Service Manuals Needed for RA60, RA81 and/or RA92 - DEC

This is a discussion on Service Manuals Needed for RA60, RA81 and/or RA92 - DEC ; fOn Fri, 16 Feb 07 12:43:52 GMT in alt.sys.pdp10, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >In article , > John Everett wrote: > >'ey, John. :-) > > >>On 14 Feb 2007 16:46:49 -0800, Eric Smith wrote: >> >>>Carl Appellof wrote: >>>> Nor much ...

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Thread: Service Manuals Needed for RA60, RA81 and/or RA92

  1. Re: Computers as heaters

    fOn Fri, 16 Feb 07 12:43:52 GMT in alt.sys.pdp10, jmfbahciv@aol.com
    wrote:

    >In article ,
    > John Everett wrote:
    >
    >'ey, John. :-)
    >
    >
    >>On 14 Feb 2007 16:46:49 -0800, Eric Smith wrote:
    >>
    >>>Carl Appellof wrote:
    >>>> Nor much power for the rest of the dorm if you're talking about a KL.
    >>>> Nothing like ECL logic to generate a little heat.
    >>>
    >>>One of the great features of the KL10 is that it also functions as a
    >>>better than 99% efficient electric heater. If you live somewhere that
    >>>gets cold in the winter, use it to heat your house. The rest of the
    >>>year, you can use it with a heat pump to heat your swimming pool.

    >>
    >>Back when I worked for First Data (the original First Data, not the
    >>current one) we were located on Totten Pond Road in Waltham Mass. We
    >>had a fire in our building and decided to relocate to 40 Second
    >>Avenue, across 128 from our original building. We decided to replace
    >>our fire damaged KAs and KIs with the then new KLs. We had a raised
    >>floor computer room installed in the warehouse we had purchased (with
    >>our insurance settlement) and had the cooling system designed so that
    >>we could use the output of the heat exchangers to heat the rest of the
    >>building. Even though the old heating plant remained in the building I
    >>don't believe it was ever necessary to turn it on. The KLs provided
    >>all the heat we needed.

    >
    >Marlboro liked to keep their humans cold. I often went into
    >the machine room and cuddled against 1026 to get warm. Whenever
    >I was using the 11/70, I'd have to get up and cuddle next to
    >1026 every half hour or so.


    IBM computer rooms in Canada were kept around 15C (60F). Spent six 16
    hour days in one, benchmarking a database on a pre-release machine, one
    week. There was no shortage of volunteers to get/take the "mobile" tape
    drive from/to its normal home when we needed it. Any excuse for a break
    was welcomed. Lots of coffee and pizza were consumed. Brrrr!

    --
    Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada

    Brian.Inglis@CSi.com (Brian[dot]Inglis{at}SystematicSW[dot]ab[dot]ca)
    fake address use address above to reply

  2. Re: Computers as heaters

    On Fri, 16 Feb 2007, glen herrmannsfeldt wrote:
    > Alfred Falk wrote:
    >
    > (snip)
    >
    >> While conversion of electricity to heat is very effecient, conversion of
    >> other energy sources to electricity isn't. Consequently electric
    >> heating may be much more expensive than burning fuels on site. Around
    >> here that's reflected in energy prices that used to favour natural gas
    >> by a factor of 6 over electricity. I haven't checked lately but I'm
    >> sure it's still a substantical factor - wouldn't surprize me if it were
    >> more now.


    A few months ago, along with my gas bill, my gas company sent a
    newsletter saying that gas is once again the cheapest way to heat. The
    revelavnt figures were $n for gas, and $n+13 for electricity per year.
    (where n was around 800 or so). I was guessing they are refering to the
    cost of running a heat pump, but they didn't say. I only turned on one
    more computer after reading that, but if it is comparing heat actually
    produced I would turn on a lot more. (Why would the gas company not make
    the cost of electricity look as bad as they could?)

    > I would have thought that true everywhere except places where the
    > electric company is named HYDRO and the electricity mostly doesn't
    > come from the inefficient conversion of heat into electricity.


    Yes, this is (or at least was) true in Paraguay, although the electric
    company didn't publicize it because the power lines wouldn't have been
    able to handle it.

