SR - DICOM

This is a discussion on SR - DICOM ; HI, Can we include annotations in DICOM SR(structured report), if so can we use comphrensive SR IOD for annotations?? Is there any free ware which creates all kinds of structured reports. Cheers.....

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Thread: SR

  1. SR

    HI,
    Can we include annotations in DICOM SR(structured report), if so can
    we use comphrensive SR IOD for annotations?? Is there any free ware
    which creates all kinds of structured reports.

    Cheers..


  2. Re: SR

    Radde wrote:

    > Can we include annotations in DICOM SR(structured report), if so
    > can we use comphrensive SR IOD for annotations??


    What do you mean by annotations in this context? As my colleague
    Marco Eichelberg wrote a couple of days ago in this newsgroup:

    "Structured reports allow you to store text and reference to images,
    but they have no well-defined presentation layout, so they are not
    suitable (nor intended) for storing graphical annotations."

    I guess, Grayscale Softcopy Presentation States (GSPS) are what you
    are looking for.

    > Is there any free ware which creates all kinds of structured reports.


    The OFFIS DICOM toolkit DCMTK provides tools and high-level C++ classes
    for this purpose. You can download it from http://dicom.offis.de/dcmtk .

    Regards,
    Joerg Riesmeier
    OFFIS

  3. Re: SR

    "Structured reports allow you to store text and reference to images,
    > but they have no well-defined presentation layout, so they are not
    > suitable (nor intended) for storing graphical annotations."

    In Structured Report supplement 43, there is Spatial coordinate
    macro(SCORD), there are attributes Graphic data and Graphic Type, so i
    thought we can use to store annotations. What do you mean by "but they
    have no well-defined presentation layout". In GSPS also i find same
    thing Graphic data and Graphic type. I dont understand if there is GSPS
    to store annotations, why this Spatial coordinate macro is defined in
    Structured Report? When we should reports and GSPS? Basically i want
    store annotations and reports in standard DICOM format.

    > Joerg Riesmeier wrote:
    > Radde wrote:
    >
    > > Can we include annotations in DICOM SR(structured report), if so
    > > can we use comphrensive SR IOD for annotations??


    The OFFIS DICOM toolkit DCMTK provides tools and high-level C++ classes
    > for this purpose. You can download it from

    http://dicom.offis.de/dcmtk .
    I will definitly go through it.

    Cheers.

    >
    > What do you mean by annotations in this context? As my colleague
    > Marco Eichelberg wrote a couple of days ago in this newsgroup:
    >
    > "Structured reports allow you to store text and reference to images,
    > but they have no well-defined presentation layout, so they are not
    > suitable (nor intended) for storing graphical annotations."
    >
    > I guess, Grayscale Softcopy Presentation States (GSPS) are what you
    > are looking for.
    >
    > > Is there any free ware which creates all kinds of structured

    reports.
    >
    > The OFFIS DICOM toolkit DCMTK provides tools and high-level C++

    classes
    > for this purpose. You can download it from

    http://dicom.offis.de/dcmtk .
    >
    > Regards,
    > Joerg Riesmeier
    > OFFIS



  4. Re: SR

    Radde wrote:

    > In Structured Report supplement 43, there is Spatial coordinate
    > macro(SCORD), there are attributes Graphic data and Graphic Type,
    > so i thought we can use to store annotations.


    Sure, you can store annotations but the visual presentation is not
    defined. Structured Reporting is about semantic information, e.g.
    these information can be evaluated automatically.

    > Basically i want store annotations and reports in standard DICOM
    > format.


    Then DICOM SR is the right candidate as long as you do not expect
    other systems to display your reports (incl. the image annotations)
    in the same way. DICOM PS 3.4 section O.2.2 only requires that:
    "An SCP intending to display or otherwise render a Structured Report
    shall convey its full meaning in an unambiguous manner."

    Regards,
    Joerg Riesmeier

  5. Re: SR

    Thank you,
    Then DICOM SR is the right candidate as long as you do not expect
    > other systems to display your reports (incl. the image annotations)
    > in the same way. DICOM PS 3.4 section O.2.2 only requires that:
    > "An SCP intending to display or otherwise render a Structured Report
    > shall convey its full meaning in an unambiguous manner."


    Still, iam not very clear about when to use GSPS and SR? Iam not able
    to find it. what i understand now is GSPS is used to apply set of
    functionalaties(LUTs,annotaions,spatial transforms) to stored image
    when displaying it, SR is used to store just diagonistic information.
    Is this right? Are there any major differences?

    Joerg Riesmeier wrote:
    > Radde wrote:
    >
    > > In Structured Report supplement 43, there is Spatial coordinate
    > > macro(SCORD), there are attributes Graphic data and Graphic Type,
    > > so i thought we can use to store annotations.

    >
    > Sure, you can store annotations but the visual presentation is not
    > defined. Structured Reporting is about semantic information, e.g.
    > these information can be evaluated automatically.
    >
    > > Basically i want store annotations and reports in standard DICOM
    > > format.

    >
    > Then DICOM SR is the right candidate as long as you do not expect
    > other systems to display your reports (incl. the image annotations)
    > in the same way. DICOM PS 3.4 section O.2.2 only requires that:
    > "An SCP intending to display or otherwise render a Structured Report
    > shall convey its full meaning in an unambiguous manner."
    >
    > Regards,
    > Joerg Riesmeier



  6. Re: SR

    Thank you,
    Then DICOM SR is the right candidate as long as you do not expect
    > other systems to display your reports (incl. the image annotations)
    > in the same way. DICOM PS 3.4 section O.2.2 only requires that:
    > "An SCP intending to display or otherwise render a Structured Report
    > shall convey its full meaning in an unambiguous manner."


