Error in IHE Technical Framework Vol III - DICOM

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  1. Error in IHE Technical Framework Vol III

    Hello,

    I found an error in IHE Technical Framework Vol. III but I don't know
    where to report. Can someone please tell me where should I address
    this?
    Thanks
    Stephan

  2. Re: Error in IHE Technical Framework Vol III

    Send it to me.

    David

    Stephan wrote:
    > Hello,
    >
    > I found an error in IHE Technical Framework Vol. III but I don't know
    > where to report. Can someone please tell me where should I address
    > this?
    > Thanks
    > Stephan


  3. Re: Error in IHE Technical Framework Vol III

    I found an Error in DICOM .. can I contact you , David ?

    David Clunie wrote:
    > Send it to me.
    >
    > David
    >
    > Stephan wrote:
    > > Hello,
    > >
    > > I found an error in IHE Technical Framework Vol. III but I don't know
    > > where to report. Can someone please tell me where should I address
    > > this?
    > > Thanks
    > > Stephan


  4. Re: Error in IHE Technical Framework Vol III

    Of course.

    Q8PACS-ADMIN wrote:
    > I found an Error in DICOM .. can I contact you , David ?
    >
    > David Clunie wrote:
    >> Send it to me.
    >>
    >> David
    >>
    >> Stephan wrote:
    >>> Hello,
    >>>
    >>> I found an error in IHE Technical Framework Vol. III but I don't know
    >>> where to report. Can someone please tell me where should I address
    >>> this?
    >>> Thanks
    >>> Stephan


  5. Re: Error in IHE Technical Framework Vol III

    Hi David,

    I noticed one day that some Modalities have different definition for
    DICOM tag (0018,0088) "Spacing Between Slices". In fact, modality
    measures space between slices as space between internal edges between
    two consequent ones. however, DICOM part3 2007 measures the spacing
    between the slices as distance between center of two consequent
    slices.

    In different words, the relation between the two definition is
    SS(DICOM) = SS(Modality) + Slice Thickness

    Therefore, we will end up exchanging wrong information after words.

    Is there any other DICOM tag where SS(MODALITY) is sent ?

    If not, Can some body bring this issue to DICOM meetings ?

    Thanks David,



    On Sep 26, 3:09*pm, David Clunie wrote:
    > Of course.
    >
    > Q8PACS-ADMIN wrote:
    > > I found an Error in DICOM .. can I contact you , David ?

    >
    > > David Clunie wrote:
    > >> Send it to me.

    >
    > >> David

    >
    > >> Stephan wrote:
    > >>> Hello,

    >
    > >>> I found an error in IHE Technical Framework Vol. III but I don't know
    > >>> where to report. Can someone please tell me where should I address
    > >>> this?
    > >>> Thanks
    > >>> Stephan



  6. Re: Error in IHE Technical Framework Vol III

    Hi David,

    I noticed one day that some Modalities have different definition for
    DICOM tag (0018,0088) "Spacing Between Slices". In fact, modality
    measures space between slices as space between internal edges between
    two consequent ones. however, DICOM part3 2007 measures the spacing
    between the slices as distance between center of two consequent
    slices.

    In different words, the relation between the two definition is
    SS(DICOM) = SS(Modality) + Slice Thickness

    Therefore, we will end up exchanging wrong information after words.

    Is there any other DICOM tag where SS(MODALITY) is sent ?

    If not, Can some body bring this issue to DICOM meetings ?

    Thanks David,



    On Sep 26, 3:09*pm, David Clunie wrote:
    > Of course.
    >
    > Q8PACS-ADMIN wrote:
    > > I found an Error in DICOM .. can I contact you , David ?

    >
    > > David Clunie wrote:
    > >> Send it to me.

    >
    > >> David

    >
    > >> Stephan wrote:
    > >>> Hello,

    >
    > >>> I found an error in IHE Technical Framework Vol. III but I don't know
    > >>> where to report. Can someone please tell me where should I address
    > >>> this?
    > >>> Thanks
    > >>> Stephan



  7. Spacing Between Slices, was Re: Error in IHE Technical FrameworkVol III

    Hi Hussein

    There is no "error in DICOM" in this respect ... the meaning of
    (0018,0088) is clear (between centers not adjacent edges).

    If some modalities are sending a value that is different in that
    attribute, then there is an "error in the modality", i.e., a bug,
    and you should complain to the vendor.

