Date/Time in MWL (newbie question) - DICOM

This is a discussion on Date/Time in MWL (newbie question) - DICOM ; Hi, I searched for answers to this but didn't come up with a clear answer. I'm a newbie so please help me figure this out. I am implementing a worklist SCP. If I receive the Scheduled Procedure Start Date as ...

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  1. Date/Time in MWL (newbie question)

    Hi,

    I searched for answers to this but didn't come up with a clear answer.
    I'm a newbie so please help me figure this out. I am implementing a
    worklist SCP. If I receive the Scheduled Procedure Start Date as an
    exact date (say 20060916) and receive a time range in Scheduled
    Procedure Step Start Time (lets say 3 am to 10 am), then should I
    simply ignore the 10 am and search for all matches that are after Sep
    16 3:00 AM or should I search for matches for Sep 16 3:00 AM to Sep 16
    10:00 AM? The Annex K in Part 3.4 does not make this clear to me. What
    should I do if i receive a date range and only one time value? (e.g.
    Date Range is Sep 10 - Sep 16 but time = 4:00 AM exactly)?

    I understand that if i receive a date range and a time range, then i
    combine the start date and start time into the start datetime and the
    end date and end time into a end date time. Things get a little
    confusing when only one of them is a date range.

    Thanks for your help.

    Sai


  2. Re: Date/Time in MWL (newbie question)


    sai.ramani@gmail.com wrote:


    > I understand that if i receive a date range and a time range, then i
    > combine the start date and start time into the start datetime and the
    > end date and end time into a end date time. Things get a little
    > confusing when only one of them is a date range.
    > Sai


    Hi Sai,

    The special processing for date and time range on the MWL was put into
    place after it was recognized that handling each of them independently
    would result in a query for data which might lie in many different
    discontinuous time ranges: difficult to compute and not a particularly
    useful use case.

    Handling them independently, the time range defines a distinct range
    within a 24 hour period. When combined with an independently processed
    date range, it implies a search for worklist entries within a limited
    range over multiple successive days. This was judged to be
    non-intuitive and an unlikely use case, whereas searching for a
    starting time on a starting date through to a finishing time on a
    finishing date was considered to be a truly useful query.

    For the case where you have a scalar/single value for the date and a
    time range, you should search for all entries whose scheduled time lies
    between:

    Date@Starting Time through the time Date@Ending Time -- i.e find
    entries where scheduled datetime is greater than the specified Date+
    specified Start time and less than the specific Date+ Specified End
    time.


  3. Re: Date/Time in MWL (newbie question)

    Thanks for your reply, Eric. That does clear it up for me except for
    the "unlikely" (but still possible ?) usage scenario where a user
    supplies a single time (scalar) and a date range? Should I then simply
    ignore the time provided and treat the date range as my matching
    criteria?

    e.g
    Date Range = "Sep 14 - Sep 16"
    Time = "4:00 AM"

    Should I match for

    "Sep 14 4:00 AM - Sep 16 4:00 AM"

    or

    "Sep 14 12:00 AM - Sep 16 11:59:59 PM"

    Thanks for the help.

    Sai


  4. Re: Date/Time in MWL (newbie question)

    hi

    I am a newbie too so i am not answering your issue,but i want you to
    help me out with some of the issues.

    I want to create a MWL which connects to RIS system and
    MODALITY(CT,CR),

    I need some light on issues like,

    1)how will Modality queries the MWL and what it usually queries.

    2)When MWL will get the Hl7 message from RIS i,e weather on patient
    admission?

    because i am currently sending SIU S12 type of message that is
    created upon patient registration and this message does'nt have
    segments like ORM ,OCR,ORB (this kind of message i saw in an example
    message) .

    In other words i want you to tell me the setup b/w RIS and MWL and
    example message.

    3)Modality and MWl ::now i suppose MWL is an scp i want to know what
    it actually sends to the Modality for what kind of request.

    In otherwords simple setup b/w Modality and MWL with some example
    message.

    I hope you will find time to answer my issues.

    Thanks in adwance.

    swamy.















    sai.ramani@gmail.com wrote:
    > Thanks for your reply, Eric. That does clear it up for me except for
    > the "unlikely" (but still possible ?) usage scenario where a user
    > supplies a single time (scalar) and a date range? Should I then simply
    > ignore the time provided and treat the date range as my matching
    > criteria?
    >
    > e.g
    > Date Range = "Sep 14 - Sep 16"
    > Time = "4:00 AM"
    >
    > Should I match for
    >
    > "Sep 14 4:00 AM - Sep 16 4:00 AM"
    >
    > or
    >
    > "Sep 14 12:00 AM - Sep 16 11:59:59 PM"
    >
    > Thanks for the help.
    >
    > Sai



  5. Re: Date/Time in MWL (newbie question)

    hi

    I am a newbie too so i am not answering your issue,but i want you to
    help me out with some of the issues.

