ids and uids generated by me and by modality - DICOM

This is a discussion on ids and uids generated by me and by modality - DICOM ; Hello, I'm confused about ids and uids.. i read many messages but found different, opposite information sometimes. suppose that : I have an HIS and RIS work on same database. i'm creating unique patient id for each patient and unique ...

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  1. ids and uids generated by me and by modality

    Hello,

    I'm confused about ids and uids.. i read many messages but found
    different, opposite information sometimes.


    suppose that :

    I have an HIS and RIS work on same database. i'm creating unique
    patient id for each patient and unique study id when patient start a
    new visit in this already system. i'll add a pacs system that will
    work on same database.

    My questions are..

    1. can i use same patient id ? -- I think yes

    2. can i use same study id? How can i send same study id already
    created in his/ris to modality ? via ModalityWorkList Server? if MWL
    doesnt exist on pacs system?

    3. i'll get an implementation uid for pacs.. and i think study uid
    should start with that imp. uid.. But some says study uid is generated
    internally by modality itself.. how is it possible ?

    4. if possible that the modalities generate the study uid's, then the
    MR and the CT will generate different study uid's for the same visit.
    so it will be really hard to identify that the 2 studies belong to the
    same visit.


    5. if i can generate the study uid myself in HIS/RIS , how can i send
    this UID to modality? Via MWL?.. u know it is really hard for
    tecnician to write it to modality's program..

    6. if question 5 possible, will modality create series uid itself
    according to study uid ?

    7. What about series id ? can i control them ? or should i let the
    Modality Vendor put "1" or like that? i'd like to have unique series
    number for each series.. i'd like to use this number for image path..

    8. if i send SPS id and Requested Procedure id to modality via MWL,
    can i set modalities to put them into image? does every modality
    support it ?

    I dont know how modalities actually work.. which information i should
    provide them? Can i set a modality to create id itself or take from
    me?

    Thanks in advance.. Your answers will be very worthy for me..


  2. Re: ids and uids generated by me and by modality

    > 1. can i use same patient id ? -- I think yes

    You actually have to use the same patient ID consistently over all
    IT systems within one department or, preferrable, one hospital.

    > 2. can i use same study id? How can i send same study id already
    > created in his/ris to modality ? via ModalityWorkList Server? if MWL
    > doesnt exist on pacs system?


    The Study ID in DICOM has very little importance. The relevant
    identifier for the study is the Study Instance UID, and that
    should indeed be generated by the RIS and transmitted to the
    modality using DICOM MWL.

    > 3. i'll get an implementation uid for pacs.. and i think study uid
    > should start with that imp. uid.. But some says study uid is generated
    > internally by modality itself.. how is it possible ?


    You will get a UID root (which is not the same as an implementation UID)
    and should use that as a starting point to generate unique identifiers.
    When a modality receives worklist information using MWL, it will use
    the Study Instance UID provided in the worklist. If the study is started
    without MWL, then the modality will generate its own Study Instance UID.

    > 4. if possible that the modalities generate the study uid's, then the
    > MR and the CT will generate different study uid's for the same visit.
    > so it will be really hard to identify that the 2 studies belong to the
    > same visit.


    See above. This only works if both modalities support MWL and the RIS
    provides worklist entries for both systems containing the same Study
    Instance UID.

    > 5. if i can generate the study uid myself in HIS/RIS , how can i send
    > this UID to modality? Via MWL?.. u know it is really hard for
    > tecnician to write it to modality's program..


    MWL.

    > 6. if question 5 possible, will modality create series uid itself
    > according to study uid ?


    Each modality will create one or more Series Instance UIDs, and each
    image or object generated by the modality will "live" in one of these
    series which are part of the study defined in the MWL.

    > 7. What about series id ? can i control them ? or should i let the
    > Modality Vendor put "1" or like that? i'd like to have unique series
    > number for each series.. i'd like to use this number for image path..