    > Even so, the efficiency of good thermal power plants should be
    > closer to 33%, though small portable heat engines (cars) might
    > be closer to 15%. Also, you should include the distribution costs
    > (pipelines) for the natural gas.


    You already pay the distribution costs for gas, as you do for electricity.

    Ivan

  3. Re: Free to a good home

    G. Economou wrote:
    >
    > That machine is still collecting dust up on the 9th floor of Wean hall.
    > it's sort of a pilgrimage site (more so because it requires gaining access
    > to the 9th floor, which is mostly elevator machinery and air handlers and
    > requires some, er, elevator modifications to get there). When i first
    > came across it up there years ago i was surprised and amazed, shouting
    > 'ive read papers about this machine! ive seen this machine in old
    > network maps!'
    >
    > 'twas very cool.


    Hopefully we'll be able to get cmmp and cm* for the Computer History Museum.
    I'm REALLY hoping the software for them is still on tape somewhere at CMU.

    Are there any other machines hiding up there?

    --
    Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com


  4. Re: Free to a good home

    bob.birch@gmail.com wrote:
    > On Feb 14, 9:06 am, bob.bi...@gmail.com wrote:
    >> On Feb 13, 12:00 pm, "G. Economou" wrote:
    >>
    >>> heh, we havent had much snow this winter, until last night. about 3-4
    >>> inches sitting now and it's still coming down. a microvax is keeping the
    >>> living room warm.
    >>> On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 bob.bi...@gmail.com wrote:
    >>>> Close but no cigar...I have a user looking
    >>>> for a RA82 and TU81. The Burg, my hometown.
    >>>> Great place cept' for the snow !

    >> Wow, just read it will be -9 this afternoon
    >> in the Burg ! Whoa... too cold for me even
    >> with a UVax.
    >> Noticed your email address using a Carnegie
    >> Mellon U. server, and had an old CMU question
    >> for you or any old timers at CMU.
    >> Back in the early 70's DEC came out with the
    >> PDP-11/35 (oem version of the 11/40) and it was
    >> one of the first machines with a writable control
    >> store (WCS) board (forgot the bd# ?). Later a couple
    >> guys at CMU started Three Rivers Computer and
    >> built there own WCS board. I never saw one in the
    >> field but heard about it?
    >> Was there really such an board and company?
    >> I think there was, but I was never able to confirm
    >> or see it.
    >> Have you or any of our old CMU DEC'ies ever heard
    >> of it ??

    >
    > Well to answer my own question: after Googling
    > the web I found out I was right.
    > This link and page #13 of it's long PDF file
    > quotes "Brian Rosen" one of the founders of
    > 3RCC saying "....Pg 13 ....CMU had an active
    > engineering lab headed by Bill Broadly that
    > built hardware for CS research.
    >
    > He,Stan Kritz, Jim Teter, Paul Newberry
    > and Brian Rosen Founded 3RCC.
    >
    > ..built several interesting projects, including the WCS
    > for the 11/40.....later the Perq workstations....."
    >
    > I got close to one in the field and was told it was a
    > 3RCC WCS for the 11/35. I saw it in the WCS slot
    > but didn't get close enuff' to confirm it. Later the
    > scuttlebutt was DEC sued 3RCC, won and later
    > came out with the 11-60 that featured WCS.
    >
    > Here's the link:
    > www.rddavis.org/files/perq/theperq-2006.pdf -
    >
    > Maybe some of the old 3RCC guys are still
    > working at CMU ?
    >

    Jim O'Loughlin was the lead for the 11/60 project. It was a bit of a
    unique 11, it was based on harvard architeture, and that was how the
    WCS was approached. There were a couple of other 11 products - WCS, and
    CIS, but I don't know if they really sold.

    11/60 while a neat little bit of engineering, was limited. Addressing
    was 18 bit vice 24, or something, I know I griped when I was stuck using
    6 pair of them with DT switches for a high availability system.

    Just a tidbit, Richie Lary had to come in from the springs to bum the
    microde in both the 60 and the DMS11 = I think he did both in the same weak.

