linux decnet kernel module and decnet network - DEC

This is a discussion on linux decnet kernel module and decnet network - DEC ; Hi, since a few days, I bring back to service a microPDP 11/53. I have a lot of challenges ahead due to the fact that I am mainly a linux user and I know nothing of the RSX11 system that ...

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  1. linux decnet kernel module and decnet network

    Hi,

    since a few days, I bring back to service a microPDP 11/53.

    I have a lot of challenges ahead due to the fact that I am mainly a
    linux user and I know nothing of the RSX11 system that is installed in
    the PDP.

    I would like to (try to) connect the PDP to my lan then to the rest of
    the world. I have no ethernet adapter for the moment but I know someone
    that could provide me a DEQNA card.

    I was told that there is no tcp/ip for the pdp, and that it can just
    talk decnet protocol that only either another pdp or vax or alpha could
    understand. As I have also an AS2100 with OpenVMS I first though that I
    could use the AS as a tcp/decnet gateway. Do you think it is a feasible
    thing*?

    Also, I just noticed that a linux kernel module supports decnet. But i
    have not much information about it except that there is also a netfilter
    support of decnet. As my lan gateway is a linux box, maybe I could add
    direct support of decnet to it ?

    At last I also wonder if I could mix tcp/ip and decnet in the same lan
    with my current hardware (10/100 switch and wires).

    Thanks for any info.
    --
    Sébastien Kirche

  2. Re: linux decnet kernel module and decnet network

    Sébastien Kirche writes:

    > At last I also wonder if I could mix tcp/ip and decnet in the same
    > lan with my current hardware (10/100 switch and wires).


    Data point: about 15 years ago, my university was running TCP/IP and
    DECnet simultaneously across the same thinnet.

    (And let us know what level of success you have ... my 11/73 is
    itching to connect to the LAN.)

    mlp

  3. Re: linux decnet kernel module and decnet network

    At 23:34 on jan 15 2007, Mark L. Pappin said :

    > Data point: about 15 years ago, my university was running TCP/IP and
    > DECnet simultaneously across the same thinnet.


    Good.

    > (And let us know what level of success you have ... my 11/73 is
    > itching to connect to the LAN.)


    No problem. The challenge would be to post something to Usenet from the
    11/53. Cross your fingers...

    --
    Sébastien Kirche

  4. Re: linux decnet kernel module and decnet network

    At 23:34 on jan 15 2007, Mark L. Pappin said :

    > Data point: about 15 years ago, my university was running TCP/IP and
    > DECnet simultaneously across the same thinnet.


    Good.

    > (And let us know what level of success you have ... my 11/73 is
    > itching to connect to the LAN.)


    No problem. The challenge would be to post something to Usenet from the
    11/53. Cross your fingers...

    BTW : (little self promoting) I'm already proud to publish some pics of
    my brand new dinosaur (and other ones too) at
    http://sebastien.kirche.free.fr/ordinos/dec/pdp11/

    I have not translated the descriptions in english yet, though.
    --
    Sébastien Kirche

  5. Re: linux decnet kernel module and decnet network

    Mark L Pappin wrote:
    >
    > Sébastien Kirche writes:
    >
    > > At last I also wonder if I could mix tcp/ip and decnet in the same
    > > lan with my current hardware (10/100 switch and wires).

    >
    > Data point: about 15 years ago, my university was running TCP/IP and
    > DECnet simultaneously across the same thinnet.


    Ethernet is Ethernet. The only difference is protocol-specific routing. Even
    today, DECnet, IP, LAT, MOP, etc. on the same LAN segment are found from time to
    time.

    Some commercial-grade routers support IP, DECnet and other more obscure
    protocols. For non-routable protocols like LAT and MOP, transparent bridging (by
    Ethernet packet type) between LAN segments works just fine so long as latency
    does not become an issue.

    --
    David J Dachtera
    dba DJE Systems
    http://www.djesys.com/

    Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page
    http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/

    Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page:
    http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/

    Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page:
    http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/

    Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page:
    http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/

  6. Re: linux decnet kernel module and decnet network

    Sébastien Kirche wrote:
    > Hi,
    >
    > since a few days, I bring back to service a microPDP 11/53.
    >
    > I have a lot of challenges ahead due to the fact that I am mainly a
    > linux user and I know nothing of the RSX11 system that is installed in
    > the PDP.
    >


    You could think of RSX-11 as a kind of smaller VMS, which is not
    exactly true, but a first hint.

