GIS DEVELOPER/ CONTRACT/ WI - GEOS

This is a discussion on GIS DEVELOPER/ CONTRACT/ WI - GEOS ; In news:y5YkApHpvKnL092yn@visi.com, Richard Steiner informed us: | There is no disadvantage to using PC/GEOS on a modern system, or even | on a slightly less-than-modern system such as I use. Oh dammit, I promised myself that I would not get ...

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Thread: GIS DEVELOPER/ CONTRACT/ WI

  1. Re: Running PC/GEOS under OS/2 (it works fine).

    In news:y5YkApHpvKnL092yn@visi.com,
    Richard Steiner informed us:

    | There is no disadvantage to using PC/GEOS on a modern system, or even
    | on a slightly less-than-modern system such as I use.

    Oh dammit, I promised myself that I would not get into any pro/con
    arguments, but I can't let this one go by.

    While there might not be any disadvantage from a pure computing
    perspective (i.e., the relevancy to anything else running on a system,
    be it OS2, Linux, or Windows, or any other threading OS), the
    disadvantage is in the capability of the software to be competitive in
    today's market.

    Geos/ND/BB is a great product, no doubt. But it's still more akin to
    early versions of Win 3 in terms of support for other functions (CD
    burning, web surfing, etc) and I think that what the overwhelming
    majority of users want (as evidenced by their purchasing) is an
    "all-in-one" package that doesn't need to make them buy and learn a lot
    of different things. I think it was Holger that used to say that most PC
    buyers were stupid. While I'm not going to disagree (I'm not very people
    friendly this week ), I'd say that computers have moved out of the
    geek novelty niche market into the home appliance market. Nobody wants
    to learn electronics in order to work their home entertainment center,
    and few people anymore even get under the hood of their own cars.

    I'm going to stop here because I'm having some serious deja vu ;-)

    Tom



  2. Re: Of desktop PC's and Palm Pilots...

    In news:/+YkApHpvaEQ092yn@visi.com,
    Richard Steiner informed us:
    | Here in comp.os.geos.misc,
    | "Tom Accuosti" spake unto us, saying:
    |
    || Gosh, you kids are still using PC's? That's like, so retro.
    |
    | There's something special about running an arcade game on a 21" screen
    | that a Palm Pilot just can't replace. :-)

    Yeah - Space Invaders on a 3" screen just doesn't have the same thrill.


    | Not that I don't love my little m105, mind you...

    I jsut replaced my 2 year old Visor Prism with a T3. I'm in love. I
    bought a 256m SD card, and I've got bunch of MP3, and dozens of ebooks.
    In fact, I probably use it more for book reading than anything else.
    It's nice having the extended screen, and in hi-res mode, too. But I'm
    very impressed with the software that's out there, from all sorts of
    useful little freeware utilities to big apps like Agendus (contact
    manager and datebook) and Docs toGo (an office suite that reads and
    writes actual MS files rignt off your SD card).

    I even bought a little fold up keyboard for it for when I have to do
    some editing and don't want to drag out the laptop. Very cool.

    Tom



  3. Re: Running PC/GEOS under OS/2 (it works fine).


    "Richard Steiner" wrote in message
    news:y5YkApHpvKnL092yn@visi.com...
    > Here in comp.os.geos.misc, "Pat"


    > I'm afraid *most* of your comment has nothing to do with PC/GEOS.


    Excuse me, but the gentleman who posted his original message, looking for
    developers for Geo (not GEOS) applications, never got a proper reply from
    the peanut gallery. I was the only one who directly replied, nobody else was
    willing to say the truth.

    > So? Since each occurence of the "DOS Jail" (implemented here as an OS/2
    > VDM) is just another isolated process, and each is preemptively juggled
    > by the kernel just as any other native process would be, the limitations
    > internal to that particular container are not relevant to anything else
    > that is running on the system.


    If I remember correctly, there was once talk between the CEOs of Geoworks
    and Quarterdeck to merge GEOS and DESKVIEW. Back then, it was considered a
    good way to have GEOS multitasked with other DOS applications, including
    multi GEOS copies running. That idea got abandoned when Geoworks assessed
    the whole desktop strategy, what it would take to make GEOS a serious
    contended, etc, and decided to cut bait and row their boat over to a whole
    new market, namely, PDAs. I think they made the right decision. Essentially,
    the God of GEOS, its inventors, got off of the desktop!

    IMHO, from a unified concept of interoperability of applications, which can
    use the internals of the OS to pass information and co-exist with ease, the
    best strategy is to stick with Windows and Win Apps. Alternatively, use an
    ostensibly dead-ended OS, like the desktop version of OS/2, and stick with
    its dated API interfaces.

