrote in message
    > news:40974121$0$721$5402220f@news.sunrise.ch...
    >
    >>USB and Firewire have many fundamental differences that are not apparent
    >>to the end user until they reach the limits of the respective systems,
    >>for example. In any case, you can not distinguish them by the ability to
    >>plug and play, since both are.

    >
    >
    >
    > Sounds like something a politician would say. USB has dominated most
    > peripherals, like scanners, still cameras, printers, et al. Firewire has
    > done well in video and storage, although I am now seeing USB starting to
    > dominate in add-on external hard drives and optical drives. Also, the video
    > cameras were exclusively using Firewire for video exchange, and those that
    > had USB were for still image transfers. With USB 2.0, even that is changing.
    > However, Firewire has advanced in speed to 800Mbps. I use my Firewire for
    > two purposes, capturing digital video from a camera, and transferring data
    > between computers. But, now that Gigabit Ethernet has become affordable, I'm
    > moving that function away from Firewire to Gigabit Ethernet. As I said
    > before, the Firewire and USB work nicely together for what function demands
    > them.
    >


    But that's not how the "mainstream" masses buy. So, once again, you
    missed, or ignored the point.

    IF I were your debate judge I'd take points off for that.

    Roy



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  5. Re: Running PC/GEOS under OS/2 (it works fine).

    ***While there might not be any disadvantage from a pure computing
    perspective (i.e., the relevancy to anything else running on a system,
    be it OS2, Linux, or Windows, or any other threading OS), the
    disadvantage is in the capability of the software to be competitive in
    today's market.

    Geos/ND/BB is a great product, no doubt. But it's still more akin to
    early versions of Win 3 in terms of support for other functions (CD
    burning, web surfing, etc) and I think that what the overwhelming
    majority of users want (as evidenced by their purchasing) is an
    "all-in-one" package that doesn't need to make them buy and learn a lot
    of different things. I think it was Holger that used to say that most PC
    buyers were stupid. While I'm not going to disagree (I'm not very people
    friendly this week ), I'd say that computers have moved out of the
    geek novelty niche market into the home appliance market. Nobody wants
    to learn electronics in order to work their home entertainment center,
    and few people anymore even get under the hood of their own cars.

    I'm going to stop here because I'm having some serious deja vu ;-)

    Tom

    ***


    Tom, the key to using any software is whether it does what you want it to do in
    a way you are satisfied and happy with. We don't all need one software makers
    idea of 'all' that we need. Doing it all (according to each persons desires) on
    one computer is helpful, though. Hence, I and many others run GEOS and Windows
    on the same computer.


    Chip Blank
    GUI
    GeoGrafix

    The GEOS Users International website is at:
    http://hometown.aol.com/GUIUSA/GUI_USA.html

  6. Re: Running PC/GEOS under OS/2 (it works fine).


    "Exegete" wrote in message
    news:40982896$1_5@corp.newsgroups.com...

    > Not at all Pat. A Lemming might be someone, though, who bought all their
    > groceries from something like Boston Market, where they had no, or
    > little choice in menu selection and all the meals came prepared and
    > precooked and delivered to your door. The opposite, of course, is the
    > person who buys meat, veggies, fruits, etc and prepares their own meals
    > from scratch.


    No problem. That market exists and has been satisfied online, by specialty
    stores, and no at CompUSA and MicroCenter, the two mega computer stores.
    Yesterday, I walked into MicroCenter, right down Memorial Drive from MIT,
    and was amazed how large the "Rool Your Own" PC sections has become. People
    who want to build their own systems. Also, the pre-packaged PCs are in the
    adjoining department, where you get pre-packaged PCs with Windows and Macs
    with OS-X. Everything under one roof. Does this work? Well, within a mile
    you have the campuses of MIT, Harvard, and BU. Lots of techie students who
    run every OS imaginable. Yes, it works!!!

    BTW, whenever I go to Boston Market, I always get a custom order, in case
    you've never been. If I don't want what they offer, I go to a Chinese,
    Italian, or another restaurant. Free choice, just like we all have. Lets end
    this BS about GEOS being shut out of the mainstream because its too good and
    was slam dunked by the dominant vendore. It shut itself out by the creators
    end-gaming it.