    There are a lot of RSX manuals available on the Internet (mostly at
    www.bitsavers.com), but unfortunately not for the version you've got
    (RSX-11M-PLUS V4.0, taken from one of your pictures), only for the
    older Version 3. Still better than nothing at all.

    > I would like to (try to) connect the PDP to my lan then to the rest of
    > the world. I have no ethernet adapter for the moment but I know someone
    > that could provide me a DEQNA card.
    >


    Maybe I could.
    Have you got the DECnet/RSX software package with your PDP-11???
    DECnet network services are not included in the base operating system
    software by default.
    DECnet/RSX is hard to find. And there are probably legal issues with
    using it (even as a hobbyist) - the same with RSX-11 when you haven't
    got a valid license.

    > I was told that there is no tcp/ip for the pdp, and that it can just
    > talk decnet protocol that only either another pdp or vax or alpha could
    > understand. As I have also an AS2100 with OpenVMS I first though that I
    > could use the AS as a tcp/decnet gateway. Do you think it is a feasible
    > thing ?
    >


    Yes, should work. I don't know exactly if it's completely transparent,
    but you could at least transfer files and connect interactively via SET
    HOST.

    > Also, I just noticed that a linux kernel module supports decnet. But i
    > have not much information about it except that there is also a netfilter
    > support of decnet. As my lan gateway is a linux box, maybe I could add
    > direct support of decnet to it ?
    >


    Although I have some experience with Linux I didn't try DECnet under
    Linux yet. There are certainly others who already have some hands-on
    experience yet.

    > At last I also wonder if I could mix tcp/ip and decnet in the same lan
    > with my current hardware (10/100 switch and wires).
    >


    No problem at all. All you need is a thinwire or twisted-pair
    transceiver to hook up your DEQNA or DELQA onto your network and a
    possibility to connect your modern network to thinwire if you use that
    on the PDP-11 side.

    There's another interesting option (free from any license troubles) -
    You could use ULTRIX-11 (DECs UNIX for the PDP-11) with your PDP-11/53
    when you've got enough memory in it (at least 192kB, the more, the
    better). Thats what I successfully do with my PDP-11/83 (besides other
    DEC OSes) :-))

    Regards

    Ulli


  7. Re: linux decnet kernel module and decnet network

    At 13:03 on jan 16 2007, vaxorcist said :

    > You could think of RSX-11 as a kind of smaller VMS, which is not
    > exactly true, but a first hint.


    I guess it won't help me much as I had my very first VMS lesson a few
    days ago. When I got the AS2100, the system HD with Tru64 was dead and a
    friend offered to replace it with a new one and put OpenVMS on it.
    I know Linux quite well and I can play with some others like Tru64, IRIX
    or NeXTSTEP but VMS is a new world to me :P


    > Have you got the DECnet/RSX software package with your PDP-11???
    > DECnet network services are not included in the base operating system
    > software by default.
    > DECnet/RSX is hard to find. And there are probably legal issues with
    > using it (even as a hobbyist) - the same with RSX-11 when you haven't
    > got a valid license.


    I don't know for the package, I did not played much with RSX. Someone
    (from fr.comp.os.vms) told me about trying some PIP commands but all
    remaining information including the logins are lost where the PDP
    served.

    > No problem at all. All you need is a thinwire or twisted-pair
    > transceiver to hook up your DEQNA or DELQA onto your network and a
    > possibility to connect your modern network to thinwire if you use that
    > on the PDP-11 side.


    The transceiver should not be a problem, so I am continuing in that way.

    > There's another interesting option (free from any license troubles) -
    > You could use ULTRIX-11 (DECs UNIX for the PDP-11) with your PDP-11/53
    > when you've got enough memory in it (at least 192kB, the more, the
    > better). Thats what I successfully do with my PDP-11/83 (besides other
    > DEC OSes) :-))


    Sound very interesting, as I am far ore comfortable with an Unix than
    with VMS (that I try to learn a little, though).
    If there is no decnet package (and it is probable since there is no
    ethernet card) I have no mean to get it, and I am aware of the lack of
    hobbyist program for RSX.

    I first look to get an ISA MFM controller to put in an PC here to make a
    backup of the disk, then I'll try to get Ultrix and to install it.
    Maybe I'll should get a floppy drive to replace the TK50 for the
    installation of Ultrix.

