DEC Keyboard Question - DEC

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  1. DEC Keyboard Question

    I have a couple of questions about DEC/Compaq/HP keyboards. The first
    question may make the second one moot but here goes:

    I have found discussions about various KVM switches and the DEC 108-key
    keybords and most seem to indicate that they do not mix well except for
    a few brands/models. Does anyone know if the Avocent Outlook ES series
    works or doesn't?

    Also, dispite much Googling and Yahooing I have not been able to find
    the difference between the LK46W-XX and LK461-XX keyboards. I know
    they are both 108-key "OpenVMS" style, although I cannot find any
    keyboard layouts. I have also found in various SOC editions where both
    are listed as suitable for AlphaServer class machines. I just wonder
    what the difference was and if it is significant or will either work
    fine with my OpenVMS boxes.

    Thank you for your help.


  2. Re: DEC Keyboard Question

    [Followups set to comp.os.vms since this is about OpenVMS use]

    johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com wrote:
    > I have a couple of questions about DEC/Compaq/HP keyboards. The first
    > question may make the second one moot but here goes:
    >
    > I have found discussions about various KVM switches and the DEC 108-key
    > keybords and most seem to indicate that they do not mix well except for
    > a few brands/models. Does anyone know if the Avocent Outlook ES series
    > works or doesn't?


    Do not know. From what I have been able to determine much of the
    trouble has been from using them with multiple operating systems that
    may put the keyboard in different scan modes, and some KVM switches do
    not remember which scan mode that each host was using to put it back.

    The other issue that affects KVM suitability is if the KVM uses keyboard
    keys to switch sessions. The Belkin model that I have only because it
    was really cheap on sale, and also switched the audio, uses the key that
    is known as "Scroll Lock" on an X86 PC.

    It requires that you press it twice in a time period and then hit up or
    down arrow. Experiments have shown that it passes those some of those
    key strokes through to the host operating system. On the LK4xx series
    keyboard, the key that generates the "Scroll Lock" code is F19, which
    has meaning to the Mozilla application.

    Holding down the Alt key while entering the required string seems to
    send a keystroke sequence that toggles DECWindows-Motif handling of the
    mouse mode, and after switching back to the OpenVMS system, I seem to
    have to usually key in an additional ALT-F19 to toggle it back.

    I have only had this KVM a little while and this is only a hobby system,
    so I do not know if other problems could occur from it's use.

    If this is a production system, I would suggest contacting HP support.

    > Also, dispite much Googling and Yahooing I have not been able to find
    > the difference between the LK46W-XX and LK461-XX keyboards. I know
    > they are both 108-key "OpenVMS" style, although I cannot find any
    > keyboard layouts. I have also found in various SOC editions where both
    > are listed as suitable for AlphaServer class machines. I just wonder
    > what the difference was and if it is significant or will either work
    > fine with my OpenVMS boxes.


    The two keyboards have a similar layout. I not sure that there are any
    functional differences. I am typing on an LK461 right now. I am not
    aware of what the different model number's mean.

    There also appears to be a LK451 model which has in addition to the VMS
    layout, key caps that indicate which keys generate the typical x86 PC
    codes. It also has two more LEDs for Scroll Lock and something else I
    can not remember.

    I have been able to use standard x86 PC keyboards with Alphas to do
    elementary things. They work well enough to get OpenVMS installed or
    upgraded and get the hobby license keys installed. After that, I mainly
    accessed that system from the network.

    -John
    wb8tyw@qsl.network
    Personal Opinion Only

  3. Re: DEC Keyboard Question

    Thanks John. Maybe this will work then. The Avovent KVM has a
    "version" page and when I check it while it is connected to a Win2k
    machine it says the keyboard mode is "2" with a 101/104 key keyboard,
    while when it is connected to the VMS system it is mode "3". This KVM
    uses the "Print Screen" key to switch systems. Currently I have no
    problem switching back and forth between the two using a standard PC
    keyboard, but I really want something more compatible with TPU/EDT/etc
    so I've been looking at the LK46X series. I also use
    telnet/PuTTY/XWindows to access the VMS systems mostly once they are
    set up on the network. I'm hoping the terminal emulator will also work
    with the LK46X keyboards. Looks like experimentation time.
    John H. Reinhardt


  4. Re: DEC Keyboard Question

    johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com wrote:
    > Thanks John. Maybe this will work then. The Avovent KVM has a
    > "version" page and when I check it while it is connected to a Win2k
    > machine it says the keyboard mode is "2" with a 101/104 key keyboard,
    > while when it is connected to the VMS system it is mode "3". This KVM
    > uses the "Print Screen" key to switch systems.


    The "Print Screen/SYS REQ" key is F18 on the LK461, but I do not know if
    it is shifted or not for each function code. I have not used the Print
    Screen on a PC in years, and have never seen an application that used
    the "SYS REQ" key.

    > Currently I have no
    > problem switching back and forth between the two using a standard PC
    > keyboard, but I really want something more compatible with TPU/EDT/etc
    > so I've been looking at the LK46X series. I also use
    > telnet/PuTTY/XWindows to access the VMS systems mostly once they are
    > set up on the network. I'm hoping the terminal emulator will also work
    > with the LK46X keyboards. Looks like experimentation time.


    Windows 2000/98/XP appears to work with the LK46x in my limited
    experiments. Most of the labeled keys work as expected, and I do not
    remember when the last time I needed to use the unlabeled functions on a PC.

    It also appears that in my limited tests that the Pathworks 32 Powerterm
    terminal emulator also recognized the additional LK keys that I tried.
    I have not tried other terminal emulators, and I did not do a
    comprehensive test.