    > >>But many who buy Wintel machines are.
    > >>They aren't buying M$ because it's so good, they're buying it because
    > >>Dell is selling a machine that gets on the Internet for $500, or because
    > >>Walmart is selling a Wintel for somewhere around the same price. They
    > >>have never HEARD of Linux, Mach, or GEOS. Most have never even heard of
    > >>DOS. No Macs for sale at Walmart, but then, most people have no idea
    > >>that there is any competition.

    > >
    > >
    > > GEOS never graduated beyond being a cute little DOS suite of apps, best
    > > suited for low end PCs. Its communications and Internet software is

    second
    > > rate. I doubt many people take it seriously, I don't, do you?

    >
    > Well, we know your take on things. And it certainly isn't accurate
    > unless you are willing to define Win 3.x through ME as "a little DOS
    > suite of apps."


    To say that any OS that can support a DOS Virtual Machine (e.g. Windows 9X,
    ME) is really a DOS program, is ludicrous. Certainly, Windows 98/ME had its
    own native file system (FAT32) that liberated it from FAT16 limitations.
    Plus, the ability to multi-task GEOS (a little DOS app. IMHO) and other
    Win32 apps, above one megabyte of memory, with a flat addressing model, and
    ability to handle USB, Firewire, PnP, DSL and Cable connections, and many
    higher end OS primitives. Yet, its not as good as Windows XP or 2003 Server
    for handling more demaning applications, like Video editing.

    > In the US. However, in other portions of the world it has an increasing
    > % of the desktop. It does have it strengths and weaknesses.
    > Nevertheless, it's better than Win and some tasks. And if PCs were sold
    > at Walmart with Linux installed and pre configured, with a standard
    > suite of apps, and the price were low enough, such machines would sell
    > faster than the Win machines.


    The US drives the world market.


    > The point is, of course, MOST people have no choice. MOST people buy
    > from wholesalers and seek to pay the least for an "Internet ready
    > computer." So, not the BEST, but the cheapest - and that's Windows.


    Utter CRAPOLA!



  7. Re: Running PC/GEOS under OS/2 (it works fine).


    "Exegete" wrote in message
    news:40982902$1_5@corp.newsgroups.com...

    > But that's not how the "mainstream" masses buy. So, once again, you
    > missed, or ignored the point.


    NO! You completely miss the point that new products which companies market
    have an abysmal failure rate in the mainstream. A mega company that markets
    a new product (e.g. Virgin Cola) has no pre-ordained success, beyond its
    multi-million dollar ad campaigns. People buy based on a lot different
    parameters and one of them is weather the product(s) delivers what is
    promised. No product does that 100% of the time. Only products that, through
    trial and error, and refinement by the baptism of user acceptance can
    survive. For example, GEOS never delivered the punch it had on that initial
    release, where it was a critical success but could not repeat on
    too-late-to-market updates.

    The Mac is completely designed, built, and marketed by one company that will
    sue your butt if even think of building a clone. You can not deny that, its
    fact! However, the PC is the closest thing to a universal computer. It
    mostly comes pre-packaged by a dozen manufacturers, with Windows XP, but its
    also available in every imaginable flavor, from pre-build, custom built, to
    roll_your_own. If you want to swallow the kool-aid espoused by the lemmings
    who hang out here, then lay down over 50 bucks and take the computer ride
    back to 1990!




  8. Re: Running PC/GEOS under OS/2 (it works fine).



    Pat wrote:
    > "Exegete" wrote in message
    > news:40982896$1_5@corp.newsgroups.com...
    >
    >




    >>Well, we know your take on things. And it certainly isn't accurate
    >>unless you are willing to define Win 3.x through ME as "a little DOS
    >>suite of apps."

    >
    >
    > To say that any OS that can support a DOS Virtual Machine (e.g. Windows 9X,
    > ME)


    It isn't an OS, it's still an OE. It still used DOS to boot the machine.
    There was no DOS Virtual Machine - it was DOS, pure and simple.

    is really a DOS program, is ludicrous. Certainly, Windows 98/ME had its
    > own native file system (FAT32) that liberated it from FAT16 limitations.


    And there are versions of DOS today that have FAT32. So does that make
    them something other than DOS?

    > Plus, the ability to multi-task GEOS (a little DOS app. IMHO)


    GEOS, as you should have known, could do it's own multitasking, on a
    humble 8088.

    and other
    > Win32 apps,


    So GEOS is a Win32 app? That's what your grammar says.

    above one megabyte of memory, with a flat addressing model, and
    > ability to handle USB, Firewire, PnP, DSL and Cable connections, and many
    > higher end OS primitives. Yet, its not as good as Windows XP or 2003 Server
    > for handling more demaning applications, like Video editing.


