Mentec US is gone! - DEC

This is a discussion on Mentec US is gone! - DEC ; In article , Mike Ross writes: > On 17 Dec 2006 09:34:53 -0800, "madcrow" > wrote: > >>jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >>> Then pay for it. Make it worth Mentec's interests to offer that >>> kind of license. >> >>Umm, how ...

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Thread: Mentec US is gone!

  1. Re: Mentec US is gone!

    In article ,
    Mike Ross writes:
    > On 17 Dec 2006 09:34:53 -0800, "madcrow"
    > wrote:
    >
    >>jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
    >>
    >>> Then pay for it. Make it worth Mentec's interests to offer that
    >>> kind of license.

    >>
    >>Umm, how can you buy something not even offered? Mentec does not offer
    >>low-cost licenses for hobbyists. You have to pay the same
    >>multi-thousand dollar price wheteher you're a nerd with a surplus -11
    >>or two in the basement or a multi-national corporation...As far as I
    >>can tell, they aren't willing to negotiate on a case-by-case basis...

    >
    > Yea, more. In my experience (and in the experience of many other
    > people who have tried to talk to them, not just 'hobbyists'), they are
    > simply unresponsive to ALL enquiries - you might as well send it to
    > /dev/null


    And just what business do you have the currently uses or is likely to
    use a PDP-11 commercially? Where did you buy your commercially viable
    PDP-11? Who has the contract for your hardware maintenance? While the
    PDP-11 business is still commercially viable it is understandably small.
    Do you thnk it unreasonable that Mentec might not already know pretty
    much all the potential commercial customers and when they get contacted
    via Email from a USENET denizen that they might not realize it's just
    another hobbyist wanting a low-ball quote for the 11/23 in their basement.
    I would not be surprised to find out that Mentec knew what hardware I
    had at the University almost as quickly as I did. Especially knowing
    where I got it from.

    For those who seem to think Mentec US is dead, if so, why did they just
    contract with someone major to handle their web page? Seems to me all
    they have really done is decide not to run their own webserver. If that's
    a sign of business death, there are an awful lot of dead companies in the
    US today!!

    bill

    --
    Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
    bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
    University of Scranton |
    Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include

  2. Re: Mentec US is gone!

    [Please do not mail me a copy of your followup]

    jmfbahciv@aol.com spake the secret code
    thusly:

    >Ah, now we come to the crux of the matter. Mentex
    >has to continually add bells and whistles and bugs or
    >else give their products away free. You have been
    >bred, born and raised on Mic****'s business model.


    Bull****. Again, this has nothing to do with Microsoft.

    What you're describing is more the attitude of the open source
    movement and not anything to do with Microsoft.
    --
    "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download


    Legalize Adulthood!

  3. Re: Mentec US is gone!

    [Please do not mail me a copy of your followup]

    bill@cs.uofs.edu spake the secret code
    <4ul6vbF18qvqdU1@mid.individual.net> thusly:

    >There is no such thing as "abandonware". that is a term created
    >specifically to let people rationalize their blatant theft of
    >someone elses's property.


    I disagree. There are software products that have been abandoned and
    according to the podcast "this week in tech" recently, there was a
    court case that sanctioned some aspects of what people want to do with
    abandonware.

    However, I would agree that the term abandonware is tossed around too
    glibly as an excuse to raid the software treasure chest.
    --
    "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download


    Legalize Adulthood!

  4. Re: Mentec US is gone!

    [Please do not mail me a copy of your followup]

    jmfbahciv@aol.com spake the secret code
    thusly:

    >>I avoid billyware wherever I can (and quite successfully so far).

    >
    >No, you don't. You expect everybody else to use his business
    >model which happens to create useless, short-term ****.


    Look, either stop repeating this baseless claim, or lay some facts
    underneath it that don't amount ot just pejorative descriptions or the
    typical ad-hominem attack.

    The mere fact that millions and millions of people get work done with
    the stuff produced by Microsoft contradicts your claim that it is
    "useless".

    As for "short-term", try telling that to game developers that must
    still make their software run in Windows 95 at the pressure of the
    publishers.
    --
    "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download


    Legalize Adulthood!

  5. Re: Mentec US is gone!

    bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:

    > Irrelevant. They still own it. Define "interest"! Just because
    > they won't talk to hobbyists about it doesn't mean they have no
    > interest. There are still a lot of people using the PDP-11 OSes
    > commercially and, they seem to have no problem getting in touch with
    > Mentec or arranging for licenses when needed.


    I wonder about that. I had some one come here from overseas to get me
    to sort out his RT-11 system because he could not get any usefull info
    from Mentec or anyone else.

    --
    Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd.,
    +61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda.
    West Australia 6076
    comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot
    Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.
    EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.