    You cannot control the series ID, and again the series ID has very
    little meaning in DICOM. You also cannot control the Series Instance UID.
    Studies are RIS "turf", series are modality "turf".
    Series IDs are not guaranteed to be unique, in increasing order, or
    even numerical at all, and you should not even think of relying on
    this field for sorting or directory generation purposes.

    > 8. if i send SPS id and Requested Procedure id to modality via MWL,
    > can i set modalities to put them into image? does every modality
    > support it ?


    Not every modality will support this, but some will, and these will
    indeed encode the SPS ID and requested procedure ID in the images
    generated (and the related MPPS messages). For modalities not supporting this,
    there is no way to force them.

    Regards,
    Marco Eichelberg

  3. Re: ids and uids generated by me and by modality

    //This is second post, first didnt reach to the group..

    Thank you so much Marco Eichelberg.. Your answers make them clear..

    Now i have new questions according to your answers.

    if study_id has no importance for dicom, can i use it for another
    purpose ?

    i'd like to discard MPPS.. validate -the request has been
    accomplished- will be done by HIS/RIS manually..
    I'd like to use Study Id to reference to Scheduled procedure step id
    and requested procedure id.. you know study id is send to modality by
    MWL and modality put it into image and send image to PACS server. if i
    use study id to reference to SPS id (0040,0009) and Req. Pro. id
    (0040,1001) , and i hold this reference information on a table in the
    DB, does this way work?

    (table example : Column1 : study id, column2: sps id, column3:
    req_pro_id )

    Thanks in advance,
    Atila



    On 21 Mart, 18:31, Marco Eichelberg
    wrote:

    >
    > Regards,
    > Marco Eichelberg




  4. Re: ids and uids generated by me and by modality

    > if study_id has no importance for dicom, can i use it for another
    > purpose ?
    > i'd like to discard MPPS.. validate -the request has been
    > accomplished- will be done by HIS/RIS manually..
    > I'd like to use Study Id to reference to Scheduled procedure step id
    > and requested procedure id.. you know study id is send to modality by
    > MWL and modality put it into image and send image to PACS server. if i
    > use study id to reference to SPS id (0040,0009) and Req. Pro. id
    > (0040,1001) , and i hold this reference information on a table in the
    > DB, does this way work?


    The problem with this approach is that you might have multiple scheduled
    procedure steps within one study, and in this case you would generate
    different study IDs for images within the same study, which would violate
    the DICOM IOD rules and would also prevent the study ID to be reliably
    available through Query from the archive - you will only ever see the
    first (or the last, depending on the implementation) Study ID for the
    given Study (Instance UID).

    Best regards,
    Marco Eichelberg

  5. Re: ids and uids generated by me and by modality

    Hello,

    According to your answer, i checked all tags again. There is a Tag
    Accession Number (0008,0050) that i dont know how i can use.. But i
    see that it exists in both MWL and Image IOD.

    What about it? Can i use it for this matter? I can generate new
    Accession number to assign to each Requested Procedure id and hold its
    reference information in a table. It will mean both sps and Req. pro.
    id..

    Regards,
    Atila..

    On 26 Mart, 15:05, Marco Eichelberg
    wrote:
    > > if study_id has no importance for dicom, can i use it for another
    > > purpose ?
    > > i'd like to discard MPPS.. validate -the request has been
    > > accomplished- will be done by HIS/RIS manually..
    > > I'd like to use Study Id to reference to Scheduled procedure step id
    > > and requested procedure id.. you know study id is send to modality by
    > > MWL and modality put it into image and send image to PACS server. if i
    > > use study id to reference to SPS id (0040,0009) and Req. Pro. id
    > > (0040,1001) , and i hold this reference information on a table in the
    > > DB, does this way work?

    >
    > The problem with this approach is that you might have multiple scheduled
    > procedure steps within one study, and in this case you would generate
    > different study IDs for images within the same study, which would violate
    > the DICOM IOD rules and would also prevent the study ID to be reliably
    > available through Query from the archive - you will only ever see the
    > first (or the last, depending on the implementation) Study ID for the
    > given Study (Instance UID).
    >
    > Best regards,
    > Marco Eichelberg



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