    The fact that you can do something does not make it a smart idea for others
    to adopt. IMHO, running a DOS app on a higher level OS is a dumb idea,
    unless that DOS program is a critical application that can not be duplicated
    by an existing native mode version. Examples are specially developed
    programs that never got recoded for Windows, and the like. In the case of
    GEOS Ensemble, none of its capabilities and features have an advantage over
    using native WIN32 API compliant software. I guess this is where some users
    will take exception with claims of why Ensemble is unparalleled in its
    ability to do BLAH, BLAH, BLAH.



  4. Re: Running PC/GEOS under OS/2 (it works fine).

    Here in comp.os.geos.misc,
    "Tom Accuosti" spake unto us, saying:

    >In news:y5YkApHpvKnL092yn@visi.com,
    >Richard Steiner informed us:
    >
    >| There is no disadvantage to using PC/GEOS on a modern system, or even
    >| on a slightly less-than-modern system such as I use.
    >
    >Oh dammit, I promised myself that I would not get into any pro/con
    >arguments, but I can't let this one go by.


    :-)

    >While there might not be any disadvantage from a pure computing
    >perspective (i.e., the relevancy to anything else running on a system,
    >be it OS2, Linux, or Windows, or any other threading OS), the
    >disadvantage is in the capability of the software to be competitive
    >in today's market.


    Users generally don't care if a given piece of software is competitive
    in a given market.

    That's the concern of software companies, not users.

    Most of the users I know (including myself) generally only care about
    three things:

    * Does this software do what I want?
    * Can I use it on my current system?
    * How hard is it to obtain? (Alternatively: How expensive is it?)

    >Geos/ND/BB is a great product, no doubt. But it's still more akin to
    >early versions of Win 3 in terms of support for other functions (CD
    >burning, web surfing, etc) and I think that what the overwhelming
    >majority of users want (as evidenced by their purchasing) is an
    >"all-in-one" package that doesn't need to make them buy and learn a lot
    >of different things.


    Sure, I'll agree with that.

    I suspect, however, that most users today would choose to run PC/GEOS
    under an existing Windows environment, and because of that they won't
    be limited w.r.t. other things that PC/GEOS is admittedly lacking.

    >I'm going to stop here because I'm having some serious deja vu ;-)


    Reminds me of a tagline:

    "Right now I'm having anmesia and deja vu at the same time! :-)"

    --
    -Rich Steiner >>>---> http://www.visi.com/~rsteiner >>>---> Eden Prairie, MN
    OS/2 + eCS + Linux + Win95 + DOS + PC/GEOS + Executor = PC Hobbyist Heaven!
    Applications analyst/designer/developer (14 yrs) seeking employment.
    See web site above for resume/CV and background.

  5. Re: Running PC/GEOS under OS/2 (it works fine).

    Here in comp.os.geos.misc, "Pat"
    spake unto us, saying:

    >IMHO, from a unified concept of interoperability of applications, which
    >can use the internals of the OS to pass information and co-exist with
    >ease, the best strategy is to stick with Windows and Win Apps.


    Or any platform which provides what is needed. :-)

    (I know a lot of Mac, Solaris, and Linux desktop users who get by just
    fine, some of them for a number of years).

    As long as Windows comes preinstalled on most boxes, it will probably
    remain the primary (default) choice for most nontechnical users.

    >Alternatively, use an ostensibly dead-ended OS, like the desktop version
    >of OS/2, and stick with its dated API interfaces.


    Even I don't advocate that anymore except for curious hobbyists or folks
    who are otherwise looking for alternatives for their own sake.

    That said, there are many things in this "dated" version of OS/2 that I
    wish Microsoft or the various Linux development groups would implement.

    >The fact that you can do something does not make it a smart idea for
    >others to adopt.


    That depends completely on the context. If the "you" in question is an
    atypical user in some respects, then your statement is probably true.

    >IMHO, running a DOS app on a higher level OS is a dumb idea, unless that
    >DOS program is a critical application that can not be duplicated by an
    >existing native mode version.


    Agreed, or unless the program in question actually works better for a
    given set of functions than the newer "native" counterparts do.

    That's why I still use Quicken 8 for DOS here even though I have much
    newer versions of Windows Quicken -- for data entry I much prefer the
    text interface, but I'll convert the data and use the Windows version
    for creating pretty graphs now and then.

    >In the case of GEOS Ensemble, none of its capabilities and features have
    >an advantage over using native WIN32 API compliant software.


    ....except in those situations where that Win32 API isn't available. :-)

    The nice thing about DOS software is that the DOS environment is fairly
    easy to emulate. Because of this, one can run the same DOS programs on
    a wide array of platforms including DOS, Windows, OS/2, and even Linux
    or other platforms via utilities like DOSEMU or DOSBOX.

    That might make PC/GEOS desireable even for Windows users if they also
    use something else which can run PC/GEOS (but not Win32 software).