    I want to create a MWL which connects to RIS system and
    MODALITY(CT,CR),

    I need some light on issues like,

    1)how will Modality queries the MWL and what it usually queries.

    2)When MWL will get the Hl7 message from RIS i,e weather on patient
    admission?

    because i am currently sending SIU S12 type of message that is
    created upon patient registration and this message does'nt have
    segments like ORM ,OCR,ORB (this kind of message i saw in an example
    message) .

    In other words i want you to tell me the setup b/w RIS and MWL and
    example message.

    3)Modality and MWl ::now i suppose MWL is an scp i want to know what
    it actually sends to the Modality for what kind of request.

    In otherwords simple setup b/w Modality and MWL with some example
    message.

    I hope you will find time to answer my issues.

    Thanks in adwance.

    swamy.















    sai.ramani@gmail.com wrote:
    > Thanks for your reply, Eric. That does clear it up for me except for
    > the "unlikely" (but still possible ?) usage scenario where a user
    > supplies a single time (scalar) and a date range? Should I then simply
    > ignore the time provided and treat the date range as my matching
    > criteria?
    >
    > e.g
    > Date Range = "Sep 14 - Sep 16"
    > Time = "4:00 AM"
    >
    > Should I match for
    >
    > "Sep 14 4:00 AM - Sep 16 4:00 AM"
    >
    > or
    >
    > "Sep 14 12:00 AM - Sep 16 11:59:59 PM"
    >
    > Thanks for the help.
    >
    > Sai



  6. Re: Date/Time in MWL (newbie question)


    sai.ramani@gmail.com wrote:
    > Thanks for your reply, Eric. That does clear it up for me except for
    > the "unlikely" (but still possible ?) usage scenario where a user
    > supplies a single time (scalar) and a date range? Should I then simply
    > ignore the time provided and treat the date range as my matching
    > criteria?
    >
    > e.g
    > Date Range = "Sep 14 - Sep 16"
    > Time = "4:00 AM"
    >
    > Should I match for
    >
    > "Sep 14 4:00 AM - Sep 16 4:00 AM"
    >
    > or
    >
    > "Sep 14 12:00 AM - Sep 16 11:59:59 PM"
    >


    Ah, missed that Q in your first posting. The "special logic" for
    handling the date and time is specified in DICOM part 4, Table K.6-1
    in the cell under Scheduled Procedure Step Time. It indicates the
    special logic is invoked when range matching is specified for BOTH date
    and time. In essence, the special logic requires the SCP to use
    starting values and end values of the two attributes as DateTime VRs
    and do range matching for Scheduled Steps date and times as if they
    were also single DateTime values.

    Your question is a good one since it is range matching on the Scheduled
    Date which is in fact causing the SCP to have to search for multiple
    discontiguous date/time ranges. On the other hand, if the time
    attribute is single value, it is basically defining a list of discrete
    DateTime values to be checked for an exact match on successive days.

    According to the way the standard is written now you should treat date
    range, single time as a list of discrete values (Specific time on range
    of days)

    It is a good question as to whether that is a realistic use case. What
    you seem to be suggesting is that specification of range matching in
    only the Scheduled Date attribute should be sufficient to cause the SCP
    to do DateTime range matching rather than discrete single value
    matching -ie automatically promote the single value Scheduled Time to a
    Time Range.

    Personally, I believe that is a more realistic use case than doing
    exact value matching on a list of discrete time values. But I could be
    off base on that opinion. One could easily argue there is a use case
    for a user trying to find an appointment known to be around a certain
    time, but but uncertain about the date. Most SCPs are going to have
    some level of fuzzy logic for time matching anyway (because of the
    imprecision of the match key value). Retaining the separate handling of
    date and time for date range but single time supports both the discrete
    query model and the contiguous model, depending on whether range is
    specified in the time.

    I suggest this is probably a good subject for a correction proposal. It
    would be worthwhile to see the modality vendors' feedback on the
    behavior they would expect/anticipate in their application user
    interface for a date range, but single value time.


