LAT for linux with 90L+ and VT420 - DEC

This is a discussion on LAT for linux with 90L+ and VT420 - DEC ; I have a small thinwire soho lan with some VAXstations, some PC's running linux with DECnet and LAT for linux (see http://linux-decnet.wiki.sourceforge.net/ and http://linux-decnet.wiki.sourceforge.net/LAT for info), and a DECserver 90L+ with some VT420's. The VT's connect to the VAXstations fine ...

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Thread: LAT for linux with 90L+ and VT420

  1. LAT for linux with 90L+ and VT420

    I have a small thinwire soho lan with some VAXstations,
    some PC's running linux with DECnet and LAT for linux
    (see http://linux-decnet.wiki.sourceforge.net/ and
    http://linux-decnet.wiki.sourceforge.net/LAT for info),
    and a DECserver 90L+ with some VT420's. The VT's connect
    to the VAXstations fine and dandy. They also connect
    okay to the PC's, but with one small glitch.
    Every 11th or 12th or 13th or 14th (seems to vary
    randomly in that range) keystroke isn't executed or echoed.
    It seems to get buffered somewhere, though, because as soon
    as I press another key, then both keystrokes are executed
    and echoed immediately. What's this behavior called (so that
    I can google it which I've failed to do so far), and how
    can I fix it (if it's fixable)?

    And a probably unrelated question: what keystroke (combination)
    sends an ESC char, e.g., so I can use vi from the VT420?
    Someone mentioned F11 (which doesn't work), and I can't find
    any way to make the key labelled `(ESC)~ on the LK401 work.
    Thanks,
    --
    John Forkosh ( mailto: j@f.com where j=john and f=forkosh )

  2. Re: LAT for linux with 90L+ and VT420

    On Sep 29, 2:44*pm, JohnF wrote:
    > I have a small thinwire soho lan with some VAXstations,
    > some PC's running linux with DECnet and LAT for linux
    > (seehttp://linux-decnet.wiki.sourceforge.net/*andhttp://linux-decnet.wiki.sourceforge.net/LAT*for info),
    > and a DECserver 90L+ with some VT420's. *The VT's connect
    > to the VAXstations fine and dandy. *They also connect
    > okay to the PC's, but with one small glitch.
    > * * *Every 11th or 12th or 13th or 14th (seems to vary
    > randomly in that range) keystroke isn't executed or echoed.
    > It seems to get buffered somewhere, though, because as soon
    > as I press another key, then both keystrokes are executed
    > and echoed immediately. *What's this behavior called (so that
    > I can google it which I've failed to do so far), and how
    > can I fix it (if it's fixable)?
    >
    > And a probably unrelated question: what keystroke (combination)
    > sends an ESC char, e.g., so I can use vi from the VT420?
    > Someone mentioned F11 (which doesn't work), and I can't find
    > any way to make the key labelled `(ESC)~ on the LK401 work.
    > Thanks,
    > --
    > John Forkosh *( mailto: *j...@f.com *where j=john and f=forkosh)


    Doesn't a VT420 have something in the setup (F3 to enter) that allows
    you to set a particular key to send either escape or tilde, or some
    such combination? Sorry I don't have one here to check and it might
    have been a VT510/525 instead.

    On my DS10 consoles, I enter escape to get to the RMC using

    shift-control-[ or shift-[

    depends on the keyboard but one of them always works

    F11 may send an escape if the terminal is in VT100 or VT52 mode (per
    the VT320 manual, you may not have VT52 mode on a VT420)

    CTRL-3 may also work, per the VT320 manual.

    Sorry I can't help with the LAT questions. We're still a 100% VMS
    shop where LAT is concerned and it "just works".


  3. Re: LAT for linux with 90L+ and VT420

    Rich Jordan wrote:
    > On Sep 29 JohnF wrote:
    >> And a probably unrelated question: what keystroke (combination)
    >> sends an ESC char, e.g., so I can use vi from the VT420?
    >> Someone mentioned F11 (which doesn't work), and I can't find
    >> any way to make the key labelled `(ESC)~ on the LK401 work.
    >> Thanks,

    >
    > Doesn't a VT420 have something in the setup (F3 to enter) that allows
    > you to set a particular key to send either escape or tilde, or some
    > such combination? Sorry I don't have one here to check and it might
    > have been a VT510/525 instead.
    >

    Thanks, Rich. My bad, you're right. Now that I'm looking more
    carefully,
    F3(setup) --> Keyboard --> `~Key Sends
    can be toggled to Sends ESC, and that works as advertised.