    >I guess this is where some users will take exception with claims of why
    >Ensemble is unparalleled in its ability to do BLAH, BLAH, BLAH.


    I like the mix of vector and bitmap tools found in GeoDraw.

    --
    -Rich Steiner >>>---> http://www.visi.com/~rsteiner >>>---> Eden Prairie, MN
    OS/2 + eCS + Linux + Win95 + DOS + PC/GEOS + Executor = PC Hobbyist Heaven!
    Applications analyst/designer/developer (14 yrs) seeking employment.
    See web site above for resume/CV and background.

  6. Re: Running PC/GEOS under OS/2 (it works fine).

    Here in comp.os.geos.misc,
    rsteiner@visi.com (Richard Steiner) spake unto us, saying:

    >Reminds me of a tagline:
    >
    > "Right now I'm having anmesia and deja vu at the same time! :-)"

    ^^^^^^^
    Dyslexia too, apparently. :-)

    --
    -Rich Steiner >>>---> http://www.visi.com/~rsteiner >>>---> Eden Prairie, MN
    OS/2 + eCS + Linux + Win95 + DOS + PC/GEOS + Executor = PC Hobbyist Heaven!
    Applications analyst/designer/developer (14 yrs) seeking employment.
    See web site above for resume/CV and background.

  7. Re: Of desktop PC's and Palm Pilots...

    "Tom Accuosti" wrote in message news:...
    > In news:/+YkApHpvaEQ092yn@visi.com,
    > Richard Steiner informed us:
    > | Here in comp.os.geos.misc,
    > | "Tom Accuosti" spake unto us, saying:
    > |
    > || Gosh, you kids are still using PC's? That's like, so retro.
    > |
    > | There's something special about running an arcade game on a 21" screen
    > | that a Palm Pilot just can't replace. :-)
    >
    > Yeah - Space Invaders on a 3" screen just doesn't have the same thrill.
    >
    >
    > | Not that I don't love my little m105, mind you...
    >
    > I jsut replaced my 2 year old Visor Prism with a T3. I'm in love. I
    > bought a 256m SD card, and I've got bunch of MP3, and dozens of ebooks.
    > In fact, I probably use it more for book reading than anything else.
    > It's nice having the extended screen, and in hi-res mode, too. But I'm
    > very impressed with the software that's out there, from all sorts of
    > useful little freeware utilities to big apps like Agendus (contact
    > manager and datebook) and Docs toGo (an office suite that reads and
    > writes actual MS files rignt off your SD card).
    >
    > I even bought a little fold up keyboard for it for when I have to do
    > some editing and don't want to drag out the laptop. Very cool.
    >
    > Tom


    Hi Tom,

    Do you have any of my freebie ebooks for the palm PDA's?

    ;-)
    Byron

    ---
    Byron's Emporium - Cool eBooks for PDA's
    ENJOYOUREAD Production
    http://www.xecu.net/bcollins/index.htm
    ---

  8. Re: Of desktop PC's and Palm Pilots...

    Here in comp.os.geos.misc,
    "Tom Accuosti" spake unto us, saying:

    >I jsut replaced my 2 year old Visor Prism with a T3. I'm in love. I
    >bought a 256m SD card, and I've got bunch of MP3, and dozens of ebooks.
    >In fact, I probably use it more for book reading than anything else.


    I'm still reading paper books. My latest is Winston Churchills first
    volume on World War 2. Interesting reading. :-)

    I use my Palm as a calculator, for creating/maintaining small databases
    (address/phone book, home inventory, etc.), and for playing games mostly.

    Then again, I'm still in the process of exploring its uses, and I'm sure
    I'll outgrow this one fairly quickly.

    >It's nice having the extended screen, and in hi-res mode, too. But I'm
    >very impressed with the software that's out there, from all sorts of
    >useful little freeware utilities to big apps like Agendus (contact
    >manager and datebook) and Docs toGo (an office suite that reads and
    >writes actual MS files rignt off your SD card).


    Yes, there are a lot of useful apps out there for PalmOS. I really
    like the freeware DB database, HandyShopper, and the Parens calculator,
    and even some of the little utilities I've found like X-Master and
    BatteryLog are extremely handy.

    >I even bought a little fold up keyboard for it for when I have to do
    >some editing and don't want to drag out the laptop. Very cool.


    I just bought a second Palm folding keyboard for my m105 (in case the
    first one breaks) for US$4 + S&H on half.com.

    It's the same model as my first one -- the type by Think Outside that
    folds by quarters into a square slightly larger than the Palm itself,
    and while it does seem fairly sturdy and probably won't break, I just
    couldn't refuse the price on the second one. :-)

    --
    -Rich Steiner >>>---> http://www.visi.com/~rsteiner >>>---> Eden Prairie, MN
    OS/2 + eCS + Linux + Win95 + DOS + PC/GEOS + Executor = PC Hobbyist Heaven!
    Applications analyst/designer/developer (14 yrs) seeking employment.
    See web site above for resume/CV and background.