    11/35 was slower than the /40, but if you moved the jumper on the cpu
    backplane... the pc boards were the same, it was how the clock was wired.


    tidbits from memory
    bob

  5. PDP-11/60 was re: Free to a good home

    bob wrote:

    > Jim O'Loughlin was the lead for the 11/60 project. It was a bit of a
    > unique 11, it was based on harvard architeture, and that was how the
    > WCS was approached. There were a couple of other 11 products - WCS, and
    > CIS, but I don't know if they really sold.


    I worked on the 11/60 (writing macrodiagnostics and implementing the
    microcode on the DCS Diagnostic Control Store module), so I can speak
    with personal experience.

    Jim O'Loughlin was the project lead (he was also the lead designer on
    the original PDP-11/20). However, the 11/60 was not a Harvard archi-
    tecture machine (meaning separate address and data spaces, like todays
    Microchip PIC devices). It was a classic 18b physical address PDP-11.

    The WCS writable control store was a slot 1 option that allowed user
    microprogramming of the CPU, accessible via opcode 076xxx decode. It
    was 1K of microprogram space IIRC. The DCS diagnostic control store was
    another slot 1 option that contained 4K of diagnostic ROM-based micro
    code that attempted to provide board and chip level failure analysis.
    There was no CIS commercial instruction set option for the 11/60, that
    was an 11/44 (and 11/74 option).

    > 11/60 while a neat little bit of engineering, was limited. Addressing
    > was 18 bit vice 24, or something, I know I griped when I was stuck using
    > 6 pair of them with DT switches for a high availability system.


    Yup, the 11/60 was billed as a successor to the 11/40, which was a an
    18b user/kernel space machine. This was one of the downfalls of the 60;
    it really should have been an 11/45-70 architecture, with 22b phys addr
    and user/super/kernel modes. The 11/60 was introduced in 1978 and was
    gone from the product line by 1981, when the 11/44 was produced (which
    is what the 11/60 should have been). The other killer for the 11/60 was
    that it was available only in the new 'corporate cab', and could not be
    made to fit in existing 19" rack chassis (BA11K, BA11A boxes).

    Few 11/60s survive today, whereas 11/70s, 11/44s, 11/34s are available.
    Even 11/45-55s and 11/35-40s are more common that 11/60s.

    > Just a tidbit, Richie Lary had to come in from the springs to bum the
    > microde in both the 60 and the DMS11 = I think he did both in the same
    > weak.


    Not true. Richie Lary later did write PDP-11/60 WCS microcode that
    implemented a PDP-8 emulator; it was the fastest PDP-8 emulation ever
    built I believe (not including todays software emulators). The PDP-8
    group used an 11/60 for a while running as a fast PDP-8 platform for
    s/w development compiles and sysgens.

    > 11/35 was slower than the /40, but if you moved the jumper on the cpu
    > backplane... the pc boards were the same, it was how the clock was wired.
    >
    > tidbits from memory
    > bob


    Don North
    DEC Midrange Sys Engr 1975-82


  6. PDP-11/60 was re: Free to a good home

    bob wrote:

    > Jim O'Loughlin was the lead for the 11/60 project. It was a bit of a
    > unique 11, it was based on harvard architeture, and that was how the
    > WCS was approached. There were a couple of other 11 products - WCS, and
    > CIS, but I don't know if they really sold.


    I worked on the 11/60 (writing macrodiagnostics and implementing the
    microcode on the DCS Diagnostic Control Store module), so I can speak
    with personal experience.

    Jim O'Loughlin was the project lead (he was also the lead designer on
    the original PDP-11/20). However, the 11/60 was not a Harvard archi-
    tecture machine (meaning separate address and data spaces, like todays
    Microchip PIC devices). It was a classic 18b physical address PDP-11.

    The WCS writable control store was a slot 1 option that allowed user
    microprogramming of the CPU, accessible via opcode 076xxx decode. It
    was 1K of microprogram space IIRC. The DCS diagnostic control store was
    another slot 1 option that contained 4K of diagnostic ROM-based micro
    code that attempted to provide board and chip level failure analysis.
    There was no CIS commercial instruction set option for the 11/60, that
    was an 11/44 (and 11/74 option).

    > 11/60 while a neat little bit of engineering, was limited. Addressing
    > was 18 bit vice 24, or something, I know I griped when I was stuck using
    > 6 pair of them with DT switches for a high availability system.