    If you want to compute the spacing between the edges, subtract
    Slick Thickness (0018,0050) from Spacing Between Slices (0018,0088).

    DICOM will not add a new attribute for "spacing between edges"
    since there is no need for it (i.e., it can be computed).

    David

    Hussein wrote:
    > Hi David,
    >
    > I noticed one day that some Modalities have different definition for
    > DICOM tag (0018,0088) "Spacing Between Slices". In fact, modality
    > measures space between slices as space between internal edges between
    > two consequent ones. however, DICOM part3 2007 measures the spacing
    > between the slices as distance between center of two consequent
    > slices.
    >
    > In different words, the relation between the two definition is
    > SS(DICOM) = SS(Modality) + Slice Thickness
    >
    > Therefore, we will end up exchanging wrong information after words.
    >
    > Is there any other DICOM tag where SS(MODALITY) is sent ?
    >
    > If not, Can some body bring this issue to DICOM meetings ?
    >
    > Thanks David,
    >
    >
    >
    > On Sep 26, 3:09 pm, David Clunie wrote:
    >> Of course.
    >>
    >> Q8PACS-ADMIN wrote:
    >>> I found an Error in DICOM .. can I contact you , David ?
    >>> David Clunie wrote:
    >>>> Send it to me.
    >>>> David
    >>>> Stephan wrote:
    >>>>> Hello,
    >>>>> I found an error in IHE Technical Framework Vol. III but I don't know
    >>>>> where to report. Can someone please tell me where should I address
    >>>>> this?
    >>>>> Thanks
    >>>>> Stephan

    >


  8. Re: Spacing Between Slices, was Re: Error in IHE Technical FrameworkVol III

    David,

    I'm saying this is wrong because DICOM definition is not consistant
    with practice. I've asked a couple of radiologist about their
    definition of Slice spacing and they didn't agree with DICOM
    definition Plus DICOM definition is not consistent with the TAG
    name .. "spacing between slices"..

    If you ask any person about the space between any two things then he
    will not agree with DICOM definition..


    Thanks,
    Hussein

    On Sep 30, 7:38*pm, David Clunie wrote:
    > Hi Hussein
    >
    > There is no "error in DICOM" in this respect ... the meaning of
    > (0018,0088) is clear (between centers not adjacent edges).
    >
    > If some modalities are sending a value that is different in that
    > attribute, then there is an "error in the modality", i.e., a bug,
    > and you should complain to the vendor.
    >
    > If you want to compute the spacing between the edges, subtract
    > Slick Thickness (0018,0050) from Spacing Between Slices (0018,0088).
    >
    > DICOM will not add a new attribute for "spacing between edges"
    > since there is no need for it (i.e., it can be computed).
    >
    > David
    >
    >
    >
    > Hussein wrote:
    > > Hi David,

    >
    > > I noticed one day that some Modalities have different definition for
    > > DICOM tag (0018,0088) "Spacing Between Slices". In fact, modality
    > > measures space between slices as space between internal edges between
    > > two consequent ones. however, DICOM part3 2007 measures the spacing
    > > between the slices as distance between center of two consequent
    > > slices.

    >
    > > In different words, the relation between the two definition is
    > > SS(DICOM) *= SS(Modality) + Slice Thickness

    >
    > > Therefore, we will end up exchanging wrong information after words.

    >
    > > Is there any other DICOM tag where SS(MODALITY) is sent ?

    >
    > > If not, Can some body bring this issue to DICOM meetings ?

    >
    > > Thanks David,

    >
    > > On Sep 26, 3:09 pm, David Clunie wrote:
    > >> Of course.

    >
    > >> Q8PACS-ADMIN wrote:
    > >>> I found an Error in DICOM .. can I contact you , David ?
    > >>> David Clunie wrote:
    > >>>> Send it to me.
    > >>>> David
    > >>>> Stephan wrote:
    > >>>>> Hello,
    > >>>>> I found an error in IHE Technical Framework Vol. III but I don't know
    > >>>>> where to report. Can someone please tell me where should I address
    > >>>>> this?
    > >>>>> Thanks
    > >>>>> Stephan- Hide quoted text -

    >
    > - Show quoted text -



  9. Re: Spacing Between Slices, was Re: Error in IHE Technical FrameworkVol III

    Hi Hussein

    The name of the tag is irrelevant; the definition in the standard
    is clear and unambiguous and is not going to be changed.