  9. Re: Running PC/GEOS under OS/2 (it works fine).


    "Richard Steiner" wrote in message
    news:WYDlApHpvCHK092yn@visi.com...

    > Or any platform which provides what is needed. :-)


    And "what is needed" has become a fast moving target, therefore, its best to
    stay unified under one banner.

    > The nice thing about DOS software is that the DOS environment is fairly
    > easy to emulate.

    .................................................................
    > That might make PC/GEOS desireable even for Windows users if they also
    > use something else which can run PC/GEOS (but not Win32 software).
    >


    The nice thing about DOS is that it has practically disappeared from the
    world of PCs and we now have a generation of kids who are clueless as to
    what DOS is.

    > I like the mix of vector and bitmap tools found in GeoDraw.


    GeoDraw was above average in its day, but its been 15 years now and Windows,
    OS-X, and Linux apps have redefined the entire DRAWING world. When you look
    at what Macromedia and Adobe offer, on every level, its hard to resist.
    Regardless of your needs, they offer wonderful up/down scaleability and have
    a tight coupling with new printers and imaging devices.




  10. Re: Running PC/GEOS under OS/2 (it works fine).



    Pat wrote:

    > "Richard Steiner" wrote in message
    > news:WYDlApHpvCHK092yn@visi.com...
    >
    >
    >>Or any platform which provides what is needed. :-)

    >
    >
    > And "what is needed" has become a fast moving target, therefore, its best to
    > stay unified under one banner.


    Like Lemmings....
    >
    >
    >>The nice thing about DOS software is that the DOS environment is fairly
    >>easy to emulate.

    >
    > ................................................................
    >
    >>That might make PC/GEOS desireable even for Windows users if they also
    >>use something else which can run PC/GEOS (but not Win32 software).
    >>

    >
    >
    > The nice thing about DOS is that it has practically disappeared from the
    > world of PCs and we now have a generation of kids who are clueless as to
    > what DOS is.


    And how to install a board, or what an OS is. "Help desk - what OS are
    you using?" "Microsoft Office."
    >
    >
    >>I like the mix of vector and bitmap tools found in GeoDraw.

    >
    >
    > GeoDraw was above average in its day, but its been 15 years now and Windows,
    > OS-X, and Linux apps have redefined the entire DRAWING world. When you look
    > at what Macromedia and Adobe offer, on every level, its hard to resist.
    > Regardless of your needs, they offer wonderful up/down scaleability and have
    > a tight coupling with new printers and imaging devices.


    You can enjoy your printers and imaging devices, but I prefer tight
    coupling with the female of my species.

    Roy



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  11. Re: Running PC/GEOS under OS/2 (it works fine).

    Here in comp.os.geos.misc, "Pat"
    spake unto us, saying:

    >"Richard Steiner" wrote in message
    >news:WYDlApHpvCHK092yn@visi.com...
    >
    >> Or any platform which provides what is needed. :-)

    >
    >And "what is needed" has become a fast moving target, therefore, its
    >best to stay unified under one banner.


    It can be, yes. But which banner? :-)

    Windows has strong appeal, certainly, mainly due to its large installed
    base and to the ubiquity of the proprietary file formats which originate
    on that platform, but are those reasons enough to use it universally?

    The ever-expanding presence of exploits and of viruses for the Windows
    family of operating systems makes me wonder.

    I certainly don't propose that PC/GEOS is an answer, at least for the
    vast majority, but I see some merit in the positions of those putting
    Linux or Mac OS X forward as alternatives.

    Windows *is* getting better, and a knowledgable sysadmin can certainly
    lock down a current Windows system, but unfortunately most users don't
    fall into that category. :-(

    I also fall into the camp that feels that a completely homogeneous PC
    hardware and software infrastructure is not always a good thing, at
    least for a larger organization.

    >> The nice thing about DOS software is that the DOS environment is fairly
    >> easy to emulate.

    >................................................................
    >> That might make PC/GEOS desireable even for Windows users if they also
    >> use something else which can run PC/GEOS (but not Win32 software).

    >
    >The nice thing about DOS is that it has practically disappeared from the
    >world of PCs and we now have a generation of kids who are clueless as to
    >what DOS is.


    While it's good that the need for learning DOS configuration is largely
    gone, I'm not sure that encouraging ignorance about the past (at least
    on the part of technically-inclined users) is a good thing.

    There are many valid reasons to expose even Windows-centric sysadmins,
    programmers, and other technical users to a CLI-centric platform, if
    only to provide them with some exposure to a contrasting approach.

