OpenVMS vs. Tru64? - DEC

This is a discussion on OpenVMS vs. Tru64? - DEC ; I have an XP1000 with no operating system. I have no definite plans for the machine, simply to fool around, test box, statistics, GIS, mostly with graphic desktop. Sorry for such a basic question, but is Tru64 still available, or ...

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Thread: OpenVMS vs. Tru64?

  1. OpenVMS vs. Tru64?

    I have an XP1000 with no operating system. I have no definite plans
    for the machine, simply to fool around, test box, statistics, GIS,
    mostly with graphic desktop.

    Sorry for such a basic question, but is Tru64 still available, or does
    OpenVMS have X-server capabilities?

    I realize there are Alpha Linux distros available, but would like to
    keep to the original software if possible.

    Thank you for your help,
    Bill

  2. Re: OpenVMS vs. Tru64?

    On Sep 19, 3:27*pm, AndersonBill wrote:
    > I have an XP1000 with no operating system. I have no definite plans
    > for the machine, simply to fool around, test box, statistics, GIS,
    > mostly with graphic desktop.
    >
    > Sorry for such a basic question, but is Tru64 still available, or does
    > OpenVMS have X-server capabilities?
    >
    > I realize there are Alpha Linux distros available, but would like to
    > keep to the original software if possible.
    >
    > Thank you for your help,
    > Bill


    VMS (on Alpha, VMS/VAX has an entirely different look and feel) has a
    GUI that runs on top of Motif.
    The initial login screens of Tru64 and VMS are different.
    VMS presents a white panel with "Username" and "Password" in it, Tru64
    shows two separate screens,
    with the HP logo on them. The functionality is the same and once
    you're in; a very similar look and feel.
    I run Tru64 on an Alpha Server 800 5/500 and VMS on an XP1000 (among
    others).
    The XP1000 has the advantage of a more powerful cpu and IDE (large,
    fairly cheap disks).
    There used to be a Tru64 hobbyist program; no idea whether it still
    exists. IIRC the cost for a license
    was $100. Montagar runs the VMS hobbyist site and if you have a Decus
    or Encompass membership
    you can obtain the licenses for free. A media cd for VMS and several
    layered products is $30.
    I'm biased if not prejudiced in favor of VMS but even then I think
    it's fair to say that hobbyist use of VMS
    is a lot easier and cheaper than running Tru64 at home.
    Hans Vlems

  3. Re: OpenVMS vs. Tru64?

    On 2008-09-19 16:57, "H Vlems" wrote:

    > [...]
    > There used to be a Tru64 hobbyist program; no idea whether it still
    > exists. IIRC the cost for a license
    > was $100. Montagar runs the VMS hobbyist site and if you have a Decus
    > or Encompass membership
    > you can obtain the licenses for free. A media cd for VMS and several
    > layered products is $30.


    According to Warren Sander of HP [1] "the noncommercial-unix program got
    canceled".

    > [...]


    Michael


    [1] comp.os.vms, Msg-ID <455b8168$1@usenet01.boi.hp.com>, 15-Nov-2006

    --
    Real names enhance the probability of getting real answers.
    My e-mail account at DECUS Munich is no longer valid.

  4. Re: OpenVMS vs. Tru64?

    In article <8bc6c09e-b325-4c04-bd6d-e337172dea9d@f63g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, AndersonBill writes:
    > Sorry for such a basic question, but is Tru64 still available, or does
    > OpenVMS have X-server capabilities?


    IIRC, the Tru64 hobbyist program has been shut down, but you can
    still buy it commercially from HP.

    VMS definitely has X-server capabilities. Check the SPD and the
    FAQ for which graphics cards are supported, or work anyhow.


  5. Re: OpenVMS vs. Tru64?

    In article <66d5ae45-ce3b-4a8c-90ad-70646cec018a@79g2000hsk.googlegroups.com>, H Vlems writes:
    >
    > VMS (on Alpha, VMS/VAX has an entirely different look and feel) has a
    > GUI that runs on top of Motif.


    Not if both are running CDE. Mine don't just because I'm no fan of CDE.


  6. Re: OpenVMS vs. Tru64?

    H Vlems schrieb:
    > I'm biased if not prejudiced in favor of VMS but even then I think
    > it's fair to say that hobbyist use of VMS
    > is a lot easier and cheaper than running Tru64 at home.