  7. Re: Date/Time in MWL (newbie question)

    Thanks, Eric.

    eric.goodall@gmail.com wrote:
    > sai.ramani@gmail.com wrote:
    > > Thanks for your reply, Eric. That does clear it up for me except for
    > > the "unlikely" (but still possible ?) usage scenario where a user
    > > supplies a single time (scalar) and a date range? Should I then simply
    > > ignore the time provided and treat the date range as my matching
    > > criteria?
    > >
    > > e.g
    > > Date Range = "Sep 14 - Sep 16"
    > > Time = "4:00 AM"
    > >
    > > Should I match for
    > >
    > > "Sep 14 4:00 AM - Sep 16 4:00 AM"
    > >
    > > or
    > >
    > > "Sep 14 12:00 AM - Sep 16 11:59:59 PM"
    > >

    >
    > Ah, missed that Q in your first posting. The "special logic" for
    > handling the date and time is specified in DICOM part 4, Table K.6-1
    > in the cell under Scheduled Procedure Step Time. It indicates the
    > special logic is invoked when range matching is specified for BOTH date
    > and time. In essence, the special logic requires the SCP to use
    > starting values and end values of the two attributes as DateTime VRs
    > and do range matching for Scheduled Steps date and times as if they
    > were also single DateTime values.
    >
    > Your question is a good one since it is range matching on the Scheduled
    > Date which is in fact causing the SCP to have to search for multiple
    > discontiguous date/time ranges. On the other hand, if the time
    > attribute is single value, it is basically defining a list of discrete
    > DateTime values to be checked for an exact match on successive days.
    >
    > According to the way the standard is written now you should treat date
    > range, single time as a list of discrete values (Specific time on range
    > of days)
    >
    > It is a good question as to whether that is a realistic use case. What
    > you seem to be suggesting is that specification of range matching in
    > only the Scheduled Date attribute should be sufficient to cause the SCP
    > to do DateTime range matching rather than discrete single value
    > matching -ie automatically promote the single value Scheduled Time to a
    > Time Range.
    >
    > Personally, I believe that is a more realistic use case than doing
    > exact value matching on a list of discrete time values. But I could be
    > off base on that opinion. One could easily argue there is a use case
    > for a user trying to find an appointment known to be around a certain
    > time, but but uncertain about the date. Most SCPs are going to have
    > some level of fuzzy logic for time matching anyway (because of the
    > imprecision of the match key value). Retaining the separate handling of
    > date and time for date range but single time supports both the discrete
    > query model and the contiguous model, depending on whether range is
    > specified in the time.
    >
    > I suggest this is probably a good subject for a correction proposal. It
    > would be worthwhile to see the modality vendors' feedback on the
    > behavior they would expect/anticipate in their application user
    > interface for a date range, but single value time.



  8. Re: Date/Time in MWL (newbie question)



    hi

    please answer my queries.

    sai.ramani@gmail.com wrote:
    > Thanks, Eric.
    >
    > eric.goodall@gmail.com wrote:
    > > sai.ramani@gmail.com wrote:
    > > > Thanks for your reply, Eric. That does clear it up for me except for
    > > > the "unlikely" (but still possible ?) usage scenario where a user
    > > > supplies a single time (scalar) and a date range? Should I then simply
    > > > ignore the time provided and treat the date range as my matching
    > > > criteria?
    > > >
    > > > e.g
    > > > Date Range = "Sep 14 - Sep 16"
    > > > Time = "4:00 AM"
    > > >
    > > > Should I match for
    > > >
    > > > "Sep 14 4:00 AM - Sep 16 4:00 AM"
    > > >
    > > > or
    > > >
    > > > "Sep 14 12:00 AM - Sep 16 11:59:59 PM"
    > > >

