The Minimum You Need to Know to Be an OpenVMS Application Developer - DEC

This is a discussion on The Minimum You Need to Know to Be an OpenVMS Application Developer - DEC ; Marc Schlensog wrote: > On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 22:54:01 -0500 > Just for interest: What would be a viable zero-/lowcost alternative > that covers the same needs as mySQL does? VMS: good question Windows & Linux: PostgreSQL and Firebird ...

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Thread: The Minimum You Need to Know to Be an OpenVMS Application Developer

  1. Re: The Minimum You Need to Know to Be an OpenVMS Application Developer

    Marc Schlensog wrote:
    > On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 22:54:01 -0500
    > Just for interest: What would be a viable zero-/lowcost alternative
    > that covers the same needs as mySQL does?


    VMS: good question

    Windows & Linux: PostgreSQL and Firebird

    Arne

  2. Re: The Minimum You Need to Know to Be an OpenVMS Application Developer

    Well Arne,

    You clearly love MySQL.

    However, it is a toy database for toy applications - and explain
    exactly how MySQL is *not* "any other ISAM file library".

    Until recently (and maybe still), one did not have to go far into the
    manual to realise that the developers were totally clueless as to the
    requirements of a database per se, and of a relational database in
    particular.

    Faulty understanding of the issues involved led to fundamentally flawed
    product. the fact that InnoBase even exists, is, well, proof by
    existence, that the original and current MySQL is seroiusly flawed.

    And I am sorry, the notion that dat integrity is the responsibility of
    the application, as the developers of MySQL so fondly recounted in the
    manuals says exactly everything you need to know about their level of
    understanding of the theory, or for that matter, practice of databases
    in general and relational databases in particular.

    If you want a glorified file system with a toy SQL on top if it for
    non-critical applications - fine, use MySQL. I can conceive of few
    applications with even the most limited data integrity and security
    requirements that would be well served by MySQL.

    Dr. Dweeb


  3. Re: The Minimum You Need to Know to Be an OpenVMS Application Developer

    Apologies to COMP.OS.LINUX.ALPHA

    I do apologise for posting the "ad" about Roland Hughes' new book (which we
    only charge a CC processing fee for offering) on the C.O.L.A. newsgroup.

    In future I will not post anything there, even if the deal IS too good to
    refuse.

    If you need to see good Alpha deals, try COMP.OS.VMS and COMP.SYS.DEC


    Goo'bye C.O.L.A !



    --

    David B Turner
    Island Computers US Corp
    2700 Gregory St, Suite 180
    Savannah GA 31404
    Tel: 912 447 6622 X201
    Cell: 912 447 6622 X252
    Fax: 912 201 0402
    Email: dbturner@icusc.com
    Web: http://www.islandco.com
    =====================================
    All orders are subject to the following terms and conditions
    of sale. These should be read before ordering.
    http://www.islandco.com/warranty.html

    "Christopher Browne" wrote in message
    news:87r74lc3dy.fsf@wolfe.cbbrowne.com...
    > Oops! "David J. Dachtera" was seen

    spray-painting on a wall:
    > > Christopher Browne wrote:
    > >>
    > >> Clinging to sanity, "toby" mumbled into her

    beard:
    > >> > davidc@montagar.com wrote:
    > >> >> >From the description, this looks like an excellent book for a new
    > >> >> OpenVMS Programmer. Thanks for the effort in putting this bok

    together.
    > >> >
    > >> > It does look interesting. As a hobbyist I wish I could justify the

    $90
    > >> > - but coincidentally my day job is currently building MySQL
    > >> > applications on other operating systems. It's fascinating that MySQL
    > >> > has made it to VMS and is considered a useful component there (too) -
    > >> > whether one approves of MySQL or not ;-)
    > >>
    > >> I have a hard time fathoming how MySQL would be of interest on a
    > >> platform that has a full-fledged ISAM system, RMS, *built into the
    > >> operating system*, but I suppose there are all types out there...

    > >
    > > Indexing and record-level retrieval is only part of the story. RDBMSs do
    > > much more than RMS, including providing an API that tools such as
    > > Datatrieve never had. All-in-1 came close, but is a terrible resource
    > > hog.
    > >
    > > RMS lacks a data dictionary and a query language as well.
    > >
    > > (This from an old AIS, RSTS/E and VMS hand.)