    Yup, the 11/60 was billed as a successor to the 11/40, which was a an
    18b user/kernel space machine. This was one of the downfalls of the 60;
    it really should have been an 11/45-70 architecture, with 22b phys addr
    and user/super/kernel modes. The 11/60 was introduced in 1978 and was
    gone from the product line by 1981, when the 11/44 was produced (which
    is what the 11/60 should have been). The other killer for the 11/60 was
    that it was available only in the new 'corporate cab', and could not be
    made to fit in existing 19" rack chassis (BA11K, BA11A boxes).

    Few 11/60s survive today, whereas 11/70s, 11/44s, 11/34s are available.
    Even 11/45-55s and 11/35-40s are more common that 11/60s.

    > Just a tidbit, Richie Lary had to come in from the springs to bum the
    > microde in both the 60 and the DMS11 = I think he did both in the same
    > weak.


    Not true. Richie Lary later did write PDP-11/60 WCS microcode that
    implemented a PDP-8 emulator; it was the fastest PDP-8 emulation ever
    built I believe (not including todays software emulators). The PDP-8
    group used an 11/60 for a while running as a fast PDP-8 platform for
    s/w development compiles and sysgens.

    > 11/35 was slower than the /40, but if you moved the jumper on the cpu
    > backplane... the pc boards were the same, it was how the clock was wired.
    >
    > tidbits from memory
    > bob


    Don North
    DEC Midrange Sys Engr 1975-82


  7. Re: PDP-11/60 was re: Free to a good home

    On Feb 17, 7:14 pm, Don North wrote:
    > bob wrote:
    > > Jim O'Loughlin was the lead for the 11/60 project. It was a bit of a
    > > unique 11, it was based on harvard architeture, and that was how the
    > > WCS was approached. There were a couple of other 11 products - WCS, and
    > > CIS, but I don't know if they really sold.

    >
    > I worked on the 11/60 (writing macrodiagnostics and implementing the
    > microcode on the DCS Diagnostic Control Store module), so I can speak
    > with personal experience.
    >
    > Jim O'Loughlin was the project lead (he was also the lead designer on
    > the original PDP-11/20). However, the 11/60 was not a Harvard archi-
    > tecture machine (meaning separate address and data spaces, like todays
    > Microchip PIC devices). It was a classic 18b physical address PDP-11.
    >
    > The WCS writable control store was a slot 1 option that allowed user
    > microprogramming of the CPU, accessible via opcode 076xxx decode. It
    > was 1K of microprogram space IIRC. The DCS diagnostic control store was
    > another slot 1 option that contained 4K of diagnostic ROM-based micro
    > code that attempted to provide board and chip level failure analysis.
    > There was no CIS commercial instruction set option for the 11/60, that
    > was an 11/44 (and 11/74 option).
    >
    > > 11/60 while a neat little bit of engineering, was limited. Addressing
    > > was 18 bit vice 24, or something, I know I griped when I was stuck using
    > > 6 pair of them with DT switches for a high availability system.

    >
    > Yup, the 11/60 was billed as a successor to the 11/40, which was a an
    > 18b user/kernel space machine. This was one of the downfalls of the 60;
    > it really should have been an 11/45-70 architecture, with 22b phys addr
    > and user/super/kernel modes. The 11/60 was introduced in 1978 and was
    > gone from the product line by 1981, when the 11/44 was produced (which
    > is what the 11/60 should have been). The other killer for the 11/60 was
    > that it was available only in the new 'corporate cab', and could not be
    > made to fit in existing 19" rack chassis (BA11K, BA11A boxes).


    I agree the corporate cab was not needed,
    practically all my customers in the field with an
    11/60, remarked it has a lot of excess space.
    A BA11 box, smaller cab would of worked better.

    >
    > Few 11/60s survive today, whereas 11/70s, 11/44s, 11/34s are available.


    About 3 or 4 years ago, I worked with a big railroad outfit
    in Houston that still used the 11/60. Can't recall the name,
    but they had several of them still in use, but were replacing
    them with PC's. However they were still running them in
    Colorado. They were running with RK06's and the system
    interfaced to racks of relays, switches to control the
    tracks IIRC.