    > On my DS10 consoles, I enter escape to get to the RMC using
    > shift-control-[ or shift-[
    > depends on the keyboard but one of them always works
    >
    > F11 may send an escape if the terminal is in VT100 or VT52 mode (per
    > the VT320 manual, you may not have VT52 mode on a VT420)
    >

    Interesting. General Set-up shows VT52, 100 and 400 (7- or 8-bit
    controls) modes. F11 doesn't seem to be sending a char recognized
    as ESC by the linux PC in any of these modes. (On the PC side,
    I have TERM=vt100 as the environment variable.)
    Of course, your first suggestion solved my actual ESC problem.
    I'm just mentioning this in case it's of any interest.

    > CTRL-3 may also work, per the VT320 manual.
    >

    How about that. Also works as advertised.
    Two out of three ain't bad.

    > Sorry I can't help with the LAT questions.
    >

    I imagine it's specifically a LAT-for-linux thing.

    > We're still a 100% VMS shop where LAT is
    > concerned and it "just works".
    >

    Wow! 100% VMS shop. Used to be my bread and butter,
    but it's hard to come across any VMS requirements nowadays.
    Mainly just a few old legacy clients that continue to
    need support.
    --
    John Forkosh ( mailto: j@f.com where j=john and f=forkosh )

  4. Re: LAT for linux with 90L+ and VT420

    FWIW

    I run a DECserver 90TL with a thinwire setup consisting of VAXstation
    4000/90 and DEC AXP 3000/600 and SuSE linux box and I don't experience
    the drop outs your getting. Can't beat a real VT terminal for doin
    sysadmin work though - it just feels right (tm)!

    Mark.

  5. Re: LAT for linux with 90L+ and VT420

    Oh, forgot to mention:

    I have two configurations that ease access to the VAX/Alpha/Itanium
    boxes:

    1. I run an LK401/LK421/LK201 on my linux PC using the lkkbd kernel
    driver and a simple adapter. Details can be found at:
    http://www.wickensonline.co.uk/vaxen/linuxLK.html

    2. I run an OpenVMS/CDE desktop on a vncserver on my linux box,
    connected directly using a vncviewer on the linux box, but running the
    desktop manager remotely from the OpenVMS box. This allows you, for
    all intents and purposes, to have a VMS desktop running on your linux
    box. It works beautifully with (1) above including all the VMS
    specific keys. Details at: http://blog.wickensonline.co.uk/

    Regards,

    Mark.

  6. Re: LAT for linux with 90L+ and VT420

    JohnF skrev:
    > I have a small thinwire soho lan with some VAXstations,
    > some PC's running linux with DECnet and LAT for linux
    > (see http://linux-decnet.wiki.sourceforge.net/ and
    > http://linux-decnet.wiki.sourceforge.net/LAT for info),
    > and a DECserver 90L+ with some VT420's. The VT's connect
    > to the VAXstations fine and dandy. They also connect
    > okay to the PC's, but with one small glitch.
    > Every 11th or 12th or 13th or 14th (seems to vary
    > randomly in that range) keystroke isn't executed or echoed.
    > It seems to get buffered somewhere, though, because as soon
    > as I press another key, then both keystrokes are executed
    > and echoed immediately. What's this behavior called (so that
    > I can google it which I've failed to do so far), and how
    > can I fix it (if it's fixable)?


    I've seen that too. I'm almost certain it is some kind of bug in the LAT
    implementation for Linux, but good luck in figuring that one out...

    > And a probably unrelated question: what keystroke (combination)
    > sends an ESC char, e.g., so I can use vi from the VT420?
    > Someone mentioned F11 (which doesn't work), and I can't find
    > any way to make the key labelled `(ESC)~ on the LK401 work.
    > Thanks,


    For F11 to work, you need to select the terminal to act like a VT52, or a VT100.
    Other options are, as people have pointed out, doing a remapping of the
    keyboard, as can be done in the setup menu, or use CTRL-3.

    Actually, CTRL- are useful for a whole bunch of codes. Think in octal.
    CTRL-# will send 3#. So CTRL-3 will send 33, and so on...

    Johnny

    --
    Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
    || on a psychedelic trip
    email: bqt@softjar.se || Reading murder books
    pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

  7. Re: LAT for linux with 90L+ and VT420

    In article , JohnF writes:
    >
    > And a probably unrelated question: what keystroke (combination)
    > sends an ESC char, e.g., so I can use vi from the VT420?
    > Someone mentioned F11 (which doesn't work), and I can't find
    > any way to make the key labelled `(ESC)~ on the LK401 work.


    To make the ESC button work, you have to go into the VT420 setup
    and change it. That generally means you will want to move `~ to
    ,. and <> to the key on the lower left.

    In the meantime ^[ (control-[) will generate escape. I've used it
    for years because I like having <> on ,. But I'm getting used to
    the <> button on the lower left because I've got an LK401 on a
    VT320 which doesn't know about changing those settings.


  8. Re: LAT for linux with 90L+ and VT420

    In article , JohnF writes:

    > I have a small thinwire soho lan with some VAXstations,
    > some PC's running linux with DECnet and LAT for linux
    > (see http://linux-decnet.wiki.sourceforge.net/ and
    > http://linux-decnet.wiki.sourceforge.net/LAT for info),
    > and a DECserver 90L+ with some VT420's. The VT's connect
    > to the VAXstations fine and dandy. They also connect
    > okay to the PC's, but with one small glitch.


    We had similar problems with an early release of DECnet for Linux
    where the DECnet remote terminal protocol (not LAT) would drop
    characters.

    Fixed it by updating to the latest patches to DECnet for Linux.


  9. Re: LAT for linux with 90L+ and VT420

    Johnny Billquist wrote:
    > JohnF skrev:
    >> I have a small thinwire soho lan with some VAXstations,
    >> some PC's running linux with DECnet and LAT for linux
    >> (see http://linux-decnet.wiki.sourceforge.net/ and
    >> http://linux-decnet.wiki.sourceforge.net/LAT for info),
    >> and a DECserver 90L+ with some VT420's. The VT's connect
    >> to the VAXstations fine and dandy. They also connect
    >> okay to the PC's, but with one small glitch.
    >> Every 11th or 12th or 13th or 14th (seems to vary
    >> randomly in that range) keystroke isn't executed or echoed.
    >> It seems to get buffered somewhere, though, because as soon
    >> as I press another key, then both keystrokes are executed
    >> and echoed immediately. What's this behavior called (so that
    >> I can google it which I've failed to do so far), and how
    >> can I fix it (if it's fixable)?

    >
    > I've seen that too. I'm almost certain it is some kind of bug in the LAT
    > implementation for Linux, but good luck in figuring that one out...
    >

    Okay, I subscribed to their mailing list and submitted
    the question there. Will followup again here if anything
    interesting shows up.

    >> And a probably unrelated question: what keystroke (combination)
    >> sends an ESC char, e.g., so I can use vi from the VT420?
    >> Someone mentioned F11 (which doesn't work), and I can't find
    >> any way to make the key labelled `(ESC)~ on the LK401 work.
    >> Thanks,

    >
    > For F11 to work, you need to select the terminal to act like a VT52,
    > or a VT100. Other options are, as people have pointed out, doing a
    > remapping of the keyboard, as can be done in the setup menu,
    > or use CTRL-3.
    >
    > Actually, CTRL- are useful for a whole bunch of codes.
    > Think in octal. CTRL-# will send 3#. So CTRL-3 will send 33,
    > and so on...
    >

    Thanks, Johnny. That _is_ very useful to know.
    --
    John Forkosh ( mailto: j@f.com where j=john and f=forkosh )

  10. Re: LAT for linux with 90L+ and VT420

    Bob Koehler wrote:
    > JohnF writes:
    >
    >> I have a small thinwire soho lan with some VAXstations,
    >> some PC's running linux with DECnet and LAT for linux
    >> (see http://linux-decnet.wiki.sourceforge.net/ and
    >> http://linux-decnet.wiki.sourceforge.net/LAT for info),
    >> and a DECserver 90L+ with some VT420's. The VT's connect
    >> to the VAXstations fine and dandy. They also connect
    >> okay to the PC's, but with one small glitch.

    >
    > We had similar problems with an early release of DECnet for Linux
    > where the DECnet remote terminal protocol (not LAT) would drop
    > characters. Fixed it by updating to the latest patches
    > to DECnet for Linux.
    >

    Thanks, Bob. I'm currently running dnprogs-2.43.tar.gz
    and latd-1.25.tar.gz , which are pretty recent, but there
    now appears to be even more recent dnprogs-2.47.tar.gz and
    latd-1.27.tar.gz . Their Notes don't seem to suggest anything
    related to this problem, but I'll give them a try and followup
    here again if they have any effect on the LAT behavior.
    --
    John Forkosh ( mailto: j@f.com where j=john and f=forkosh )

  11. Re: LAT for linux with 90L+ and VT420

    Bob Koehler wrote:
    > JohnF writes:
    >>
    >> And a probably unrelated question: what keystroke (combination)
    >> sends an ESC char, e.g., so I can use vi from the VT420?
    >> Someone mentioned F11 (which doesn't work), and I can't find
    >> any way to make the key labelled `(ESC)~ on the LK401 work.

    >
    > To make the ESC button work, you have to go into the VT420 setup
    > and change it. That generally means you will want to move `~ to
    > ,. and <> to the key on the lower left.
    >

    That's what I did, which leaves ESC in a familiar keyboard
    position. (It's especially convenient for the vi editor when
    connected to a linux box, where you're frequently using ESC.)

    > In the meantime ^[ (control-[) will generate escape. I've used it
    > for years because I like having <> on ,. But I'm getting used to
    > the <> button on the lower left because I've got an LK401 on a
    > VT320 which doesn't know about changing those settings.
    >

    Nope, doesn't seem to be working for ESC. But I vaguely recall
    using ^[ for set port forward (or local) on a decserver.
    But the 90L+ doesn't seem to have that kind of setting,
    so now I'm not quite sure what I'm remembering doing, or how
    to un-do it.
    --
    John Forkosh ( mailto: j@f.com where j=john and f=forkosh )

  12. Re: LAT for linux with 90L+ and VT420

    urbancamo wrote:
    > FWIW I run a DECserver 90TL with a thinwire setup consisting
    > of VAXstation 4000/90 and DEC AXP 3000/600 and SuSE linux box
    > and I don't experience the drop outs your getting.
    >

    Thanks, Mark. Very interesting! Unfortunately, I don't have
    a TL to swap for the 90L+, which would let us distinguish
    between a hardware (compatibility) and software problem.
    That is, if the problem persisted after swapping, I'd infer
    it's strictly a software problem (though I suppose that's not
    a foolproof inference).

    > Can't beat a real VT terminal for doin sysadmin work though -
    > it just feels right (tm)!
    >

    Yeah, I'm still more comfortable with the VT's look and feel
    (and also with edt, although that's a whole other story).
    But the world's turning in a different direction

    > Oh, forgot to mention:
    >
    > I have two configurations that ease access to the VAX/Alpha/Itanium
    > boxes:
    >
    > 1. I run an LK401/LK421/LK201 on my linux PC using the lkkbd kernel
    > driver and a simple adapter. Details can be found at:
    > http://www.wickensonline.co.uk/vaxen/linuxLK.html
    >
    > 2. I run an OpenVMS/CDE desktop on a vncserver on my linux box,
    > connected directly using a vncviewer on the linux box, but running the
    > desktop manager remotely from the OpenVMS box. This allows you, for
    > all intents and purposes, to have a VMS desktop running on your linux
    > box. It works beautifully with (1) above including all the VMS
    > specific keys. Details at: http://blog.wickensonline.co.uk/
    >

    That's a very interesting setup. I just run www.forkosh.com/vt100.sh
    (which is slightly modified from the original) and telnet to the
    VAXstations. dnlogin/sethost also works, but occasionally seems
    to "stall" weirdly (no consistent cause/effect I can notice).
    The vt100.sh script conveniently sets up your keypad to behave
    like an LK, e.g., Gold is (typically) NumLock, etc.
    --
    John Forkosh ( mailto: j@f.com where j=john and f=forkosh )

  13. Re: LAT for linux with 90L+ and VT420

    In article , JohnF writes:

    > Yeah, I'm still more comfortable with the VT's look and feel
    > (and also with edt, although that's a whole other story).
    > But the world's turning in a different direction


    There are lots of EDT clones out there. I've used one called "ed",
    not to be confused with the default UNIX line editor "ed".

    And although emacs' author doesn't like it, the EDT mode for emacs
    is still alive and well.


  14. Re: LAT for linux with 90L+ and VT420

    JohnF wrote:
    > Johnny Billquist wrote:
    >> JohnF wrote:
    >>> I have a small thinwire soho lan with some VAXstations,
    >>> some PC's running linux with DECnet and LAT for linux
    >>> (see http://linux-decnet.wiki.sourceforge.net/ and
    >>> http://linux-decnet.wiki.sourceforge.net/LAT for info),
    >>> and a DECserver 90L+ with some VT420's. The VT's connect
    >>> to the VAXstations fine and dandy. They also connect
    >>> okay to the PC's, but with one small glitch.
    >>> Every 11th or 12th or 13th or 14th (seems to vary
    >>> randomly in that range) keystroke isn't executed or echoed.
    >>> It seems to get buffered somewhere, though, because as soon
    >>> as I press another key, then both keystrokes are executed
    >>> and echoed immediately. What's this behavior called (so that
    >>> I can google it which I've failed to do so far), and how
    >>> can I fix it (if it's fixable)?

    >>
    >> I've seen that too. I'm almost certain it is some kind of bug in the LAT
    >> implementation for Linux, but good luck in figuring that one out...
    >>

    > Okay, I subscribed to their mailing list and submitted
    > the question there. Will followup again here if anything
    > interesting shows up.
    >

    The package's author, Christine Caulfield, fixed the problem.
    Change line 855 of connection.cc in the latd package from
    if (!pending_data.empty() && window_size < max_window_size)
    to
    if (!pending_data.empty() && window_size <= max_window_size)
    --
    John Forkosh ( mailto: j@f.com where j=john and f=forkosh )

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