    Thanks for support
    --
    Sébastien Kirche

  8. Re: linux decnet kernel module and decnet network

    Sébastien Kirche wrote:

    > I first look to get an ISA MFM controller to put in an PC here to make a
    > backup of the disk, then I'll try to get Ultrix and to install it.
    > Maybe I'll should get a floppy drive to replace the TK50 for the
    > installation of Ultrix.
    >
    > Thanks for support


    Another couple of notes: Have Ultrix 11 running on an 11/53 and it works
    quite well. ftp and telnet work as well, using a deqna or delqua for the
    network interface. The networking does seem to hang occasionally, but it
    is functional.

    The tk50 boot tape can be created on an alpha box running tru64. You
    need something like an old vs2000 tk50z, which is a scsi version of tk50
    in a fairly large desktop box, but recognised under tru64. dd then
    builds the install tape, which then boots on the 11/53 to install ultix...

    Chris

  9. Re: linux decnet kernel module and decnet network

    Sebastien,

    not much help I could give you here. I searched through what I have left on
    DEC documentation without luck. As a former RSX DEC support specialist in
    Germany until 1981, I'm affraid my memory doesn't serve me well either.

    Mixing DECnet and TCP on the same LAn is no problem (we did that at DEC and
    at the DECUS symposiums for years).

    If you can find a DECnet-11M distribution, the end-node license would be
    good enough for your needs (no need for a routing or non-routing version).

    You said somewhere that the DCL commands didn't work, which made me think
    you had a older RSX-11M V3 system. If you take the V3 documentation
    mentioned above, it will still help a lot (the old standard utilities like
    PIP, EDT, BRU should work).

    I was convinced there would be some TCP implemention for RSX in the DECus
    library, but couldn't find any reference to something like this.

    PS: I didn't know DEC France went as far as "frenchising" DEC cabinets.
    PS2: There's at least one french person here. Me!

    René Guillaume



  10. Re: linux decnet kernel module and decnet network

    At 09:47 on jan 17 2007, RGuillaume said :

    > You said somewhere that the DCL commands didn't work, which made me
    > think you had a older RSX-11M V3 system. If you take the V3
    > documentation mentioned above, it will still help a lot (the old
    > standard utilities like PIP, EDT, BRU should work).


    I suppose that you have seen my posts on fr.comp.os.vms where I first
    asked for assistance. (I also tried alt.sys.pdp11 but the group is not
    available on my server and it not convenient to use google groups).

    I'll give it a try. It should be fun like it was to learn ED to fix the
    boot sequence of the PWS500 some time ago...

    > I was convinced there would be some TCP implemention for RSX in the
    > DECus library, but couldn't find any reference to something like this.
    >
    > PS: I didn't know DEC France went as far as "frenchising" DEC
    > PS: cabinets.


    I wondered if it could be official translation or some customization by
    the users as there is several typos.

    > PS2: There's at least one french person here. Me!


    Merci

    --
    Sébastien Kirche

  11. Re: linux decnet kernel module and decnet network

    In article <873b6bet21.fsf@petisuix.seki.fr>,
    Sébastien Kirche writes:
    > At 23:34 on jan 15 2007, Mark L. Pappin said :
    >
    >> Data point: about 15 years ago, my university was running TCP/IP and
    >> DECnet simultaneously across the same thinnet.

    >
    > Good.
    >
    >> (And let us know what level of success you have ... my 11/73 is
    >> itching to connect to the LAN.)

    >
    > No problem. The challenge would be to post something to Usenet from the
    > 11/53. Cross your fingers...
    >


    Sorry, no challenge in that. It was done for quite some time before
    the INTERNET even existed. Afterall, USENET started running UUCP on
    the telephone system. :-)

    bill

    --
    Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
    bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
    University of Scranton |
    Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include

  12. Re: linux decnet kernel module and decnet network

    At 21:08 on fév 2 2007, Bill Gunshannon said :

    > > No problem. The challenge would be to post something to Usenet from
    > > the 11/53. Cross your fingers...
    > >

    >
    > Sorry, no challenge in that. It was done for quite some time before
    > the INTERNET even existed. Afterall, USENET started running UUCP on
    > the telephone system. :-)


    Sure, it is not a challenge by itself, but it is for me who switched on
    a PDP for the first time on dec. 23 2006, who never used neither MFM
    HDDs nor QBus devices and at last who never used a RSX-11 system...

    My system is visible here (no description yet) :
    http://sebastien.kirche.free.fr/ordinos/dec/pdp11/

    --
    Sébastien Kirche

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