Mentec US is gone! - DEC

This is a discussion on Mentec US is gone! - DEC ; In article , bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: >In article , > bob.birch@gmail.com writes: >> Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>> In article , >>> kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) writes: >>> > wrote: >>> >>> Who owns the rights to those dozen words? >>> ...

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Thread: Mentec US is gone!

  1. Re: pussification of newsgroups

    In article <4v2tlsF1am2iqU1@mid.individual.net>,
    bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
    >In article <1166817985.184860.16850@73g2000cwn.googlegroups.co m>,
    > bob.birch@gmail.com writes:
    >> Bill Gunshannon wrote:
    >>> In article ,
    >>> kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) writes:
    >>> > wrote:
    >>> >>> Who owns the rights to those dozen words?
    >>> >>
    >>> >>Which ones of those dozen words? Are you talking about the
    >>> >>EXE file that resides on your disk? ARe you talking about the
    >>> >>source that generates the EXE after LINKing and SAVEing?
    >>> >
    >>> > I'm talking about the 12 word bootstrap that you have to toggle into
    >>> > the panel to load from media. Are those 12 words copyrighted by DEC,
    >>> > and if so, how are they licensed? That's software too. A very short
    >>> > piece, but it's still software.
    >>>
    >>> Most of the ones I have are a bit more than 12 words. I am sure that
    >>> the ones contained in things like the RT-11 Pocket Guide are technically
    >>> copyrighted as a part of the book but being as there is really no other
    >>> way to boot from one of these devices I doubt they can stop anyone from
    >>> using them. Nor, I imagine would anyone want to. Afterall, they are
    >>> published works.

    >>
    >> A bootstrap as copyright property ? You gotta be kidding !

    >
    >The question was, "Is it copyrighted?". The answer is yes. Don't blame
    >me, I am not the one who signed us up to the Berne convention (I mistakenly
    >said Basel in an earlier post). Everything created is now automatically
    >copyrighted. But you ignored the point I made about it being published
    >which means you are free to use it. Of course, you could always write
    >your own, but it would end being nearly if not exactly the same. :-)


    It wouldn't be the same if a command decoder was included or something
    that needed to learn about full file specs and/or device codes.
    >
    >>
    >> I'm sure China and India IT types must be laughing their butts off
    >> at these postings, as they copy OS's and IP by the thousands
    >> everyday.

    >
    >Yeah, well they copy DVD's and music CD's and anything else they can
    >steal so I doubt they even care.


    But they can't fix it and they can't create new. That is the
    trade off of taking others' work without the knowledge of how
    to do the work to make it.

    >
    >> Or how much revenue did DEC receive, during the cold war, as
    >> Russia or Eastern Europe countries cloned DEC products by the
    >> Thousands ?

    >
    >Actually, they bought more than they cloned.


    They tried.

    > Did you ever see the
    >Russian clone of the Apple II. It took up the whole top of a desk
    >just for the CPU box. And the Z80 was cloned by using industrial
    >espionage to get copies of the real chip masks from Zilog. They
    >were never bright enough or ambitious enough to truly "clone" anything.


    They were extremely bright. JMF looked at some of the stuff they
    made out of spit and vinegar and was in awe of what they produced
    with almost no access to resources and never in a timely manner.

    >
    >>
    >> Trying to "pussify" young DEC collectors for licensing fees on old
    >> DEC products. Give me a break.

    >
    >Hey, the law is the law. And morals don't change because someone sees
    >the product as old.
    >
    >>
    >> As best you can, young collectors should know there is an alternative,
    >> Successful, commonly used risky method, and that is to follow the
    >> Chinese, India, Russian and Eastern Europe models. It's "do what
    >> you need
    >> to do", accumulate profits, then later, if needed, hire the ambulance
    >> chasers
    >> and slog thru the boring, illogical, never ending IP arguments .
    >>
    >> The "pussification of the silicon valley" as detailed in the old
    >> "Upside"
    >> article, has now spread to newsgroups and everywhere in the IT world.
    >> If it's not politically correct, than it's illegal or a violation
    >> of someone's
    >> IP rights. Give me a break.
    >>
    >> Take me back to the 1960/70's......

    >
    >The only difference int hese matters between then and now is then people
    >had the moral gumption to not steal other people's property.


    It was impossible to steal software. I could hold a card deck
    in my hand but it was only worth using as bookmarkers if I didn't
    have access to a cardhopper.

    /BAH

  2. Re: pussification of newsgroups

    In article <1oWdnQL2uuCwSBHYnZ2dnUVZ_veinZ2d@comcast.com>,
    glen herrmannsfeldt wrote:
    >Bill Gunshannon wrote:
    >
    >(snip)
    >
    >> Actually, they bought more than they cloned. Did you ever see the
    >> Russian clone of the Apple II. It took up the whole top of a desk
    >> just for the CPU box. And the Z80 was cloned by using industrial
    >> espionage to get copies of the real chip masks from Zilog. They
    >> were never bright enough or ambitious enough to truly "clone" anything.

    >
    >There was a story of a Russian 8080 with masks made from pictures
    >of real 8080 chips. That is, directly from images with a little
    >enlargement.


    Now think of the people who did that work. There was no economy
    that would allow some company to create what they needed. I don't
    consider the people who managed to create something like this
    stupid nor lazy. They certainly had more sticktoitiveness than
    I would have.

    /BAH

  3. Re: Mentec US is gone!

    In article <4v2b6dF1aducbU1@mid.individual.net>,
    bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
    >In article ,
    > jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:
    >>
    >> What I don't understand is why these people have to run the
    >> hardware as if it were the old system. If they got the gear
    >> out of a dumpster, there shouldn't any emotional attachment
    >> to the installed software. So all they have to do is zero
    >> the disk and install something they can get permission to run.
    >>
    >> I don't understand this mentality.