    >> I like the mix of vector and bitmap tools found in GeoDraw.

    >
    >GeoDraw was above average in its day, but its been 15 years now and
    >Windows, OS-X, and Linux apps have redefined the entire DRAWING world.


    I use and like Visio 4 under OS/2, and I also use the drawing tools
    that are found in StarOffice and OpenOffice, so I have some level of
    appreciation for the advances that have been made.

    That said, I still like GeoDraw for some types of drawing.

    >When you look at what Macromedia and Adobe offer, on every level, its
    >hard to resist.


    Not as a home user, at least when I look at their prices. :-)

    >Regardless of your needs, they offer wonderful up/down scaleability and
    >have a tight coupling with new printers and imaging devices.


    That might be true, but shouldn't printing be independent of the actual
    applications involved?

    --
    -Rich Steiner >>>---> http://www.visi.com/~rsteiner >>>---> Eden Prairie, MN
    OS/2 + eCS + Linux + Win95 + DOS + PC/GEOS + Executor = PC Hobbyist Heaven!
    Applications analyst/designer/developer (14 yrs) seeking employment.
    See web site above for resume/CV and background.

  12. Re: Running PC/GEOS under OS/2 (it works fine).

    Richard Steiner schrieb:

    > Windows *is* getting better, and a knowledgable sysadmin can certainly
    > lock down a current Windows system, but unfortunately most users don't
    > fall into that category. :-(


    Some quote from the past (I don't rememebr who said it, but he certainly
    was and still is right):

    "With Windows you can get 20 to 80% out ouf your machine, with Linux 0%
    to 99%, dependign on your knowledge."

    Indeed, a knowledgeable sysadmin can increase the 'effectiveness' of a
    windows system drastically over the results an average user could
    achieve, and even an unskilled 'clueless' user can get some benefits
    from it (well, todays machines are a thousand times bigger and faster
    than my first computers, but I don't get thousand times the work done in
    the same time).
    But other systems (e.g. Linux) may require a skilled admin to set them
    up and a clueless user is completely lost, but after they are
    configured, you'll get way more usability than from any windows system.

    > While it's good that the need for learning DOS configuration is largely
    > gone, I'm not sure that encouraging ignorance about the past (at least
    > on the part of technically-inclined users) is a good thing.


    To mirror a picture someone else painted:

    With DOS, you are an adult. You issue commands and the computer either
    does the job or replies that it cannot comply.
    The result depends on how good you are issuing commands.

    With Windows, you're back to infant level: you grab the mouse (Daddy!
    Daddy!), point somewhere (Daddy, there!) and klick (I want! I want!).
    The result depends on what the programmer has foreseen your needs and
    permits you to 'want'.


    > >GeoDraw was above average in its day, but its been 15 years now and
    > >Windows, OS-X, and Linux apps have redefined the entire DRAWING world.

    >
    > I use and like Visio 4 under OS/2, and I also use the drawing tools
    > that are found in StarOffice and OpenOffice, so I have some level of
    > appreciation for the advances that have been made.
    >
    > That said, I still like GeoDraw for some types of drawing.


    Me too. I remember my experiences with Visio. Argh! Terrible!
    For my diploma thesis, I had to draw an icon for an accoustic coupler
    (yes, these grandparents of the modems). The vector drawing was nice.
    But when I had to scale it, it deformed like a bundle of spirals instead
    of scaling. Just as if I had applied pressure on the real object until
    it broke into parts. Useless crap. Unfortunately I had to use Visio (and
    Word). Doing the same job with GEOS would have had the same quality in
    half the time.

    Grossibaer

  13. Re: Running PC/GEOS under OS/2 (it works fine).

    In news:40964CAB.B0774F91@grossibaer.de,
    Jens-Michael Gross informed us:
    | Richard Steiner schrieb:
    |
    || Windows *is* getting better, and a knowledgable sysadmin can
    || certainly lock down a current Windows system, but unfortunately most
    || users don't fall into that category. :-(

    And this gets to the point that I was making the other day.


    |
    | Some quote from the past (I don't rememebr who said it, but he
    | certainly was and still is right):
    |
    | "With Windows you can get 20 to 80% out ouf your machine, with Linux
    | 0% to 99%, dependign on your knowledge."

    I think that you'd have to define 20% or 99%, and unfortunately there
    are so many variables that this statement isn't very useful.


    | Indeed, a knowledgeable sysadmin can increase the 'effectiveness' of a
    | windows system drastically over the results an average user could
    | achieve, and even an unskilled 'clueless' user can get some benefits
    | from it

    And that's precisely the point of having experts around. Happens in
    every industry. I happen to be a local "expert" on certain types of
    manufacturing, which is why I get to sit behind this desk responding on
    a NG when the other guys are out on the shop floor .

    | (well, todays machines are a thousand times bigger and faster
    | than my first computers, but I don't get thousand times the work done
    | in the same time).