    >
    > The thing is, MySQL is little more than a thin layering of a not
    > terribly consistent SQL "processor" on top of something rather less
    > mature than RMS...
    > --
    > wm(X,Y):-write(X),write('@'),write(Y). wm('cbbrowne','ntlug.org').
    > http://linuxdatabases.info/info/postgresql.html
    > Why are there flotation devices under plane seats instead of
    > parachutes?




  4. Re: The Minimum You Need to Know to Be an OpenVMS Application Developer

    Dr. Dweeb wrote:
    > You clearly love MySQL.


    Not particular. See below.

    > However, it is a toy database for toy applications - and explain
    > exactly how MySQL is *not* "any other ISAM file library".
    >
    > Until recently (and maybe still), one did not have to go far into the
    > manual to realise that the developers were totally clueless as to the
    > requirements of a database per se, and of a relational database in
    > particular.
    >
    > Faulty understanding of the issues involved led to fundamentally flawed
    > product. the fact that InnoBase even exists, is, well, proof by
    > existence, that the original and current MySQL is seroiusly flawed.
    >
    > And I am sorry, the notion that dat integrity is the responsibility of
    > the application, as the developers of MySQL so fondly recounted in the
    > manuals says exactly everything you need to know about their level of
    > understanding of the theory, or for that matter, practice of databases
    > in general and relational databases in particular.
    >
    > If you want a glorified file system with a toy SQL on top if it for
    > non-critical applications - fine, use MySQL. I can conceive of few
    > applications with even the most limited data integrity and security
    > requirements that would be well served by MySQL.


    I defended MySQL because of all the posts similar to this.

    Lots of negative adjectives and bad mouthing may be a good
    thing when selling stuff to managers who does not have a clue,
    but in a technical forum it is not particular impressive.

    And your logic is horrible.

    "the fact that InnoBase even exists, is, well, proof by
    existence, that the original and current MySQL is seroiusly flawed"

    Proof ? Not even an indication !

    The fact that Ford produces the Ekspedition is that an
    indication of that the GT is a bad car ? No - those two
    models serve very different markets !

    Or if you thinks cars and databases are too different.
    Does the existence of Oracle Times Ten indicate that
    Oracle 10g is a bad database ? No - again they complement
    each other by serving different purposes.

    I could probably write 10 to 20 things
    about MySQL that I do not like. But that would be
    based on facts not just a lot of "toy", "flawed" etc..

    And I could find something to complain over in
    all other databases (that I know) as well.

    Arne

  5. Re: The Minimum You Need to Know to Be an OpenVMS Application Developer

    "Dr. Dweeb" wrote:
    >
    > Well Arne,
    >
    > You clearly love MySQL.


    No doubt, is has its uses.

    > However, it is a toy database for toy applications - and explain
    > exactly how MySQL is *not* "any other ISAM file library".


    Is there an RTL that you can link against, ala RMS on RSTS/E? Perhaps an
    ..OLB? Is it integrated into any 3GLs, ala RMS on RSTSE/E, VMS, etc. such
    that a language built-in can be used rather than a call to an external
    routine?

    > Until recently (and maybe still), one did not have to go far into the
    > manual to realise that the developers were totally clueless as to the
    > requirements of a database per se, and of a relational database in
    > particular.
    >
    > Faulty understanding of the issues involved led to fundamentally flawed
    > product. the fact that InnoBase even exists, is, well, proof by
    > existence, that the original and current MySQL is seroiusly flawed.
    >
    > And I am sorry, the notion that dat integrity is the responsibility of
    > the application, as the developers of MySQL so fondly recounted in the
    > manuals says exactly everything you need to know about their level of
    > understanding of the theory, or for that matter, practice of databases
    > in general and relational databases in particular.


    What protection does RMS provide against assigning, for example, the
    content of string field into a quadword integer? ...or the content of an
    unsigned longword to the memory space occupied by a floating point
    field?

    > If you want a glorified file system


    Is there "a glorified file system" underlying or provided with Oracle?
    Seems to me it depends only on the extreme low-level primitives
    underlying ODS, but side-steps enough of it that it can't even handle
    bound volume-sets.

    AFAIK, Oracle provides no file system services outside of itself.

    > with a toy SQL on top if it for
    > non-critical applications - fine, use MySQL. I can conceive of few
    > applications with even the most limited data integrity and security
    > requirements that would be well served by MySQL.


    If sloppy programming practice is the rule of the day, even Oracle won't
    help.