    >
    >I think it is because we both come from a bery different era in the
    >computing industry. :-)


    oh...[blushing emoticon here]

    So the work that has to be done is training the youngsters how
    to be a real systems programmer and not the foo-foos that are
    showing up in today's biz.

    HMM....I don't think I would know how to get that project started.

    /BAH

  4. Re: Mentec US is gone!

    In article ,
    Mike Ross wrote:
    >On Fri, 22 Dec 06 14:32:54 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    >>What I don't understand is why these people have to run the
    >>hardware as if it were the old system. If they got the gear
    >>out of a dumpster, there shouldn't any emotional attachment
    >>to the installed software. So all they have to do is zero
    >>the disk and install something they can get permission to run.
    >>
    >>I don't understand this mentality.

    >
    >It's a matter of historical accuracy; wherever possible you keep the
    >system as close to the working configuration as possible. 'this was
    >system x, running jobs y and z at company a from 1977-1998'. You don't
    >mess with the installed OS or anything else. If you can get every
    >record right back to the original invoices and make a paper trail so
    >much the better.


    Oh, dear. I've run into people like you before. You are wrong.
    First of all if you insist on running pristine, off the shelf,
    specific software, you cannot use the code that is currently on
    your system. It has been patched, restored, edited, and fixedup.
    That is how the world worked back then.

    Second of all, which date and time are you going to enter when
    you boot up this pristine system? It will have to be pre-Y2K,
    plus any date-time specific bugs, answers.

    This is software. You cannot run pristine.


    >
    >When a museum digs an ancient pot out of the ground, do they take
    >fresh paint and paint it up nicely so it looks like new? Exactly the
    >same situation and motivation.


    But they also don't use that pot to cook all their meals in either.

    >
    >This is where I have an issue with people like Bill and Johnny who
    >talk about theft and stealing and make a song and dance about taking
    >the extreme moral high ground; to me it's a very debateable question
    >as to whether doing posterity a favour by preserving computing's past
    >in as much detail as possible is not a more *moral* act than
    >scrupulously obeying the somewhat artificial dictates of IP law as
    >presently understood in our society. In terms of benefit to society
    >and posterity I mean.


    But you are not interested in posterity. To keep the -11 business
    alive and evolving, Mentec has to be profitable. If it is not,
    it will go out of business, and EVERYTHING they have will be lost.
    That is not posterity.

    I know what I'm talking about. I've seen knowledge go away. I
    know what knowledge has disappeared. I have been working for
    the last 12 years to keep more knowledge from disappearing.

    /BAH

  5. Re: Mentec US is gone!

    In article ,
    "Kelvin Smith" wrote:
    >
    >"Giorgio Ungarelli" wrote in message
    >news:458af6b1_2@news.bluewin.ch...
    >> "Bob Koehler" wrote in message
    >> newsMZqv9a1utoh@eisner.encompasserve.org...
    >>> In article <45892e4d$1_4@news.bluewin.ch>, "Giorgio Ungarelli" >>> at ungarelli dot net> writes:
    >>>
    >>>> Americans (especially the ones that have never lived anywhere except in
    >>>> the
    >>>> USA) seem to think that the laws in the USA apply to all countries in
    >>>> the
    >>>> world. It is truly sad.
    >>>
    >>> Hm. Must be some place we haven't invaded recently. Fortunatly
    >>> the administration will probably change before we can get around to
    >>> all of them.
    >>>

    >>
    >> Put one of the following bumper stickers (they are all actually in
    >> available) on your car(s) then:
    >>
    >> 2008: End of an Error
    >> If You Can Read This, You're Not Our President
    >> That's OK. I Wasn't Using My Civil Liberties Anyway
    >> Bush Never Exhaled
    >> Cheney/Satan '08
    >> Let's Fix Democracy in This Country First
    >> You want a nation ruled by religion? Move to Iran.
    >> George W. Bush: Like a rock (only dumber)
    >> George Bush: Creating the Terrorists Our Kids Will Have to Fight
    >> America: One Nation, Under Surveillance
    >> They Call Him "W" So He Can Spell It
    >> Jail to the Chief
    >> Bad President! No Banana.
    >> We Need a President Who's Fluent In At Least One Language
    >> We're Making Enemies Faster Than We Can Kill Them
    >> Where Are We Going? And Why Are We In This Handbasket?
    >> When Bush Took Office, Gas Was $1.46
    >> The Republican Party: Our Bridge to the 11th Century
    >> At Least Nixon Resigned
    >>
    >>

    >
    >IMHO, people who live in European houses shouldn't throw stones... The
    >problems may be different; the severity is at least as bad.
    >

    Especially when they are in missle range of unfriendly regimes.

    /BAH

  6. Re: Mentec US is gone!

    In article <1u3jh.343$%M1.25@trnddc08>, John Santos wrote:
    >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
    >> In article , John Santos wrote:



    >> This acknowledgement requires warm human bodies who are paid to
    >> do the work. You never, ever use volunteer work for something
    >> can bite you on your legal ass.
    >>

    >
    >What work? The acknowlegement is generated by the deliver or
    >procmail script.


    Who wrote that? Who checks to see it is still working? Who fixes
    it if the procedure breaks? Who pays for the computer hard/software
    that runs the script?

    >No human being ever needs to look at (except
    >retroactively, if Mentec decides to investigate a possible
    >license violation.)
    >
    >There is no human labor, volunteer or otherwise.


    Why are emulating an idiot?