    > Even 11/45-55s and 11/35-40s are more common that 11/60s.
    >
    > > Just a tidbit, Richie Lary had to come in from the springs to bum the
    > > microde in both the 60 and the DMS11 = I think he did both in the same
    > > weak.

    >
    > Not true. Richie Lary later did write PDP-11/60 WCS microcode that
    > implemented a PDP-8 emulator; it was the fastest PDP-8 emulation ever
    > built I believe (not including todays software emulators). The PDP-8
    > group used an 11/60 for a while running as a fast PDP-8 platform for
    > s/w development compiles and sysgens.


    I always wondered what 3RCC and their WCS could emulate.
    The Scuttlebutt was Intel 4004 or 8008, relatively new at the
    time.

    >
    > > 11/35 was slower than the /40, but if you moved the jumper on the cpu
    > > backplane... the pc boards were the same, it was how the clock was wired.


    I heard that, but never found out to find out
    where the jumer was located and never bothered
    to dig into it....


    >
    > > tidbits from memory
    > > bob

    >
    > Don North
    > DEC Midrange Sys Engr 1975-82




  8. Re: Free to a good home

    Al _Kossow writes:

    > G. Economou wrote:


    >> That machine is still collecting dust up on the 9th floor of Wean
    >> hall. it's sort of a pilgrimage site (more so because it requires
    >> gaining access to the 9th floor, which is mostly elevator machinery
    >> and air handlers and requires some, er, elevator modifications to
    >> get there). When i first came across it up there years ago i was
    >> surprised and amazed, shouting 'ive read papers about this machine!
    >> ive seen this machine in old network maps!' 'twas very cool.


    > Hopefully we'll be able to get cmmp and cm* for the Computer History
    > Museum. I'm REALLY hoping the software for them is still on tape
    > somewhere at CMU.


    On two acasion spread over several years, I was told the Hydra and *Os
    where in the tape valut, but so was a pile of medical trial data so in
    order to look you had to get `the right' authorities etc...

    > Are there any other machines hiding up there?


  9. Re: Free to a good home

    In article <0ENBh.267$Cr1.262@trnddc08>, bob writes:

    > Jim O'Loughlin was the lead for the 11/60 project. It was a bit of a
    > unique 11, it was based on harvard architeture, and that was how the
    > WCS was approached. There were a couple of other 11 products - WCS, and
    > CIS, but I don't know if they really sold.


    A PDP-11 in a harvard architecure? That's interesting. I'd never
    seen anything but microcontrollers done using harvard architecures.
    Is it possible to do a MARK instruction that way?


  10. Re: Free to a good home


    Dunno about the likelihood of ever getting those machines out of Wean. Someone
    apparently cares enough to be storing them up there, i dont think at least
    the first intention was to ever get rid of them.. but, time passes, and things
    do change. I might imagine finding someone who might know more about them
    (i could think of a few names to start with).. they're way before my time
    (my first Real Computers were a sun 3/60 and a DECstation 3100).

    Other machines up there collecting dust? some big piece of univac gear which
    looks like it was once a tap drive, which looked like it was half-scavenged
    for parts.. date codes on some of the components put it in the '60s and
    the smooth round corners of the cabinet agreed.

    the DECtape drive on the front of c.mmp still has a tape loaded in it.

    On Fri, 16 Feb 2007, Al _Kossow wrote:
    > Hopefully we'll be able to get cmmp and cm* for the Computer History Museum.
    > I'm REALLY hoping the software for them is still on tape somewhere at CMU.
    >
    > Are there any other machines hiding up there?


  11. Re: PDP-11/60 was re: Free to a good home

    In article , Don North writes:
    > Don North
    > DEC Midrange Sys Engr 1975-82


    Say, you wouldn't be the same Don North I went to High School with in
    Northbrook IL? If so, drop me an email!

    --
    Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L >>> To reply, there's no internet on Mars (yet)! <<<
    Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/Document/MayJun00.pdf
    www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org

    S&T is becoming this decades Steve Weaver!

  12. Re: PDP-11/60 was re: Free to a good home

    In article <45D7C48E.90804@idontwantnospam.com>,
    nobody@idontwantnospam.com says...
    > bob wrote:
    >
    > > Jim O'Loughlin was the lead for the 11/60 project. It was a bit of a
    > > unique 11, it was based on harvard architeture, and that was how the
    > > WCS was approached. There were a couple of other 11 products - WCS, and
    > > CIS, but I don't know if they really sold.