    The opposite is true, IMHO.
    Tru64 support for alphas is better than VMS
    (some graphic cards and IDE CD-ROMs come to mind).
    Installation is a lot easier:
    insert the CD and off you go, with the builtin OSF-USR
    PAK you can run root with GUI and everything seamlessly,
    no need to enter silly checksums in the first place.
    The non-commercial OSF-BASE license you need for
    multiuser operation, but you don't have to renew it.
    Tru64 is Unix, which means you can compile freeware
    from the Linux pool relatively easy.
    Disadvantage: it's dead. But so is alpha.


  7. Re: OpenVMS vs. Tru64?

    On 19 sep, 20:48, Michael Kraemer wrote:
    > H Vlems schrieb:
    >
    > > I'm biased if not prejudiced in favor of VMS but even then I think
    > > it's fair to say that hobbyist use of VMS
    > > is a lot easier and cheaper than running Tru64 at home.

    >
    > The opposite is true, IMHO.
    > Tru64 support for alphas is better than VMS
    > (some graphic cards and IDE CD-ROMs come to mind).
    > Installation is a lot easier:
    > insert the CD and off you go, with the builtin OSF-USR
    > PAK you can run root with GUI and everything seamlessly,
    > no need to enter silly checksums in the first place.
    > The non-commercial OSF-BASE license you need for
    > multiuser operation, but you don't have to renew it.
    > Tru64 is Unix, which means you can compile freeware
    > from the Linux pool relatively easy.
    > Disadvantage: it's dead. But so is alpha.


    Michael, your reasoning is quite sound, but really depends on
    experience.
    Installing VMS is dead simple, can do it in my sleep and installing
    licenses
    is no trouble at all because the Montagar licenses install themselves
    since they come
    in the form of a DCL script. OTOH even though I have quite some
    experience installing
    Linux and Ultrix-32 it took me several attempts to get Tru64 V5.0
    running with DECnet and IP.
    So the installation process of Tru64 proved to be a real pain while
    Linux is easy and VMS routine.
    Reason: Tru64 installations < 5, Linux approx. 40 and VMS >> 300 (I
    guess).
    And I'm still looking for DECnet phase IV for Tru64 (if it exists at
    all) :-(
    YMMV !
    Hans

  8. Re: OpenVMS vs. Tru64?

    H Vlems schrieb:

    >
    > Michael, your reasoning is quite sound, but really depends on
    > experience.
    > Installing VMS is dead simple, can do it in my sleep and installing
    > licenses
    > is no trouble at all because the Montagar licenses install themselves
    > since they come
    > in the form of a DCL script.


    Yes, but to get it onto the machine, you need sth like ftp.
    Which is secured by a PAK, at least until version 7.x.
    Kind of a hen-and-egg situation.

    > OTOH even though I have quite some
    > experience installing
    > Linux and Ultrix-32 it took me several attempts to get Tru64 V5.0
    > running with DECnet and IP.


    DECnet is special of course.
    IP was no problem, the menu-guided installation
    I found to be rather painless.

    > So the installation process of Tru64 proved to be a real pain while
    > Linux is easy and VMS routine.
    > Reason: Tru64 installations < 5, Linux approx. 40 and VMS >> 300 (I
    > guess).
    > And I'm still looking for DECnet phase IV for Tru64 (if it exists at
    > all) :-(


    DECnet plus can be found on various SPL CDs,
    but this you probably know.
    According to my catalog there's a "DECnet/OSI" for 4.0C at least,
    don't know if it helps, I know almost nothing about DECnet.

    > YMMV !
    > Hans



  9. Re: OpenVMS vs. Tru64?

    On 2008-09-20 01:40, "Michael Kraemer" wrote:

    > H Vlems schrieb:
    >
    >> Michael, your reasoning is quite sound, but really depends on
    >> experience.
    >> Installing VMS is dead simple, can do it in my sleep and installing
    >> licenses
    >> is no trouble at all because the Montagar licenses install themselves
    >> since they come
    >> in the form of a DCL script.

    >
    > Yes, but to get it onto the machine, you need sth like ftp.
    > Which is secured by a PAK, at least until version 7.x.
    > Kind of a hen-and-egg situation.


    Not really ...

    Establish a PuTTY terminal session from a PC to the console port, invoke
    an editor, and cut'n'paste Montagar's license procedure into the
    editor's window. (At least for the base and UCX/TCP-IP-Services licenses.)