    An estimate of how the keys may work on a Windows PC can be found at the
    following links:

    http://www.encompasserve.org/DECUSer...tes/VMS/3141.8

    http://www.encompasserve.org/DECUSer...tes/VMS/3141.9

    It also appears that when the Left Alt F19 changes the Motif mouse mode,
    only the Left Alt F19 changes it back. The same for using the Right Alt
    key.

    Let us know how your experimentation goes.

    -John
    wb8tyw@qsl.network
    Personal Opinion Only

  5. Re: DEC Keyboard Question

    "John E. Malmberg" wrote:
    > it is shifted or not for each function code. I have not used the Print
    > Screen on a PC in years, and have never seen an application that used
    > the "SYS REQ" key.


    SYS REQ would be a 3270 feature, probably used by 3270 terminal
    emulators running on DOS back then.

  6. Re: DEC Keyboard Question

    johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com wrote:
    > I have a couple of questions about DEC/Compaq/HP keyboards. The first
    > question may make the second one moot but here goes:
    >
    > I have found discussions about various KVM switches and the DEC 108-key
    > keybords and most seem to indicate that they do not mix well except for
    > a few brands/models. Does anyone know if the Avocent Outlook ES series
    > works or doesn't?


    I was the instigator of one of those discussions, from Sept.2003. :-)

    I don't know specifically about the Outlook ES, but when I queried
    Avocent's technical support that Fall, the answer I got back was,

    "While our switches do support mode 3 keyboard, it is
    currently only in the 101/102 keyboard layout. The
    additional keys would not pass through."

    I got similar negative responses from Adder, Linksys and Belkin.
    I didn't expect anything different from Belkin, but Adder had a
    nice little switch I would've liked to buy...too bad...

    The other piece of information I've gleaned from my research is
    that essentially all of the switches put the physical keyboard
    into mode 2, then translate to/from mode 3 for the VMS connection.

    Apparently Raritan does the translation with a per-system-connection
    adapter (Alan, correct me if I'm wrong; I don't have any personal
    experience with Raritan).

    Rose does the translation in the switch if you get a model that
    supports this: "ServeView +" / "ServeView Pro" do, as well as
    their more expensive UltraView series.

    Christoph Gartmann has noted that even with the ServeView, you
    may need to (temporarily?) connect a/the keyboard directly to
    the Alpha system on reboot to get the full set of keys recognized.
    Again, I don't have personal experience with the ServeView...
    although I'm trying to find one I like on eBay...

    > Also, dispite much Googling and Yahooing I have not been able to find
    > the difference between the LK46W-XX and LK461-XX keyboards. I know
    > they are both 108-key "OpenVMS" style, although I cannot find any
    > keyboard layouts. I have also found in various SOC editions where both
    > are listed as suitable for AlphaServer class machines. I just wonder
    > what the difference was and if it is significant or will either work
    > fine with my OpenVMS boxes.


    As others have said, all the LK46y-xx keyboards (at least the US
    versions) have the same key layout and are all compatible with a
    standard PS/2 keyboard connection. IIRC, the LK46W-xx is white.
    I have an LK461-A2 (beige) at work and an LK462-A2 (black) at home.
    The new LK463-xx has a USB connector, plus a USB-PS/2 adapter, so
    it can be used with both Alphas (and older PCs), and with new PCs
    and (presumably) Integrity (IA64) servers. The only difference
    I've noticed between the various models is that the newer ones feel
    cheaper/have poorer action. :-(

    Regards, Ken
    --
    I don't speak for Intel, Intel doesn't speak for me...

    Ken Fairfield
    D1C Automation VMS System Support
    who: kenneth dot h dot fairfield
    where: intel dot com


  7. Re: DEC Keyboard Question


    Ken Fairfield wrote:

    > I was the instigator of one of those discussions, from Sept.2003. :-)
    >


    Yes, I remember the name.

    > I don't know specifically about the Outlook ES, but when I queried
    > Avocent's technical support that Fall, the answer I got back was,
    >
    > "While our switches do support mode 3 keyboard, it is
    > currently only in the 101/102 keyboard layout. The
    > additional keys would not pass through."


    That is very bad news.

    >
    > I got similar negative responses from Adder, Linksys and Belkin.
    > I didn't expect anything different from Belkin, but Adder had a
    > nice little switch I would've liked to buy...too bad...


    *sigh*

    >
    > As others have said, all the LK46y-xx keyboards (at least the US
    > versions) have the same key layout and are all compatible with a
    > standard PS/2 keyboard connection. IIRC, the LK46W-xx is white.
    > I have an LK461-A2 (beige) at work and an LK462-A2 (black) at home.
    > The new LK463-xx has a USB connector, plus a USB-PS/2 adapter, so
    > it can be used with both Alphas (and older PCs), and with new PCs
    > and (presumably) Integrity (IA64) servers. The only difference
    > I've noticed between the various models is that the newer ones feel
    > cheaper/have poorer action. :-(
    >
    > Regards, Ken


    After some additional thought I had come to the conclusion that the
    LK461's were the beige and the "W's" were white. I didn't know about
    the black ones and the USB versions. The LK451's that John Malmberg
    mentioned seem to be in short supply. I have found none listed on Ebay
    and only one DEC reseller in the States that lists them in inventory (
    http://www.computertradingpost.com/webpages/rjr.htm ). I haven't had a
    chance to call and get the price. They are not new, but reconditioned.