    As M$ themselves say, Win9x was a 16 bit OS. Win2000/XP, being WinNT was
    natively a 32bit OS.
    >
    >
    >>In the US. However, in other portions of the world it has an increasing
    >>% of the desktop. It does have it strengths and weaknesses.
    >>Nevertheless, it's better than Win and some tasks. And if PCs were sold
    >>at Walmart with Linux installed and pre configured, with a standard
    >>suite of apps, and the price were low enough, such machines would sell
    >>faster than the Win machines.

    >
    >
    > The US drives the world market.


    Not always. An maybe not in the future. Europe is a bigger market, and
    Linux is taking off there. Remember, the Wintel monopoly was based on
    the PC's success in large businesses. As European governments move to
    Linux that could very well give Linux the desktop base to build upon.
    I'm not confident that it will, M$ won't sit on their hands. But, it could.

    >
    >
    >
    >>The point is, of course, MOST people have no choice. MOST people buy
    >>from wholesalers and seek to pay the least for an "Internet ready
    >>computer." So, not the BEST, but the cheapest - and that's Windows.

    >
    >
    > Utter CRAPOLA!


    Well, we agree - Windows is crap.

    Roy
    >
    >




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  9. Re: Running PC/GEOS under OS/2 (it works fine).

    In news:20040505040910.10652.00000735@mb-m27.aol.com,
    C BLANK II informed us:

    | Nobody wants
    | to learn electronics in order to work their home entertainment center,
    | and few people anymore even get under the hood of their own cars.
    |
    | I'm going to stop here because I'm having some serious deja vu ;-)
    |
    | Tom
    |
    | ***
    |
    |
    | Tom, the key to using any software is whether it does what you want
    | it to do in a way you are satisfied and happy with. We don't all need
    | one software makers idea of 'all' that we need. Doing it all
    | (according to each persons desires) on one computer is helpful,
    | though. Hence, I and many others run GEOS and Windows on the same
    | computer.
    |

    Chip, I agree with you. I think it's safe to say that this group has a
    higher percentage of "tweakers" and perhaps some power users as well.
    Sometimes we want an "all in one" package, sometimes we want just one
    app. I think that the common, basic level users just want something that
    they can learn quickly and won't have too many confusing settings and
    options.

    That being said, why is there always some argument going on every time I
    visit this group? ;-)

    Tom




  10. Re: Running PC/GEOS under OS/2 (it works fine).

    In news:40980206.A21594F9@grossibaer.de,
    Jens-Michael Gross informed us:
    | Tom Accuosti schrieb:
    |
    ||| Granted. Query: Does it really communicate MORE? And how much time
    ||| was involved? Perhaps a simple Notepad .txt document would have
    ||| done the job. Granted, a serious business proposal or sales
    ||| document needs to be much more than a text file, and there are
    ||| times when one really needs to grab someone's attention. But I've
    ||| seen far too much time spent on creating and (trying) to read a
    ||| simple message buried under sound, graphics and fonts.
    ||
    ||
    || After I posted, I just *knew* that somebody would mention this,
    || although I was betting it would have been someone else.
    |
    | Could have been me

    Ah yes. Hello Jens - I had forgotten about the socialist arm of the
    group .

    |
    || This is a side issue, though, because if people *want* to make overly
    || large multi-part multimedia documents, then they should be allowed
    || to do so.
    |
    | Well, and since we got nuclear bombs, people have to be allowed to use
    | them agains their neighbours?
    | Well - highly overdrawn, but the same underlying argumentation.

    There is sometimes a flaw in using an extreme example of an argument
    because it can detract from the issue at hand. The issue (as I see it)
    is that some people want the capability to put together multi-media
    documents. If they beleive that it will enhance their reports or
    presentations, and nobody tells them otherwise, then I don't see the
    harm.

    Well... unless you can measure their productivity against their time
    invested in building such documents. If someone spends an hour on a
    normal report, and two hours on an enhanced report, will the company get
    the benefit of that extra hour, or would he have been better off doing
    two "boring" reports? None of us have any idea, because there are too
    many other variables. I'd say we let him make them up and let his boss
    decide!


    || We don't have to *like* them .
    |
    | Unfortunately we have to endure them.