    --
    David J Dachtera
    dba DJE Systems
    http://www.djesys.com/

    Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page
    http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/

    Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page:
    http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/

    Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page:
    http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/

    Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page:
    http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/

  6. Re: The Minimum You Need to Know to Be an OpenVMS Application Developer

    There is now a review of this book at
    http://www.openvms.org/stories.php?s.../04/02/4453076


  7. Re: The Minimum You Need to Know to Be an OpenVMS Application Developer

    "Ian Miller" wrote in message
    news:1144060325.985123.164610@z34g2000cwc.googlegr oups.com...
    > There is now a review of this book at
    > http://www.openvms.org/stories.php?s.../04/02/4453076
    >

    One of the best VMS programming books I've ever come across is "Writing
    VAX/VMS Applications Using Pascal" by Theo de Klerk published in 1991 (BTW,
    my copy is not for sale :-). I learned quite a bit of VMS application theory
    in this book and implemented many of the ideas into BASIC, C and C++. The
    reason I mention this book is that I just received my copy of "The Minimum
    You Need to Know to be an OpenVMS Developer" and it is clearly in the same
    league as the Pascal book. This is a major effort and should be on the
    bookshelf of every beginner through intermediate level OpenVMS application
    developer.

    Just my 2-cents worth.

    Neil Rieck
    Kitchener, Waterloo, Cambridge,
    Ontario, Canada.




  8. Re: The Minimum You Need to Know to Be an OpenVMS Application Developer

    Dr. Dweeb wrote:
    > Well Arne,
    >
    > You clearly love MySQL.
    >
    > However, it is a toy database for toy applications - and explain
    > exactly how MySQL is *not* "any other ISAM file library".


    You should familiarise yourself with versions 4 and 5 of the server
    before go on.

    >
    > Until recently (and maybe still), one did not have to go far into the
    > manual to realise that the developers were totally clueless as to the
    > requirements of a database per se, and of a relational database in
    > particular.
    >
    > Faulty understanding of the issues involved led to fundamentally flawed
    > product. the fact that InnoBase even exists, is, well, proof by
    > existence, that the original and current MySQL is seroiusly flawed.


    MyISAM never claimed to be anything more than it was: fast, reliable,
    but not transactional.

    >
    > And I am sorry, the notion that dat integrity is the responsibility of
    > the application, as the developers of MySQL so fondly recounted in the
    > manuals says exactly everything you need to know about their level of
    > understanding of the theory, or for that matter, practice of databases
    > in general and relational databases in particular.
    >
    > If you want a glorified file system with a toy SQL on top if it for
    > non-critical applications - fine, use MySQL. I can conceive of few
    > applications with even the most limited data integrity and security
    > requirements that would be well served by MySQL.


    Perhaps wider applicability than you suspect:
    http://www.mysql.com/why-mysql/case-studies/

    --Toby

    >
    > Dr. Dweeb



  9. Re: The Minimum You Need to Know to Be an OpenVMS Application Developer

    "toby" wrote in message
    news:1144703149.339176.316470@v46g2000cwv.googlegr oups.com...

    >
    > You should familiarise yourself with versions 4 and 5 of the server
    > before go on.
    >


    Version 5.x adds so many missing features they should have changed the name
    to MySQL+


    >
    > --Toby
    >


    On a related note, in the book "The Minimum You Need to Know to Be an
    OpenVMS Application Developer" in the MySQL chapter there is a full
    introduction page telling OpenVMS people all the reasons why they should be
    using RDB instead. At this point, the author assumes the only reason you are
    still reading is "financial pressures on your project" then shows you how to
    call MySQL and also explains some of the gotchas. For people with bean
    counters to answer to (most of us) a resource like this will immediately pay
    for itself if one can "prove" that a product like MySQL shouldn't be used in
    all circumstances just because it is almost free.

    p.s. there is something cheesy about the "cover page" graphic shown on the
    seller's web site at:
    http://www.islandco.com/theminimum.html

    Don't let this graphic fool you; the actual cover looks much more
    professional and the book's contents are much better. This is the best book
    on OpenVMS application programming that I've seen in the last 15 years
    (since "Writing VAX/VMS Applications Using Pascal" by Theo De Klerk in 1991)
    but if you don't believe me, check out this book review at www.OpenVms.org :
    http://www.openvms.org/stories.php?s.../04/02/4453076

    Neil Rieck
    Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,
    Ontario, Canada.
    http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/lin...l_openvms.html






  10. Re: The Minimum You Need to Know to Be an OpenVMS Application Developer

    Neil Rieck said on 14-4-2006 12:01...