    What the user needs/wants to see can be computed from the parameters
    provided.

    There is only one "practice" here as far as modality engineers are
    concerned, and that is to a) encode attributes as DICOM specifies,
    and b) convert those appropriate into what the user needs to
    see when displayed.

    David

    Hussein wrote:
    > David,
    >
    > I'm saying this is wrong because DICOM definition is not consistant
    > with practice. I've asked a couple of radiologist about their
    > definition of Slice spacing and they didn't agree with DICOM
    > definition Plus DICOM definition is not consistent with the TAG
    > name .. "spacing between slices"..
    >
    > If you ask any person about the space between any two things then he
    > will not agree with DICOM definition..
    >
    >
    > Thanks,
    > Hussein
    >
    > On Sep 30, 7:38 pm, David Clunie wrote:
    >> Hi Hussein
    >>
    >> There is no "error in DICOM" in this respect ... the meaning of
    >> (0018,0088) is clear (between centers not adjacent edges).
    >>
    >> If some modalities are sending a value that is different in that
    >> attribute, then there is an "error in the modality", i.e., a bug,
    >> and you should complain to the vendor.
    >>
    >> If you want to compute the spacing between the edges, subtract
    >> Slick Thickness (0018,0050) from Spacing Between Slices (0018,0088).
    >>
    >> DICOM will not add a new attribute for "spacing between edges"
    >> since there is no need for it (i.e., it can be computed).
    >>
    >> David
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> Hussein wrote:
    >>> Hi David,
    >>> I noticed one day that some Modalities have different definition for
    >>> DICOM tag (0018,0088) "Spacing Between Slices". In fact, modality
    >>> measures space between slices as space between internal edges between
    >>> two consequent ones. however, DICOM part3 2007 measures the spacing
    >>> between the slices as distance between center of two consequent
    >>> slices.
    >>> In different words, the relation between the two definition is
    >>> SS(DICOM) = SS(Modality) + Slice Thickness
    >>> Therefore, we will end up exchanging wrong information after words.
    >>> Is there any other DICOM tag where SS(MODALITY) is sent ?
    >>> If not, Can some body bring this issue to DICOM meetings ?
    >>> Thanks David,
    >>> On Sep 26, 3:09 pm, David Clunie wrote:
    >>>> Of course.
    >>>> Q8PACS-ADMIN wrote:
    >>>>> I found an Error in DICOM .. can I contact you , David ?
    >>>>> David Clunie wrote:
    >>>>>> Send it to me.
    >>>>>> David
    >>>>>> Stephan wrote:
    >>>>>>> Hello,
    >>>>>>> I found an error in IHE Technical Framework Vol. III but I don't know
    >>>>>>> where to report. Can someone please tell me where should I address
    >>>>>>> this?
    >>>>>>> Thanks
    >>>>>>> Stephan- Hide quoted text -

    >> - Show quoted text -

    >


  10. Re: Spacing Between Slices, was Re: Error in IHE Technical FrameworkVol III

    Hi David,

    I understand you point of view, but so far All radiologists(user) I
    met they agree with the modality definition.

    Thanks,

    On Oct 1, 11:13*pm, David Clunie wrote:
    > Hi Hussein
    >
    > The name of the tag is irrelevant; the definition in the standard
    > is clear and unambiguous and is not going to be changed.
    >
    > What the user needs/wants to see can be computed from the parameters
    > provided.
    >
    > There is only one "practice" here as far as modality engineers are
    > concerned, and that is to a) encode attributes as DICOM specifies,
    > and b) convert those appropriate into what the user needs to
    > see when displayed.
    >
    > David
    >
    > Hussein wrote:
    > > David,

    >
    > > I'm saying this is wrong because DICOM definition is not consistant
    > > with practice. I've asked a couple of radiologist about their
    > > definition of Slice spacing and they didn't agree with DICOM
    > > definition Plus DICOM definition is not consistent with the TAG
    > > name .. "spacing between slices"..

    >
    > > If you ask any person about the space between any two things then he
    > > will not agree with DICOM definition..

    >
    > > Thanks,
    > > Hussein

    >
    > > On Sep 30, 7:38 pm, David Clunie wrote:
    > >> Hi Hussein

    >
    > >> There is no "error in DICOM" in this respect ... the meaning of
    > >> (0018,0088) is clear (between centers not adjacent edges).