    I think I will still aquire one of these and try things out, but I'm
    not going to have any great expectations. Thanks for everyone's input.
    John H. Reinhardt


  8. Re: DEC Keyboard Question

    Ken Fairfield wrote:

    >
    > I don't know specifically about the Outlook ES, but when I queried
    > Avocent's technical support that Fall, the answer I got back was,
    >
    > "While our switches do support mode 3 keyboard, it is
    > currently only in the 101/102 keyboard layout. The
    > additional keys would not pass through."
    >
    > I got similar negative responses from Adder, Linksys and Belkin.
    > I didn't expect anything different from Belkin, but Adder had a
    > nice little switch I would've liked to buy...too bad...


    A google search shows that there are several mode 3 keyboards available
    for x86 PC devices from several vendors.

    > The other piece of information I've gleaned from my research is
    > that essentially all of the switches put the physical keyboard
    > into mode 2, then translate to/from mode 3 for the VMS connection.


    A google search which I do not have handy indicates that x86 PCs not
    only regularly use mode 3 for keyboards, support for the LK series
    appears to be present in many versions of Microsoft Windows. The only
    version known not to support the LK4xx keyboards is the first retail
    version of Microsoft NT 4.0. The betas had support.

    Unfortunately I could not find a list of what versions of Microsoft
    Windows will support a NT 4.0 keyboard.

    It also appears from google that Linux will support an LKxxx keyboard.

    > Apparently Raritan does the translation with a per-system-connection
    > adapter (Alan, correct me if I'm wrong; I don't have any personal
    > experience with Raritan).


    Google is indicating that such translation is not needed as the x86 PCs
    operating systems already know about and use mode 3, but that conflicts
    with what others who have studied this more than I did.

    It seems what is needed is a scan code map for the LK4xx keyboards so
    that you can predict what key does what. All I have found so far with
    google is a web page that shows them for a large number of keyboards,
    but not the LK4xx keyboard.

    Based on the posting I found about Windows NT 4.0 specifically not
    working with an LK4xx keyboard, I am starting to wonder if that is what
    the real issue was.

    I have not been able to find search terms to get any information about
    this topic on the Microsoft site.

    > Rose does the translation in the switch if you get a model that
    > supports this: "ServeView +" / "ServeView Pro" do, as well as
    > their more expensive UltraView series.
    >
    > Christoph Gartmann has noted that even with the ServeView, you
    > may need to (temporarily?) connect a/the keyboard directly to
    > the Alpha system on reboot to get the full set of keys recognized.
    > Again, I don't have personal experience with the ServeView...
    > although I'm trying to find one I like on eBay...


    So far in my limited tests, Windows 98/2000 are quite happy with an LK
    keyboard connected through the cheap Belkin KVM.

    The Reflections 4 version I have appears to be able have their keyboard
    map reprogrammed to use the LK4xx keys, but do not have an easy way to
    do so, even though they have an LK4xx keyboard in their selection list,
    by default they leave the key mapping as if you have a PC keyboard.
    So it looks like I will have to see if there is a way to do the mapping
    and just put those settings in their own file.

    On the other hand, Powerterm in Pathworks 32 running on Windows XP
    automatically detected that the PC suddenly acquired (and with out a
    reboot), a LK4xx keyboard and immediately made the keys available. No
    changes required. That was not through a KVM, I just plugged in the
    keyboard to see what would happen. The powerterm keyboard map display
    however did not admit to the extra keys, but that could be a setting
    that I have not found yet, as I really have not looked.

    -John
    wb8tyw@qsl.network
    Personal Opinion Only

  9. Re: DEC Keyboard Question

    John E. Malmberg wrote:
    > Ken Fairfield wrote:
    >
    >>
    >> I don't know specifically about the Outlook ES, but when I queried
    >> Avocent's technical support that Fall, the answer I got back was,
    >>
    >> "While our switches do support mode 3 keyboard, it is
    >> currently only in the 101/102 keyboard layout. The
    >> additional keys would not pass through."
    >>
    >> I got similar negative responses from Adder, Linksys and Belkin.
    >> I didn't expect anything different from Belkin, but Adder had a
    >> nice little switch I would've liked to buy...too bad...

    >
    >
    > A google search shows that there are several mode 3 keyboards available
    > for x86 PC devices from several vendors.


    Due respect, John, you're missing the point. The problem is
    not mode 3, and it is not x86 PCs. It is KVM switches.

    It is true that Windows of various generations works fine with
    LK4xx keyboards, and I, too, use one for my daily work connected
    to an IBM T41 Laptop running Windows XP Professional (not proud of
    it, just the facts m'am :-).

    The problem is the KVM switch does not pass the key codes
    corresponding to the "extra" keys on the LK4xx. It passes all the
    keys codes found on a "standard" 101/102 key keyboard. It doesn't
    pass F17-F20, for example, or KP-comma, or the DO key, etc. And I'm
    not even talking about the mapping of the 102 keys they do pass.

    >> The other piece of information I've gleaned from my research is
    >> that essentially all of the switches put the physical keyboard
    >> into mode 2, then translate to/from mode 3 for the VMS connection.

    >
    >
    > A google search which I do not have handy indicates that x86 PCs not
    > only regularly use mode 3 for keyboards, support for the LK series
    > appears to be present in many versions of Microsoft Windows. The only
    > version known not to support the LK4xx keyboards is the first retail
    > version of Microsoft NT 4.0. The betas had support.
    >
    > Unfortunately I could not find a list of what versions of Microsoft
    > Windows will support a NT 4.0 keyboard.
    >
    > It also appears from google that Linux will support an LKxxx keyboard.


