terminal server for vax? - DEC

This is a discussion on terminal server for vax? - DEC ; [Please do not mail me a copy of your followup] What would have been typically used on a VAXserver 4000/300 to provide support for a large number of serial terminals (say 8, 16 or 32 ports)? -- "The Direct3D Graphics ...

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 25

Thread: terminal server for vax?

  1. terminal server for vax?

    [Please do not mail me a copy of your followup]

    What would have been typically used on a VAXserver 4000/300 to provide
    support for a large number of serial terminals (say 8, 16 or 32 ports)?
    --
    "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ:

    Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty


  2. Re: terminal server for vax?

    In article ,
    legalize+jeeves@mail.xmission.com (Richard) wrote:

    > What would have been typically used on a VAXserver 4000/300 to provide
    > support for a large number of serial terminals (say 8, 16 or 32 ports)?


    CXY08?

    --
    We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams,
    Wandering by lone sea-breakers, And sitting by desolate streams.
    from "Ode", Arthur O'Shaughnessy

  3. Re: terminal server for vax?

    In article , legalize+jeeves@mail.xmission.com (Richard) writes:
    > [Please do not mail me a copy of your followup]
    >
    > What would have been typically used on a VAXserver 4000/300 to provide
    > support for a large number of serial terminals (say 8, 16 or 32 ports)?


    I used nothing but LAT based terminal servers back when VAXserver
    4000 series were failry modern. I do know of folks who used CXY08.


  4. Re: terminal server for vax?

    Richard wrote:

    > What would have been typically used on a VAXserver 4000/300 to provide
    > support for a large number of serial terminals (say 8, 16 or 32 ports)?


    The following assumes OpenVMS VAX, though there are and were multiple
    operating systems available for the VAXserver 4000 series Q-bus boxes.

    The VAXserver 4000 series was not originally licensed as a multi-user
    system, so having many serial lines was rare; you'd see this
    configuration for serial printers served off the host, or for
    connections for dedicated applications, for instance, but not typically
    for time-sharing operations.

    For VAX 4000 series boxes in that same vintage, likely one of the
    DECserver series terminal servers was chosen. Examples include the
    DECserver 90 series, or DECserver 700 series, or other similar options.

    There were certainly various serial communications options for the
    Q-bus (including the CXY series), but these tended to be options that
    were relatively discouraged in favor of connecting the terminal(s) into
    multiple hosts via LAT or IP; via the network.

    Connecting in via LAT meant the same terminal could specifically
    connect to multiple hosts, or could connect into a service offered by
    multiple hosts (eg: a cluster alias implemented in LAT, or into a LAT
    service offered for/by a series of application-specific User Interface
    nodes) without regard to the particular host.

    Various of the DIGITAL System and Options Catalog (SOC) entries for
    many of these old systems remain available in the left navigation at the
    URL .

  5. Re: terminal server for vax?

    [Please do not mail me a copy of your followup]

    In article you write:
    >
    > For VAX 4000 series boxes in that same vintage, likely one of the
    >DECserver series terminal servers was chosen. Examples include the
    >DECserver 90 series, or DECserver 700 series, or other similar options.


    Looking on ebay I see that there are a variety of products called
    'DECserver'. So far they are all terminal servers. Is it safe to
    assume this name was only used for terminal servers? Is there any
    qualitative difference in functionality between the DB25 port style
    DECservers and the RJ45 port style DECservers?

    My motivation here is that I have a collection of vintage serial
    terminals. I would like to have a multiplicity of them hooked to a
    single machine that could allow some sort of text-based timesharing.

    The options I have are:
    - PDP 11/03 running RT-11
    Seems too underpowered. AFAIK RT-11 just allows one "console"
    session and the other serial ports are just treated as output
    devices (like to an LA-120).

    - VAXserver 4000/300
    It should be able to handle it, but as you mention its not the
    kind of machine that was typically wired up with serial ports
    and used as a timesharing machine. You mentioned about the
    multi-user license; would the OpenVMS hobbyist license allow
    multiple logins?

    - plain old PC w/DigiBoard and SIMH
    I'd have to buy the digiboard ($$$) and even then I don't know
    how well SIMH would be able to use those serial ports provided
    by the DigiBoard. On the other hand, if this works I could
    run RSTS/E which is the timesharing environment I used in the
    1978-1980 time frame.

    > There were certainly various serial communications options for the
    >Q-bus (including the CXY series), but these tended to be options that
    >were relatively discouraged in favor of connecting the terminal(s) into
    >multiple hosts via LAT or IP; via the network.


    Can the DECserver models provide LAT connectivity, or do you need to
    get a different box for that? I am under the impression that VMS has
    LAT support builtin on the host side.