  6. Re: Mentec US is gone!

    "Bill Gunshannon" wrote in message
    news:4ulrk1F18n90hU2@mid.individual.net...
    > And just what business do you have the currently uses or is likely to
    > use a PDP-11 commercially? Where did you buy your commercially viable
    > PDP-11? Who has the contract for your hardware maintenance? While the
    > PDP-11 business is still commercially viable it is understandably small.
    > Do you thnk it unreasonable that Mentec might not already know pretty
    > much all the potential commercial customers and when they get contacted
    > via Email from a USENET denizen that they might not realize it's just
    > another hobbyist wanting a low-ball quote for the 11/23 in their basement.
    > I would not be surprised to find out that Mentec knew what hardware I
    > had at the University almost as quickly as I did. Especially knowing
    > where I got it from.


    Why do you defend Mentec with such vigour? Do you get kickbacks from PDP-11
    licenses or are you just a disgruntled and permanently pissed-off dude
    working for a university's computer science department?

    Relax Bill. Its almost Christmas. Drink some eggnog or something...



  7. Re: Mentec US is gone!

    In article ,
    legalize+jeeves@mail.xmission.com (Richard) wrote:
    >[Please do not mail me a copy of your followup]
    >
    >jmfbahciv@aol.com spake the secret code
    > thusly:
    >
    >>Oh, bull****. People pay thousands of dollars on their interests.
    >>What is unusual about the computer biz is that the younger
    >>generations believe that they should get everything free when
    >>it comes to system hard/software. This is a side effect
    >>of mic****'s business model. [...]

    >
    >I was with you up until that last point. It has nothing to do with
    >Microsoft and in fact this attitude isn't specific to computers and
    >isn't unique to the current times. A similar sentiment has been
    >expressed about every new "young generation" to come along since
    >people have been complaining.
    >
    >I know its popular, trendy and fashionable to bash Microsoft and blame
    >them for all that is considered bad in the world, but my bull****
    >detector went straight off the scale when you tried to lay this one at
    >Microsoft's feet.


    It isn't uniquely their fault. When regular people never have
    to buy the pieces of the software they use, they think that
    there is no cost involved in manufacturing it. Before the PC
    came as a complete package, software was presented as an add-on.
    It is the mindset that I'm talking about.

    /BAH

  8. Re: Mentec US is gone!

    In article ,
    legalize+jeeves@mail.xmission.com (Richard) wrote:
    >[Please do not mail me a copy of your followup]
    >
    >jmfbahciv@aol.com spake the secret code
    > thusly:
    >
    >>Ah, now we come to the crux of the matter. Mentex
    >>has to continually add bells and whistles and bugs or
    >>else give their products away free. You have been
    >>bred, born and raised on Mic****'s business model.

    >
    >Bull****. Again, this has nothing to do with Microsoft.
    >
    >What you're describing is more the attitude of the open source
    >movement and not anything to do with Microsoft.


    Most people are not even aware of the thingie called open
    source. Most people think that hardware and software are
    the same thing and come in one package. The thing they
    think they are buying is the piece that they can touch with
    their fingers, not the software.

    /BAH


  9. Re: Mentec US is gone!

    In article ,
    Michael Kraemer wrote:
    >ChrisQuayle schrieb:
    >> Michael Kraemer wrote:
    >>
    >> Well, as a car enthusiast. I would like Ferrari to give me a car, but it
    >> ain't going to happen.

    >
    >Oh no, not another car-OS comparison.


    The OS biz seems to evolve like the auto biz evolved over time.
    It can be a valid comparison.

    >At least a Ferrari has some real value,
    >is faster than the others and actively
    >being worked on.
    >Compared to that, the stuff in question here is
    >some 1950s 3-wheel 2-stroke-engine junker rotting in some
    >garage, the little boys from the neighbourhood use it for their joyrides,
    >but the owner still pretends it is a Ferrari and
    >tries to sell it at Ferrari prices.
    >It's just ridiculous.


    From the posts in this thread, it seems that the -11 software
    also has value.

    >
    >> In the end, everything for sale has a perceived
    >> value set by the vendor and if you want it that badly, you'll pay for
    >> it, otherwise do without. It's no use whinging on about how it has a low
    >> hobbyist value - they obviously disagree with you.

    >
    >Funny, but if I understand the story correctly,
    >they prefer to go under (with no business left at all)
    >rather than lowering prices and have some business at least.
    >Must be some strange branch of capitalism, indeed.


    So far, the only fact that seems to be true is that Mentec
    shut down its offices in the US. Nobody has said anything
    about the status of their other places.