    >>>and nothing to bill (for a free hobbyist
    >>>license). (For a charged hobbyist license, they would almost
    >>>certainly require pre-payment via credit card, PayPal, etc.,
    >>>so the "billing" part would already be done.) The "sales
    >>>person" (most like an email delivery agent such as procmail
    >>>or deliver) would just file the license agreement in a (email)
    >>>folder and send an acknowledgment.
    >>>
    >>>The part number on the license agreement is most likely either
    >>>the part number of the piece of paper, or the part number of
    >>>the kit that will be shipped in response to DEC/Compaq/HP, or
    >>>the part number used by billing so the customer would get
    >>>charged for the license, not so a physical object could get
    >>>sent to the customer.

    >>
    >>
    >> I also think you people are confusing maintenance agreements
    >> with licensing.
    >>
    >>

    >
    >Wild stab in the dark.


    My dear. I have had more decades of experience in this stuff
    than you ever will have. It was an educated guess. If you
    wish for a comparison on my knowledge about this stuff and your
    knowledge about this stuff, I'm at the PhD level and you are still
    in diapers.

    Now do you have some idea about the difference between yours
    and my knowledge?

    /BAH

  7. Re: Mentec US is gone!

    In article ,
    kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
    >In article ,
    > wrote:
    >>>>>There are probably fifty or so other different OS licenses in there.
    >>>>
    >>>>They can't be licenses for the OS. They must be application
    >>>>licenses or compiler licenses such as FORTRAN or DECnet.
    >>>
    >>>No, they are mostly Ultrix licenses.

    >>
    >>I do not understand this. I am not sure you are looking at
    >>licenses. Just picking an off-the-wall guess of what you are
    >>really looking at is update cover letters. Those have nothing
    >>to do with licensing.

    >
    >I am not looking at update cover letters.


    OK.
    >
    >>> I have a couple hundred Fortran,
    >>>DVNETEND, etc. licenses in boxes around here also.

    >>
    >>No, you are look at update cover letters. There is no
    >>way that one ulitrix ship could generate hundreds of
    >>license agreements. That would need at least 100 people
    >>just dealing with that customer's licensing.

    >
    >No, I am looking at licenses. And this is not from one Ultrix shipment,
    >this is from hundreds of systems over the years, all stacked together in
    >a box. I have, well, I have a lot of junk here.


    Well, the reason I'm doubting this is because you have hundreds.
    Ultrix didn't seem to be that busy and were hanging on by the
    skin of their bits (the product was barely selling enough hardware).
    So hundreds doesn't compute ;-).

    /BAH

  8. Re: Mentec US is gone!

    In article ,
    glen herrmannsfeldt writes:
    > Mike Ross wrote:
    >
    > (snip)
    >
    >> This is where I have an issue with people like Bill and Johnny who
    >> talk about theft and stealing and make a song and dance about taking
    >> the extreme moral high ground; to me it's a very debateable question
    >> as to whether doing posterity a favour by preserving computing's past
    >> in as much detail as possible is not a more *moral* act than
    >> scrupulously obeying the somewhat artificial dictates of IP law as
    >> presently understood in our society. In terms of benefit to society
    >> and posterity I mean.

    >
    > Also, there is no reason that fair use wouldn't apply to software,
    > in addition to other copyright materials. I don't know that it
    > has been tested very well, though.


    Well, "fair use" when it comes to things like copyrighted books means
    a paragraph or two from the entire book. so I guess in this case it
    would bean you are free to pull out 12 words from anywhere in the soft-
    ware package in question and use it wiothout paying for a license. Hey,
    I'll bet that covers the boot code! :-)

    bill

    --
    Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
    bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
    University of Scranton |
    Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include

  9. Re: Mentec US is gone!

    pechter@pechter.dyndns.org (William Pechter) writes:

    ....

    > I'd love to run RSTS and RT11 and RSX11 and IAS on the real pdp11 or
    > even an emulated 11... for non-commercial purposes legally. But I
    > can't spend a couple of thousand dollars for the rights to the four
    > OS's.


    > So... I dumped all my PDP stuff and the rest will be dumpstered
    > soon.


    Well, IAS never went to Mentec, it still belongs to hp, as does
    RSX-11A B, C, D, F, DOS-11 and TRAX. Not sure about POS.

    Just those, cover a very significant part of computing history and it
    is a shame it is not able to be seen and studied.

    --
    Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd.,
    +61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda.
    West Australia 6076
    comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot
    Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.
    EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.

  10. Re: Mentec US is gone!

    jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:

    > But you couldn't do that (order an OS without the media kit). There
    > is no infrastructure that allowed this.


    But you could with 11s at least, I saw it happen. Had more media kits
    than you could throw a cat at, had an 11 that had been removed from a
    now defunct lab and wanted to drop RSX on it. Oh dear, it used to run
    RT. So a new licence only was ordered and delivered, no problem any
    more.

    --
    Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd.,
    +61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda.
    West Australia 6076
    comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot
    Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.
    EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.

  11. Re: Booting a new OS on DEC equipment [was Re: Mentec US is gone!]

    kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) writes:

    > wrote:
    >>> Who owns the rights to those dozen words?


    >>Which ones of those dozen words? Are you talking about the
    >>EXE file that resides on your disk? ARe you talking about the
    >>source that generates the EXE after LINKing and SAVEing?


    > I'm talking about the 12 word bootstrap that you have to toggle into
    > the panel to load from media. Are those 12 words copyrighted by
    > DEC, and if so, how are they licensed? That's software too. A very
    > short piece, but it's still software.


    They are just 12 numbers, and numbers can't be copyrighted. You could
    copyright the PERFORMANCE of setting each switch, but you would have to
    CR every possible sequence. Expensive.

    --
    Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd.,
    +61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda.
    West Australia 6076
    comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot
    Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.
    EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.

  12. Re: pussification of newsgroups

    bob.birch@gmail.com writes:

    > A bootstrap as copyright property ? You gotta be kidding !


    True, The DLV11 boot would not work on a 73 as it had odd addresses in
    it, which the fonz ignored. The `owner' of the code was lost or
    something so the whole process wedged.