    I looked at the DECserver 90 manual which is what gave me the idea for
    buying some sort of terminal connectivity to my VAX. They mention
    installation of software in the manual, but I didn't drill deep enough
    to know if this was software installed on the 90 itself or on a host.
    Is there some sort of host software that must be installed in order
    to service these serial ports via the terminal server as distinct login
    sessions? I am not familiar with how VMS handles this and while my VAX
    has OpenVMS installed, I am a complete newbie to VMS :-).

    I know in *nix they did something like associate the login program
    with the serial device. So you would get a login by pressing RETURN
    on the terminal. I vaguely recall using a LAT server in 1989 to which
    you had to request connection to a particular host and then you got a
    telnet type login session. ISTR that you could have the terminal
    connected to multiple hosts via the LAT and could switch back and
    forth. Was specific terminal support required for this to work? I
    only did this with a VT220, so I don't know if it was exploiting
    something that was present only in DEC terminals.

    > Various of the DIGITAL System and Options Catalog (SOC) entries for
    >many of these old systems remain available in the left navigation at the
    >URL .


    I didn't find anything there on the DECserver 90, 700. Do you know
    specifically if its there and I just missed it?

    Thanks!
    --
    "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ:

    Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty


  6. Re: terminal server for vax?

    In article , legalize+jeeves@mail.xmission.com (Richard) writes:
    > Looking on ebay I see that there are a variety of products called
    > 'DECserver'. So far they are all terminal servers. Is it safe to
    > assume this name was only used for terminal servers? Is there any
    > qualitative difference in functionality between the DB25 port style
    > DECservers and the RJ45 port style DECservers?


    Some of the DB25 terminal servers have modem control. You can't do it with
    an RJ-45. But you could pack more RJ-45 (or MMJ on other models) connectors
    into less space than the equivalent number of DB25 connectors.

    --
    Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L >>> To reply, there's no internet on Mars (yet)! <<<
    Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/Document/MayJun00.pdf
    www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org

    S&T is becoming this decades Steve Weaver!

  7. Re: terminal server for vax?

    In message
    legalize+jeeves@mail.xmission.com (Richard) wrote:

    > [Please do not mail me a copy of your followup]
    >
    > In article you write:
    >>


    > Can the DECserver models provide LAT connectivity, or do you need to
    > get a different box for that? I am under the impression that VMS has
    > LAT support builtin on the host side.


    If I recall correctly, all Devcservers did LAT - some (most) also did
    TCP/IP

    > I looked at the DECserver 90 manual which is what gave me the idea for
    > buying some sort of terminal connectivity to my VAX. They mention
    > installation of software in the manual, but I didn't drill deep enough
    > to know if this was software installed on the 90 itself or on a host.
    > Is there some sort of host software that must be installed in order
    > to service these serial ports via the terminal server as distinct login
    > sessions? I am not familiar with how VMS handles this and while my VAX
    > has OpenVMS installed, I am a complete newbie to VMS :-).


    You need to use a program called LATCP to set up LAT services on VMS.
    I think it was add-on software in some VMS versions, and built in on
    later ones. It's been a few years since I did this stuff
    unfortunately...

    > I know in *nix they did something like associate the login program
    > with the serial device. So you would get a login by pressing RETURN
    > on the terminal. I vaguely recall using a LAT server in 1989 to which
    > you had to request connection to a particular host and then you got a
    > telnet type login session. ISTR that you could have the terminal
    > connected to multiple hosts via the LAT and could switch back and
    > forth. Was specific terminal support required for this to work? I
    > only did this with a VT220, so I don't know if it was exploiting
    > something that was present only in DEC terminals.


    LAT Terminal servers can be set up with a dedicated connection on a
    port, so pressing will connect you. VMS can then be set up do
    log you in using a predetermined user, if your physical security
    environment is good enough to allow this. Otherwise you get the usual
    username and password prompts.

    You can also have a preferred service, so typing Connect will connect
    to that service, but you can type Connect to choose a different
    one.

    Then there's reverse LAT, for printers etc. Pretty versatile.

    Oh, and most will do all sorts of similar tricks with TCP/IP.

    Be aware that LAT isn't routable, so it's pretty much confined to a
    LAN.



    --
    Alan Adams, from Northamptonshire
    alan.adams@orchard-way.freeserve.co.uk
    http://www.nckc.org.uk/

  8. Re: terminal server for vax?

    Richard wrote:

    > Looking on ebay I see that there are a variety of products called
    > 'DECserver'. So far they are all terminal servers. Is it safe to
    > assume this name was only used for terminal servers?


    I'd not assume anything about eBay posting, but that's just me.

    > Is there any
    > qualitative difference in functionality between the DB25 port style
    > DECservers and the RJ45 port style DECservers?