    No, but the programs that are running are significantly more powerful,
    and they have capabilities for doing work that wasn't possible 15 or 20
    years ago. No, you can't type any faster, but now you can include more
    document features than you probably dreamed of back when you did your
    papers. 15 years ago, I was happy to be able to print simple line
    graphics in the middle of a paper and have the text flow around it. Now
    I can have multi-colored pictures and include sound files and hyperlinks
    to other web sites, and updates to spreadhseets and Powerpoint
    presentations. Okay, few people really do *all* that all the time, but I
    know people who do some pretty cool stuff.

    Remember writing the slash macros for Lotus 123? VBA is far more
    complex, but I've been able to do far more with it.


    | But other systems (e.g. Linux) may require a skilled admin to set them
    | up and a clueless user is completely lost, but after they are
    | configured, you'll get way more usability than from any windows
    | system.

    Usability defined as what?

    Notice that I'm not arguing for or against Geos, Linux, or Windoze. What
    I have an issue with are those who would set some kind of standard of
    usability based on their own narrow filed of interest. I'm going to
    state right here and now, for the record, that there are many people who
    have such little desire for anything more than very, very basic
    computing that Geos on DOS or MS Works on Win31 would serve them more
    than adequately.


    || While it's good that the need for learning DOS configuration is
    || largely gone, I'm not sure that encouraging ignorance about the past
    || (at least on the part of technically-inclined users) is a good thing.
    |
    | To mirror a picture someone else painted:
    |
    | With DOS, you are an adult. You issue commands and the computer either
    | does the job or replies that it cannot comply.
    | The result depends on how good you are issuing commands.
    |
    | With Windows, you're back to infant level: you grab the mouse (Daddy!
    | Daddy!), point somewhere (Daddy, there!) and klick (I want! I want!).
    | The result depends on what the programmer has foreseen your needs and
    | permits you to 'want'.

    Jens, this attitude amazes me! Don't you have any conception about
    marketing preferences or consumerism?

    Let's take the perspective of the typical office or home user, okay?

    With DOS, you are a mechanic and a programmer. You try to remember
    arcane commands in order to do what should be simple file and disk
    maintenance and hope that you don't overwrite something important. Or
    you keep working at something barely remembered from that 1/2 day
    computer seminar you attended, and the computer either does the job or
    replies that you're doing it wrong, and gives no *helpful* feedback as
    to what you could do differetnly.

    The results you get depend on how good you are at following strict
    command sets with no typo errors.

    With Windoze (Geos, Linux with a GUI, whatever), you're promoted to a
    more efficient way of actually *using* your programs because you no
    longer need to remember paths, 8.3 file names, or what your config.sys
    actually does. You point somewhere and click on a menu, and can be
    reasonably assured that the FIle, Edit, Format, and Tools menus will
    have pretty much the same design as the other progrmas that you're
    accustomed to using. You send the paper to the printer that your
    Plug'n'Play drivers recognized, and you go on to the next thing.

    The results that you get depend on how much you want to learn about the
    actual *program* that you use; as opposed to how much you can learn
    about DOS commands and machine setup.


    Again, I think that one of the things that has amazed me about a few of
    the regulars on this group is how disdainful you can be of the
    "stupids", the regular users who don't care about being A+ Certified,
    but only want their checkbook to balance and to rip a few CDs and get
    their email. I'm again going to make the analogy of auto ownership back
    in the early 1900's. Back then, you could own a car, but you had better
    be prepared to be a mechanic because you had to do so much maintenance.
    100 year later, nobody cares if you don't change your own oil or spark
    plugs.

    Tom





  14. Re: Running PC/GEOS under OS/2 (it works fine).



    Tom Accuosti wrote:


    >
    > | (well, todays machines are a thousand times bigger and faster
    > | than my first computers, but I don't get thousand times the work done
    > | in the same time).
    >
    > No, but the programs that are running are significantly more powerful,
    > and they have capabilities for doing work that wasn't possible 15 or 20
    > years ago. No, you can't type any faster, but now you can include more
    > document features than you probably dreamed of back when you did your
    > papers. 15 years ago, I was happy to be able to print simple line
    > graphics in the middle of a paper and have the text flow around it. Now
    > I can have multi-colored pictures and include sound files and hyperlinks
    > to other web sites, and updates to spreadhseets and Powerpoint
    > presentations. Okay, few people really do *all* that all the time, but I
    > know people who do some pretty cool stuff.