    A couple of other boot had 3rd party owners too I think.

    --
    Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd.,
    +61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda.
    West Australia 6076
    comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot
    Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.
    EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.

  13. Re: Mentec US is gone!

    William Pechter wrote:
    >
    >If you want to run Unix on a 32 bit Vax legally there's always BSD or 32V for
    >the historic types and NetBSD and OpenBSD for the more security conscious.


    Don't 4.2BSD and 32V require both AT&T licenses _and_ licenses from Berkeley?
    They used to, when they were current.

    Hmm... how about BRL Unix? That still requires the AT&T license but the
    rest of it was government-developed and therefore should be available.

    The modern NetBSD should be available (and it pretty nice) for most 32-bit
    systems, though not for anything smaller.
    --scott
    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

  14. Re: pussification of newsgroups

    >>> Actually, they bought more than they cloned. Did you ever see the
    >>> Russian clone of the Apple II. It took up the whole top of a desk
    >>> just for the CPU box. And the Z80 was cloned by using industrial
    >>> espionage to get copies of the real chip masks from Zilog. They
    >>> were never bright enough or ambitious enough to truly "clone" anything.

    >>
    >>There was a story of a Russian 8080 with masks made from pictures
    >>of real 8080 chips. That is, directly from images with a little
    >>enlargement.


    Has anyone used the Soviet PDP-11 clones? I know that the University of
    Oulu in Finland used to have one on the net back in the late eighties,
    which was accessable by telnet, and the students that were running it were
    kind of proud of the machine.
    --scott
    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

  15. Re: Mentec US is gone!

    wrote:
    >
    >Well, the reason I'm doubting this is because you have hundreds.
    >Ultrix didn't seem to be that busy and were hanging on by the
    >skin of their bits (the product was barely selling enough hardware).
    >So hundreds doesn't compute ;-).


    I have a bunch of Ultrix-16 licenses _because_ it didn't sell well, and
    when the machines were shut down nobody wanted the old licenses.

    Ultrix/Vax didn't sell very well (because it was really just 4.xBSD+bugs
    and DEC had no real idea how to sell it anyway), but later Ultrix on the
    DECStation machines were very popular. The Decstation 3100 and 5000 were
    really slick machines... the 5000 had graphics hardware better than Suns
    at a fraction of the price.

    I worked at one site, though, where we had lots of uVax II machines
    and wound up relicensing them for Ultrix because they were basically
    available for the asking from the surplus property guys and users wanted
    Unix.
    --scott
    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

  16. Re: Mentec US is gone!

    In article ,
    kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) writes:
    > wrote:
    >>
    >>Well, the reason I'm doubting this is because you have hundreds.
    >>Ultrix didn't seem to be that busy and were hanging on by the
    >>skin of their bits (the product was barely selling enough hardware).
    >>So hundreds doesn't compute ;-).

    >
    > I have a bunch of Ultrix-16 licenses _because_ it didn't sell well, and
    > when the machines were shut down nobody wanted the old licenses.


    What was Ultrix-16? PDP-11 ran Ultrix-11. VAX ran Ultrix-32. Maybe they
    didn't sell well because there was none. :-)

    >
    > Ultrix/Vax didn't sell very well (because it was really just 4.xBSD+bugs
    > and DEC had no real idea how to sell it anyway), but later Ultrix on the
    > DECStation machines were very popular. The Decstation 3100 and 5000 were
    > really slick machines... the 5000 had graphics hardware better than Suns
    > at a fraction of the price.


    I had a VAXStation 3100 when I first got to the University. If you want
    to now my opinion of it, consider that I now have at least a half-dozen
    VAXStation 3100 but not a single DECStation 3100. When I got my first
    Sparcstation I it ran circles around the DECStation. Come to think of
    it, so did the SUN-3's.

    >
    > I worked at one site, though, where we had lots of uVax II machines
    > and wound up relicensing them for Ultrix because they were basically
    > available for the asking from the surplus property guys and users wanted
    > Unix.


    That's why I would have liked to see HP relases Ultrix-32 like Ultrix-11.
    BUt sadly, they are not interested in even talking about it and send you
    off looking for NetBSD. Unfortunately, NetBSD has moved forward so far
    in its efforts to support other architectures with more horsepower it
    is now too much of a dog to run on something the size of a MicroVAX or
    VAXStation. Nevermind the fact that much of the VAX Hardware is still
    and never will be supported. Litt;e things like DSSI and Graphics, :-)

    bill

    --
    Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
    bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
    University of Scranton |
    Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include

  17. Re: Mentec US is gone!

    In article ,
    Scott Dorsey wrote:
    >William Pechter wrote:
    >>
    >>If you want to run Unix on a 32 bit Vax legally there's always BSD or 32V for
    >>the historic types and NetBSD and OpenBSD for the more security conscious.

    >
    >Don't 4.2BSD and 32V require both AT&T licenses _and_ licenses from Berkeley?
    >They used to, when they were current.
    >
    >Hmm... how about BRL Unix? That still requires the AT&T license but the
    >rest of it was government-developed and therefore should be available.
    >
    >The modern NetBSD should be available (and it pretty nice) for most 32-bit
    >systems, though not for anything smaller.
    >--scott
    >--
    >"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."


    For now this isn't a problem thanks to Caldera (pre-SCO).
    We can even make derived products... The BSD stuff license is freely
    available if you have the 32v... so we should be able to get all that.

    SCO of course pulled the web page to it down... But I got the license
    back in '2000 or so and have not seen anything from them in writing
    or email cancelling the license.

    http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Caldera-license.pdf

    Don't know much about BRL Unix. They were running BSD when I was
    a service guy there.