    I'd tend to stick with DECserver 90-series boxes, or DECserver
    700-series boxes, and -- unless I needed modem control -- I'd not worry
    about the difference between the MMJ connections and the DB25 connections.

    And the pinouts and adapter part numbers and other such for the MMJ
    and DB25 widgets and other common connections are listed in or are
    referenced in the OpenVMS FAQ.

    > My motivation here is that I have a collection of vintage serial
    > terminals. I would like to have a multiplicity of them hooked to a
    > single machine that could allow some sort of text-based timesharing.


    That's what LAT does.

    > The options I have are:
    > - PDP 11/03 running RT-11
    > Seems too underpowered. AFAIK RT-11 just allows one "console"
    > session and the other serial ports are just treated as output
    > devices (like to an LA-120).


    You can potentially use reverse LAT, and have a terminal server
    connected "the other way 'round", and have it set up to accept incoming
    connections. This was a common technique for connection the serial
    consoles on many of the VAX and Alpha servers. (And any Integrity
    server that somebody forgot to order the MP card for. :-)

    > - VAXserver 4000/300
    > It should be able to handle it, but as you mention its not the
    > kind of machine that was typically wired up with serial ports
    > and used as a timesharing machine. You mentioned about the
    > multi-user license; would the OpenVMS hobbyist license allow
    > multiple logins?


    Off hand, I don't know that. You should be able to tell that with a
    SHOW LICENSE/CHARGE command; the box should show up as being capable of
    timesharing, or capable of file and application services. The former or
    one of the other types of licenses likely indicates that you have or can
    have full timesharing licenses, while if only the (Type B) F&A license
    is permitted, that's the usual (and restricted) server license.

    > Can the DECserver models provide LAT connectivity, or do you need to
    > get a different box for that? I am under the impression that VMS has
    > LAT support builtin on the host side.


    All of the DIGITAL DECserver models I am aware of provide LAT, and
    OpenVMS has LAT built in. Very old OpenVMS VAX releases had rather
    limited LAT support, but anything from about V6.0 forward has reasonably
    full support.

    Newer DECserver terminal servers -- and "newer" being a very relative
    term here -- can also provide IP connectivity.


    > I looked at the DECserver 90 manual which is what gave me the idea for
    > buying some sort of terminal connectivity to my VAX. They mention
    > installation of software in the manual, but I didn't drill deep enough
    > to know if this was software installed on the 90 itself or on a host.


    Some of the terminal servers require downloadable software.

    The DECserver 100, 200 and 250 series, for instance, do require the
    terminal server's software be downloaded into the box using DECnet MOP.

    Don't confuse the fact that the terminal server is registered in the
    DECnet database for the MOP download with the fact that the terminal
    server itself does not use DECnet. The maintenance protocols are used
    for the initial download and (if required) for an upline dump should the
    box crash (and be configured to upload said dump), but the network
    protocol used is LAT and is not DECnet.

    With OpenVMS V6.2 and later, you can use LANCP to control and to
    provide any MOP download required for your terminal server, or with that
    OpenVMS release and with other releases you can use either DECnet Phase
    IV MOP or DECnet-Plus MOP for that task.

    The lower-end DECserver 90 series models might have had this
    requirement, as well -- the models I have used had built-in firmware.

    > Is there some sort of host software that must be installed in order
    > to service these serial ports via the terminal server as distinct login
    > sessions? I am not familiar with how VMS handles this and while my VAX
    > has OpenVMS installed, I am a complete newbie to VMS :-).


    OpenVMS has the LAT part, and once the terminal server is
    bootstrapped it too has LAT capabilities. What the terminal server
    requires depends on which terminal server is chosen.
    >
    > I know in *nix they did something like associate the login program
    > with the serial device. So you would get a login by pressing RETURN
    > on the terminal.


    On OpenVMS, unsolicited input on an unallocated terminal line fires
    up the LOGINOUT image.

    If you connect "odd" devices onto a serial line, and particularly
    devices that are likely to generate what could be construed as
    unsolicited input up the serial line as the device conducts its normal
    business, you will likely want to disable this automatic login mechanism
    using the techniques discussed in the OpenVMS FAQ.

    > I vaguely recall using a LAT server in 1989 to which
    > you had to request connection to a particular host and then you got a
    > telnet type login session. ISTR that you could have the terminal
    > connected to multiple hosts via the LAT and could switch back and
    > forth.


    You can have the terminal directly connect to a specified LAT
    service, or you can have the terminal allowed to choose which service
    will be the target. This is a configuration option in the terminal
    server, and it can be set up on the particular serial port of the
    terminal server.

    > Was specific terminal support required for this to work?


    No.