    /BAH

  10. Re: Mentec US is gone!

    In article <1166376893.586774.114570@79g2000cws.googlegroups.c om>,
    "madcrow" wrote:
    >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
    >
    >> Then pay for it. Make it worth Mentec's interests to offer that
    >> kind of license.

    >
    >Umm, how can you buy something not even offered?

    According to Bill's posts, they do offer -11 code.

    >Mentec does not offer
    >low-cost licenses for hobbyists.


    Ah, so you want it cheap instead of their market price.
    That's not how the world works.

    > You have to pay the same
    >multi-thousand dollar price wheteher you're a nerd with a surplus -11
    >or two in the basement or a multi-national corporation...As far as I
    >can tell, they aren't willing to negotiate on a case-by-case basis...


    Have you tried to negotiate?

    /BAH


  11. Re: Mentec US is gone!

    In article ,
    Mike Ross wrote:
    >On 17 Dec 2006 09:34:53 -0800, "madcrow"
    >wrote:
    >
    >>jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
    >>
    >>> Then pay for it. Make it worth Mentec's interests to offer that
    >>> kind of license.

    >>
    >>Umm, how can you buy something not even offered? Mentec does not offer
    >>low-cost licenses for hobbyists. You have to pay the same
    >>multi-thousand dollar price wheteher you're a nerd with a surplus -11
    >>or two in the basement or a multi-national corporation...As far as I
    >>can tell, they aren't willing to negotiate on a case-by-case basis...

    >
    >Yea, more. In my experience (and in the experience of many other
    >people who have tried to talk to them, not just 'hobbyists'), they are
    >simply unresponsive to ALL enquiries - you might as well send it to
    >/dev/null


    That tells me that you tried via random email instead of a
    business approach.

    /BAH

  12. Re: Mentec US is gone!

    In article ,
    legalize+jeeves@mail.xmission.com (Richard) wrote:
    >[Please do not mail me a copy of your followup]
    >
    >jmfbahciv@aol.com spake the secret code
    > thusly:
    >
    >>>I avoid billyware wherever I can (and quite successfully so far).

    >>
    >>No, you don't. You expect everybody else to use his business
    >>model which happens to create useless, short-term ****.

    >
    >Look, either stop repeating this baseless claim, or lay some facts
    >underneath it that don't amount ot just pejorative descriptions or the
    >typical ad-hominem attack.


    You do not know who I am. I was in the OS biz and do know what
    I'm talking about.
    >
    >The mere fact that millions and millions of people get work done with
    >the stuff produced by Microsoft contradicts your claim that it is
    >"useless".


    I know how they have to do their work. I also have a good idea
    how much more they would accomplish if they didn't have to
    wrestle with the ****ing OS every time they want to get something
    done.

    Do not lecture to me, son.
    >
    >As for "short-term", try telling that to game developers that must
    >still make their software run in Windows 95 at the pressure of the
    >publishers.


    Win 95 is brand new in this biz. If you want to talk about
    backwards compatibility w.r.t. mic****, then you should be
    talking about DOS2.0, not Win 95.

    /BAH

  13. Re: Mentec US is gone!

    In article ,
    jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
    >In article ,
    > legalize+jeeves@mail.xmission.com (Richard) wrote:



    >Do not lecture to me, son.


    I want to amend this line.

    I should have said, grandson, to give you an idea of
    how old this auld fart is and give you an estimate of
    when I was in the computer manufacturing biz.

    /BAH



  14. Re: Mentec US is gone!

    jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:

    > Ah, so you want it cheap instead of their market price.
    > That's not how the world works.


    Umm, how can an ordinary individual AFFORD the market prices for this?
    Are you suggesting that vintage computing should be a hobby restricted
    to the phenomenaly wealthy? Or are you just saying that we should
    quietly operate without valid licenses and not want to do things in a
    legal way?

    > Have you tried to negotiate?

    Yes, actually. I not only zipped them an e-mail, I actually CALLED on
    the phone and asked about getting an affordable license for running the
    stuff on Ersatz-11... They said that they "don't deal with private
    individuals" What should I do, physically go to their HQ in New
    Hampshire and bang on the door?


  15. Re: Mentec US is gone!

    In article <4zWgh.8306$493.5278@newsfe4-gui.ntli.net>, ChrisQuayle writes:
    >
    > C'mon Bill, a bit of a dodgy argument in this case. Fact: Hobbyists are
    > interested in running old dec os's for amusement or interest, not for
    > commercial gain.


    I'm only interested in running a Nintendo Wii for asmusement, so
    Nintendo should me the games for free after I buy a good used
    Wii?


  16. Re: Mentec US is gone!

    In article , Michael Kraemer writes:

    > Why should a hobbyist pay an arm and a leg for
    > a product that hasn't been worked on for ages ?


    Because they want to.