    Granted. Query: Does it really communicate MORE? And how much time was
    involved? Perhaps a simple Notepad .txt document would have done the
    job. Granted, a serious business proposal or sales document needs to be
    much more than a text file, and there are times when one really needs to
    grab someone's attention. But I've seen far too much time spent on
    creating and (trying) to read a simple message buried under sound,
    graphics and fonts.

    Roy



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  15. Re: Running PC/GEOS under OS/2 (it works fine).


    "Exegete" wrote in message
    news:4096931d_5@corp.newsgroups.com...
    |
    |
    | Tom Accuosti wrote:
    |
    |
    | >
    | > | (well, todays machines are a thousand times bigger and faster
    | > | than my first computers, but I don't get thousand times the work
    done
    | > | in the same time).
    | >
    | > No, but the programs that are running are significantly more
    powerful,
    | > and they have capabilities for doing work that wasn't possible 15 or
    20
    | > years ago. No, you can't type any faster, but now you can include
    more
    | > document features than you probably dreamed of back when you did
    your
    | > papers. 15 years ago, I was happy to be able to print simple line
    | > graphics in the middle of a paper and have the text flow around it.
    Now
    | > I can have multi-colored pictures and include sound files and
    hyperlinks
    | > to other web sites, and updates to spreadhseets and Powerpoint
    | > presentations. Okay, few people really do *all* that all the time,
    but I
    | > know people who do some pretty cool stuff.
    |
    | Granted. Query: Does it really communicate MORE? And how much time was
    | involved? Perhaps a simple Notepad .txt document would have done the
    | job. Granted, a serious business proposal or sales document needs to
    be
    | much more than a text file, and there are times when one really needs
    to
    | grab someone's attention. But I've seen far too much time spent on
    | creating and (trying) to read a simple message buried under sound,
    | graphics and fonts.


    After I posted, I just *knew* that somebody would mention this, although
    I was betting it would have been someone else.

    This is a side issue, though, because if people *want* to make overly
    large multi-part multimedia documents, then they should be allowed to do
    so. We don't have to *like* them . OTOH, I know someone who has a
    standard format for certain reports that are linked to constantly
    updated spreadsheets, so when the reports are viewed they have
    up-to-date bar graphs and pie charts, which certainly cuts down on those
    last minute changes by the pointy-haired bosses who love to see those
    things.

    Back in grad school, I had a prof who was always going on about this or
    that journal. So I did a paper, but used some early desktop publishing
    software ( I had Geos, but I ended up using Publish It!) to format a
    paper to make it look as if it had been published in a certain academic
    journal. Two columns, inset text boxes, etc. It didn't give any more
    information than a typed double-spaced term paper, but it looked as cool
    as hell, and she probably marked it up a few extra points just for the
    novelty.

    Tom



  16. Re: Running PC/GEOS under OS/2 (it works fine).


    "Exegete" wrote in message
    news:4095948c_5@corp.newsgroups.com...

    > Like Lemmings....


    Here, you are wrong. For example, Intel introduced USB, and it went through
    2 generation. USB 1.x for 12Mbps and USB 2.x for 480Mbps. Apple was
    initially betting on Firewire being the defacto standard for peripheral
    add-ons, and everyone thought that USB would not be competitive. However,
    its just the opposite, for most new devices, the plug and play feature of
    USB has made the process of upgrading extremely simple. In fact, both USB
    and Firewire co-exist, nicely.

    Is that Intel and Microsoft leading the lemmings into their USB trap? NO! It
    literally made add-ons a simple process for the majority. There's always
    some horror stories for every occasion, but the pros outweigh the cons in
    this case.

    > And how to install a board, or what an OS is. "Help desk - what OS are
    > you using?" "Microsoft Office."


    I guess you mean Microsoft Windows. Great OS!

    > You can enjoy your printers and imaging devices, but I prefer tight
    > coupling with the female of my species.


    OK, I'll drink to that!



  17. Re: Running PC/GEOS under OS/2 (it works fine).


    "Richard Steiner" wrote in message
    news:yzelApHpvKpO092yn@visi.com...

    > It can be, yes. But which banner? :-)


    Any banner. Makes no difference. Just as long as its pure throughout. I
    remember, years ago, when AVID introduced a video editor for the Mac. It was
    extremely advanced but AVID had elected to port their unix interface onto
    the Mac. Although the product was considered a excellent, it failed because
    of the lack of uniformity with the Mac User Interface semantics.



  18. Re: Running PC/GEOS under OS/2 (it works fine).



    Pat wrote:
    > "Exegete" wrote in message
    > news:4095948c_5@corp.newsgroups.com...
    >
    >
    >>Like Lemmings....

    >
    >
    > Here, you are wrong. For example, Intel introduced USB, and it went through
    > 2 generation. USB 1.x for 12Mbps and USB 2.x for 480Mbps. Apple was
    > initially betting on Firewire being the defacto standard for peripheral
    > add-ons, and everyone thought that USB would not be competitive. However,
    > its just the opposite, for most new devices, the plug and play feature of
    > USB has made the process of upgrading extremely simple. In fact, both USB
    > and Firewire co-exist, nicely.