    If you wanted multiple parallel sessions for one terminal on one
    serial line, then you did need the SSU software and/or support in the
    terminal server, and you did need a terminal with SSU support. This as
    distinct from disconnecting from one host and reconnecting to another --
    SSU and an SSU-capable terminal provided a form of a serial line mux.

    > I only did this with a VT220, so I don't know if it was exploiting
    > something that was present only in DEC terminals.


    For standard LAT operations and connections, it was not.

    >> Various of the DIGITAL System and Options Catalog (SOC) entries for
    >> many of these old systems remain available in the left navigation at the
    >> URL .

    >
    > I didn't find anything there on the DECserver 90, 700. Do you know
    > specifically if its there and I just missed it?


    Those are likely too new. The DECserver product line was sold off to
    the organization that eventually became the DNPG (Digital Network
    Products Group) folks some eons ago. You'll only find the older of the
    DECserver boxes listed in the SOC. The folks over at
    likely have details on the newer giblets.




  9. Re: terminal server for vax?

    In article ,
    kaplow_r@encompasserve.org.mars (Bob Kaplow) writes:
    > In article , legalize+jeeves@mail.xmission.com (Richard) writes:
    >> Looking on ebay I see that there are a variety of products called
    >> 'DECserver'. So far they are all terminal servers. Is it safe to
    >> assume this name was only used for terminal servers? Is there any
    >> qualitative difference in functionality between the DB25 port style
    >> DECservers and the RJ45 port style DECservers?

    >
    > Some of the DB25 terminal servers have modem control. You can't do it with
    > an RJ-45.


    Why? I have lots ox boxes that use RJ45 serial conectors that do
    modem control. Or were you thinking MMJ with only 5 signals?

    > But you could pack more RJ-45 (or MMJ on other models) connectors
    > into less space than the equivalent number of DB25 connectors.
    >


    bill

    --
    Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
    bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
    University of Scranton |
    Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include

  10. Re: terminal server for vax?

    [Please do not mail me a copy of your followup]

    Hoff Hoffman spake the secret code
    thusly:

    >Richard wrote:
    >
    >> Looking on ebay I see that there are a variety of products called
    >> 'DECserver'. So far they are all terminal servers. Is it safe to
    >> assume this name was only used for terminal servers?

    >
    > I'd not assume anything about eBay posting, but that's just me.


    Actually I was referring to what DEC named things. I know better than
    to trust ebay listings to be wholly accurate .

    >> Is there any
    >> qualitative difference in functionality between the DB25 port style
    >> DECservers and the RJ45 port style DECservers?

    >
    > I'd tend to stick with DECserver 90-series boxes, or DECserver
    >700-series boxes, and -- unless I needed modem control -- I'd not worry
    >about the difference between the MMJ connections and the DB25 connections.


    Now that I've browsed more items on ebay, I see that there are three
    port types: DB25, RJ45 and MMJ. I also see that there are standalone
    boxes and 8 port units that plug into a backplane (DECserver 90 Hub, I
    think its called). Is the only difference between these the capacity,
    with the hub providing a range of capacity (and options since you can
    put more than terminal server boxes in the backplane)?

    >> The options I have are:
    >> - PDP 11/03 running RT-11
    >> Seems too underpowered. AFAIK RT-11 just allows one "console"
    >> session and the other serial ports are just treated as output
    >> devices (like to an LA-120).

    >
    > You can potentially use reverse LAT, and have a terminal server
    >connected "the other way 'round", and have it set up to accept incoming
    >connections.


    You mean that I would connect the console port to the terminal server
    and then by initiating something on the shell of a host connect
    through the terminal server to the console port of the 11/03 like it
    was a "host" on the network? That would be handy! is this simply a
    matter of configurin the port on the terminal server?

    >> - VAXserver 4000/300 [...]

    >
    > Off hand, I don't know that. You should be able to tell that with a
    >SHOW LICENSE/CHARGE command; [...]


    OK, I'll check that next time I power up the VAX.

    > All of the DIGITAL DECserver models I am aware of provide LAT, and
    >OpenVMS has LAT built in. Very old OpenVMS VAX releases had rather
    >limited LAT support, but anything from about V6.0 forward has reasonably
    >full support.


    I think I've got 5.3 on the VAX right now, but I had plans to upgrade
    it to the latest version with a hobbyist license (all the existing
    licenses are expired anyway).

    > Newer DECserver terminal servers -- and "newer" being a very relative
    >term here -- can also provide IP connectivity.


    Any guide for which models support IP connectivity?

    Thanks for all the information, this is very encouraging!
    --
    "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ:

    Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty


  11. Re: terminal server for vax?

    In article , Richard <> wrote:
    >[Please do not mail me a copy of your followup]
    >
    >In article you write:
    >>
    >> For VAX 4000 series boxes in that same vintage, likely one of the
    >>DECserver series terminal servers was chosen. Examples include the
    >>DECserver 90 series, or DECserver 700 series, or other similar options.