    > [...]


    Michael

    --
    Real names enhance the probability of getting real answers.
    My e-mail account at DECUS Munich is no longer valid.

  10. Re: OpenVMS vs. Tru64?

    On Fri, 19 Sep 2008 23:40:59 UTC, Michael Kraemer
    wrote:

    > H Vlems schrieb:
    > >
    > > Michael, your reasoning is quite sound, but really depends on
    > > experience.
    > > Installing VMS is dead simple, can do it in my sleep and installing
    > > licenses
    > > is no trouble at all because the Montagar licenses install themselves
    > > since they come
    > > in the form of a DCL script.

    >
    > Yes, but to get it onto the machine, you need sth like ftp.
    > Which is secured by a PAK, at least until version 7.x.
    > Kind of a hen-and-egg situation.


    Except that a CD works pretty well.



  11. Re: OpenVMS vs. Tru64?

    On Sep 20, 1:40*am, Michael Kraemer wrote:
    > H Vlems schrieb:
    >
    >
    >
    > > Michael, your reasoning is quite sound, but really depends on
    > > experience.
    > > Installing VMS is dead simple, can do it in my sleep and installing
    > > licenses
    > > is no trouble at all because the Montagar licenses install themselves
    > > since they come
    > > in the form of a DCL script.

    >
    > Yes, but to get it onto the machine, you need sth like ftp.
    > Which is secured by a PAK, at least until version 7.x.
    > Kind of a hen-and-egg situation.
    >


    That is one way of doing it, but it is also possible to store the
    Montagar
    PAK's on a PC or another VMS system and cut-and-paste contencts from
    one
    terminal emulator window to another. All systems have a serial port
    and LAT runs
    without a license. An RX23 floppy or CD works as well.

    >
    > > OTOH even though I have quite some
    > > experience installing
    > > Linux and Ultrix-32 it took me several attempts to get Tru64 V5.0
    > > running with DECnet and IP.

    >
    > DECnet is special of course.
    > IP was no problem, the menu-guided installation
    > I found to be rather painless.


    Configuring IP on a unix system is basically not difficult but is done
    differently.

    >
    > > So the installation process of Tru64 proved to be a real pain while
    > > Linux is easy and VMS routine.
    > > Reason: Tru64 installations < 5, Linux approx. 40 and VMS >> 300 (I
    > > guess).
    > > And I'm still looking for DECnet phase IV for Tru64 (if it exists at
    > > all) :-(

    >
    > DECnet plus can be found on various SPL CDs,
    > but this you probably know.
    > According to my catalog there's a "DECnet/OSI" for 4.0C at least,
    > don't know if it helps, I know almost nothing about DECnet.
    >
    > > YMMV !
    > > Hans


    I run DECnet plus (or phase V) on the Tru64 5.0 system. Although I
    like
    DECnet plus for its configuration flexibility and the way it is
    designed, it
    is also a lot more difficult to remember all the layer-specific
    commands.
    So at home I run phase IV, and I'd rather have that on Tru64 as well.
    But I don't know whether it even exists.

    Hans

  12. Re: OpenVMS vs. Tru64?

    In article <6jjrg0F3l6g9U1@mid.individual.net>,
    Michael Unger writes:
    > On 2008-09-20 01:40, "Michael Kraemer" wrote:
    >
    >> H Vlems schrieb:
    >>
    >>> Michael, your reasoning is quite sound, but really depends on
    >>> experience.
    >>> Installing VMS is dead simple, can do it in my sleep and installing
    >>> licenses
    >>> is no trouble at all because the Montagar licenses install themselves
    >>> since they come
    >>> in the form of a DCL script.

    >>
    >> Yes, but to get it onto the machine, you need sth like ftp.
    >> Which is secured by a PAK, at least until version 7.x.
    >> Kind of a hen-and-egg situation.

    >
    > Not really ...
    >
    > Establish a PuTTY terminal session from a PC to the console port, invoke
    > an editor, and cut'n'paste Montagar's license procedure into the
    > editor's window. (At least for the base and UCX/TCP-IP-Services licenses.)


    Blasphemy!! He shouldn't have a PC connected to the console. It should
    be an LA or VT Terminal.

    Of course, it is interesting that people here talk about how easy VMSX is
    to install and that Windows is such a piece of crap and then tell someone
    they need a box running Windows in order to get their VMS system running!!

    bill

    --
    Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
    billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
    University of Scranton |
    Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include

  13. Re: OpenVMS vs. Tru64?

    On 2008-09-20 15:13, "Bill Gunshannon" wrote:

    > [...]
    >
    > Of course, it is interesting that people here talk about how easy VMSX is
    > to install and that Windows is such a piece of crap and then tell someone
    > they need a box running Windows in order to get their VMS system running!!


    There is no need to run Windows at all -- take your favourite flavour of
    Linux, *BSD, Solaris, ...

    Michael

    --
    Real names enhance the probability of getting real answers.
    My e-mail account at DECUS Munich is no longer valid.

  14. Re: OpenVMS vs. Tru64?

    On Sat, 20 Sep 2008 13:30:31 UTC, Michael Unger
    wrote:

    > On 2008-09-20 15:13, "Bill Gunshannon" wrote:
    >
    > > [...]
    > >
    > > Of course, it is interesting that people here talk about how easy VMSX is
    > > to install and that Windows is such a piece of crap and then tell someone
    > > they need a box running Windows in order to get their VMS system running!!

    >
    > There is no need to run Windows at all -- take your favourite flavour of
    > Linux, *BSD, Solaris, ...


    I tend to use an ancient IBM plasma screen 'portable' - and DOS.


  15. Re: OpenVMS vs. Tru64?

    On Sep 20, 3:13*pm, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
    > In article <6jjrg0F3l6g...@mid.individual.net>,
    > * * * * Michael Unger writes:
    >
    >
    >
    > > On 2008-09-20 01:40, "Michael Kraemer" wrote:

    >
    > >> H Vlems schrieb:

    >
    > >>> Michael, your reasoning is quite sound, but really depends on
    > >>> experience.
    > >>> Installing VMS is dead simple, can do it in my sleep and installing
    > >>> licenses
    > >>> is no trouble at all because the Montagar licenses install themselves
    > >>> since they come
    > >>> in the form of a DCL script.

    >
    > >> Yes, but to get it onto the machine, you need sth like ftp.
    > >> Which is secured by a PAK, at least until version 7.x.
    > >> Kind of a hen-and-egg situation.

    >
    > > Not really ...

    >
    > > Establish a PuTTY terminal session from a PC to the console port, invoke
    > > an editor, and cut'n'paste Montagar's license procedure into the
    > > editor's window. (At least for the base and UCX/TCP-IP-Services licenses.)

    >
    > Blasphemy!! *He shouldn't have a PC connected to the console. *It should
    > be an LA or VT Terminal. *
    >
    > Of course, it is interesting that people here talk about how easy VMSX is
    > to install and that Windows is such a piece of crap and then tell someone
    > they need a box running Windows in order to get their VMS system running!!
    >
    > bill
    >
    > --
    > Bill Gunshannon * * * * *| *de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. *Three wolves
    > billg...@cs.scranton.edu | *and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
    > University of Scranton * |
    > Scranton, Pennsylvania * | * * * * #include *


    Bill,
    running Windows XP on a PC with 8 or 10 serial interfaces is a lot
    easier on the power bill than separate consoles.
    Linux might be an alternative but I find Reflection X very easy to
    use.
    Other than that, blasphemy is not too far off I guess....
    Hans

  16. Re: OpenVMS vs. Tru64?

    Bill Gunshannon schrieb:

    >
    > Blasphemy!! He shouldn't have a PC connected to the console. It should
    > be an LA or VT Terminal.
    >
    > Of course, it is interesting that people here talk about how easy VMSX is
    > to install and that Windows is such a piece of crap and then tell someone
    > they need a box running Windows in order to get their VMS system running!!


    This is exactly my point.
    People keep telling me how superior VMS is over everything
    else, but I'd need a lame PC to get it up and running.
    Basically this means that VMS can't even stand on its own feet
    anymore.
    I could remotely understand this for a server,
    but for a workstation like the XP1000, which is sort
    of the alpha desktops last hooray, it is indeed sheer blasphemy.
    One should take a look at other platforms: AIX, HP-UX, Solaris,
    even Tru64 and Ultrix: no need for steenking PC to install
    the respective workstations. It's only the machine, the CD set
    and me to get them up and running. On a scale which measures
    ease of installation until GUI and networking is running,
    VMS takes the absolute bottom notch, IMHO.