    Here's a link to an blog archive about the agreement.

    http://radio.weblogs.com/0120124/2003/07/14.html


    Caldera Ancient Unix Software License Agreement

    Ancient UNIX from CALDERA

    CALDERA INTERNATIONAL, INC. HEREBY GRANTS TO YOU THE SPECIAL SOFTWARE
    LICENSE AGREEMENT STATED BELOW ONLY FOR THE PURPOSES STATED IN THIS
    SPECIAL SOFTWARE LICENSE AGREEMENT. BY DOWNLOADING, INSTALLING, OR USING
    THE ANCIENT UNIX SOURCE CODE, YOU ACKNOWLEDGE THAT YOU HAVE READ THIS
    SPECIAL SOFTWARE LICENSE AGREEMENT, UNDERSTAND IT, AND AGREE TO BE BOUND
    BY IT.

    CALDERA INTERNATIONAL, INC. SPECIAL SOFTWARE LICENSE AGREEMENT FOR
    ANCIENT UNIX SOURCE CODE (AGREEMENT)

    A.CALDERA INTERNATIONAL, INC. , a California corporation (SCO), having
    an office at 400 Encinal Street, Santa Cruz, California 95061-1900 and
    you as LICENSEE, agree that, as of the Effective Date hereof, as defined
    in Section 7.1, the terms and conditions set forth in this AGREEMENT
    shall apply to use by LICENSEE of SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS subject to this
    AGREEMENT.

    B. CALDERA INTERNATIONAL, INC. makes certain licensing rights for SOURCE
    CODE PRODUCTS available under this AGREEMENT, including rights to make
    and use DERIVED BINARY PRODUCTS. Such SOURCE CODE PRODUCT is identified
    in Section 3 of this AGREEMENT .

    C. This AGREEMENT sets forth the entire agreement and understanding
    between the parties as to the subject matter hereof and merges all prior
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    any conditions, definitions, warranties, understandings or
    representations with respect to such subject matter other than as
    expressly provided herein or as duly set forth on or subsequent to the
    date of acceptance hereof in writing and signed by a proper and duly
    authorized representative of the party to be bound thereby. No provision
    appearing on any form originated by LICENSEE shall be applicable unless
    such provision is expressly accepted in writing by an authorized
    representative of CALDERA INTERNATIONAL, INC.

    D. The AUTHORIZED COUNTRY for this AGREEMENT shall be any countries not
    excluded by Section 5.2

    I. DEFINITIONS

    1.1 AUTHORIZED COUNTRY means one or more countries specified above.

    1.2 CPU means a computer having one or more processing units and a
    single global memory space.

    1.3 COMPUTER PROGRAM means any instruction or instructions for
    controlling the operation of a CPU.

    1.4 DERIVED BINARY PRODUCT means COMPUTER PROGRAMS in OBJECT CODE format
    based on a SOURCE CODE PRODUCT.

    1.5 DESIGNATED CPU means all CPUs licensed as such for a specific SOURCE
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    1.6 OBJECT CODE means a COMPUTER PROGRAM in binary form, resulting from
    the compilation of SOURCE CODE by computer or compiler into machine
    executable code and which is in a form of computer programs not
    convenient to human understanding of the program logic, but which is
    appropriate for execution or interpretation by computer.

    1.7 SOURCE CODE means COMPUTER PROGRAMS written in certain programming
    languages in electronic media form and in a form convenient for reading
    and review by a trained individual, such as a printed or written listing
    of programs, containing specific algorithms, instructions, plans,
    routines and the like, for controlling the operation of a computer
    system, but which is not in a form that would be suitable for execution
    directly on computer hardware.

    1.8 SOURCE CODE PRODUCT means a SCO software offering, primarily in
    SOURCE CODE form. Such offering may also include OBJECT CODE components.

    1.9 SUCCESSOR OPERATING SYSTEM means a SCO software offering that is (i)
    specifically designed for a 16-Bit computer, or (ii) the 32V version,
    and (iii) specifically excludes UNIX System V and successor operating
    systems.

    2. GRANT OF RIGHTS

    2.1 (a) CALDERA INTERNATIONAL, INC. grants to LICENSEE a personal,
    nontransferable and nonexclusive right to use, in the AUTHORIZED
    COUNTRY, each SOURCE CODE PRODUCT identified in Section 3 of this
    AGREEMENT, solely for personal use (as restricted in Section 2.1(b)) and
    solely on or in conjunction with DESIGNATED CPUs, and/or Networks of
    CPUs, licensed by LICENSEE through this SPECIAL SOFTWARE LICENSE
    AGREEMENT for such SOURCE CODE PRODUCT. Such right to use includes the
    right to modify such SOURCE CODE PRODUCT and to prepare DERIVED BINARY
    PRODUCT based on such SOURCE CODE PRODUCT, provided that any such
    modification or DERIVED BINARY PRODUCT that contains any part of a
    SOURCE CODE PRODUCT subject to this AGREEMENT is treated hereunder the
    same as such SOURCE CODE PRODUCT. CALDERA INTERNATIONAL, INC. claims no
    ownership interest in any portion of such a modification or DERIVED
    BINARY PRODUCT that is not part of a SOURCE CODE PRODUCT.

    (b) Personal use is limited to noncommercial uses. Any such use made in
    connection with the development of enhancements or modifications to
    SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS is permitted only if (i) neither the results of
    such use nor any enhancement or modification so developed is intended
    primarily for the benefit of a third party and (ii) any copy of any such
    result, enhancement or modification, furnished by LICENSEE to a third
    party holder of an equivalent Software License with CALDERA
    INTERNATIONAL, INC., where permitted by Section 8.4(b) below, is
    furnished for no more than the cost of reproduction and shipping. Any
    such copy that includes any portion of a SOURCE CODE PRODUCT shall be
    subject to the provisions of such Section 8.4.

    (c) LICENSEE may produce printed and on-line copies of documentation
    included with the SOURCE CODE PRODUCT as necessary for use with the
    DESIGNATED CPUs. All copies must include a legally sufficient copyright
    notice and a statement that the documents include a portion or all of
    CALDERA INTERNATIONAL, INC.'s copyrighted documentation, which is being
    reproduced with permission.

    (d) Commercial use by LICENSEE of SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS or of any result,
    enhancement or modification associated with the use of SOURCE CODE
    PRODUCTS under this AGREEMENT is not permitted. Such commercial use is
    permissible only pursuant to the terms of an appropriate commercial
    software agreement between CALDERA INTERNATIONAL, INC. or a corporate
    affiliate thereof and LICENSEE. For purposes of this AGREEMENT,
    commercial use includes, but is not limited to, furnishing copies to
    third parties in a manner not permitted by Section 8.4(b).

    (e) CALDERA INTERNATIONAL, INC. also grants LICENSEE a personal,
    nontransferable and nonexclusive right to make copies of DERIVED BINARY
    PRODUCTS and, subject to U. S. Government export requirements and to
    Section 8.4(b), to furnish such copies directly to other LICENSEES who
    have an equivalent Software License with CALDERA INTERNATIONAL, INC.
    before or at the time of furnishing each copy of a DERIVED BINARY
    PRODUCT.

    2.2 (a) Any notice acknowledging a contribution of a third party
    appearing in a SOURCE CODE PRODUCT shall be included in corresponding
    portions of DERIVED BINARY PRODUCTS made by LICENSEE.

    (b) Each portion of a DERIVED BINARY PRODUCT shall include an
    appropriate copyright notice. Such copyright notice may be the copyright
    notice or notices appearing in or on the corresponding portions of the
    SOURCE CODE PRODUCT on which such DERIVED BINARY PRODUCT is based or, if
    copyrightable changes are made in developing such DERIVED BINARY
    PRODUCT, a copyright notice identifying the owner of such changes.

    2.3 No right is granted hereunder to use any trademark of CALDERA
    INTERNATIONAL, INC. (or a corporate affiliate thereof). However,
    LICENSEE must state in packaging, labeling or otherwise that a DERIVED
    BINARY PRODUCT is derived from CALDERA INTERNATIONAL, INC.'s software
    under license from CALDERA INTERNATIONAL, INC. and identify such
    software (including any trademark, provided the proprietor of the
    trademark is appropriately identified). LICENSEE agrees not to use a
    name or trademark for a DERIVED BINARY PRODUCT that is confusingly
    similar to a name or trademark used by CALDERA INTERNATIONAL, INC. (or a
    corporate affiliate thereof).

    2.4 A single back-up CPU may be used as a substitute for the DESIGNATED
    CPU without notice to CALDERA INTERNATIONAL, INC. during any time when
    such DESIGNATED CPU is inoperative because it is malfunctioning or
    undergoing repair, maintenance or other modification.

    3. LICENSED SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS

    The SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS to which CALDERA INTERNATIONAL, INC. grants
    rights under this AGREEMENT are restricted to the following UNIX
    Operating Systems, including SUCCESSOR OPERATING SYSTEMs, that operate
    on the 16-Bit PDP-11 CPU and early versions of the 32-Bit UNIX Operating
    System with specific exclusion of UNIX System V and successor operating
    systems: 16-Bit UNIX Editions 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 32-bit 32V

    4. DELIVERY

    CALDERA INTERNATIONAL, INC. makes no guarantees or commitments that any
    SOURCE CODE PRODUCT is available from CALDERA INTERNATIONAL, INC. If
    available, and upon acceptance by LICENSEE of the terms of this
    AGREEMENT, CALDERA INTERNATIONAL, INC. will provide LICENSEE one (1)
    copy of such SOURCE CODE PRODUCT via its FTP site established for such
    purpose.

    5. EXPORT

    5.1 LICENSEE agrees that it will not, without the prior written consent
    of CALDERA INTERNATIONAL, INC. , export, directly or indirectly, SOURCE
    CODE PRODUCTS covered by this AGREEMENT to any country outside of the
    AUTHORIZED COUNTRY.

    5.2 LICENSEE acknowledges that the SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS, the media, and
    any immediate product (including processes) produced directly by the use
    of any such SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS are subject to export controls under
    the U.S. Export Administration Regulations and the export regulations of
    other countries. LICENSEE may not export or re-export, directly or
    indirectly, the SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS, the media, any related technical
    information or materials covered by this AGREEMENT, or any immediate
    product (including processes) produced directly by the use of any such
    SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS to any country that is in violation of U.S. Export
    Administration Regulations and/or the export regulations of other
    countries unless an appropriate authorization from the U.S. Commerce
    Department and any other relevant government authority has been
    obtained.

    5.3 LICENSEE agrees that its obligations under Sections 5.1 and 5.2
    shall survive and continue after any termination of rights under this
    AGREEMENT.

    6. FEES AND TAXES

    6.1 The rights granted to LICENSEE for use of the SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS
    identified in Section 3 above are granted to LICENSEE at no charge.

    6.2 LICENSEE shall pay all taxes (and any related interest or penalty),
    however designated, imposed as a result of the existence or operation of
    this AGREEMENT, except (i) any tax imposed upon CALDERA INTERNATIONAL,
    INC. (or a corporate affiliate thereof) in the jurisdiction in which
    LICENSEE is located if such tax is allowable as a credit against United
    States income taxes of CALDERA INTERNATIONAL, INC. (or such an
    affiliate) and (ii) any income tax imposed upon CALDERA INTERNATIONAL,
    INC. (or such an affiliate) by the United States or any governmental
    entity within the United States proper (the fifty (50) states and the
    District of Columbia). To assist in obtaining the credit identified in
    (i) of this Section 6.2, LICENSEE shall furnish CALDERA INTERNATIONAL,
    INC. with such evidence as may be required by United States taxing
    authorities to establish that any such tax has been paid. If CALDERA
    INTERNATIONAL, INC. is required to collect a tax to be paid by LICENSEE,
    LICENSEE shall pay such tax to CALDERA INTERNATIONAL, INC. on demand.