    >
    >Looking on ebay I see that there are a variety of products called
    >'DECserver'. So far they are all terminal servers. Is it safe to
    >assume this name was only used for terminal servers? Is there any
    >qualitative difference in functionality between the DB25 port style
    >DECservers and the RJ45 port style DECservers?
    >
    >My motivation here is that I have a collection of vintage serial
    >terminals. I would like to have a multiplicity of them hooked to a
    >single machine that could allow some sort of text-based timesharing.
    >
    >The options I have are:
    > - PDP 11/03 running RT-11
    > Seems too underpowered. AFAIK RT-11 just allows one "console"
    > session and the other serial ports are just treated as output
    > devices (like to an LA-120).


    Actually, the RT11 could use any console device you'd like.
    If you Sysgen'd in multiterminal support you could switch to another tty
    line. Kind of like using the ms-dos mode command to switch the con:
    device to a com port... (I remember using that a loooong time ago --
    but forgot the syntax).

    Multi-user basic would also use all the terminals as a kind of
    time-share environment with multiple basic environments on the different
    terminals. Did all of the above with a PDT11/150 back in my old Field
    Service days.

    >
    > - VAXserver 4000/300
    > It should be able to handle it, but as you mention its not the
    > kind of machine that was typically wired up with serial ports
    > and used as a timesharing machine. You mentioned about the
    > multi-user license; would the OpenVMS hobbyist license allow
    > multiple logins?


    I know the Vaxstations do.
    >
    > - plain old PC w/DigiBoard and SIMH
    > I'd have to buy the digiboard ($$$) and even then I don't know
    > how well SIMH would be able to use those serial ports provided
    > by the DigiBoard. On the other hand, if this works I could
    > run RSTS/E which is the timesharing environment I used in the
    > 1978-1980 time frame.


    Interesting idea. I've got a quad ports card down stairs... Could do
    something like that using the 4 serial ports under FreeBSD...
    Simh would need a way to attach the tty ports to a fake DZ11 type thing.

    >
    >> There were certainly various serial communications options for the
    >>Q-bus (including the CXY series), but these tended to be options that
    >>were relatively discouraged in favor of connecting the terminal(s) into
    >>multiple hosts via LAT or IP; via the network.

    >
    >Can the DECserver models provide LAT connectivity, or do you need to
    >get a different box for that? I am under the impression that VMS has
    >LAT support builtin on the host side.
    >
    >I looked at the DECserver 90 manual which is what gave me the idea for
    >buying some sort of terminal connectivity to my VAX. They mention
    >installation of software in the manual, but I didn't drill deep enough
    >to know if this was software installed on the 90 itself or on a host.
    >Is there some sort of host software that must be installed in order
    >to service these serial ports via the terminal server as distinct login
    >sessions? I am not familiar with how VMS handles this and while my VAX
    >has OpenVMS installed, I am a complete newbie to VMS :-).
    >
    >I know in *nix they did something like associate the login program
    >with the serial device. So you would get a login by pressing RETURN
    >on the terminal. I vaguely recall using a LAT server in 1989 to which
    >you had to request connection to a particular host and then you got a
    >telnet type login session. ISTR that you could have the terminal
    >connected to multiple hosts via the LAT and could switch back and
    >forth. Was specific terminal support required for this to work? I
    >only did this with a VT220, so I don't know if it was exploiting
    >something that was present only in DEC terminals.
    >
    >> Various of the DIGITAL System and Options Catalog (SOC) entries for
    >>many of these old systems remain available in the left navigation at the
    >>URL .

    >
    >I didn't find anything there on the DECserver 90, 700. Do you know
    >specifically if its there and I just missed it?
    >
    >Thanks!
    >--
    >"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ:
    >
    > Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty
    >



    Bill
    --
    --
    d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now!
    pechter-at-ureachtechnologies.com

  12. Re: terminal server for vax?

    Richard wrote:

    > Actually I was referring to what DEC named things. I know better than
    > to trust ebay listings to be wholly accurate .


    Every "DECserver" I've seen is a terminal server, but there are a
    number of "DECgizmo" devices around, and some of these can have very
    similar names. And obviously what can get posted on eBay (or reported
    here, for that matter) can be incorrect or ambiguous. Unfortunately.

    > Now that I've browsed more items on ebay, I see that there are three
    > port types: DB25, RJ45 and MMJ.


    I've seen very little DIGITAL iron with a RJ45 for asynchronous
    serial communications -- there were probably a few, but I don't recall
    any off-hand. The classic DECconnect parts were the DB9 (beware: two
    different pinouts; see the OpenVMS FAQ), the classic DB25 (for serial on
    older systems, and modem control can be particularly entertaining), and
    the MMJ. The RJ45 was mostly used with and for NICs, as is obviously
    still the case -- not usually for asynchronous serial comms.