    True. I get tired of people who make up 2mb Powerpoint full of pics with
    kids and puppies in a field of flowers in order to send a simple "hope
    you're doing well" message. But I'll admit that I prefer getting right
    to the message, and I can see that many people seem to like that kind of
    glurgy stuff. So I endure it the way I endure commercials and political
    ads and a flu virus.

    |
    || OTOH, I know someone who has a
    || standard format for certain reports that are linked to constantly
    || updated spreadsheets, so when the reports are viewed they have
    || up-to-date bar graphs and pie charts, which certainly cuts down on
    || those last minute changes by the pointy-haired bosses who love to
    || see those things.
    |
    | Nice thing. Indeed. Where it fits.
    | But getting a simple office note 'please call me back' as a 500KB PDF
    | with all bells and whistles does surely not fit.
    | And this is a real example - and the normal case and not the
    | exception.

    Okay, here's a good example. A quick text email would do well, but some
    people work in a networked office where sending and recieving such files
    are essentially meaningless because the infrastructure is invisibile to
    them. I work in a business that's out in dial-up country, with phone
    lines that were installed by Samuel Morse :-0

    I can't tell you how many times I've emailed people back to let them
    know that I don't take those big, honkin' downloads. But the truth is,
    I'm slowly becoming a minority user as more businesses get T1 lines, and
    many home offices (and even home users) get cable and dsl connections.

    In some respects, this is like when we switched from straight ASCII to
    WYSIWYG graphics and went TrueType crazy (Or PS or Nimbus). It's an
    evolution made possible by technology.


    || Back in grad school, I had a prof who was always going on about this
    || or that journal. So I did a paper, but used some early desktop
    || publishing software ( I had Geos, but I ended up using Publish It!)
    || to format a paper to make it look as if it had been published in a
    || certain academic journal. Two columns, inset text boxes, etc. It
    || didn't give any more information than a typed double-spaced term
    || paper, but it looked as cool as hell, and she probably marked it up
    || a few extra points just for the novelty.
    |
    | Maybe - and if, then just because she didn't know that the program
    | made the work and not you

    Oh, of course she knew it was a program. I explained it to her, and she
    still thought it was cool, in part because I made some extra effort.


    | OTOH, you downgraded the work of your mates - which might have the
    | same information but then was rated less.
    | So what happened? Instead of learning the lessons, they had to buy
    | publishing software and learn how to use it, just to get the same
    | number of points.
    | Doesn't sound right, isn't right and unfortunately is a normal thing
    | these days.

    Jens, your attitude never ceases to amaze me! Maybe I've been spoiled by
    living in a capitalist, market driven economy.

    I didn't downgrade the work of my peers at all. Let's assume that you
    and I do exactly the same amount of research and turn in comparable
    papers. Yours is standard Courier typeface, double spaced and neatly
    stapled. Mine is enhanced with some graphics and a different format. If
    the prof gives me a few extra points, then it's well deserved because
    despite the fact that we put the same amount of work into the
    information, I *did* put a little more work into the formatting and
    presentation.

    If I put several hours of time that semester in learning DTP skills, why
    shouldn't I be compensated for that (in the form of a few extra points)?
    I'm assuming here that the students are all pretty much equal in
    brainpower and effort otherwise. In fact, maybe that's not such a great
    assumption: in every class, there are people who are brighter and some,
    well, less bright. If I've had exposre to the material before (which
    gives me an advantage), does that make it "not right" for me to get a
    better grade? If I'm single and can devote more hours of study over a
    married person with a family, does that make it "not right"?

    No, the other students learned the lessons - I just "raised the bar" as
    we say here. Not unlike how Win95 raised the bar in other areas.

    Tom



  11. Re: Running PC/GEOS under OS/2 (it works fine).

    Here in comp.os.geos.misc,
    "Tom Accuosti" spake unto us, saying:

    >That being said, why is there always some argument going on every time I
    >visit this group? ;-)


    What else is there to talk about?

    PC/GEOS simply doesn't break here. ;-)

    --
    -Rich Steiner >>>---> http://www.visi.com/~rsteiner >>>---> Eden Prairie, MN
    OS/2 + eCS + Linux + Win95 + DOS + PC/GEOS + Executor = PC Hobbyist Heaven!
    Applications analyst/designer/developer (14 yrs) seeking employment.
    See web site above for resume/CV and background.