    Ditto: problem not with x86PC nor Windows, but with KVM switch.

    >> Apparently Raritan does the translation with a per-system-connection
    >> adapter (Alan, correct me if I'm wrong; I don't have any personal
    >> experience with Raritan).

    >
    >
    > Google is indicating that such translation is not needed as the x86 PCs
    > operating systems already know about and use mode 3, but that conflicts
    > with what others who have studied this more than I did.


    Ditto: problem not with x86 PC but with KVM switch.

    [BIG SNIP]

    > So far in my limited tests, Windows 98/2000 are quite happy with an LK
    > keyboard connected through the cheap Belkin KVM.


    Ditto: problem not with x86 PC nor Windows. If you use an LK4xx
    through the Belkin to Windows, you won't see a problem. Indeed,
    you may not see the problem through the Belkin to VMS if your
    access to VMS is through the PC (mode 2). I don't know that this
    is true, I'm only allowing that I haven't tried it...

    YOU WILL SEE THE PROBLEM if you connect the LK4xx to the KVM switch,
    then the KVM switch to a "real Alpha". Trust me. You will.
    No Reflections. No KEAterm. No eXceed. Native (semi-)direct VMS.
    Won't work.

    [MORE SNIPPAGE]

    -Ken

    --
    I don't speak for Intel, Intel doesn't speak for me...

    Ken Fairfield
    D1C Automation VMS System Support
    who: kenneth dot h dot fairfield
    where: intel dot com


  10. Re: DEC Keyboard Question


    There are two types of KVM switches - dumb pass-thru and "smart" switches.
    The dumb ones simply pass the data through with little intellegence. The
    only thing that they need to do at least for VMS is to cause a power up
    sequence to be generated when the KB is connected. This way we will
    reprogram the KB automatically. The smart ones actually have a uProc that
    handles the KB and then emulates a KB on the other side. These keyboards
    need to either know about the extended codes - or at least be smart enough
    to pass them through. In the worst case, these KVMs handle USB as well, and
    then they need to know how to turn the extendd PS2 codes into the right USB
    codes.


    "Ken Fairfield" wrote in message
    news:ct657g$9jf$1@news01.intel.com...
    > John E. Malmberg wrote:
    > > Ken Fairfield wrote:
    > >
    > >>
    > >> I don't know specifically about the Outlook ES, but when I queried
    > >> Avocent's technical support that Fall, the answer I got back was,
    > >>
    > >> "While our switches do support mode 3 keyboard, it is
    > >> currently only in the 101/102 keyboard layout. The
    > >> additional keys would not pass through."
    > >>
    > >> I got similar negative responses from Adder, Linksys and Belkin.
    > >> I didn't expect anything different from Belkin, but Adder had a
    > >> nice little switch I would've liked to buy...too bad...

    > >
    > >
    > > A google search shows that there are several mode 3 keyboards available
    > > for x86 PC devices from several vendors.

    >
    > Due respect, John, you're missing the point. The problem is
    > not mode 3, and it is not x86 PCs. It is KVM switches.
    >
    > It is true that Windows of various generations works fine with
    > LK4xx keyboards, and I, too, use one for my daily work connected
    > to an IBM T41 Laptop running Windows XP Professional (not proud of
    > it, just the facts m'am :-).
    >
    > The problem is the KVM switch does not pass the key codes
    > corresponding to the "extra" keys on the LK4xx. It passes all the
    > keys codes found on a "standard" 101/102 key keyboard. It doesn't
    > pass F17-F20, for example, or KP-comma, or the DO key, etc. And I'm
    > not even talking about the mapping of the 102 keys they do pass.
    >
    > >> The other piece of information I've gleaned from my research is
    > >> that essentially all of the switches put the physical keyboard
    > >> into mode 2, then translate to/from mode 3 for the VMS connection.

    > >
    > >
    > > A google search which I do not have handy indicates that x86 PCs not
    > > only regularly use mode 3 for keyboards, support for the LK series
    > > appears to be present in many versions of Microsoft Windows. The only
    > > version known not to support the LK4xx keyboards is the first retail
    > > version of Microsoft NT 4.0. The betas had support.
    > >
    > > Unfortunately I could not find a list of what versions of Microsoft
    > > Windows will support a NT 4.0 keyboard.
    > >
    > > It also appears from google that Linux will support an LKxxx keyboard.

    >
    > Ditto: problem not with x86PC nor Windows, but with KVM switch.
    >
    > >> Apparently Raritan does the translation with a per-system-connection
    > >> adapter (Alan, correct me if I'm wrong; I don't have any personal
    > >> experience with Raritan).

    > >
    > >
    > > Google is indicating that such translation is not needed as the x86 PCs
    > > operating systems already know about and use mode 3, but that conflicts
    > > with what others who have studied this more than I did.

    >
    > Ditto: problem not with x86 PC but with KVM switch.
    >
    > [BIG SNIP]
    >
    > > So far in my limited tests, Windows 98/2000 are quite happy with an LK
    > > keyboard connected through the cheap Belkin KVM.

    >
    > Ditto: problem not with x86 PC nor Windows. If you use an LK4xx
    > through the Belkin to Windows, you won't see a problem. Indeed,
    > you may not see the problem through the Belkin to VMS if your
    > access to VMS is through the PC (mode 2). I don't know that this
    > is true, I'm only allowing that I haven't tried it...
    >
    > YOU WILL SEE THE PROBLEM if you connect the LK4xx to the KVM switch,
    > then the KVM switch to a "real Alpha". Trust me. You will.
    > No Reflections. No KEAterm. No eXceed. Native (semi-)direct VMS.
    > Won't work.
    >
    > [MORE SNIPPAGE]
    >
    > -Ken
    >
    > --
    > I don't speak for Intel, Intel doesn't speak for me...
    >
    > Ken Fairfield
    > D1C Automation VMS System Support
    > who: kenneth dot h dot fairfield
    > where: intel dot com
    >




  11. Re: DEC Keyboard Question

    FredK wrote:

    > There are two types of KVM switches - dumb pass-thru and "smart" switches.
    > The dumb ones simply pass the data through with little intellegence. The
    > only thing that they need to do at least for VMS is to cause a power up
    > sequence to be generated when the KB is connected. This way we will
    > reprogram the KB automatically. The smart ones actually have a uProc that
    > handles the KB and then emulates a KB on the other side. These keyboards
    > need to either know about the extended codes - or at least be smart enough
    > to pass them through. In the worst case, these KVMs handle USB as well, and
    > then they need to know how to turn the extendd PS2 codes into the right USB
    > codes.


    Thanks, Fred. There's the theory lesson for you. Now to the lab.

    Problem is, given the range of KVM switches in the field, only the
    "smart" ones have been shown to work (reasonably) connected to both
    a PC and a VMS system. If you know differently, PLEASE SHARE!

    By the way, as near as my co-worker and I have been able to figure
    out, the LK463 connected directly to the USB port of a laptop
    running Windows XP does NOT recognize the "extra" keys.

    Same keyboard connected to the same laptop, but using the
    USB-to-PS/2 adapter and plugged into the PS/2 port on a
    port-replicator (no PS/2 connector on the nwere laptops) works
    fine, all 108 keys.

    Apparently, the needed enhancements to the USB keyboard driver
    are not included in Windows XP (would be nice if HP supplied
    such a driver)...

    -Ken
    --
    I don't speak for Intel, Intel doesn't speak for me...

    Ken Fairfield
    D1C Automation VMS System Support
    who: kenneth dot h dot fairfield
    where: intel dot com


  12. Re: DEC Keyboard Question

    "Ken Fairfield" wrote in message
    news:ct67p7$anj$1@news01.intel.com...
    > FredK wrote:
    >
    > > There are two types of KVM switches - dumb pass-thru and "smart"

    switches.
    > > The dumb ones simply pass the data through with little intellegence.

    The
    > > only thing that they need to do at least for VMS is to cause a power up
    > > sequence to be generated when the KB is connected. This way we will
    > > reprogram the KB automatically. The smart ones actually have a uProc

    that
    > > handles the KB and then emulates a KB on the other side. These

    keyboards
    > > need to either know about the extended codes - or at least be smart

    enough
    > > to pass them through. In the worst case, these KVMs handle USB as well,

    and
    > > then they need to know how to turn the extendd PS2 codes into the right

    USB
    > > codes.

    >
    > Thanks, Fred. There's the theory lesson for you. Now to the lab.
    >
    > Problem is, given the range of KVM switches in the field, only the
    > "smart" ones have been shown to work (reasonably) connected to both
    > a PC and a VMS system. If you know differently, PLEASE SHARE!
    >
    > By the way, as near as my co-worker and I have been able to figure
    > out, the LK463 connected directly to the USB port of a laptop
    > running Windows XP does NOT recognize the "extra" keys.
    >
    > Same keyboard connected to the same laptop, but using the
    > USB-to-PS/2 adapter and plugged into the PS/2 port on a
    > port-replicator (no PS/2 connector on the nwere laptops) works
    > fine, all 108 keys.
    >
    > Apparently, the needed enhancements to the USB keyboard driver
    > are not included in Windows XP (would be nice if HP supplied
    > such a driver)...
    >


    Yes/No. USB is fairly well defined (as opposed to PS2). There is a huge
    table of key codes - but when adding extra keys to a non-Windows keyboard
    you just try to come as close as you can to how you think they *should* map.
    You would imagine that the Windows drivers would just pass the USB key
    through - and I *think* they do, but don't know for certain - but for
    instance using PowerTerm I see something - unknown keys when using the LK463
    directly.

    In any case, PowerTerm knows about the LK411 keyboard, and when you plug in
    a LK463 *using* a PS2 dongle - that is what it looks like. When you plug it
    in directly, the keys don't map correctly in a way that the application (for
    instance PowerTerm) expects.

    I have shared the USB keymapping with Ericom in case they want to
    incorporate support. So if you are using one of their commercial versions
    (HP no longer is updating the old version that was in Pathworks) feel free
    to ask them to support it as well.




  13. Re: DEC Keyboard Question

    In article ,
    Ken Fairfield writes:
    > John E. Malmberg wrote:
    >> Ken Fairfield wrote:
    >>

    > The problem is the KVM switch does not pass the key codes
    > corresponding to the "extra" keys on the LK4xx. It passes all the
    > keys codes found on a "standard" 101/102 key keyboard. It doesn't
    > pass F17-F20, for example, or KP-comma, or the DO key, etc. And I'm
    > not even talking about the mapping of the 102 keys they do pass.


    F12, F13, F17, HELP, DO, AND KP MINUS, do not exist on a standard x86
    keyboard. The BELKIN KVM switch that I have does not seem to have any
    problem with sending them to the my DS10 after I switch to it.

    I have not tried convincing Reflections 4 to attemp to use them.

    These keys do work:

    KP-COMMA is the same scan code as the PLUS key.
    F18 is the same scan code as the PrtSc/SysRq key.
    F19 is the same scan code as the Scroll Lock key.
    F20 is the same scan code as the Pause/Break key.