    As mentioned, the MMJ doesn't have the modem control signals in its
    classic wiring and pinout.

    Pinouts and diagrams and such for many of these widgets are, as was
    mentioned, in the OpenVMS FAQ.

    > I also see that there are standalone
    > boxes and 8 port units that plug into a backplane (DECserver 90 Hub, I
    > think its called). Is the only difference between these the capacity,
    > with the hub providing a range of capacity (and options since you can
    > put more than terminal server boxes in the backplane)?


    The DEChub series provided power, mounting and other such. You'd
    need the backplane and the particular device(s) to be installed into it.

    > You mean that I would connect the console port to the terminal server
    > and then by initiating something on the shell of a host connect
    > through the terminal server to the console port of the 11/03 like it
    > was a "host" on the network? That would be handy! is this simply a
    > matter of configurin the port on the terminal server?


    Yes. Configure the port speeds and feeds appropriate for the host,
    and set it up as a service within the terminal server.

    > Any guide for which models support IP connectivity?


    Boxes that post-date the DECserver 300 series, IIRC, which would be
    the DECserver 90 and the DECserver 700, among others. (The further back
    you go into the series, the tougher it can get to maintain them, and,
    relatively speaking, the less capable the devices are.)

  13. Re: terminal server for vax?

    [Please do not mail me a copy of your followup]

    Hoff Hoffman spake the secret code
    thusly:

    > Every "DECserver" I've seen is a terminal server, but there are a
    >number of "DECgizmo" devices around, and some of these can have very
    >similar names.


    Yes, I wouldn't want to confuse "DECserver" with "VAXserver" as these
    are two very different things! :-)

    > I've seen very little DIGITAL iron with a RJ45 for asynchronous
    >serial communications -- there were probably a few, but I don't recall
    >any off-hand.


    Well, when I was looking at the DECserver 90M manual I found on
    archive.org, it described RJ45 connectors and their pinouts. It was
    most definately not MMJ.

    However, while looking at pictures of units on ebay, its clear that
    some are MMJ, some are RJ45 and some are DB25.

    >The classic DECconnect parts were the DB9 [...]


    I haven't seen any pictures yet of a terminal server with DB9 style
    ports on the back. There is a DB9 style port on the back of all of
    these DECserver units, but it is a single port, presumably for a
    maintenance console type thing, and not used on the ports for the
    individual terminals.

    >[...] The RJ45 was mostly used with and for NICs, as is obviously
    >still the case -- not usually for asynchronous serial comms.


    I've seen it used for serial devices before, but not on DEC equipment
    until now.
    --
    "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ:

    Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty


  14. Re: terminal server for vax?

    In message <4aqgcuFtspviU2@individual.net>
    bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:

    > In article ,
    > kaplow_r@encompasserve.org.mars (Bob Kaplow) writes:
    >> In article ,
    >> legalize+jeeves@mail.xmission.com (Richard) writes:
    >>> Looking on ebay I see that there are a variety of products called
    >>> 'DECserver'. So far they are all terminal servers. Is it safe to
    >>> assume this name was only used for terminal servers? Is there any
    >>> qualitative difference in functionality between the DB25 port style
    >>> DECservers and the RJ45 port style DECservers?

    >>
    >> Some of the DB25 terminal servers have modem control. You can't do it with
    >> an RJ-45.

    >
    > Why? I have lots ox boxes that use RJ45 serial conectors that do
    > modem control. Or were you thinking MMJ with only 5 signals?


    Full modem control requires 8 signals. The model control on RJ45 is
    restricted, but works in most cases. You lose Ring Indicator, and one
    handshake pair.



    --
    Alan Adams, from Northamptonshire
    alan.adams@orchard-way.freeserve.co.uk
    http://www.nckc.org.uk/

  15. Re: terminal server for vax?

    [Please do not mail me a copy of your followup]

    Alan Adams spake the secret code
    <62e3281b4e.Alan.Adams@orchard-way.freeserve.co.uk> thusly:

    >Full modem control requires 8 signals. The model control on RJ45 is
    >restricted, but works in most cases. You lose Ring Indicator, and one
    >handshake pair.


    What is "full modem control"? I read through the interesting and long
    article on modems on wikipedia, but it didn't mention this anywhere.
    --
    "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ:

    Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty


  16. Re: terminal server for vax?

    DECserver 100 and 200MC were DB25 connectors. There was another DS200
    variant that had 50-pin (I think) telco jacks that used a special cable
    and breakout box to provide MMJ ports. These units are LAT only, and
    only have an AUI "thickwire" connection for ethernet so you'll need a
    media convertor or 10Base-T microtransciever.