  12. Re: Running PC/GEOS under OS/2 (it works fine).

    On 05 May 2004 08:09:10 GMT, cblankii@aol.com (C BLANK II) wrote:

    > I think it was Holger that used to say that most PC
    >buyers were stupid.


    No, it wasn't me.

    But you are right, nobody wants to get under the bonnet of their pc
    and just expects things to work. But somebody has to this in the first
    place and it can really be a pain to keep up with the ever new
    versions of Real Player, Netscape or what have you.

    Somehow, I came to the conclusion it is much easier to say:
    "Sorry, Ensemble will not do this." ;-)))


    Holger

  13. Re: Running PC/GEOS under OS/2 (it works fine).

    In news:409a0fbf.171598562@news.bris.ac.uk,
    Holger Laux informed us:
    | On 05 May 2004 08:09:10 GMT, cblankii@aol.com (C BLANK II) wrote:
    |
    || I think it was Holger that used to say that most PC
    || buyers were stupid.
    |
    | No, it wasn't me.

    I apologize, Holger - It was Jens.


    | But you are right, nobody wants to get under the bonnet of their pc
    | and just expects things to work.

    Yet, I dont' see this as a bad thing at all. It means that people are
    more accepting of computers as functional appliances, rather than as a
    geek toy. Few people tweak their DVD players, microwave ovens, or even
    their automobiles anymore.


    | But somebody has to this in the first
    | place and it can really be a pain to keep up with the ever new
    | versions of Real Player, Netscape or what have you.

    And frankly, I hate doing some of that myself. Once I've tweaked my box
    to run what I like, I'm loathe to screw with it... well, too much. ;-)

    |
    | Somehow, I came to the conclusion it is much easier to say:
    | "Sorry, Ensemble will not do this." ;-)))

    True. Hell, sometimes I tell people that Word or Excel is *not* the best
    program for them when they want to do_____.

    Tom



  14. Re: Running PC/GEOS under OS/2 (it works fine).



    Jens-Michael Gross wrote:

    >>
    >>After I posted, I just *knew* that somebody would mention this, although
    >>I was betting it would have been someone else.

    >
    >
    > Could have been me
    >
    >


    but certainly not me....


  15. Re: Running PC/GEOS under OS/2 (it works fine).



    Tom Accuosti wrote:
    >
    >
    > True. I get tired of people who make up 2mb Powerpoint full of pics with
    > kids and puppies in a field of flowers in order to send a simple "hope
    > you're doing well" message. But I'll admit that I prefer getting right
    > to the message, and I can see that many people seem to like that kind of
    > glurgy stuff. So I endure it the way I endure commercials and political
    > ads and a flu virus.





    weren't Powerpoint presentations responsible for bringing down the space
    shuttle last year??


  16. Re: Running PC/GEOS under OS/2 (it works fine).

    On 2004-05-03 21:48:37 -0500, "Pat" said:

    > Any banner. Makes no difference. Just as long as its pure throughout. I
    > remember, years ago, when AVID introduced a video editor for the Mac. It was
    > extremely advanced but AVID had elected to port their unix interface onto
    > the Mac. Although the product was considered a excellent, it failed because
    > of the lack of uniformity with the Mac User Interface semantics.


    Avid's video editor for the Mac is very successful. Avid's VideoShop
    has been around for a decade. Avid's Cinema Express was a good hobbyist
    video editor released for the AV PowerMacs. As far as I know Avid's
    current offerings are built mainly for studio professionals.

    bill

    --
    \/\/i||i@m ()\/e


  17. Re: Running PC/GEOS under OS/2 (it works fine).


    "William Ove" wrote in message
    news:409b07d1_1@newsfeed.slurp.net...
    > On 2004-05-03 21:48:37 -0500, "Pat" said:
    >
    > > Any banner. Makes no difference. Just as long as its pure throughout. I
    > > remember, years ago, when AVID introduced a video editor for the Mac. It

    was
    > > extremely advanced but AVID had elected to port their unix interface

    onto
    > > the Mac. Although the product was considered a excellent, it failed

    because
    > > of the lack of uniformity with the Mac User Interface semantics.

    >
    > Avid's video editor for the Mac is very successful. Avid's VideoShop
    > has been around for a decade. Avid's Cinema Express was a good hobbyist
    > video editor released for the AV PowerMacs. As far as I know Avid's
    > current offerings are built mainly for studio professionals.