    > >
    > > Ah, missed that Q in your first posting. The "special logic" for
    > > handling the date and time is specified in DICOM part 4, Table K.6-1
    > > in the cell under Scheduled Procedure Step Time. It indicates the
    > > special logic is invoked when range matching is specified for BOTH date
    > > and time. In essence, the special logic requires the SCP to use
    > > starting values and end values of the two attributes as DateTime VRs
    > > and do range matching for Scheduled Steps date and times as if they
    > > were also single DateTime values.
    > >
    > > Your question is a good one since it is range matching on the Scheduled
    > > Date which is in fact causing the SCP to have to search for multiple
    > > discontiguous date/time ranges. On the other hand, if the time
    > > attribute is single value, it is basically defining a list of discrete
    > > DateTime values to be checked for an exact match on successive days.
    > >
    > > According to the way the standard is written now you should treat date
    > > range, single time as a list of discrete values (Specific time on range
    > > of days)
    > >
    > > It is a good question as to whether that is a realistic use case. What
    > > you seem to be suggesting is that specification of range matching in
    > > only the Scheduled Date attribute should be sufficient to cause the SCP
    > > to do DateTime range matching rather than discrete single value
    > > matching -ie automatically promote the single value Scheduled Time to a
    > > Time Range.
    > >
    > > Personally, I believe that is a more realistic use case than doing
    > > exact value matching on a list of discrete time values. But I could be
    > > off base on that opinion. One could easily argue there is a use case
    > > for a user trying to find an appointment known to be around a certain
    > > time, but but uncertain about the date. Most SCPs are going to have
    > > some level of fuzzy logic for time matching anyway (because of the
    > > imprecision of the match key value). Retaining the separate handling of
    > > date and time for date range but single time supports both the discrete
    > > query model and the contiguous model, depending on whether range is
    > > specified in the time.
    > >
    > > I suggest this is probably a good subject for a correction proposal. It
    > > would be worthwhile to see the modality vendors' feedback on the
    > > behavior they would expect/anticipate in their application user
    > > interface for a date range, but single value time.



  9. Re: Date/Time in MWL (newbie question)

    Swamy,

    It might be a good idea to start a separate thread to get questions
    answered. Jumping onto a thread and asking your own questions makes the
    thread less valuable to others who search the forums.

    One good way to understand how a Modality Worklist works would be to
    read the dicom specs. You can download it from David Clunie's website.
    http://www.dclunie.com/dicom-status/...seStandard2006

    Look in PS 3.4 Annex K (called "Basic Worklist Management Service").
    This has a lot of useful information.

    My answers (which may be incomplete at best)

    1. Modalities use C-Find to issue queries to the Modality Worklist
    Broker. There are keys that are required to be used in matching logic,
    some conditional matching logic and some optional keys. This list is
    defined in detail in the DICOM Standard (Annex K of PS 3.4)

    2.The worklist broker (SCP) will have to setup its own way of fetching
    information from the RIS. This entirely depends on your business
    scenario. Your broker can query the RIS or the RIS can notify the
    broker. Really depends on how your customers' environment is. In my
    case, there is a separate program that monitors a RIS system. The RIS
    system dumps out a notification file whenever an admission or other
    such event occurs. I then read this information into our database. When
    the modality queries the broker, the broker obtains scheduling/RIS
    information from my database.

    3. The MWL broker (SCP) will return a dataset with the results of the
    C-Find when a modality queries the MWL.

    Hope this helps.

    Sai

    thippeswamy.kn@gmail.com wrote:
    > hi
    >
    > I am a newbie too so i am not answering your issue,but i want you to
    > help me out with some of the issues.
    >
    > I want to create a MWL which connects to RIS system and
    > MODALITY(CT,CR),
    >
    > I need some light on issues like,
    >
    > 1)how will Modality queries the MWL and what it usually queries.
    >
    > 2)When MWL will get the Hl7 message from RIS i,e weather on patient
    > admission?
    >
    > because i am currently sending SIU S12 type of message that is
    > created upon patient registration and this message does'nt have
    > segments like ORM ,OCR,ORB (this kind of message i saw in an example
    > message) .
    >
    > In other words i want you to tell me the setup b/w RIS and MWL and
    > example message.
    >
    > 3)Modality and MWl ::now i suppose MWL is an scp i want to know what
    > it actually sends to the Modality for what kind of request.
    >
    > In otherwords simple setup b/w Modality and MWL with some example
    > message.
    >
    > I hope you will find time to answer my issues.
    >
    > Thanks in adwance.
    >
    > swamy.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > sai.ramani@gmail.com wrote:
    > > Thanks for your reply, Eric. That does clear it up for me except for
    > > the "unlikely" (but still possible ?) usage scenario where a user
    > > supplies a single time (scalar) and a date range? Should I then simply
    > > ignore the time provided and treat the date range as my matching
    > > criteria?
    > >
    > > e.g
    > > Date Range = "Sep 14 - Sep 16"
    > > Time = "4:00 AM"
    > >
    > > Should I match for
    > >
    > > "Sep 14 4:00 AM - Sep 16 4:00 AM"
    > >
    > > or
    > >
    > > "Sep 14 12:00 AM - Sep 16 11:59:59 PM"
    > >
    > > Thanks for the help.
    > >
    > > Sai



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