    DECserver 250 had four DB25 serial and two line printer parallel
    connectors. I'm pretty sure this unit is LAT only. Also AUI only if I
    remember right.

    DECserver 300 had sixteen MMJ connectors and had limited TCPIP support
    in addition to LAT. Thinwire (BNC) or AUI selectable, I think.

    DECserver 700-08 had eight DB25 ports with full modem control. The
    700-16 had sixteen RJ45 ports with partial modem control. Theses units
    support either base DECserver software with LAT and limited TCPIP
    support, or the NAS software which provides more capable support all
    around, but was licensed and is now hard to get. Some units came with
    internal flash for the load software; on Ebay these are the ones going
    for a fair amount of cash still. 10Base-T or AUI connectors,
    switchable.

    The DECserver 90M had 8 RJ45 ports of the same type as the DECserver
    700-16. They support NAS software with LAT and TCPIP; they may also
    have base DECserver software available; don't recall. Nearly every one
    of these I've seen has been flash bootable, but they were orderable
    without flash so be aware. These have held on to a high resale value.
    If you don't have a DEChub 90, you will need a power supply; the power
    supplies cost quite a bit in the aftermarket so get one with the unit
    if you are buying used. 10Base-T and thinwire (BNC) connectors
    available, plus the hub uplink, autoselected.

    DECserver 90TL had eight RJ45 ports but different from the 90M; same
    pinout but I think the flow control (and speed) were less capable. Not
    NAS capable, uses the base DECserver software like the 700s can, and
    also needs an external power supply if you are not using a DEChub 90.
    Thinwire ethernet, and I think it also had 10Base-T and of course the
    hub uplink, autoselected.

    DECserver 90L and 90L+ had eight MMJ ports. These units boot from
    their own internal flash memory and do NOT support TCPIP. Only a
    thinwire connection is provided for ethernet, plus the hub uplink; no
    10Base-T. The LAT implementation is very limited and configurable only
    via a menu interface; in many ways these are less capable than the much
    older DECserver 200 units, but are useful when you can't have a load
    host for the software and only need LAT. I don't think you can use one
    of these as a remote console access device as some have described in
    other posts. Same caveats about power supplies as other DECserver 90
    units.

    Best bets: 90M with flash unless you need full modem control, then a
    700-08. Flash boot can be very slow on some units (a 90M with 1M flash
    can take 4-5 minutes), but having the flash means the units will boot
    without a specially configured load host being available.


  17. Re: terminal server for vax?

    Richard wrote:

    > Alan Adams spake the secret code
    > <62e3281b4e.Alan.Adams@orchard-way.freeserve.co.uk> thusly:
    >
    >> Full modem control requires 8 signals. The model control on RJ45 is
    >> restricted, but works in most cases. You lose Ring Indicator, and one
    >> handshake pair.

    >
    > What is "full modem control"? I read through the interesting and long
    > article on modems on wikipedia, but it didn't mention this anywhere.


    Probably not the answer you expected, but it's been my experience
    that (working) full modem control is somewhat difficult to achieve and
    it takes more wires, while limited modem control is rather more
    feasible, easier to get it to work, and it takes fewer wires. I much
    prefer using limited modem control, when I'm stuck wiring these sorts of
    devices -- obviously.

    One relevant URL:

    http://h71000.www7.hp.com/wizard/wiz_0300.html

    The OpenVMS System Manager's Essentials Manual also has relevant
    information, and a recent edition is located here:

    http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/82FINA...a-pv5mj-tk.PDF

    There are some detailed signal specifications around for modems, if
    you really know how the signal transitions work (or don't work) with modems.

  18. Re: terminal server for vax?

    In message
    legalize+jeeves@mail.xmission.com (Richard) wrote:

    > [Please do not mail me a copy of your followup]
    >
    > Alan Adams spake the secret code
    > <62e3281b4e.Alan.Adams@orchard-way.freeserve.co.uk> thusly:
    >
    >>Full modem control requires 8 signals. The model control on RJ45 is
    >>restricted, but works in most cases. You lose Ring Indicator, and one
    >>handshake pair.

    >
    > What is "full modem control"? I read through the interesting and long
    > article on modems on wikipedia, but it didn't mention this anywhere.


    Don't have documents to hand, but from memory to control an old-style
    modem you need Ring Indicator, so the computer can tell the modem to
    answer the phone (autoanswer makes this redundant), Data Set Ready +
    Data Terminal Ready, so the modems at each end can tell the hosts that
    the other end of the link is powered up, and Clear to Send+Ready to
    Send, for flow control, originally one byte at at time.

    These 5, plus the data each way, signal ground and chassis ground,
    require more than the 8 connections of an RJ45. The RJ45 only has
    CTS/RTS, but with modern equipment, that's enough.