    >>> The other piece of information I've gleaned from my research is
    >>> that essentially all of the switches put the physical keyboard
    >>> into mode 2, then translate to/from mode 3 for the VMS connection.


    I have not put any keyboard analyzers or test programs on either system so I
    really do not know what is actually being sent.

    >> So far in my limited tests, Windows 98/2000 are quite happy with an LK
    >> keyboard connected through the cheap Belkin KVM.

    >
    > Ditto: problem not with x86 PC nor Windows. If you use an LK4xx
    > through the Belkin to Windows, you won't see a problem. Indeed,
    > you may not see the problem through the Belkin to VMS if your
    > access to VMS is through the PC (mode 2). I don't know that this
    > is true, I'm only allowing that I haven't tried it...


    Apparently you did not follow the Encompasserve links :-)

    > YOU WILL SEE THE PROBLEM if you connect the LK4xx to the KVM switch,
    > then the KVM switch to a "real Alpha". Trust me. You will.
    > No Reflections. No KEAterm. No eXceed. Native (semi-)direct VMS.
    > Won't work.


    I have the KVM switch connected to a x86 machine, and an Alpha and have been
    using it for a month now.

    My first reply today on this thread was composed by typing on a keyboard
    connected to that Belkin KVM which also switches the speakers and microphone
    at the same time, and I also logged into the system through Reflections 4,
    which worked the same as it always did. It did not see the extra keys.

    I do not yet have Pathworks 32 installed on that machine.

    So far, every thing that I have tried has worked as expected.

    The only thing that took me by surprise is that the ALT-F19 or
    Alt-F19 toggles some DecWindows Motif mouse handling mode. And you have to
    use the same ALT key (right or left) to unset the mode as was used to set it.

    The only reason that I got the KVM was that it was on about 50% rebate last
    month, making it very cheap, as it was already about the cheapest KVM in the
    store and it handled the audio. I figured if it did not work, I was not
    out much.

    -John
    wb8tyw@qsl.network
    Personal Opinion Only

  14. Re: DEC Keyboard Question

    FredK wrote:

    [...]
    > Yes/No. USB is fairly well defined (as opposed to PS2). There is a huge
    > table of key codes - but when adding extra keys to a non-Windows keyboard
    > you just try to come as close as you can to how you think they *should* map.
    > You would imagine that the Windows drivers would just pass the USB key
    > through - and I *think* they do, but don't know for certain - but for
    > instance using PowerTerm I see something - unknown keys when using the LK463
    > directly.


    [...]
    OK, good to know. I'll have to do some more experiments.

    With both KEAterm and eXceed, and using the PS/2 connection, I'm able
    to map the otherwise "unrecognized" keys to their "proper" LK4xx
    key or keysym. I was looking over my co-worker's shoulder when he
    tried, and failed, with the USB connection directly into his laptop.
    I'll try again on my own and report what I find.

    -Ken
    --
    I don't speak for Intel, Intel doesn't speak for me...

    Ken Fairfield
    D1C Automation VMS System Support
    who: kenneth dot h dot fairfield
    where: intel dot com


  15. Re: DEC Keyboard Question

    In article <5nxJd.6532$mv4.3353@news.cpqcorp.net>,
    "FredK" writes:
    >
    > There are two types of KVM switches - dumb pass-thru and "smart" switches.
    > The dumb ones simply pass the data through with little intellegence. The
    > only thing that they need to do at least for VMS is to cause a power up
    > sequence to be generated when the KB is connected. This way we will
    > reprogram the KB automatically. The smart ones actually have a uProc that
    > handles the KB and then emulates a KB on the other side. These keyboards
    > need to either know about the extended codes - or at least be smart enough
    > to pass them through. In the worst case, these KVMs handle USB as well, and
    > then they need to know how to turn the extendd PS2 codes into the right USB
    > codes.


    With out an analyzer, there is probably no way to determine which type
    that the BELKIN F1DL102P KVM is. It obviously has to have some smarts because
    the only way to switch sessions is by using the keyboard.

    http://catalog.belkin.com/IWCatProdu...duct_Id=164050

    It claims to do keyboard emulation.

    As I remember, the retail price at the local store is a bit lower than what
    is shown, and after the rebates, I think I ended up only spending less than
    1/2 of even that.

    There is not much documentation for it other than it is has support for
    multiple operating systems.

    I just put it in because it was cheap and allowed me to switch the audio also,
    which would simplify things.

    I figured if it did not work, I would not be out much.

    I do not know if there are problems that I have not discovered, after all
    it has only been a month on a home hobby machine.

    -John
    wb8tyw@qsl.network
    Personal Opinion Only

  16. Re: DEC Keyboard Question

    My apologies...I think John and I have been talking past each other...

    My problem has been to get all the keys on an LK461 passed through
    the KVM to the Alpha. John seems to have been concentrating on
    what those keys do on the Windows side...

    John E. Malmberg wrote:

    [...]
    > F12, F13, F17, HELP, DO, AND KP MINUS, do not exist on a standard x86
    > keyboard. The BELKIN KVM switch that I have does not seem to have any
    > problem with sending them to the my DS10 after I switch to it.
    >
    > I have not tried convincing Reflections 4 to attemp to use them.
    >
    > These keys do work:
    >
    > KP-COMMA is the same scan code as the PLUS key.
    > F18 is the same scan code as the PrtSc/SysRq key.
    > F19 is the same scan code as the Scroll Lock key.
    > F20 is the same scan code as the Pause/Break key.