    7. TERM

    7.1 This AGREEMENT shall become effective on and as of the date of
    acceptance of the terms of this AGREEMENT. The initial term of this
    AGREEMENT shall be for one (1) year. Thereafter, the AGREEMENT will
    automatically renew for successive one (1) year terms unless either
    party gives the other, no later than ninety (90) days before the end of
    the initial term, or then current extension, written notice of its
    intent to terminate this AGREEMENT. Nothing in this AGREEMENT shall be
    construed to require either party to extend this AGREEMENT beyond the
    initial term or any subsequent term.

    7.2 LICENSEE may terminate its rights under this AGREEMENT by written
    notice to CALDERA INTERNATIONAL, INC. certifying that LICENSEE has
    discontinued use of and returned or destroyed, at CALDERA INTERNATIONAL,
    INC.'s option, all copies of SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS subject to this
    AGREEMENT.

    7.3 If LICENSEE fails to fulfill one or more of its obligations under
    this AGREEMENT, CALDERA INTERNATIONAL, INC. may, upon its election and
    in addition to any other remedies it might have, at any time terminate
    all the rights granted by it hereunder to LICENSEE. Upon such
    termination LICENSEE shall immediately discontinue use of and return or
    destroy, at CALDERA INTERNATIONAL, INC.'s option, all copies of SOURCE
    CODE PRODUCTS in its possession.

    7.4 In the event of termination of LICENSEE's rights under Sections 7.2
    or 7.3, (i) all fees that LICENSEE has become obligated to pay shall
    become immediately due and payable and (ii) CALDERA INTERNATIONAL, INC.
    shall have no obligation to refund any amounts paid to it hereunder.

    8. MISCELLANEOUS PROVISIONS

    8.1 This AGREEMENT shall prevail notwithstanding any conflicting terms
    or legends which may appear in a SOURCE CODE PRODUCT.

    8.2 CALDERA INTERNATIONAL, INC. warrants that it is empowered to grant
    the rights granted herein. CALDERA INTERNATIONAL, INC. and other
    developers make no other representations or warranties, expressly or
    impliedly. By way of example but not of limitation, CALDERA
    INTERNATIONAL, INC. and other developers make no representations or
    warranties of merchantability or fitness for any particular purpose, or
    that the use of any SOURCE CODE PRODUCT will not infringe any patent,
    copyright or trademark. CALDERA INTERNATIONAL, INC. and other developers
    shall not be held to any liability with respect to any claim by
    LICENSEE, or a third party on account of, or arising from, the use of
    any SOURCE CODE PRODUCT.

    8.3 Neither the execution of this AGREEMENT nor anything in any SOURCE
    CODE PRODUCT shall be construed as an obligation upon CALDERA
    INTERNATIONAL, INC. or any other developer to furnish any person,
    including LICENSEE, any assistance of any kind whatsoever, or any
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    8.4 (a) LICENSEE agrees that it shall hold all parts of the SOURCE CODE
    PRODUCTS subject to this AGREEMENT in confidence for CALDERA
    INTERNATIONAL, INC. LICENSEE further agrees that should it make such
    disclosure of any or all of such SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS (including methods
    or concepts utilized therein) to anyone to whom such disclosure is
    necessary to the use for which rights are granted hereunder, LICENSEE
    shall appropriately notify each such person to whom any such disclosure
    is made that such disclosure is made in confidence and shall be kept in
    confidence and have each such person sign a confidentiality agreement
    containing restrictions on disclosure substantially similar to those set
    forth herein.

    If LICENSEE should become aware of a violation of CALDERA INTERNATIONAL,
    INC.'s intellectual property and/or proprietary rights, LICENSEE shall
    promptly notify CALDERA INTERNATIONAL, INC. and cooperate with CALDERA
    INTERNATIONAL, INC. in such enforcement.

    If information relating to a SOURCE CODE PRODUCT subject to this
    AGREEMENT at any time becomes available without restriction to the
    general public by acts not attributable to LICENSEE, LICENSEE's
    obligations under this section shall not apply to such information after
    such time.

    (b) Notwithstanding the provisions of Section 8.4(a), LICENSEE may make
    available copies of a SOURCE CODE PRODUCT, either in modified or
    unmodified form, to third parties in the AUTHORIZED COUNTRY having
    Source Code Licenses of the same scope herewith from CALDERA
    INTERNATIONAL, INC. for the same SOURCE CODE PRODUCT, if and only if (i)
    LICENSEE first requests verification of the status of the recipient by
    contacting CALDERA INTERNATIONAL, INC. at the address contained in
    Section 8.8(a) or other number specified by CALDERA INTERNATIONAL, INC.,
    and (ii) CALDERA INTERNATIONAL, INC. gives written verification of the
    recipient's software license status. LICENSEE shall maintain a record of
    each such SOURCE CODE PRODUCT made available.

    8.5 On CALDERA INTERNATIONAL, INC.'s request, but not more frequently
    than annually, LICENSEE shall furnish to CALDERA INTERNATIONAL, INC. a
    statement, listing the location, type and serial number of the
    DESIGNATED CPU hereunder and stating that the use by LICENSEE of SOURCE
    CODE PRODUCTS subject to this AGREEMENT has been reviewed and that each
    such SOURCE CODE PRODUCT is being used solely on the DESIGNATED CPU (or
    temporarily on a back-up CPU) for such SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS in full
    compliance with the provisions of this AGREEMENT.

    8.6 The obligations of LICENSEE under Section 8.4 shall survive and
    continue after any termination of rights under this AGREEMENT.