    To get a port expecting a modem to operate without a modem present it
    was usual to connect pin 4 to 5 (CTS-RTS), and 6 to 8 to 20 (RI, DSR,
    DTR) and just use 2,3 and 7.

    Incidentally DEC's RJ45 and MMJ carry RS423 signals, not RS232 - the
    difference is the voltages and currents, and the separate grounds for
    the two directions. Over reasonable cable lengths, the two will
    interconnect. Strictly, RS232 only does 50 feet, RS423 much more.

    Alan

    --
    Alan Adams, from Northamptonshire
    alan.adams@orchard-way.freeserve.co.uk
    http://www.nckc.org.uk/

  19. Re: terminal server for vax?

    In article ,
    Alan Adams writes:
    > In message
    > legalize+jeeves@mail.xmission.com (Richard) wrote:
    >
    >> [Please do not mail me a copy of your followup]
    >>
    >> Alan Adams spake the secret code
    >> <62e3281b4e.Alan.Adams@orchard-way.freeserve.co.uk> thusly:
    >>
    >>>Full modem control requires 8 signals. The model control on RJ45 is
    >>>restricted, but works in most cases. You lose Ring Indicator, and one
    >>>handshake pair.

    >>
    >> What is "full modem control"? I read through the interesting and long
    >> article on modems on wikipedia, but it didn't mention this anywhere.

    >
    > Don't have documents to hand, but from memory to control an old-style
    > modem you need Ring Indicator, so the computer can tell the modem to
    > answer the phone (autoanswer makes this redundant), Data Set Ready +
    > Data Terminal Ready, so the modems at each end can tell the hosts that
    > the other end of the link is powered up, and Clear to Send+Ready to
    > Send, for flow control, originally one byte at at time.
    >
    > These 5, plus the data each way, signal ground and chassis ground,
    > require more than the 8 connections of an RJ45. The RJ45 only has
    > CTS/RTS, but with modern equipment, that's enough.


    No, MMJ only has CTS/RTS. The only one missing from any of my RJ45
    serial connectors is Ring ndicator and, as you already stated, this
    was made un-necessary by AutoAnswer. Add to this the fact that Frame
    Ground is also not usually needed (or used for anything) the an RJ45
    has more than enough pins for full modem control with current tech-
    nology modem systems. The big question being, how much longer will
    we even bother using dial-up modem systems anyway?


    >
    > To get a port expecting a modem to operate without a modem present it
    > was usual to connect pin 4 to 5 (CTS-RTS), and 6 to 8 to 20 (RI, DSR,
    > DTR) and just use 2,3 and 7.
    >
    > Incidentally DEC's RJ45 and MMJ carry RS423 signals, not RS232 - the


    Oh, why didn't you say in the first place that the RJ45s were just
    a different connector on DECConnect? Now it makes more sense. But,
    remember that while MMJ (with only 6 wires) was a DEC invention, lots
    of people did RJ45 serial ports and apparently, DEC was the only one
    who got it wrong!

    > difference is the voltages and currents, and the separate grounds for
    > the two directions. Over reasonable cable lengths, the two will
    > interconnect. Strictly, RS232 only does 50 feet, RS423 much more.



    bill

    --
    Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
    bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
    University of Scranton |
    Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include

  20. Re: terminal server for vax?

    Bill Gunshannon wrote:
    >
    > In article ,
    > Alan Adams writes:
    > > [snip]
    > > These 5, plus the data each way, signal ground and chassis ground,
    > > require more than the 8 connections of an RJ45. The RJ45 only has
    > > CTS/RTS, but with modern equipment, that's enough.

    >
    > No, MMJ only has CTS/RTS.


    Well, actually 6-wire MMJs carry Tx/Rx data +/- which accounts for four
    conductors, DSR and DTR which totals six.

    The "modem control" terminal servers with RJ45s added CTS and RTS so
    within limits hardware flow control was enabled.

    > The only one missing from any of my RJ45
    > serial connectors is Ring ndicator and, as you already stated, this
    > was made un-necessary by AutoAnswer. Add to this the fact that Frame
    > Ground is also not usually needed (or used for anything)...


    ....in unshielded cables...

    > the an RJ45
    > has more than enough pins for full modem control with current tech-
    > nology modem systems. The big question being, how much longer will
    > we even bother using dial-up modem systems anyway?


    Until those farms 40 miles west of here and 30+ miles from the nearest
    town or telco CO become fibre-connected, we'll still need dial-ups.
    Suburban sprawl won't solve all of those issues.

    --
    David J Dachtera
    dba DJE Systems
    http://www.djesys.com/

    Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page
    http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/

    Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page:
    http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/

    Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page:
    http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/

    Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page:
    http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast