DEC Keyboard Question - DEC

This is a discussion on DEC Keyboard Question - DEC ; "Christoph Gartmann" wrote in message news:ct8eo2$oqv$1@news.BelWue.DE... > In article , "FredK" writes: > > >VMS will poll the KB when the driver is reset to force a powerup sequence > >as well. But if no KB is there, the sequence ...

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Thread: DEC Keyboard Question

  1. Re: DEC Keyboard Question


    "Christoph Gartmann" wrote in message
    news:ct8eo2$oqv$1@news.BelWue.DE...
    > In article , "FredK"

    writes:

    >
    > >VMS will poll the KB when the driver is reset to force a powerup sequence
    > >as well. But if no KB is there, the sequence may never complete.

    >
    > So if I could tell the KVM to send 0xAA to the Alpha this should force the
    > Alpha to start the keyboard negotiation?
    >


    Yes. If the KVM, when switched sent an 0xAA sequence, life would be
    perfect.

    > Or is it possible to "tell" a LK411 to genereate 0xAA via some key

    combination?
    >


    Not that I know of. Hot-plugging the KB is the only standard way I know of.
    A
    server reset also will do it.




  2. Re: DEC Keyboard Question

    FredK wrote:
    > The "default" is a PC-style KB. To get the driver to handle the KB
    > as a LK411 there is an obscure handshake where the driver sends
    > certain commands that will return "error" characters on a standard
    > KB, and return something else on an LK411 (the LK450 has a subtle
    > variation on this as well).


    Some (many?) Alpha consoles, certainly my PWS 600au, have a
    console variable kbd_hardware_type which can be set to either
    PCXAL or LK411, IIRC. Are you saying this console variable
    is ignored? Too bad, that...

    -Ken
    --
    I don't speak for Intel, Intel doesn't speak for me...

    Ken Fairfield
    D1C Automation VMS System Support
    who: kenneth dot h dot fairfield
    where: intel dot com


  3. Re: DEC Keyboard Question


    The console does not perform the magic act of identifying the KB AFAIK.
    If you want the console to know about it, you have to tell it. I *suppose*
    if
    everyone were to set it as appropriate, then I could use it.

    Nor does that handle hot-plug. For example, plugging in a LK411 to an
    AlphaBook.


    "Ken Fairfield" wrote in message
    news:ct8u2k$jp1$1@news01.intel.com...
    > FredK wrote:
    > > The "default" is a PC-style KB. To get the driver to handle the KB
    > > as a LK411 there is an obscure handshake where the driver sends
    > > certain commands that will return "error" characters on a standard
    > > KB, and return something else on an LK411 (the LK450 has a subtle
    > > variation on this as well).

    >
    > Some (many?) Alpha consoles, certainly my PWS 600au, have a
    > console variable kbd_hardware_type which can be set to either
    > PCXAL or LK411, IIRC. Are you saying this console variable
    > is ignored? Too bad, that...
    >
    > -Ken
    > --
    > I don't speak for Intel, Intel doesn't speak for me...
    >
    > Ken Fairfield
    > D1C Automation VMS System Support
    > who: kenneth dot h dot fairfield
    > where: intel dot com
    >




  4. Re: DEC Keyboard Question

    Christoph Gartmann wrote:

    > In article , "FredK" writes:

    [...]
    >>VMS will poll the KB when the driver is reset to force a powerup sequence
    >>as well. But if no KB is there, the sequence may never complete.

    >
    >
    > So if I could tell the KVM to send 0xAA to the Alpha this should force the
    > Alpha to start the keyboard negotiation?


    Is that possible? Does the Rose ServeView+ that you've written
    about allow you to program a sequence to be sent to the host?

    -Ken
    --
    I don't speak for Intel, Intel doesn't speak for me...

    Ken Fairfield
    D1C Automation VMS System Support
    who: kenneth dot h dot fairfield
    where: intel dot com


  5. Re: DEC Keyboard Question

    John E. Malmberg wrote:

    [...]
    > So I will probably leave that alone. I do not have time to try a direct
    > keyboard connection right now.
    >
    > I need to get a copy of the HP Pathworks 32 product for home use and see
    > if that works.


    I presume you mention Pathworks 32 because you want to try Powerterm?

    > I can not get the autoscan feature to work.


    Can you elaborate? I'm not clear what you mean by "autoscan".

    And after reading your note on DECUServe,
    http://www.encompasserve.org/DECUSer...tes/VMS/3141.8 ,
    I have a few other questions:

    1) The basic one, with both your DS10 and PC booted and connected
    to the KVM, does the keyboard "behave properly" when you switch
    back and forth between the two systems? This would answer
    whether the switch maintains different modes on the two ports.

    2) Can you "program" the switch to remember to use mode 3 on the
    DS10 port and mode 2 on the PC port?

    3) You wrote, "Of course this is not a complete test, and I have not
    seen what happens during or after a reboot of either the Microsoft
    Windows 2000 or XP system, or a reboot of the DS-10." Does this
    mean each system was already booted when you connect the KVM to
    them? Have you done a "cold boot" of either one with the KVM
    connected?

    4) The key question for me is the one that Christoph Gartmann
    has raised and discussed with Fred: if you boot the DS10,
    either cold, or as a "hot" reboot, does the LK461 get put
    into the correct mode for VMS?

    I'm really close to purchasing one of these switches for my hobbiest
    setup. :-) At present, I share the monitor and mouse via a KVM, but
    I have _two keyboards_, one directly plugged into my PWS600au. I'd
    like to have just one keyboard :-), but if I have to use Christoph's
    fix of directly plugging a keyboard into the PWS after boot, that's
    no help: it's a major pain to get at the back of the PWS to do the
    plugging (the way I have things arranged), and there's NO WAY I could
    get my wife to do that (she uses it more than I do, sigh...). Of, and
    since the thing is pretty noisy (fans for the Alpha, eh?), the system
    is shutdown most of the time, so the plugging would need to be done
    every time one wanted to use the system...

    Thanks, Ken
    --
    I don't speak for Intel, Intel doesn't speak for me...

    Ken Fairfield
    D1C Automation VMS System Support
    who: kenneth dot h dot fairfield
    where: intel dot com


  6. Re: DEC Keyboard Question

    Ken Fairfield wrote:
    > John E. Malmberg wrote:
    >>
    >> I need to get a copy of the HP Pathworks 32 product for home use and
    >> see if that works.

    >
    > I presume you mention Pathworks 32 because you want to try Powerterm?


    Actually the real motivator is to put X-11 on one of the test PCs for
    other purposes, and I figured that I would use the product that my
    employer is selling :-)

    >> I can not get the autoscan feature to work.

    >
    > Can you elaborate? I'm not clear what you mean by "autoscan".


    Autoscan is where it every 8 seconds it switches the screen from one
    system to the next. Not really a feature that I would use, but I got
    curious about it.

    > And after reading your note on DECUServe,
    > http://www.encompasserve.org/DECUSer...tes/VMS/3141.8 ,
    > I have a few other questions:
    >
    > 1) The basic one, with both your DS10 and PC booted and connected
    > to the KVM, does the keyboard "behave properly" when you switch
    > back and forth between the two systems? This would answer
    > whether the switch maintains different modes on the two ports.


    Both machines behave properly. However it does not really answer the
    question, as it is possible that the PC operating system is also using
    mode 3.

    The only issue is that sometimes I have to key in a single ALT-F19 to
    get either DECWindows-Motif or Windows back in the right mode.

    > 2) Can you "program" the switch to remember to use mode 3 on the
    > DS10 port and mode 2 on the PC port?


    No programming options. The switch is as it is. Just a couple of
    status LEDs, cables and connectors. It gets power from the two systems.
    No switches. No status screens. Just ALT-F19-F19-UP_ARROW to switch
    sessions, and if the keys do not work on Windows hit F19 again, and if
    the mouse on VMS tries to move a window instead of the normal mouse
    action, then hit ALT-F19 one more time.

    The only control is through the keyboard.

    > 3) You wrote, "Of course this is not a complete test, and I have not
    > seen what happens during or after a reboot of either the Microsoft
    > Windows 2000 or XP system, or a reboot of the DS-10." Does this
    > mean each system was already booted when you connect the KVM to
    > them? Have you done a "cold boot" of either one with the KVM
    > connected?


    Yes, I connected it live to both systems.

    A few weeks later we had a power outage, and I was able to do an orderly
    start up of both systems with no problems. I thought I put that in a
    followup note.

    > 4) The key question for me is the one that Christoph Gartmann
    > has raised and discussed with Fred: if you boot the DS10,
    > either cold, or as a "hot" reboot, does the LK461 get put
    > into the correct mode for VMS?


    I have booted the DS10 several times now with the KVM and it has not had
    any problems.

    I am running the field test of 8.2 still. I will be switching to the
    official release soon. I had one case of the keyboard/mouse
    malfunctioning where I needed to restart DECwindows to get it working
    again. I do not know if that resets the keyboard driver.

    Unplugging the keyboard or plugging it directly into the DS10 did not
    clear the problem before I restarted DECWindows from a Telnet session.

    > I'm really close to purchasing one of these switches for my hobbiest
    > setup. :-) At present, I share the monitor and mouse via a KVM, but
    > I have _two keyboards_, one directly plugged into my PWS600au.


    I used to have a KVM that I just used to switch the monitor. But
    keeping the audio stuff organized on the desk was a pain. I did not
    have room for a second set of powered speakers on the desk.

    So when this KVM with audio went on sale for close to $20 after rebates,
    I figured that it was worth the risk. And as the keyboard was not used
    with the old KVM, I got rid of a wall wart that powered it at the same time.

    I think that sale is over, but check around. I saw somewhere that there
    was a web site that tracks who is offering rebates for electronic stuff.
    I do not have the URL for it handy, but I supposed that either someone
    here would know it, or a search engine could find it.

    It now has me wondering if the older Belkin KVM that I replaced would
    have worked if I ran the keyboard through it. I will have to try that
    sometime. But first I would have to get the proper cables from it to
    the computer.

    Fred, Chris, you and other have clearly done more research in this area
    then I have. I just bought the cheapest KVM I could find and plugged
    it in to see what happened. I did not understand what the scan mode
    issue really was when I did this.

    If someone is primarily used to a PC layout, they may be a bit surprised
    at the difference. For me, this makes the PC easier to use, except
    getting use to the change of the "<>" labeled key becoming "~`".

    If you get one, I hope it works as well for you as this one has for me.

    No one is claiming that this is supported though, so make sure that you
    can return it if it does not work.

    -John
    wb8tyw@qsl.network
    Personal Opinion Only

  7. Re: DEC Keyboard Question

    In article , Ken Fairfield writes:
    >Christoph Gartmann wrote:
    >
    >> In article , "FredK" writes:

    >[...]
    >>>VMS will poll the KB when the driver is reset to force a powerup sequence
    >>>as well. But if no KB is there, the sequence may never complete.

    >>
    >>
    >> So if I could tell the KVM to send 0xAA to the Alpha this should force the
    >> Alpha to start the keyboard negotiation?

    >
    >Is that possible? Does the Rose ServeView+ that you've written
    >about allow you to program a sequence to be sent to the host?


    I don't know but I sent an e-mail to Rose Electronics to ask just that. The KVM
    has a key combination to "reset" the mouse and there is one send some "zero"
    code. So it might be possible that there are others. I'll let you know what
    they will tell me.

    Regards,
    Christoph Gartmann

    --
    Max-Planck-Institut fuer Phone : +49-761-5108-464 Fax: -452
    Immunbiologie
    Postfach 1169 Internet: gartmann@immunbio dot mpg dot de
    D-79011 Freiburg, Germany
    http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/home/menue.html

  8. Re: DEC Keyboard Question

    Christoph Gartmann wrote:

    > In article , Ken Fairfield writes:
    >
    >>Christoph Gartmann wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>>In article , "FredK" writes:

    >>
    >>[...]
    >>
    >>>>VMS will poll the KB when the driver is reset to force a powerup sequence
    >>>>as well. But if no KB is there, the sequence may never complete.
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>So if I could tell the KVM to send 0xAA to the Alpha this should force the
    >>>Alpha to start the keyboard negotiation?

    >>
    >>Is that possible? Does the Rose ServeView+ that you've written
    >>about allow you to program a sequence to be sent to the host?

    >
    >
    > I don't know but I sent an e-mail to Rose Electronics to ask just that. The KVM
    > has a key combination to "reset" the mouse and there is one send some "zero"
    > code. So it might be possible that there are others. I'll let you know what
    > they will tell me.


    For anyone still following this thread, there is currently a
    Rose 4-port ServeView Pro listed on eBay (US) for $15, apparently
    unused, as in still in the original box. Beware, however, that the
    cables can be quite expensive...they are Rose proprietary with DB25
    connectors on the switch side. Those can be found on eBay as well,
    and other posts have mentioned Black Box as a source of cables.

    For myself, given John Malmberg's last post, I'm going to try
    this new Belkin "thing-y". :-)

    -Ken
    --
    I don't speak for Intel, Intel doesn't speak for me...

    Ken Fairfield
    D1C Automation VMS System Support
    who: kenneth dot h dot fairfield
    where: intel dot com


  9. Re: DEC Keyboard Question

    John E. Malmberg wrote:

    > Ken Fairfield wrote:
    >
    >> John E. Malmberg wrote:


    [snip]
    >> 1) The basic one, with both your DS10 and PC booted and connected
    >> to the KVM, does the keyboard "behave properly" when you switch
    >> back and forth between the two systems? This would answer
    >> whether the switch maintains different modes on the two ports.

    >
    >
    > Both machines behave properly. However it does not really answer the
    > question, as it is possible that the PC operating system is also using
    > mode 3.


    This is very good news! Yes, it's possible the PC is using mode 3,
    but it is far more likely, in my experience, that it is using mode 2.

    [...]

    >> 3) You wrote, "Of course this is not a complete test, and I have not
    >> seen what happens during or after a reboot of either the Microsoft
    >> Windows 2000 or XP system, or a reboot of the DS-10." Does this
    >> mean each system was already booted when you connect the KVM to
    >> them? Have you done a "cold boot" of either one with the KVM
    >> connected?

    >
    >
    > Yes, I connected it live to both systems.
    >
    > A few weeks later we had a power outage, and I was able to do an orderly
    > start up of both systems with no problems. I thought I put that in a
    > followup note.


    You may have. I did read your DECUServe update note, but I may
    not have been paying attention to this particular (important) point
    at that time.

    >> 4) The key question for me is the one that Christoph Gartmann
    >> has raised and discussed with Fred: if you boot the DS10,
    >> either cold, or as a "hot" reboot, does the LK461 get put
    >> into the correct mode for VMS?

    >
    >
    > I have booted the DS10 several times now with the KVM and it has not had
    > any problems.


    This is very, very good news! It means I can hook this switch to
    my PWS600au, cold-boot it, and have the keyboard function correctly.
    This is what I've beem missing for the past year. Whoopie! :-)

    [...]
    > So when this KVM with audio went on sale for close to $20 after rebates,
    > I figured that it was worth the risk. And as the keyboard was not used
    > with the old KVM, I got rid of a wall wart that powered it at the same
    > time.
    >
    > I think that sale is over, but check around. I saw somewhere that there
    > was a web site that tracks who is offering rebates for electronic stuff.
    > I do not have the URL for it handy, but I supposed that either someone
    > here would know it, or a search engine could find it.


    Well the F1DL102P lists for US$70. There is also a nearly
    identical model that omits the audio connections & switching, the
    F1DK102P, which lists for US$65 (not much difference, I wonder of
    the "DL" simply supercedes the "DK"). Searching on the web, I've
    found the "DL" for as little as US$38 plus shipping. I'll have to
    call the local CompUSA and see if there is any current rebate for
    this switch...

    [...]
    > If someone is primarily used to a PC layout, they may be a bit surprised
    > at the difference. For me, this makes the PC easier to use, except
    > getting use to the change of the "<>" labeled key becoming "~`".


    On the older LK411's (or LK401's?), that was _the_ location of
    the "~`" key. In newer models, the "~`" got moved up to the ESC key,
    to the left of "1!". At the same time, Shift-"," and Shift-"." were
    changed to send "," and "." (same as unshifted) instead of "<" and ">".
    I prefer the old locations...even if it's a bit confusing that it
    doesn't match the keycap.

    > If you get one, I hope it works as well for you as this one has for me.
    >
    > No one is claiming that this is supported though, so make sure that you
    > can return it if it does not work.


    John, thanks so much for this! I'll be buying one of these this
    weekend. Even if it's not perfect, I'm willing to risk $40 to try. :-)

    -Ken
    --
    I don't speak for Intel, Intel doesn't speak for me...

    Ken Fairfield
    D1C Automation VMS System Support
    who: kenneth dot h dot fairfield
    where: intel dot com


  10. Re: DEC Keyboard Question

    In article , "FredK" writes:
    >
    >"Christoph Gartmann" wrote in message
    >news:ct8eo2$oqv$1@news.BelWue.DE...
    >> In article , "FredK"

    > writes:
    >
    >>
    >> >VMS will poll the KB when the driver is reset to force a powerup sequence
    >> >as well. But if no KB is there, the sequence may never complete.

    >>
    >> So if I could tell the KVM to send 0xAA to the Alpha this should force the
    >> Alpha to start the keyboard negotiation?
    >>

    >
    >Yes. If the KVM, when switched sent an 0xAA sequence, life would be
    >perfect.


    Now I know that I am able to force the KVM switch to send the power-up signal.
    Unfortunately this causes the "shift" and "screen" LEDs to blink once, whereas
    with the keyboard directly attached to an Alpha the LEDs blink twice. Obviously
    the Rose switch doesn't pass through all the negotiation stuff :-( . It is not
    one of the "dumb pass-through switches".

    So it would be helpful if I could tell OpenVMS to assume an LK411 and suppress
    the negotiation.

    Regards,
    Christoph Gartmann

    --
    Max-Planck-Institut fuer Phone : +49-761-5108-464 Fax: -452
    Immunbiologie
    Postfach 1169 Internet: gartmann@immunbio dot mpg dot de
    D-79011 Freiburg, Germany
    http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/home/menue.html

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