Mentec US is gone! - DEC

This is a discussion on Mentec US is gone! - DEC ; "Bill Gunshannon" wrote in message news:4unte2F18d5l3U1@mid.individual.net... > > Relax? I am relaxed. I am done with work for the rest of the year and > I am home playing with my personal PDP-11's. What could be more relaxing? > Well, ...

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Thread: Mentec US is gone!

  1. Re: Mentec US is gone!

    "Bill Gunshannon" wrote in message
    news:4unte2F18d5l3U1@mid.individual.net...
    >
    > Relax? I am relaxed. I am done with work for the rest of the year and
    > I am home playing with my personal PDP-11's. What could be more relaxing?
    > Well, running RSTS probably! But I can't. And we all know who's fault
    > that is! (Hint: Not Mentec's!!)
    >

    That's good to hear. Enjoy the holidays and have fun with your -11s.
    If you've been *REALLY* good this year and sent your letter to the North
    Pole early enough, maybe Santa will put an RSTS/E license in your
    stocking...




  2. Re: Mentec US is gone!

    [Please do not mail me a copy of your followup]

    jmfbahciv@aol.com spake the secret code
    thusly:

    >>>No, you don't. You expect everybody else to use his business
    >>>model which happens to create useless, short-term ****.

    >>
    >>Look, either stop repeating this baseless claim, or lay some facts
    >>underneath it that don't amount ot just pejorative descriptions or the
    >>typical ad-hominem attack.

    >
    >You do not know who I am. I was in the OS biz and do know what
    >I'm talking about.


    Ah. The "appeal to authority". You're an authority (so you claim),
    so I should just take your word for it. Sorry, that doesn't fly.

    And yes, I don't know who you are. Because I don't have a feeble mind
    that follows the opinions of others simply because they said it. I
    have a healthy mind that demands supporting evidence for claims. So
    either put it up there for us all to see, or shut up about it.

    >>The mere fact that millions and millions of people get work done with
    >>the stuff produced by Microsoft contradicts your claim that it is
    >>"useless".

    >
    >I know how they have to do their work. I also have a good idea
    >how much more they would accomplish if they didn't have to
    >wrestle with the ****ing OS every time they want to get something
    >done.


    LOL. I love how the Bill haters characterize computing in the current
    era. Funny how it doesn't correlate with my or most people's
    experience. The fact is that most people get their work done without
    fighting the computer every step of the way.

    >Do not lecture to me, son.


    I'm not lecturing you, I'm asking that you provide proof for your
    assertions. If you decide not to provide proof, then I'll just write
    you off as another Bill hater that has no more logic to their position
    other than "that damned Bill! How come he's worth billions but I'm
    not!".

    >>As for "short-term", try telling that to game developers that must
    >>still make their software run in Windows 95 at the pressure of the
    >>publishers.

    >
    >Win 95 is brand new in this biz. [...]


    Not if you talk to the average computer user instead of the crufty old
    curmudgeons who pine for the days of PDP-11s.
    --
    "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download


    Legalize Adulthood!

  3. Re: Mentec US is gone!

    [Please do not mail me a copy of your followup]

    jmfbahciv@aol.com spake the secret code
    thusly:

    >I should have said, grandson, to give you an idea of
    >how old this auld fart is and give you an estimate of
    >when I was in the computer manufacturing biz.


    Age is not a substitute for facts. Put up or shut up.
    --
    "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download


    Legalize Adulthood!

  4. Re: Mentec US is gone!

    On 18 Dec 2006 19:30:12 GMT, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:

    >Sorry, but you made me spit coffee all over my keyboard with that one!!
    >"Market value" is what an item sells for. Mentec (who owns the product)
    >has set the market value.


    It's my keyboard which is in danger here... Bill, Mentec set the
    *price*, not the market value. They set the price as seems best to
    them. If they set it too high, no-one will buy it. If they set it too
    low, they won't show a profit. You're confusing 'market value' with
    'price'.

    Look... I just bought a high-end collectors brass model train on ebay.
    The guy has had it up there, with a 'buy it now' of $1500 for six
    months - that was his idea of 'market value' Unfortunately he got it
    wrong. He turned down a 'best offer' of $1200 from me three months
    ago. So did I get the 'market value' wrong too? As it turns out, yes I
    did - he finally gave up and put it on open auction - I bought it
    yesterday, with a high bid of $860.