    OK, right, in a Windows environment, that's the (default) mapping
    I see. Although I mis-remembered that KP-minus was missing with
    KP-comma mapped to KP-plus; I had thought KP-comma was missing and
    KP-minus mapped to KP-plus.

    But I never considered this the root problem. I was pleasantly
    surprized that, under Windows 2000 and XP, both KEA and eXceed
    could "see" my key presses for the "extra" keys, and allow me to
    map them within the application to the correct LK4xx key code or
    keysym. That made me a happy camper since I could edit "naturally"
    on VMS while sitting at my laptop. :-)

    [...]
    > Apparently you did not follow the Encompasserve links :-)


    I have now. :-) This is actually very good news. My info is
    clearly out of date, bit over a year old. Or perhaps I asked
    Belkin the wrong question.

    [...]
    > I have the KVM switch connected to a x86 machine, and an Alpha and have
    > been using it for a month now.
    >
    > My first reply today on this thread was composed by typing on a keyboard
    > connected to that Belkin KVM which also switches the speakers and
    > microphone at the same time, and I also logged into the system through
    > Reflections 4, which worked the same as it always did. It did not see
    > the extra keys.


    So this is interesting. It would "appear", without the aid of some
    signal tracing, that the KVM keeps the Alpha connection in mode 3
    and passes all codes, while the PC connection is in mode 2 and passes
    only the 104 or so key codes it "knows". Or is it that Reflection
    doesn't know how to handle the LK461? What happens if you bypass the
    KVM and plug the LK461 directly into the PC? Does Reflection see all
    the keys then? If not, the problem is in Reflection, not the KVM
    (at least, not necessarily).

    [...]
    > The only thing that took me by surprise is that the ALT-F19 or
    > Alt-F19 toggles some DecWindows Motif mouse handling mode. And you have
    > to use the same ALT key (right or left) to unset the mode as was used
    > to set it.


    I'll have to keep a lookout for that...

    > The only reason that I got the KVM was that it was on about 50% rebate
    > last month, making it very cheap, as it was already about the cheapest
    > KVM in the store and it handled the audio. I figured if it did not
    > work, I was not out much.


    Sounds good! And for those not familiar with this device, the
    Belkin F1DL102P is a 2-port KVM embedded in the cables. It sort
    of looks like a wishbone. You don't need to buy separate cables,
    which for Raritan and Rose switches can be _very_ expensive!

    John, how long are the cables? It's not clear from the description.
    I'm using 5ft cables from my current switch to the two systems I have
    and I don't think I could go any shorter.

    -Ken
    --
    I don't speak for Intel, Intel doesn't speak for me...

    Ken Fairfield
    D1C Automation VMS System Support
    who: kenneth dot h dot fairfield
    where: intel dot com


  17. Re: DEC Keyboard Question

    Ken Fairfield wrote:

    > So this is interesting. It would "appear", without the aid of some
    > signal tracing, that the KVM keeps the Alpha connection in mode 3
    > and passes all codes, while the PC connection is in mode 2 and passes
    > only the 104 or so key codes it "knows". Or is it that Reflection
    > doesn't know how to handle the LK461? What happens if you bypass the
    > KVM and plug the LK461 directly into the PC? Does Reflection see all
    > the keys then? If not, the problem is in Reflection, not the KVM
    > (at least, not necessarily).


    My Reflections 4/X version is old, and it only knows about Windows NT
    4.0 and earlier. Reflections 4 says that I have to install a special
    DLL for it to use the LK450 layout, but that also appears to have side
    effects for the Microsoft side. The script is also refusing to run on
    Windows 2000, simply stating it is prohibited from doing something. I
    have not yet tried Reflections X.

    So I will probably leave that alone. I do not have time to try a direct
    keyboard connection right now.

    I need to get a copy of the HP Pathworks 32 product for home use and see
    if that works.

    I can not get the autoscan feature to work.

    > John, how long are the cables? It's not clear from the description.
    > I'm using 5ft cables from my current switch to the two systems I have
    > and I don't think I could go any shorter.


    I can not find anything that admits to how long the cables are.

    From a crude eyeball estimate the cables look to be about 5 ft long.
    The instructions state that 8 ft is the longest that a video signal can
    be reliably delivered. But these cables are definitely not 8 ft long.

    There is no reason that the body of the switch has to be anywhere that
    it needs to be accessed. No buttons at all, just some LEDs that tell
    you which screen you are looking at.

    The instructions indicate that with a F1D084 CAT-5 Extender can be used
    to extend the length up to 500 ft.

    There also appears to be 4 port models and USB only models.

    From the FAQ in the manual:

    Q: What operating system does the Switch support?

    A: The Switch will support any operating system that runs on a PS/2
    platform, It will also work with Sun(tm) and Mac(r) operating
    systems using the appropriate adapters.[snip] Operating systems
    include but are not limited to, DOS, Windows 95, 98, 2000, Me,
    NT, XP, Linux, and Novell NetWare 4.x/5.x.

    But this one took my by surprise as I have been using all three buttons
    on my digital 3 button mouse since I got this thing and they work fine
    on VMS.

    Q: Does the Switch function with the Microsoft IntelliMouse?

    A: Yes, the Switch will function with Microsoft, Logitech,
    Kensignton, as well as with all Belkin mice. The Switch
    will support only 2 mouse buttons. Please contact Belkin
    Technical Support for any compatibility questions you may
    have.