    > Don't let this graphic fool you; the actual cover looks much more
    > professional and the book's contents are much better. This is the best book
    > on OpenVMS application programming that I've seen in the last 15 years
    > (since "Writing VAX/VMS Applications Using Pascal" by Theo De Klerk in 1991)
    > but if you don't believe me, check out this book review at www.OpenVms.org :
    > http://www.openvms.org/stories.php?s.../04/02/4453076


    I completely agree. I had the book delivered from Island to the
    Netherlands, it arrived within one week of my order. I intended to write
    a review, but the reviewer on www.openvms.org beat me to it!

    BTW, those of you lucky enough to attend the VMS boot camp, hold off on
    the purchase until after the camp. You may be surprised...

    /Wilm

  11. Re: The Minimum You Need to Know to Be an OpenVMS Application Developer


    "Wilm Boerhout" wrote in message
    news:443fa1ff$0$4421$ba620dc5@nova.planet.nl...
    > Neil Rieck said on 14-4-2006 12:01...
    >

    [...snip...]
    >
    > I completely agree. I had the book delivered from Island to the
    > Netherlands, it arrived within one week of my order. I intended to write a
    > review, but the reviewer on www.openvms.org beat me to it!
    >


    Funny you mentioned this because my book arrived in Canada after 4 days.
    Books purchased from Amazon dot com usually take 2 weeks.

    >
    > BTW, those of you lucky enough to attend the VMS boot camp, hold off on
    > the purchase until after the camp. You may be surprised...
    >
    > Wilm
    >


    Yesterday (2006.04.13), I received an email from the author telling me he
    has not yet received any book orders from HP, but time still remains for
    this to happen. People not able to attend the boot camp should order the
    book now. The author also told me he is considering another book project on
    "how to use FMS forms using Java" but he will only do this if he sells at
    least 1000 copies of his current book. IMHO if we want to support OpenVMS we
    should support this author. His programming tutorials are an on-ramp to this
    platform.

    #####

    I originally ordered this book with the intention of reading the "MySQL" and
    "RDB" chapters then was going to send the book to a junior OpenVMS
    programmer in a remote office. I now have decided to keep the book as an
    office reference and have instructed the developers in a remote location to
    purchase their own copies on the company dime.

    Neil Rieck
    Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,
    Ontario, Canada.
    http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/lin...l_openvms.html
    http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/lin...vms_demos.html





  12. Re: The Minimum You Need to Know to Be an OpenVMS Application Developer

    The following 3.5 paragraphs are taken from the introduction to chapter #14
    (Oracle-RDB). Publication of this teaser was authorized by the author,
    Roland Hughes.

    ###

    RDB is quite simply the best relational database ever released on the
    OpenVMS platform. This database was originally created by Digital Equipment
    Corporation (DEC) back in the 1980's. It was at least a decade, if not
    multiple decades, ahead of its time. The database is now owned by Oracle
    Corporation but is still the premier fault tolerant cluster aware database.
    RDB stands for Relational Data Base. DEC continued its tradition of plain
    names when it created this product.

    When RDB first came out, it was so far ahead of its time that it eclipsed
    the hardware of its day. The old VAX boxes with RA series drives simply
    didn't have enough horsepower to run the thing well. The I/O speed of the RA
    series disks was slow by just about everybody's standards. They were built
    to be reliable, not fast. People don't think much about hard drives these
    days. The technology has improved to the point that we tend to upgrade long
    before the failure occurs. Back in the day when RA series disk drives
    reigned, a five year MTBF (Mean Time Before Failure) was a lofty goal.

    Security is one of the many selling points for RDB. It uses OpenVMS built-in
    security including accounts and ACL rights identifiers. There is no
    secondary maintenance issue about setting up user accounts inside the
    database. You can assign ACL security at both the database and table level.

    RDB offers complete integration with CDD. When you create a database with
    the DICTIONARY IS REQUIRED clause all entries created or altered in the
    database are automatically kept in sync with the CDD. Having this level of
    integeration >>> [58 pages follow]

    ###

    Once you read the text and try out the examples of chapter #13 (MySQL) and
    chapter #14 (RDB) you will have a really good feeling for the pros and cons
    of these two products. This is just the book I needed since one of my legacy
    OpenVMS systems currently contains 100+ RMS index files and we were
    exploring relational database alternatives. Click the following link to
    order the book.

    http://www.islandco.com/theminimum.html

    Neil Rieck
    Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,
    Ontario, Canada.
    http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/lin...l_openvms.html
    http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/lin...vms_demos.html
    http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/lin...TBA-OpenVMS-AD







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