    Some folks collect old cars. Some folks collect old computers.
    Some folks collect old software to run on those old computers.
    And generally all collections are of goods the collector bought.


  17. Re: Mentec US is gone!

    In article , jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:
    >
    > It isn't uniquely their fault. When regular people never have
    > to buy the pieces of the software they use, they think that
    > there is no cost involved in manufacturing it. Before the PC
    > came as a complete package, software was presented as an add-on.
    > It is the mindset that I'm talking about.


    If regular people aren't aware they are buying software, then what's
    the business justification for all those boxes on the sheleves of
    Best Buy, CompUSA, and other stores?


  18. Re: Mentec US is gone!

    Bob Koehler wrote:
    > In article <4zWgh.8306$493.5278@newsfe4-gui.ntli.net>, ChrisQuayle writes:
    >
    >>C'mon Bill, a bit of a dodgy argument in this case. Fact: Hobbyists are
    >>interested in running old dec os's for amusement or interest, not for
    >>commercial gain.

    >
    >
    > I'm only interested in running a Nintendo Wii for asmusement, so
    > Nintendo should me the games for free after I buy a good used
    > Wii?
    >


    If you read the rest of the posts, in context, you'll see that i'm
    mainly in agreement with Bill over this issue. I write software for a
    living and am a hobbyist secondarily, though the line gets blurred much
    of the time. While i'm quite happy to give stuff away, there's nothing
    more annoying than people with bad attitude, freeloaders or those who
    whine like a two year old when they can't get their own way. The type of
    poster that describes the old dec os's as "rotting corpse". If it's that
    rotting, why is it still of so much interest ?. If you need an os for
    pdp, Ultrix 11 is free and downloadable and actually quite good, though
    it may be too much effort for some to install. Even has a tcp/ip stack
    as well and you can telnet and ftp into the box. Not bad for a decades
    old system. So, in summary, can understand Mentec's position. Small
    companies can't afford the admin costs that are involved with endless
    anorak calls from people who want something for nothing. They are too
    busy surviving.

    It would be good to have a hobbyist license, but you are depending on
    the *generousity* and *goodwill* of the company concerned. After reading
    some of the posts in this thread, i'm not surprised Mentec aren't
    interested, neither would I...

    Chris

  19. Re: Mentec US is gone!

    In article <45866fd5$1_1@news.bluewin.ch>,
    "Giorgio Ungarelli" writes:
    > "Bill Gunshannon" wrote in message
    > news:4ulrk1F18n90hU2@mid.individual.net...
    >> And just what business do you have the currently uses or is likely to
    >> use a PDP-11 commercially? Where did you buy your commercially viable
    >> PDP-11? Who has the contract for your hardware maintenance? While the
    >> PDP-11 business is still commercially viable it is understandably small.
    >> Do you thnk it unreasonable that Mentec might not already know pretty
    >> much all the potential commercial customers and when they get contacted
    >> via Email from a USENET denizen that they might not realize it's just
    >> another hobbyist wanting a low-ball quote for the 11/23 in their basement.
    >> I would not be surprised to find out that Mentec knew what hardware I
    >> had at the University almost as quickly as I did. Especially knowing
    >> where I got it from.

    >
    > Why do you defend Mentec with such vigour? Do you get kickbacks from PDP-11
    > licenses or are you just a disgruntled and permanently pissed-off dude
    > working for a university's computer science department?
    >
    > Relax Bill. Its almost Christmas. Drink some eggnog or something...


    Why do so many people here think that Mentec should give their IP away
    just because they are hobbyists? As someone who used to earn his living
    writting maintaining OS Software I now what costs are involved and I
    find it rather disconcerting that people here think that somehow Mentec
    doesn't deserve to be compensated for their work.

    Relax? I am relaxed. I am done with work for the rest of the year and
    I am home playing with my personal PDP-11's. What could be more relaxing?
    Well, running RSTS probably! But I can't. And we all know who's fault
    that is! (Hint: Not Mentec's!!)

    bill

    --
    Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
    bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
    University of Scranton |
    Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include

  20. Re: Mentec US is gone!

    In article ,
    jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:
    >
    > So far, the only fact that seems to be true is that Mentec
    > shut down its offices in the US. Nobody has said anything
    > about the status of their other places.
    >


    Considering that they have apparently contracted out to someone to handle
    their web serving, I don't see where this idea that they have gone away
    is coming from. The webserver www.mentec-inc.com is still there. The
    only change is the fact that there is a page stating that Mentec's webpage
    is moving to a company (Yahoo) who specializes in running people's webpages.
    If deciding not to do your run your own webserver but rather to contract
    it out is a sign of corporate death then there are an awful lot of dead
    companies out there!!

    bill

    --
    Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
    bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
    University of Scranton |
    Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include

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