    I was at MacWorld when Avid launched their first product on the Mac, and it
    was not popular because of the interface being inconsistent with the "Apple
    Approved" UI Guidelines. That spawned a redesign that improved the whole
    product on the Mac.



  18. Re: Running PC/GEOS under OS/2 (it works fine).


    "Exegete" wrote in message
    news:409908bf$1_5@corp.newsgroups.com...


    > GEOS, as you should have known, could do it's own multitasking, on a
    > humble 8088.


    Brian Dougherty did a pre-release demo of GEOS on an IBM XT. When I got the
    first release, I installed it on a Junker XT in our lab here in Cambridge.
    That was the most impressive thing about GEOS, its ability to install on a
    low end PC. I continue to marvel at that, while I simultaneously decry
    anyone who installs it on a PC that isn't the right fit. GEOS belongs on PCs
    that were targeted by Geoworks' and New Deal's business strategy: Low-End
    PCs! This was all documented and archived in AOL forum logs.

    > So GEOS is a Win32 app? That's what your grammar says.


    ROTFL!

    Roy, you've been drinking far too much coffee. But then again, what else do
    I expect from a non computer professional who relentlessly tries to use his
    limited knowledge of personal computers as a credential. Not!

    > As M$ themselves say, Win9x was a 16 bit OS. Win2000/XP, being WinNT was
    > natively a 32bit OS.


    Win95, 98, 98SE, ME, was a kaleidoscope of 16 and 32 bit OS components.
    Windows 95 had developer support for Win16 API, but Windows 98. 98SE, and ME
    dropped it. The old Win16 API calls are still supported, but the Win32 "new
    application development model" was the only one available in Visual Studio.
    Also, the Microsoft Programming Guidelines document clearly spelled out
    Win32 as the only programming model that Microsoft would support for new
    software development on Win 98, 98SE, and ME.

    > > The US drives the world market.

    >
    > Not always. An maybe not in the future. Europe is a bigger market, and
    > Linux is taking off there. Remember, the Wintel monopoly was based on
    > the PC's success in large businesses. As European governments move to
    > Linux that could very well give Linux the desktop base to build upon.
    > I'm not confident that it will, M$ won't sit on their hands. But, it

    could.

    Yeah, I'm really impressed by all the fine work hackers do in Europe.

    Ooooops, I'm forgetting SAP out of Germany. A real scam of a product that
    lots of big manufacturers swallowed and are paying through the nose to
    maintain. Anyone want to learn SAP's programming language?

    > Well, we agree - Windows is crap.


    If that were true, the majority of personal computers that run Windows,
    would belly up. Just the opposite.

    I wish you were at the Grand Opening of the Stata Center at MIT, and saw the
    diversity of computers, including a sizeable number of Windows systems doing
    all kinds of new applications, I think you'd be impressed, Roy. Nah, nothing
    would impress you!

    http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/nr/2004/stata-open.html




  19. Re: Running PC/GEOS under OS/2 (it works fine).



    Pat wrote:

    > "Exegete" wrote in message
    > news:409908bf$1_5@corp.newsgroups.com...
    >
    >
    >
    >>GEOS, as you should have known, could do it's own multitasking, on a
    >>humble 8088.

    >
    >
    > Brian Dougherty did a pre-release demo of GEOS on an IBM XT. When I got the
    > first release, I installed it on a Junker XT in our lab here in Cambridge.
    > That was the most impressive thing about GEOS, its ability to install on a
    > low end PC. I continue to marvel at that, while I simultaneously decry
    > anyone who installs it on a PC that isn't the right fit. GEOS belongs on PCs
    > that were targeted by Geoworks' and New Deal's business strategy: Low-End
    > PCs! This was all documented and archived in AOL forum logs.
    >
    >
    >>So GEOS is a Win32 app? That's what your grammar says.

    >
    >
    > ROTFL!
    >
    > Roy, you've been drinking far too much coffee. But then again, what else do
    > I expect from a non computer professional who relentlessly tries to use his
    > limited knowledge of personal computers as a credential. Not!
    >


    Tsk, tsk. A bit catty aren't we? And, as usual, when you've been caught
    lacking you make a deliberately untruthful personal attack. In this
    case, the point is that you should take a refresher course in English
    composition. Oh! Don't forget to take an ethics course too. Your
    veracity is lacking.

    Roy



    -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
    http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
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  20. Re: Running PC/GEOS under OS/2 (it works fine).

    Tom Accuosti schrieb:

    > || After I posted, I just *knew* that somebody would mention this,
    > || although I was betting it would have been someone else.
    > |
    > | Could have been me
    >
    > Ah yes. Hello Jens - I had forgotten about the socialist arm of the
    > group .


    Can't say I'm a socialist at all.
    I'm just aware of the end of the road I'm walking on.


    > There is sometimes a flaw in using an extreme example of an argument
    > because it can detract from the issue at hand.


    Indeed, people tend to be distracted from the truth in the words by the
    extreme picture.
    Maybe this is the reason why I'm a fairly good programmer and others
    not.
    A good programmer needs to keep an eye on the extremes. Or his program
    will fail as soon as someone comes with something unexpected.
    A lack of this is the main reason for all these buffer overflow bugs
    which let worms and virii in. Or crashes or whatever.

    > The issue (as I see it)
    > is that some people want the capability to put together multi-media
    > documents. If they beleive that it will enhance their reports or
    > presentations, and nobody tells them otherwise, then I don't see the
    > harm.


    The harm is done in two different sections. On the result level, they
    raise the expectations. While (besides some few occasions where it is
    useful) these 'improvoments' do not improve the usefulness of the
    result, the effort others need to put into their work is being raised as
    they are now measured by these multi-media documents. Same result, more
    work, less profit, bad. (kapitalistic enough for you?)

    The other harm is done to the community. Since these multi-media
    documents become more common, industry focuses on producing software for
    these kind of documents. So all who do not need them now are forced to
    change their systems (read: buy new, expensive software and hardware)
    just to be able to READ those documents.

    Real example: PDF documents.
    The original idea was to have a data format that allows distributing and
    reading documents across platforms. Good idea, good thing and good
    realisation.
    Then people asked for more features. Encryption, rights management,
    forms, whatever.
    Current PDF documents require Acrobat Reader V6.0 to be opened. And PDF
    creators will create documents in this format, even if the document
    contains plain text.
    The last verison of Acrobat reader for DOS was 1.0. Win3.1 has stopped
    with 3.x and 5.05 was the last version that runs under Win95. I think
    there is still a current verison for Linux and MacOS, but BeOS, NeXT and
    others are gone too.

    So the end is that the peoples demand of putting this and that into PDF
    files has spoiled the good idea to something that isn't much more than a
    native WORD document - which can also only be read on a few platforms
    where the latest versions of MS-Office are running.

    > Well... unless you can measure their productivity against their time
    > invested in building such documents. If someone spends an hour on a
    > normal report, and two hours on an enhanced report, will the company get
    > the benefit of that extra hour, or would he have been better off doing
    > two "boring" reports? None of us have any idea, because there are too
    > many other variables. I'd say we let him make them up and let his boss
    > decide!


    Unfortunately the Boss often has no clue.
    Or sends himself short notes that would fit into an ICQ message as 2MB
    Word documents.

    > || We don't have to *like* them .
    > |
    > | Unfortunately we have to endure them.
    >
    > True. I get tired of people who make up 2mb Powerpoint full of pics with
    > kids and puppies in a field of flowers in order to send a simple "hope
    > you're doing well" message. But I'll admit that I prefer getting right
    > to the message, and I can see that many people seem to like that kind of
    > glurgy stuff. So I endure it the way I endure commercials and political
    > ads and a flu virus.


    So do I. But I don't do so quietly.

    > I can't tell you how many times I've emailed people back to let them
    > know that I don't take those big, honkin' downloads. But the truth is,
    > I'm slowly becoming a minority user as more businesses get T1 lines, and
    > many home offices (and even home users) get cable and dsl connections.


    Imagine what they could get out of their 100 times faster connection if
    the unnecessary and unwanted data flood hadn't increased by 1000 times
    in the same time.

    > In some respects, this is like when we switched from straight ASCII to
    > WYSIWYG graphics and went TrueType crazy (Or PS or Nimbus). It's an
    > evolution made possible by technology.