    >
    > >> If some modalities are sending a value that is different in that
    > >> attribute, then there is an "error in the modality", i.e., a bug,
    > >> and you should complain to the vendor.

    >
    > >> If you want to compute the spacing between the edges, subtract
    > >> Slick Thickness (0018,0050) from Spacing Between Slices (0018,0088).

    >
    > >> DICOM will not add a new attribute for "spacing between edges"
    > >> since there is no need for it (i.e., it can be computed).

    >
    > >> David

    >
    > >> Hussein wrote:
    > >>> Hi David,
    > >>> I noticed one day that some Modalities have different definition for
    > >>> DICOM tag (0018,0088) "Spacing Between Slices". In fact, modality
    > >>> measures space between slices as space between internal edges between
    > >>> two consequent ones. however, DICOM part3 2007 measures the spacing
    > >>> between the slices as distance between center of two consequent
    > >>> slices.
    > >>> In different words, the relation between the two definition is
    > >>> SS(DICOM) *= SS(Modality) + Slice Thickness
    > >>> Therefore, we will end up exchanging wrong information after words.
    > >>> Is there any other DICOM tag where SS(MODALITY) is sent ?
    > >>> If not, Can some body bring this issue to DICOM meetings ?
    > >>> Thanks David,
    > >>> On Sep 26, 3:09 pm, David Clunie wrote:
    > >>>> Of course.
    > >>>> Q8PACS-ADMIN wrote:
    > >>>>> I found an Error in DICOM .. can I contact you , David ?
    > >>>>> David Clunie wrote:
    > >>>>>> Send it to me.
    > >>>>>> David
    > >>>>>> Stephan wrote:
    > >>>>>>> Hello,
    > >>>>>>> I found an error in IHE Technical Framework Vol. III but I don't know
    > >>>>>>> where to report. Can someone please tell me where should I address
    > >>>>>>> this?
    > >>>>>>> Thanks
    > >>>>>>> Stephan- Hide quoted text -
    > >> - Show quoted text -



  11. Re: Spacing Between Slices, was Re: Error in IHE Technical FrameworkVol III

    Well, I'm a radiologist, and I don't know of any other radiologist
    in our group or specialty (cancer clinical trials), who think in
    any other terms than 'slice thickness' and "reconstruction interval',
    the latter being the same as the spacing between the centers of
    slices. Occasionally, I used to hear folks refer to the 'skip',
    the distance between the edges, but not recently.

    But like I said, it doesn't matter as long as implementers read
    the standard and follow it exactly, and don't encode the 'skip'
    in the attribute that is defined to be the distance between
    centers.