    No, I don't think I am. See below. BTW - the first iMacs came with USB
    standard. As I recall Firewire wasn't ready yet. Besides the discussion
    concerned packages, not a standard for attaching various kinds of
    devices. The Lemmings buy what's in the box.

    >
    > Is that Intel and Microsoft leading the lemmings into their USB trap? NO! It
    > literally made add-ons a simple process for the majority. There's always
    > some horror stories for every occasion, but the pros outweigh the cons in
    > this case.
    >
    >
    >>And how to install a board, or what an OS is. "Help desk - what OS are
    >>you using?" "Microsoft Office."

    >
    >
    > I guess you mean Microsoft Windows. Great OS!


    No. I'm not that dumb. But many who buy Wintel machines are.
    They aren't buying M$ because it's so good, they're buying it because
    Dell is selling a machine that gets on the Internet for $500, or because
    Walmart is selling a Wintel for somewhere around the same price. They
    have never HEARD of Linux, Mach, or GEOS. Most have never even heard of
    DOS. No Macs for sale at Walmart, but then, most people have no idea
    that there is any competition.
    >
    >
    >>You can enjoy your printers and imaging devices, but I prefer tight
    >>coupling with the female of my species.

    >
    >
    > OK, I'll drink to that!


    ;-)

    >
    >




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  19. Re: Running PC/GEOS under OS/2 (it works fine).

    Pat wrote:
    > "Exegete" wrote in message
    > news:4095948c_5@corp.newsgroups.com...
    >
    >
    >>Like Lemmings....

    >
    >
    > Here, you are wrong. For example, Intel introduced USB, and it went through
    > 2 generation. USB 1.x for 12Mbps and USB 2.x for 480Mbps. Apple was
    > initially betting on Firewire being the defacto standard for peripheral
    > add-ons, and everyone thought that USB would not be competitive. However,
    > its just the opposite, for most new devices, the plug and play feature of
    > USB has made the process of upgrading extremely simple. In fact, both USB
    > and Firewire co-exist, nicely.
    >
    > [...]


    USB and Firewire have many fundamental differences that are not apparent
    to the end user until they reach the limits of the respective systems,
    for example. In any case, you can not distinguish them by the ability to
    plug and play, since both are.

    Philippe.


  20. Re: Running PC/GEOS under OS/2 (it works fine).

    Tom Accuosti schrieb:

    > | Granted. Query: Does it really communicate MORE? And how much time was
    > | involved? Perhaps a simple Notepad .txt document would have done the
    > | job. Granted, a serious business proposal or sales document needs to be
    > | much more than a text file, and there are times when one really needs to
    > | grab someone's attention. But I've seen far too much time spent on
    > | creating and (trying) to read a simple message buried under sound,
    > | graphics and fonts.
    >
    >
    > After I posted, I just *knew* that somebody would mention this, although
    > I was betting it would have been someone else.


    Could have been me

    > This is a side issue, though, because if people *want* to make overly
    > large multi-part multimedia documents, then they should be allowed to do
    > so.


    Well, and since we got nuclear bombs, people have to be allowed to use
    them agains their neighbours?
    Well - highly overdrawn, but the same underlying argumentation.

    > We don't have to *like* them .


    Unfortunately we have to endure them.

    > OTOH, I know someone who has a
    > standard format for certain reports that are linked to constantly
    > updated spreadsheets, so when the reports are viewed they have
    > up-to-date bar graphs and pie charts, which certainly cuts down on those
    > last minute changes by the pointy-haired bosses who love to see those
    > things.


    Nice thing. Indeed. Where it fits.
    But getting a simple office note 'please call me back' as a 500KB PDF
    with all bells and whistles does surely not fit.
    And this is a real example - and the normal case and not the exception.

    > Back in grad school, I had a prof who was always going on about this or
    > that journal. So I did a paper, but used some early desktop publishing
    > software ( I had Geos, but I ended up using Publish It!) to format a
    > paper to make it look as if it had been published in a certain academic
    > journal. Two columns, inset text boxes, etc. It didn't give any more
    > information than a typed double-spaced term paper, but it looked as cool
    > as hell, and she probably marked it up a few extra points just for the
    > novelty.


    Maybe - and if, then just because she didn't know that the program made
    the work and not you
    OTOH, you downgraded the work of your mates - which might have the same
    information but then was rated less.
    So what happened? Instead of learning the lessons, they had to buy
    publishing software and learn how to use it, just to get the same number
    of points.
    Doesn't sound right, isn't right and unfortunately is a normal thing
    these days.

    Grossibaer

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