    Mentec don't determine the *market value* of *anything* - they simply
    chose a price which some proportion of the potential market is willing
    to bear.

    Mike
    --
    http://www.corestore.org
    'As I walk along these shores
    I am the history within'

  5. Re: Mentec US is gone!

    Robert Krten wrote:
    > In alt.sys.pdp11 Bill Gunshannon wrote:
    >> In article ,
    >> kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) writes:
    >>> Bill Gunshannon wrote:
    >>>> Sorry, but you made me spit coffee all over my keyboard with that one!!
    >>>> "Market value" is what an item sells for. Mentec (who owns the product)
    >>>> has set the market value.
    >>> But the item... the item isn't selling. That's the issue.

    >
    > Exactly. I think it might be useful if we put some numbers on this.
    > Let's say that their average loaded labour rate is US$100/h per employee,
    > just to keep things really simple (it might be half that, it might be 80%
    > of that, it might be 120% of that. Whatever.).
    >
    > How much are you (the greater you, i.e. "the hobbyists") actually hoping to
    > pay for a license? $10? $50? $100? $200?


    The OpenVMS license (while ostensibly 'free') costs me US$90 a year
    because I have to be a member of ENCOMPASS (the HP equivalent of DECUS).
    So US$100 a year is not out of the question; that's what the 'free'
    OpenVMS license costs.

    BTW maintaining these licenses costs HP/COMPAQ/DEC *nothing* because the
    VMS hobbyist program is maintained by a third party (Montagar Software).

    If the cost of generating paperwork for licenses was not acceptable to
    Mentec I'm sure they could find a vintage computer organization that
    would do the paperwork for them.

    The big sticking point I see is that RT11/RSTS/RSX don't have a limited
    time license facility that VMS does with it's PAKs (ie, you must renew
    your license every year for $90 or it expires and you can't run your s/w
    anymore). So the PDP-11 OSes would need to have a larger up-front
    payment because there would be no guarantee of a future renewal income
    stream. So US$250 for a one time hobbyist license fee seems reasonable
    to me. My guess is this is about 10% of Mentec's 'price' but I am just
    speculating here. Of course this fee would be devoid of any support.

    I don't think this will ever happen. My speculation is that in five to
    ten years from now Mentec will have exhausted their customer base and
    the PDP-11 OSes will become defacto public domain because they are just
    not worth anything to a corporate entity.

  6. Re: Mentec US is gone!

    In article ,
    koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote:
    >In article ,

    jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:
    >>
    >> It isn't uniquely their fault. When regular people never have
    >> to buy the pieces of the software they use, they think that
    >> there is no cost involved in manufacturing it. Before the PC
    >> came as a complete package, software was presented as an add-on.
    >> It is the mindset that I'm talking about.

    >
    > If regular people aren't aware they are buying software, then what's
    > the business justification for all those boxes on the sheleves of
    > Best Buy, CompUSA, and other stores?


    I thought we were talking about operating systems.

    /BAH

  7. Re: Mentec US is gone!

    In article ,
    Don North writes:
    > Robert Krten wrote:
    >> In alt.sys.pdp11 Bill Gunshannon wrote:
    >>> In article ,
    >>> kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) writes:
    >>>> Bill Gunshannon wrote:
    >>>>> Sorry, but you made me spit coffee all over my keyboard with that one!!
    >>>>> "Market value" is what an item sells for. Mentec (who owns the product)
    >>>>> has set the market value.
    >>>> But the item... the item isn't selling. That's the issue.

    >>
    >> Exactly. I think it might be useful if we put some numbers on this.
    >> Let's say that their average loaded labour rate is US$100/h per employee,
    >> just to keep things really simple (it might be half that, it might be 80%
    >> of that, it might be 120% of that. Whatever.).
    >>
    >> How much are you (the greater you, i.e. "the hobbyists") actually hoping to
    >> pay for a license? $10? $50? $100? $200?

    >
    > The OpenVMS license (while ostensibly 'free') costs me US$90 a year
    > because I have to be a member of ENCOMPASS (the HP equivalent of DECUS).
    > So US$100 a year is not out of the question; that's what the 'free'
    > OpenVMS license costs.
    >
    > BTW maintaining these licenses costs HP/COMPAQ/DEC *nothing* because the
    > VMS hobbyist program is maintained by a third party (Montagar Software).
    >
    > If the cost of generating paperwork for licenses was not acceptable to
    > Mentec I'm sure they could find a vintage computer organization that
    > would do the paperwork for them.
    >
    > The big sticking point I see is that RT11/RSTS/RSX don't have a limited
    > time license facility that VMS does with it's PAKs (ie, you must renew
    > your license every year for $90 or it expires and you can't run your s/w
    > anymore). So the PDP-11 OSes would need to have a larger up-front
    > payment because there would be no guarantee of a future renewal income
    > stream. So US$250 for a one time hobbyist license fee seems reasonable
    > to me. My guess is this is about 10% of Mentec's 'price' but I am just
    > speculating here. Of course this fee would be devoid of any support.
    >
    > I don't think this will ever happen. My speculation is that in five to
    > ten years from now Mentec will have exhausted their customer base and
    > the PDP-11 OSes will become defacto public domain because they are just
    > not worth anything to a corporate entity.


    There is no such thing as "defacto public domain". If an item is not
    explicitly put in the public domain it remains copyrighted until the
    copyright expires.

    bill

    --
    Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
    bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
    University of Scranton |
    Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include

  8. Re: Mentec US is gone!

    In article <1166447875.165303.210590@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups. com>,
    "madcrow" wrote:
    >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
    >
    >> Ah, so you want it cheap instead of their market price.
    >> That's not how the world works.

    >
    >Umm, how can an ordinary individual AFFORD the market prices for this?


    We weren't talking about ordinary individuals. We were talking
    about hobbyists who want to run Mentec's OS software.

    >Are you suggesting that vintage computing should be a hobby restricted
    >to the phenomenaly wealthy?


    Since when is the -11 OS biz vintage? It's still getting sold
    and maintained. Are you suggesting that the PDP-11 OS biz
    should not continue just because you want free software?
    If you want free software, pick up an old copy of something.
    There should be quite a few edu places that had their kiddies
    write their own. Another way to get access to OS software that
    is still being developed is to go work for the manufacturer.
    That's what I did.


    >Or are you just saying that we should
    >quietly operate without valid licenses and not want to do things in a
    >legal way?


    Why do you only give the choices where the result is that you
    get it for free at the expense of Mentec? The only way that
    PDP-11 OSes will stay current and cared for is if some company
    can make a profit by doing the work.
    >
    >> Have you tried to negotiate?

    >Yes, actually. I not only zipped them an e-mail, I actually CALLED on
    >the phone and asked about getting an affordable license for running the
    >stuff on Ersatz-11... They said that they "don't deal with private
    >individuals" What should I do, physically go to their HQ in New
    >Hampshire and bang on the door?


    From your attitude in this post, I wouldn't want to deal with you
    either because you're going to want to have all the privileges
    that come with buying the OS for free, too. It does seem that
    your idea of affordable is Mentec's idea of operating at a loss.

    Why don't you write your own OS that will run on your hardware?

    /BAH


  9. Re: Mentec US is gone!

    In article ,
    legalize+jeeves@mail.xmission.com (Richard) wrote:
    >[Please do not mail me a copy of your followup]
    >
    >jmfbahciv@aol.com spake the secret code
    > thusly:
    >
    >>I should have said, grandson, to give you an idea of
    >>how old this auld fart is and give you an estimate of
    >>when I was in the computer manufacturing biz.

    >
    >Age is not a substitute for facts. Put up or shut up.


    I am experienced in the OS manufacturing biz. Now
    what kinds of facts do you want?

    /BAH

  10. Re: Mentec US is gone!

    In article ,
    legalize+jeeves@mail.xmission.com (Richard) wrote:
    >[Please do not mail me a copy of your followup]
    >
    >jmfbahciv@aol.com spake the secret code
    > thusly:
    >
    >>>>No, you don't. You expect everybody else to use his business
    >>>>model which happens to create useless, short-term ****.
    >>>
    >>>Look, either stop repeating this baseless claim, or lay some facts
    >>>underneath it that don't amount ot just pejorative descriptions or the
    >>>typical ad-hominem attack.

    >>
    >>You do not know who I am. I was in the OS biz and do know what
    >>I'm talking about.

    >
    >Ah. The "appeal to authority". You're an authority (so you claim),
    >so I should just take your word for it. Sorry, that doesn't fly.
    >
    >And yes, I don't know who you are.


    My apologies. Most DEC types do know who I am. I'm posting from
    comp.sys.dec.

    > Because I don't have a feeble mind
    >that follows the opinions of others simply because they said it. I
    >have a healthy mind that demands supporting evidence for claims. So
    >either put it up there for us all to see, or shut up about it.


    Son, go read some listings that have both /JMF's and /BAH's and
    /TW's initials in them.
    >
    >>>The mere fact that millions and millions of people get work done with
    >>>the stuff produced by Microsoft contradicts your claim that it is
    >>>"useless".

    >>
    >>I know how they have to do their work. I also have a good idea
    >>how much more they would accomplish if they didn't have to
    >>wrestle with the ****ing OS every time they want to get something
    >>done.

    >
    >LOL. I love how the Bill haters characterize computing in the current
    >era. Funny how it doesn't correlate with my or most people's
    >experience.


    Then you have absolutely no idea how much you wouldn't have to do
    if you had an OS that didn't make your decisions for you no matter
    what you told it not to do.

    > The fact is that most people get their work done without
    >fighting the computer every step of the way.
    >
    >>Do not lecture to me, son.

    >
    >I'm not lecturing you, I'm asking that you provide proof for your
    >assertions. If you decide not to provide proof, then I'll just write
    >you off as another Bill hater that has no more logic to their position
    >other than "that damned Bill! How come he's worth billions but I'm
    >not!".


    I think I'll leave this one alone.
    >
    >>>As for "short-term", try telling that to game developers that must
    >>>still make their software run in Windows 95 at the pressure of the
    >>>publishers.

    >>
    >>Win 95 is brand new in this biz. [...]

    >
    >Not if you talk to the average computer user instead of the crufty old
    >curmudgeons who pine for the days of PDP-11s.


    Who is pining for -11s? They're still out there working and being
    supported.

    /BAH


  11. Re: Mentec US is gone!

    In article ,
    ChrisQuayle wrote:
    >Bob Koehler wrote:
    >> In article <4zWgh.8306$493.5278@newsfe4-gui.ntli.net>, ChrisQuayle

    writes:
    >>
    >>>C'mon Bill, a bit of a dodgy argument in this case. Fact: Hobbyists are
    >>>interested in running old dec os's for amusement or interest, not for
    >>>commercial gain.

    >>
    >>
    >> I'm only interested in running a Nintendo Wii for asmusement, so
    >> Nintendo should me the games for free after I buy a good used
    >> Wii?
    >>

    >
    >If you read the rest of the posts, in context, you'll see that i'm
    >mainly in agreement with Bill over this issue. I write software for a
    >living and am a hobbyist secondarily, though the line gets blurred much
    >of the time. While i'm quite happy to give stuff away, there's nothing
    >more annoying than people with bad attitude, freeloaders or those who
    >whine like a two year old when they can't get their own way. The type of
    >poster that describes the old dec os's as "rotting corpse". If it's that
    >rotting, why is it still of so much interest ?. If you need an os for
    >pdp, Ultrix 11 is free and downloadable and actually quite good, though
    >it may be too much effort for some to install. Even has a tcp/ip stack
    >as well and you can telnet and ftp into the box. Not bad for a decades
    >old system. So, in summary, can understand Mentec's position. Small
    >companies can't afford the admin costs that are involved with endless
    >anorak calls from people who want something for nothing. They are too
    >busy surviving.
    >
    >It would be good to have a hobbyist license, but you are depending on
    >the *generousity* and *goodwill* of the company concerned. After reading
    >some of the posts in this thread, i'm not surprised Mentec aren't
    >interested, neither would I...


    Yes, and it's really too bad that these types are queering any
    future considerations if their -11 code is going to be retired.

    /BAH



  12. Re: Mentec US is gone!

    In article ,
    kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
    >Bill Gunshannon wrote:
    >>Sorry, but you made me spit coffee all over my keyboard with that one!!
    >>"Market value" is what an item sells for. Mentec (who owns the product)
    >>has set the market value.

    >
    >But the item... the item isn't selling. That's the issue.
    >
    >>If you don't think it is worth what they set
    >>the price at, don't buy it.

    >
    >I don't. And most other people don't either. And consequently Mentec
    >appears to be having financial issues.
    >
    >> But I can not for the life of me understand
    >>how someone who has no idea what it cost them to buy it originally, no
    >>idea what it is costing them everyday to maintain or what their general
    >>oerating expenses (which also have to be covered by sales revenue) are
    >>can sit there and say, "They need to sell it to me for a lower price."
    >>Have you tried going into any store and telling them their products are
    >>overpriced and they need to sell them to you cheaper than what they list
    >>on the tag? Have you ever bought any jewelry? Markup is in the area of
    >>1000% What do you think would happen if you told the jewler the diamond
    >>ring you want isn't worth the $2000 he is asking so he should sell it to
    >>you for $50? Why does everyone think computer software should be any
    >>different than any other retail product?

    >
    >Because computer software is all up-front engineering cost, and not back
    >end manufacturing cost.


    This is complete utter bull****. You need 500 ton dosage of reality.



    /BAH

  13. Re: Mentec US is gone!

    In article <4uoab9F18rapqU1@mid.individual.net>,
    bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
    >In article ,
    > kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) writes:



    >>>How can you possibly know what their cost is? Or what their corporate
    >>>requirements for issuing and tracking licenses are? Or any of a dozen
    >>>other things that all have to be paid for in the long run.

    >>
    >> Because I have worked for software companies before.

    >
    >Sorry, hard to believe.


    Bill? That's why he has his wrong ideas about Mentec's
    manufacturing costs. He's never had to tie software development
    and maintenance with the hardware development and manufacturing biz.
    These incorrect ideas come from a MS mentality.




    /BAH

  14. Re: Mentec US is gone!

    Don North wrote:

    > The OpenVMS license (while ostensibly 'free') costs me US$90 a year
    > because I have to be a member of ENCOMPASS (the HP equivalent of DECUS).
    > So US$100 a year is not out of the question; that's what the 'free'
    > OpenVMS license costs.


    Really? I joined, over the web, as a free "associate member" I got my
    licenses, I get full access to ENCOMPASS's online services, and that's
    all I really want. The only things I would get extra if I PAID would be
    some paper mail that I would probably never have time to read and
    discounts to real-world events which I would probably never have time
    to attend... I get the full spectrum of services of things a Hobbyist
    could ever want/need for exactly $0/year.

    > BTW maintaining these licenses costs HP/COMPAQ/DEC *nothing* because the
    > VMS hobbyist program is maintained by a third party (Montagar Software).


    It doesn't even cost Montagar very much, as most of the stuff is done
    automatically.



    > The big sticking point I see is that RT11/RSTS/RSX don't have a limited
    > time license facility that VMS does with it's PAKs (ie, you must renew
    > your license every year for $90 or it expires and you can't run your s/w
    > anymore). So the PDP-11 OSes would need to have a larger up-front
    > payment because there would be no guarantee of a future renewal income
    > stream. So US$250 for a one time hobbyist license fee seems reasonable
    > to me. My guess is this is about 10% of Mentec's 'price' but I am just
    > speculating here. Of course this fee would be devoid of any support.


    Again, since the fee for the VMS Hobby program is $0 rather than $90, I
    don't see the point. $250 does seem like a reasonable number, though,
    especially if you got documentation and media. I suspect most people
    with the space for a real -11 can afford $250... They probably pay that
    much in a month in electricity...

    > I don't think this will ever happen. My speculation is that in five to
    > ten years from now Mentec will have exhausted their customer base and
    > the PDP-11 OSes will become defacto public domain because they are just
    > not worth anything to a corporate entity.


    It depends on who owns the copyright by that point. Some companies have
    no real problems with the concept of "abandonware" and look the other
    way when their no-longer-sold stuff is made available for free on the
    Web. Other companies go ballistic at the thought and bring the full
    force of the law down on anyone they can catch.