    Still, iam not very clear about when to use GSPS and SR? Iam not able
    to find it. what i understand now is GSPS is used to apply set of
    functionalaties(LUTs,annotaions,spatial transforms) to stored image
    when displaying it, SR is used to store just diagonistic information.
    Is this right? Are there any major differences?

    cheers
    Joerg Riesmeier wrote:
    > Radde wrote:
    >
    > > In Structured Report supplement 43, there is Spatial coordinate
    > > macro(SCORD), there are attributes Graphic data and Graphic Type,
    > > so i thought we can use to store annotations.

    >
    > Sure, you can store annotations but the visual presentation is not
    > defined. Structured Reporting is about semantic information, e.g.
    > these information can be evaluated automatically.
    >
    > > Basically i want store annotations and reports in standard DICOM
    > > format.

    >
    > Then DICOM SR is the right candidate as long as you do not expect
    > other systems to display your reports (incl. the image annotations)
    > in the same way. DICOM PS 3.4 section O.2.2 only requires that:
    > "An SCP intending to display or otherwise render a Structured Report
    > shall convey its full meaning in an unambiguous manner."
    >
    > Regards,
    > Joerg Riesmeier



  7. Re: SR

    Use SR when you care that the receiver of content you're generating
    knows what it means, but not how it looks.

    Use GSPS when you care what the receiver of the content you're
    generating sees, but not what it means. Or for GSPS when you believe
    what the receiver of the content sees definitely defines what it means
    -- note computer extraction of semantic content from visual information
    is not a well defined science. GSPS annotations are meant to be seen by
    human beings, not to be read by a computer.


    Consider measurement of a tumor mass in an image. An SR would be used
    when you want to capture the fact that a) there is a mass b) its
    diameter is 4 mm c) it is located in the d) it
    is located at some coordinate x,y in image q

    A GSPS graphic annotation would be used when you want a rad/doctor
    viewing the image to see a line next to which he (she) would see the
    characters 4mm at a particular location (x,y) in image q.

    The only thing common in these two examples is item d from the SR, even
    though the end meaning is the same. A computer could take the content
    of the SR and put it into many differnet contexts. The GSPS could only
    be displayed. All inferences and transfer of the content would have to
    take place through human interpretation/repetition.


  8. Re: SR

    Thank you eric.
    eric.goodall@gmail.com wrote:
    > Use SR when you care that the receiver of content you're generating
    > knows what it means, but not how it looks.
    >
    > Use GSPS when you care what the receiver of the content you're
    > generating sees, but not what it means. Or for GSPS when you believe
    > what the receiver of the content sees definitely defines what it

    means
    > -- note computer extraction of semantic content from visual

    information
    > is not a well defined science. GSPS annotations are meant to be seen

    by
    > human beings, not to be read by a computer.
    >
    >
    > Consider measurement of a tumor mass in an image. An SR would be used
    > when you want to capture the fact that a) there is a mass b) its
    > diameter is 4 mm c) it is located in the d)

    it
    > is located at some coordinate x,y in image q
    >
    > A GSPS graphic annotation would be used when you want a rad/doctor
    > viewing the image to see a line next to which he (she) would see the
    > characters 4mm at a particular location (x,y) in image q.
    >
    > The only thing common in these two examples is item d from the SR,

    even
    > though the end meaning is the same. A computer could take the content
    > of the SR and put it into many differnet contexts. The GSPS could

    only
    > be displayed. All inferences and transfer of the content would have

    to
    > take place through human interpretation/repetition.



  9. Re: SR

    Hi,
    I trying to unsderstand SR and I've got pb: can you say me if I'm
    right??
    Here is my case:
    I created one or more Secondary Capture representing views of DICOM
    images. Next, I created a Basic Voice Audio Waveform contening audio
    dictation. I want to create a report with these elements. So I think
    I've to make a SR report (Comprehensive SR) referencing it.
    Here is my question:
    when you store your SR (on a PACS for example) you have to store on the
    same time all referenced DICOM objects??? Because they are just
    referenced on SR and not contening in SR????

    Thx


  10. Re: SR

    steph.tro@voila.fr wrote:
    > when you store your SR (on a PACS for example) you have to store on the
    > same time all referenced DICOM objects??? Because they are just
    > referenced on SR and not contening in SR????


    The normal use case would be that the images are already in the PACS
    before the SR document gets created, but you are right: The images are
    only referenced and not contained in the SR document. If the reader
    needs to be able to display the images (and not just thumbnails which
    may be included in the report), they need to be available, preferrably
    in the same archive.

    Regards,
    Marco Eichelberg

  11. Re: SR

    Thx for your help!

    I have others questions:
    - The Comprehensive SR is the best way for me to link my Secondary
    Capture(s) and my audio dictation ?? I ask this question because at the
    present time I don't want to save text, just Audio and SC.
    - I have to create my SC, Waveform and SR objects and next store each
    of it on SCP??
    - All PACS (or C-STORE SCP) support Basic Voice Audio Waveform Storage
    Class??

    Regards.


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