    An evolution that leads into a dead end.
    Technology is advancing, hardware becomes faster and cheaper every day.
    And more and more people are using it. Plain captitalism 101 would tell
    that the services should become cheaper then.
    But Alas! prices for DSL connections are RAISING instead. A sure sign
    that there is something wrong.
    And I bet it will happen sooner or later (soone being more likely) that
    the whole internet will break down due to overload and become useless
    and unaffordable.

    > | OTOH, you downgraded the work of your mates - which might have the
    > | same information but then was rated less.
    > | So what happened? Instead of learning the lessons, they had to buy
    > | publishing software and learn how to use it, just to get the same
    > | number of points.
    > | Doesn't sound right, isn't right and unfortunately is a normal thing
    > | these days.
    >
    > Jens, your attitude never ceases to amaze me! Maybe I've been spoiled by
    > living in a capitalist, market driven economy.


    No, but you seem to be a consumer (the victim of that market driven
    economy) instead of looking behind the scenes and looking forward.

    > I didn't downgrade the work of my peers at all. Let's assume that you
    > and I do exactly the same amount of research and turn in comparable
    > papers. Yours is standard Courier typeface, double spaced and neatly
    > stapled. Mine is enhanced with some graphics and a different format. If
    > the prof gives me a few extra points, then it's well deserved because
    > despite the fact that we put the same amount of work into the
    > information, I *did* put a little more work into the formatting and
    > presentation.


    Indeed, you put some effort into it which wasn't part of the work you
    were asked and expect to get paid extra for the unwanted work.
    While this is normal today, this doesn't say this is good or correct.
    But you DID downgrade your mates' work.
    If solving the given task to 100% would have been an A+, giving you a
    few extra points for the additional and irrelevant work would mean that
    the others can't get an A+ for their 100% work. As A+ is the maximum and
    you got it.
    When your work was beklow 100% and you got extra points for the
    additional irrelevant work, this measn that you got the same result as
    someone who has done the job better.
    In both cases your extra points for the irrelevant outfit has downgraded
    the work out your mates. And to avoid getting less points for maybe
    better results, they are now forced to invest time into irrelevant
    sideworks too.
    So your hour of additional designwork has cost your maybe 30 mates 30
    hours of additional work. 30 wasted working hours just to get the same
    result as before. Your deed has hurt world's economy. Shame on you!


    > If I put several hours of time that semester in learning DTP skills, why
    > shouldn't I be compensated for that (in the form of a few extra points)?


    Because your work wasn't about DTP so DTP shouldn't be rated. Except it
    was a DTP class.
    When I write a math test, all that counts shoud be the correct result,
    not the style of my handwriting or whatever.
    Or do you think it is a good thing that someone with a nice handwriting
    style whould get an A+ with half of his calculations being wrong, while
    someone else with a bad (but still readable) handwriting and all results
    correct will get the same?

    > If I've had exposre to the material before (which
    > gives me an advantage), does that make it "not right" for me to get a
    > better grade?


    Well, if you had exposure to the material before, you should be
    disqualified

    > If I'm single and can devote more hours of study over a
    > married person with a family, does that make it "not right"?


    If a married man who has less time but produces the same result (in
    content) does not get the same points as you who just has time to waste
    but does not produce a better content, then this is not right.
    Isn't it a American base ideology that the better one shall win (and not
    the one with less capabilities but more time to waste)?
    'Nice points' are to be given to children. And even there they rise
    hatred, as children exactle feel what's just and what's not. More than
    adults.

    > No, the other students learned the lessons - I just "raised the bar" as
    > we say here. Not unlike how Win95 raised the bar in other areas.


    Indeed. And as a German, raised in Berlin, the parted city, with direct
    look upon the German Democratic Republic, I exactly know where 'raising
    the bar' leads into. Better than most other people.
    Even more if 'raising the bar' does not mean 'raising the quality' or
    'raising the quantity'.

    One real example: in the GDR, some time ago the effectiveness of a
    factory producing spanners was measured in tons per day. One factory
    'raised the bar' by using the heaviest possible material and making the
    spanners as large as possible. They didn't increase the number pruduced
    per day and the spanners were so heavy that nobody wanted to use them,
    but they were top-producers of the year. And all other factories had to
    keep up or ther wages lowered. Of course they increased the weight of
    their tools to keep up.
    After all the people had to pay more for overweighted tools that were
    (due to their weight) less usable.
    But well, someone raised the bar and got a price. Once. And all suffered
    from it.

    And this happened in a socialistic land. In Capitalism it is even worse.

    Grossibaer

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