  17. Re: OpenVMS vs. Tru64?

    In article <6jkh28F3m56qU1@mid.individual.net>,
    Michael Unger writes:
    > On 2008-09-20 15:13, "Bill Gunshannon" wrote:
    >
    >> [...]
    >>
    >> Of course, it is interesting that people here talk about how easy VMSX is
    >> to install and that Windows is such a piece of crap and then tell someone
    >> they need a box running Windows in order to get their VMS system running!!

    >
    > There is no need to run Windows at all -- take your favourite flavour of
    > Linux, *BSD, Solaris, ...



    Anything but VMS? You do realize that no other OS requires you to
    have a second, different OS in order to reasonably install their product.

    bill

    --
    Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
    billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
    University of Scranton |
    Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include

  18. Re: OpenVMS vs. Tru64?

    Michael Kraemer schrieb:
    > Bill Gunshannon schrieb:
    >
    >>
    >> Blasphemy!! He shouldn't have a PC connected to the console. It should
    >> be an LA or VT Terminal.
    >> Of course, it is interesting that people here talk about how easy VMSX is
    >> to install and that Windows is such a piece of crap and then tell someone
    >> they need a box running Windows in order to get their VMS system
    >> running!!

    >
    > This is exactly my point.
    > People keep telling me how superior VMS is over everything
    > else, but I'd need a lame PC to get it up and running.
    > Basically this means that VMS can't even stand on its own feet
    > anymore.
    > I could remotely understand this for a server,
    > but for a workstation like the XP1000, which is sort
    > of the alpha desktops last hooray, it is indeed sheer blasphemy.
    > One should take a look at other platforms: AIX, HP-UX, Solaris,
    > even Tru64 and Ultrix: no need for steenking PC to install
    > the respective workstations. It's only the machine, the CD set
    > and me to get them up and running. On a scale which measures
    > ease of installation until GUI and networking is running,
    > VMS takes the absolute bottom notch, IMHO.
    >


    That's complete nonsense, for an Alpha workstation it also doesn't need
    more than the machine, the (single) CD, and me to install VMS.
    The whole discussion started with the question how to avoid typing in
    the license data for the network stack 'by hand'.
    The system using for cut/paste of the license data can as well be any
    other VMS system, no need for alien systems.
    The whole question of licenses for hobbyist systems is annoying, Yes,
    but does not make it impossible to install VMS on a workstation without
    the help of another system!

    --

    Joseph Huber - http://www.huber-joseph.de

  19. Re: OpenVMS vs. Tru64?

    "Bill Gunshannon" wrote in message
    news:6jkqjoF3ode5U1@mid.individual.net...
    >
    > Anything but VMS? You do realize that no other OS requires you to
    > have a second, different OS in order to reasonably install their product.
    >
    > bill
    >
    > --
    > Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
    > billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
    > University of Scranton |
    > Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include



    You could of course have VMS connected as the console...

    I have a problem getting any *nix OS onto my Alpha's because I do not run it
    on Intel hardware as well... I have yet to find a bootable install for Alpha
    of NetBSD, Linux, etc. I would love to play with it but my 2 Alpha's are
    the only hardware I have available to play with... my Windows boxes need to
    stay Windows and working (one to support the office, it is their machine
    after all and one for the kids and wife to play with).

    Every install I have seen says to use an existing system and net boot from
    it. The last time I looked into this was a year ago or so, but I don't
    think much has changed on the Alpha side since then. I have install media
    (many copies, actually) for VMS for (one of) those Alpha's. I have install
    media for Win2000RC2 for the other. Since I can play with VMS at work, I
    would like to set one or both of these up at home with a *nix, but have not
    been able to get there yet. None of the other hardware I have collected has
    been able to get me there. My most recent attempt was Ubuntu on my parents
    old Compaq machine, but the install never starts.


  20. Re: OpenVMS vs. Tru64?

    In article ,
    Michael Kraemer wrote:

    > the respective workstations. It's only the machine, the CD set
    > and me to get them up and running. On a scale which measures
    > ease of installation until GUI and networking is running,
    > VMS takes the absolute bottom notch, IMHO.


    Have you tried it? If VMS comes on CD, you only need a serial terminal
    to load it.

    --
    Don't bother with piddly crap like "gun control".
    Life is 100% fatal. Ban it.

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