    David

    Hussein wrote:
    > Hi David,
    >
    > I understand you point of view, but so far All radiologists(user) I
    > met they agree with the modality definition.
    >
    > Thanks,
    >
    > On Oct 1, 11:13 pm, David Clunie wrote:
    >> Hi Hussein
    >>
    >> The name of the tag is irrelevant; the definition in the standard
    >> is clear and unambiguous and is not going to be changed.
    >>
    >> What the user needs/wants to see can be computed from the parameters
    >> provided.
    >>
    >> There is only one "practice" here as far as modality engineers are
    >> concerned, and that is to a) encode attributes as DICOM specifies,
    >> and b) convert those appropriate into what the user needs to
    >> see when displayed.
    >>
    >> David
    >>
    >> Hussein wrote:
    >>> David,
    >>> I'm saying this is wrong because DICOM definition is not consistant
    >>> with practice. I've asked a couple of radiologist about their
    >>> definition of Slice spacing and they didn't agree with DICOM
    >>> definition Plus DICOM definition is not consistent with the TAG
    >>> name .. "spacing between slices"..
    >>> If you ask any person about the space between any two things then he
    >>> will not agree with DICOM definition..
    >>> Thanks,
    >>> Hussein
    >>> On Sep 30, 7:38 pm, David Clunie wrote:
    >>>> Hi Hussein
    >>>> There is no "error in DICOM" in this respect ... the meaning of
    >>>> (0018,0088) is clear (between centers not adjacent edges).
    >>>> If some modalities are sending a value that is different in that
    >>>> attribute, then there is an "error in the modality", i.e., a bug,
    >>>> and you should complain to the vendor.
    >>>> If you want to compute the spacing between the edges, subtract
    >>>> Slick Thickness (0018,0050) from Spacing Between Slices (0018,0088).
    >>>> DICOM will not add a new attribute for "spacing between edges"
    >>>> since there is no need for it (i.e., it can be computed).
    >>>> David
    >>>> Hussein wrote:
    >>>>> Hi David,
    >>>>> I noticed one day that some Modalities have different definition for
    >>>>> DICOM tag (0018,0088) "Spacing Between Slices". In fact, modality
    >>>>> measures space between slices as space between internal edges between
    >>>>> two consequent ones. however, DICOM part3 2007 measures the spacing
    >>>>> between the slices as distance between center of two consequent
    >>>>> slices.
    >>>>> In different words, the relation between the two definition is
    >>>>> SS(DICOM) = SS(Modality) + Slice Thickness
    >>>>> Therefore, we will end up exchanging wrong information after words.
    >>>>> Is there any other DICOM tag where SS(MODALITY) is sent ?
    >>>>> If not, Can some body bring this issue to DICOM meetings ?
    >>>>> Thanks David,
    >>>>> On Sep 26, 3:09 pm, David Clunie wrote:
    >>>>>> Of course.
    >>>>>> Q8PACS-ADMIN wrote:
    >>>>>>> I found an Error in DICOM .. can I contact you , David ?
    >>>>>>> David Clunie wrote:
    >>>>>>>> Send it to me.
    >>>>>>>> David
    >>>>>>>> Stephan wrote:
    >>>>>>>>> Hello,
    >>>>>>>>> I found an error in IHE Technical Framework Vol. III but I don't know
    >>>>>>>>> where to report. Can someone please tell me where should I address
    >>>>>>>>> this?
    >>>>>>>>> Thanks
    >>>>>>>>> Stephan- Hide quoted text -
    >>>> - Show quoted text -

    >


  12. Re: Spacing Between Slices, was Re: Error in IHE Technical FrameworkVol III

    On Oct 9, 6:18*pm, David Clunie wrote:
    > Well, I'm a radiologist, and I don't know of any other radiologist
    > in our group or specialty (cancer clinical trials), who think in
    > any other terms than 'slice thickness' and "reconstruction interval',
    > the latter being the same as the spacing between the centers of
    > slices. Occasionally, I used to hear folks refer to the 'skip',
    > the distance between the edges, but not recently.
    >


    Hussein and David,

    This is just another example of the ambiguity of English. You can get
    different responses by changing how you ask the question. It's not
    just in radiology. In carpentry you will say that the studs in a wall
    are 24" apart, and then need to remind the newcomers that you measure
    center to center not the gap between edges. The same applies for
    posts for fences. It is the same issue as radiology slices and the
    same ambiguities arise. As long as people read the definition of the
    DICOM attribute this ambiguity is removed.

  13. Re: Spacing Between Slices, was Re: Error in IHE Technical FrameworkVol III

    Hi Robert,

    This particular problem is not only because of mis understanding. It's
    is because of two different definitions. Modality uses different
    definition on when you look at the Slice spacing on console, but when
    it send through dicom interface it follows the other definition...
    this is Fatal !!! Modality Am taking about here is a GE Signa MR, and
    GE AW..


    Thanks,


    On Oct 10, 6:33*pm, Robert Horn wrote:
    > On Oct 9, 6:18*pm, David Clunie wrote:
    >
    > > Well, I'm a radiologist, and I don't know of any other radiologist
    > > in our group or specialty (cancer clinical trials), who think in
    > > any other terms than 'slice thickness' and "reconstruction interval',
    > > the latter being the same as the spacing between the centers of
    > > slices. Occasionally, I used to hear folks refer to the 'skip',
    > > the distance between the edges, but not recently.

    >
    > Hussein and David,
    >
    > This is just another example of the ambiguity of English. *You can get
    > different responses by changing how you ask the question. *It's not
    > just in radiology. *In carpentry you will say that the studs in a wall
    > are 24" apart, and then need to remind the newcomers that you measure
    > center to center not the gap between edges. *The same applies for
    > posts for fences. *It is the same issue as radiology slices and the
    > same ambiguities arise. *As long as people read the definition of the
    > DICOM attribute this ambiguity is removed.



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