    8.7 Neither this AGREEMENT nor any rights hereunder, in whole or in
    part, shall be assignable or otherwise transferable by LICENSEE and any
    purported assignment or transfer shall be null and void.

    8.8 (a) Correspondence with CALDERA INTERNATIONAL, INC. relating to this
    AGREEMENT shall be sent to:

    CALDERA INTERNATIONAL, INC.
    400 Encinal Street
    Santa Cruz, California 95061-1900
    United States of America

    Attention: Law and Corporate Affairs

    8.9 LICENSEE shall obtain all approvals from any governmental authority
    in the AUTHORIZED COUNTRY required to effectuate this AGREEMENT
    according to its terms, including any such approvals required for
    LICENSEE to make payments to CALDERA INTERNATIONAL, INC. pursuant to
    this AGREEMENT. LICENSEE shall bear all expenses associated with
    obtaining such approvals.

    8.10 The construction and performance of this AGREEMENT shall be
    governed by the laws of the State of California, USA.


    Bill
    --
    --
    "When I think back on all the crap I learned in Vax school
    It's a wonder I fixed anything at all." (to the tune of Kodachrome)
    pechter-at-ureach.com

  18. Re: Mentec US is gone!

    On Sat, 23 Dec 06 13:21:05 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:

    >In article ,
    > Mike Ross wrote:


    >>It's a matter of historical accuracy; wherever possible you keep the
    >>system as close to the working configuration as possible. 'this was
    >>system x, running jobs y and z at company a from 1977-1998'. You don't
    >>mess with the installed OS or anything else. If you can get every
    >>record right back to the original invoices and make a paper trail so
    >>much the better.

    >
    >Oh, dear. I've run into people like you before. You are wrong.
    >First of all if you insist on running pristine, off the shelf,
    >specific software, you cannot use the code that is currently on
    >your system. It has been patched, restored, edited, and fixedup.
    >That is how the world worked back then.


    No no no no no, you don't get it... it's a matter of preserving the
    system *exactly as-is*; with whatever customer mods, patches, fixes,
    and bespoke software have or have not been applied. Running 'pristine,
    off the shelf' software is a poor third or fourth best... better than
    nothing, so long as it's contemporary and as close as possible to what
    the customer was actually running. 'off the shelf' software is exactly
    what I *don't* want to use, if at all possible. I want to use exactly
    what the customer used, when they last switched the system off.

    >Second of all, which date and time are you going to enter when
    >you boot up this pristine system? It will have to be pre-Y2K,
    >plus any date-time specific bugs, answers.


    Yep. Date the system was switched off is usually a good bet.

    >This is software. You cannot run pristine.


    Nor would I want to - see above.

    >>When a museum digs an ancient pot out of the ground, do they take
    >>fresh paint and paint it up nicely so it looks like new? Exactly the
    >>same situation and motivation.

    >
    >But they also don't use that pot to cook all their meals in either.


    Of course not - they keep it in as near 'as found' condition as
    possible, consistent with long-term preservation. Same as my aim with
    ancient computers. This includes whatever OS and applications they
    were running.

    >>This is where I have an issue with people like Bill and Johnny who
    >>talk about theft and stealing and make a song and dance about taking
    >>the extreme moral high ground; to me it's a very debateable question
    >>as to whether doing posterity a favour by preserving computing's past
    >>in as much detail as possible is not a more *moral* act than
    >>scrupulously obeying the somewhat artificial dictates of IP law as
    >>presently understood in our society. In terms of benefit to society
    >>and posterity I mean.

    >
    >But you are not interested in posterity. To keep the -11 business
    >alive and evolving, Mentec has to be profitable. If it is not,
    >it will go out of business, and EVERYTHING they have will be lost.
    >That is not posterity.


    No... I don't know what the future holds for current and evolving
    versions of the -11 OSes. And (meaning no disrespect to those who are
    very interested in this), that's not *my* primary concern - I'm only
    interested in the past.

    >I know what I'm talking about. I've seen knowledge go away. I
    >know what knowledge has disappeared. I have been working for
    >the last 12 years to keep more knowledge from disappearing.


    I know enough LCG history to know what you're talking about and
    believe me I'm in total agreement and sympathy. But that doesn't have
    any bearing on *my* chosen mission, preservation of entire systems
    from the past.

    Mike
    --
    http://www.corestore.org
    'As I walk along these shores
    I am the history within'

  19. Re: pussification of newsgroups

    On 23 Dec 2006 11:21:25 -0500, kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

    >>>> Actually, they bought more than they cloned. Did you ever see the
    >>>> Russian clone of the Apple II. It took up the whole top of a desk
    >>>> just for the CPU box. And the Z80 was cloned by using industrial
    >>>> espionage to get copies of the real chip masks from Zilog. They
    >>>> were never bright enough or ambitious enough to truly "clone" anything.
    >>>
    >>>There was a story of a Russian 8080 with masks made from pictures
    >>>of real 8080 chips. That is, directly from images with a little
    >>>enlargement.

    >
    >Has anyone used the Soviet PDP-11 clones? I know that the University of
    >Oulu in Finland used to have one on the net back in the late eighties,
    >which was accessable by telnet, and the students that were running it were
    >kind of proud of the machine.


    Different scale of machine, but this looks entertaining:

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=120059853068

    Mike
    --
    http://www.corestore.org
    'As I walk along these shores
    I am the history within'

  20. Re: Booting a new OS on DEC equipment [was Re: Mentec US is gone!]

    wrote:
    >
    >They are just 12 numbers, and numbers can't be copyrighted. You could
    >copyright the PERFORMANCE of setting each switch, but you would have to
    >CR every possible sequence. Expensive.


    But that's true of _all_ software. It's all just numbers.

    I think there is some common law on the subject, having to do with copyrighting
    log tables.
    --scott
    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

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