    -John
    wb8tyw@qsl.network
    Personal Opinion Only

  18. Re: DEC Keyboard Question

    In article <5nxJd.6532$mv4.3353@news.cpqcorp.net>, "FredK" writes:
    >
    >There are two types of KVM switches - dumb pass-thru and "smart" switches.
    >The dumb ones simply pass the data through with little intellegence. The
    >only thing that they need to do at least for VMS is to cause a power up
    >sequence to be generated when the KB is connected. This way we will
    >reprogram the KB automatically. The smart ones actually have a uProc that
    >handles the KB and then emulates a KB on the other side. These keyboards
    >need to either know about the extended codes - or at least be smart enough
    >to pass them through. In the worst case, these KVMs handle USB as well, and
    >then they need to know how to turn the extendd PS2 codes into the right USB
    >codes.


    Interesting. So I would like to get an explanation for the phenomenon I
    experience with our Rose switches:
    1) Extended keyboards like my LK411-AG connected to the switch work as expected
    in "mode 3" with any Alpha so far. The same is true for a 3-button mouse.
    2) But after a reboot of the Alpha the keyboard is recognized by OpenVMS as
    one of these PC keyboards (only 15 function keys. As soon as I plug a real
    keyboard into the Alpha, type a compose character and reconnect the KVM
    switch all is working fine again.

    Regards,
    Christoph Gartmann

    --
    Max-Planck-Institut fuer Phone : +49-761-5108-464 Fax: -452
    Immunbiologie
    Postfach 1169 Internet: gartmann@immunbio dot mpg dot de
    D-79011 Freiburg, Germany
    http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/home/menue.html

  19. Re: DEC Keyboard Question


    The "default" is a PC-style KB. To get the driver to handle the KB as a
    LK411
    there is an obscure handshake where the driver sends certain commands that
    will return "error" characters on a standard KB, and return something else
    on
    an LK411 (the LK450 has a subtle variation on this as well).

    Plugging in a KB (and it's powerup) causes the KB to send 0xAA to the
    system,
    which causes the driver to start this handshake. The generic problem with
    pass-thru switches is that the power up only gets sent to one system (or
    none,
    if the KVM is supplying power all the time). VMS will poll the KB when the
    driver
    is reset to force a powerup sequence as well. But if no KB is there, the
    sequence
    may never complete.

    There is a solution, I suppose, which is to build a driver that can decode
    mode 2
    keycodes, and that always expects a LK411. But this driver would have to be
    forced to be loaded - since there would be no way to auto-detect it. When
    the
    drivers were written, the expectation was that a KB would always be
    attached.


    "Christoph Gartmann" wrote in message
    news:ct7u9f$62t$1@news.BelWue.DE...
    > In article <5nxJd.6532$mv4.3353@news.cpqcorp.net>, "FredK"

    writes:
    > >
    > >There are two types of KVM switches - dumb pass-thru and "smart"

    switches.
    > >The dumb ones simply pass the data through with little intellegence. The
    > >only thing that they need to do at least for VMS is to cause a power up
    > >sequence to be generated when the KB is connected. This way we will
    > >reprogram the KB automatically. The smart ones actually have a uProc

    that
    > >handles the KB and then emulates a KB on the other side. These keyboards
    > >need to either know about the extended codes - or at least be smart

    enough
    > >to pass them through. In the worst case, these KVMs handle USB as well,

    and
    > >then they need to know how to turn the extendd PS2 codes into the right

    USB
    > >codes.

    >
    > Interesting. So I would like to get an explanation for the phenomenon I
    > experience with our Rose switches:
    > 1) Extended keyboards like my LK411-AG connected to the switch work as

    expected
    > in "mode 3" with any Alpha so far. The same is true for a 3-button

    mouse.
    > 2) But after a reboot of the Alpha the keyboard is recognized by OpenVMS

    as
    > one of these PC keyboards (only 15 function keys. As soon as I plug a

    real
    > keyboard into the Alpha, type a compose character and reconnect the KVM
    > switch all is working fine again.
    >
    > Regards,
    > Christoph Gartmann
    >
    > --
    > Max-Planck-Institut fuer Phone : +49-761-5108-464 Fax: -452
    > Immunbiologie
    > Postfach 1169 Internet: gartmann@immunbio dot mpg dot de
    > D-79011 Freiburg, Germany
    > http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/home/menue.html




  20. Re: DEC Keyboard Question

    In article , "FredK" writes:
    >The "default" is a PC-style KB. To get the driver to handle the KB as a
    >LK411 there is an obscure handshake where the driver sends certain commands
    >that will return "error" characters on a standard KB, and return something
    >else on an LK411 (the LK450 has a subtle variation on this as well).


    Ok, I see.

    >Plugging in a KB (and it's powerup) causes the KB to send 0xAA to the system,
    >which causes the driver to start this handshake. The generic problem with
    >pass-thru switches is that the power up only gets sent to one system (or
    >none, if the KVM is supplying power all the time).


    In my case the KVM is supplying power all the time.

    >VMS will poll the KB when the driver is reset to force a powerup sequence
    >as well. But if no KB is there, the sequence may never complete.


    So if I could tell the KVM to send 0xAA to the Alpha this should force the
    Alpha to start the keyboard negotiation?

    Or is it possible to "tell" a LK411 to genereate 0xAA via some key combination?

    Regards,
    Christoph Gartmann

    --
    Max-Planck-Institut fuer Phone : +49-761-5108-464 Fax: -452
    Immunbiologie
    Postfach 1169 Internet: gartmann@immunbio dot mpg dot de
    D-79011 Freiburg, Germany
    http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/home/menue.html

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