    >
    > I worked on the 11/60 (writing macrodiagnostics and implementing the
    > microcode on the DCS Diagnostic Control Store module), so I can speak
    > with personal experience.
    >
    > Jim O'Loughlin was the project lead (he was also the lead designer on
    > the original PDP-11/20). However, the 11/60 was not a Harvard archi-
    > tecture machine (meaning separate address and data spaces, like todays
    > Microchip PIC devices). It was a classic 18b physical address PDP-11.
    >
    > The WCS writable control store was a slot 1 option that allowed user
    > microprogramming of the CPU, accessible via opcode 076xxx decode. It
    > was 1K of microprogram space IIRC. The DCS diagnostic control store was
    > another slot 1 option that contained 4K of diagnostic ROM-based micro
    > code that attempted to provide board and chip level failure analysis.
    > There was no CIS commercial instruction set option for the 11/60, that
    > was an 11/44 (and 11/74 option).
    >
    > > 11/60 while a neat little bit of engineering, was limited. Addressing
    > > was 18 bit vice 24, or something, I know I griped when I was stuck using
    > > 6 pair of them with DT switches for a high availability system.

    >
    > Yup, the 11/60 was billed as a successor to the 11/40, which was a an
    > 18b user/kernel space machine. This was one of the downfalls of the 60;
    > it really should have been an 11/45-70 architecture, with 22b phys addr
    > and user/super/kernel modes. The 11/60 was introduced in 1978 and was
    > gone from the product line by 1981, when the 11/44 was produced (which
    > is what the 11/60 should have been). The other killer for the 11/60 was
    > that it was available only in the new 'corporate cab', and could not be
    > made to fit in existing 19" rack chassis (BA11K, BA11A boxes).
    >
    > Few 11/60s survive today, whereas 11/70s, 11/44s, 11/34s are available.
    > Even 11/45-55s and 11/35-40s are more common that 11/60s.
    >
    > > Just a tidbit, Richie Lary had to come in from the springs to bum the
    > > microde in both the 60 and the DMS11 = I think he did both in the same
    > > weak.

    >
    > Not true. Richie Lary later did write PDP-11/60 WCS microcode that
    > implemented a PDP-8 emulator; it was the fastest PDP-8 emulation ever
    > built I believe (not including todays software emulators). The PDP-8
    > group used an 11/60 for a while running as a fast PDP-8 platform for
    > s/w development compiles and sysgens.
    >
    > > 11/35 was slower than the /40, but if you moved the jumper on the cpu
    > > backplane... the pc boards were the same, it was how the clock was wired.



    (For some reason, I didn't see the original post on this, just the
    followups.)

    I don't think the above is true. We had an 11/35 and an 11/40 and
    AFAIR, they were identical and performance was identical. (The 11/35
    was in a much newer box, and there differences in the power supplies
    and power distribution, but the boards were identical. I think it
    was unusual for an 11/35 because it was mounted in a large slide-out
    frame just like the 11/40 and all the 11/45's and 11/70's I've seen,
    instead of the more typical 10.5" BA11-K(?) box. The backplanes inside
    were mounted vertically from front to back like the 11/40, not
    horizontally and from side to side like in a BA11-K expansion box.
    I think there was room for 9 system units in it, vs. 5 in a BA11-K.
    The main difference from the 11/40 was the front panel said "11/35"
    on it.


    > >
    > > tidbits from memory
    > > bob

    >
    > Don North
    > DEC Midrange Sys Engr 1975-82
    >
    >


    --
    John

  13. Re: Free to a good home

    G. Economou wrote:
    > Other machines up there collecting dust? some big piece of univac gear
    > which
    > looks like it was once a tap drive, which looked like it was
    > half-scavenged for parts.. date codes on some of the components put it
    > in the '60s and
    > the smooth round corners of the cabinet agreed.


    CMU had a Univac 1108 that was deinstalled the semester before I arrived
    as a freshman in the fall of 1979. It was sitting in the Computation Center
    printout filing area when I arrived, and disappeared shortly thereafter.
    I wonder if the drive came from it?

    --Bill

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