  15. Re: Mentec US is gone!

    In article <1166535558.963271.80660@i12g2000cwa.googlegroups.c om>,
    "madcrow" wrote:
    >Don North wrote:
    >
    >> The OpenVMS license (while ostensibly 'free') costs me US$90 a year
    >> because I have to be a member of ENCOMPASS (the HP equivalent of DECUS).
    >> So US$100 a year is not out of the question; that's what the 'free'
    >> OpenVMS license costs.

    >
    >Really? I joined, over the web, as a free "associate member" I got my
    >licenses, I get full access to ENCOMPASS's online services, and that's
    >all I really want. The only things I would get extra if I PAID would be
    >some paper mail that I would probably never have time to read and
    >discounts to real-world events which I would probably never have time
    >to attend... I get the full spectrum of services of things a Hobbyist
    >could ever want/need for exactly $0/year.
    >
    >> BTW maintaining these licenses costs HP/COMPAQ/DEC *nothing* because the
    >> VMS hobbyist program is maintained by a third party (Montagar Software).

    >
    >It doesn't even cost Montagar very much, as most of the stuff is done
    >automatically.


    Oh, honey [very sad emoticon here] Nothing in the computer services
    biz is done automatically. Every time you see an "automatic" service,
    you are observing the results of at least hundred man-years' worth
    of work.



    /BAH

  16. Re: Mentec US is gone!

    Michael Kraemer writes:

    > Compared to that, the stuff in question here is some 1950s 3-wheel
    > 2-stroke-engine junker rotting in some garage, the little boys from
    > the neighbourhood use it for their joyrides, but the owner still
    > pretends it is a Ferrari and tries to sell it at Ferrari prices.


    Stop being nasty to Morgans.

    --
    Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd.,
    +61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda.
    West Australia 6076
    comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot
    Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.
    EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.

  17. Re: Mentec US is gone!

    In article , jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:
    >
    > I thought we were talking about operating systems.


    I didn't, but I've seen copies of Mac OS, Windows, and Linux amoung
    those boxes. There must be a bisuness justification for carrying
    those products.


  18. Re: Mentec US is gone!

    In article ,
    wrote:
    >In article ,
    > legalize+jeeves@mail.xmission.com (Richard) wrote:
    >>[Please do not mail me a copy of your followup]
    >>
    >>jmfbahciv@aol.com spake the secret code
    >> thusly:
    >>
    >>>>>No, you don't. You expect everybody else to use his business
    >>>>>model which happens to create useless, short-term ****.
    >>>>


    [snip]

    >>Not if you talk to the average computer user instead of the crufty old
    >>curmudgeons who pine for the days of PDP-11s.

    >
    >Who is pining for -11s? They're still out there working and being
    >supported.
    >
    >/BAH
    >


    I'm pining for PDP11's... With real toggle switches.

    There are not too many left in my area now. (Probably none...)

    Vaxes are also very rare and you couldn't spit in the 1990 timeframe
    without hitting one or the other in Monmouth County, NJ.

    Now you have old Farts like me wishing there was a way for me to play
    with them legally... with the real OS on 'em.

    I've dumped all my non-VAX stuff staying with Sun's and Solaris and
    SunOS for Unix and PC emulation with SimH for the rest.

    I really would've fought hard to keep the 11 hardware I had if there was
    the ability to run them legally. (Not for profit -- just for the fun of
    seeing the different light pattern on RT11, RSX11 and RSTS/E again...)


    Bill

    --
    --
    "When I think back on all the crap I learned in Vax school
    It's a wonder I fixed anything at all." (to the tune of Kodachrome)
    pechter-at-ureach.com

  19. Re: Mentec US is gone!

    In article , Don North
    wrote:


    >BTW maintaining these licenses costs HP/COMPAQ/DEC *nothing* because the
    >VMS hobbyist program is maintained by a third party (Montagar Software).


    What makes you suppose this doesn't cost HP anything?

  20. Re: Mentec US is gone!

    In article ,
    koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote:
    >In article ,

    jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:
    >>
    >> I thought we were talking about operating systems.

    >
    > I didn't, but I've seen copies of Mac OS, Windows, and Linux amoung
    > those boxes. There must be a bisuness justification for carrying
    > those products.
    >

    Do you really expect regular users (such as our mothers) to buy
    an OS and play system analyst? I'm not talking about people
    who are highly sophisticated bit users.

    /BAH

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