DSSI to BA23 question - DEC

This is a discussion on DSSI to BA23 question - DEC ; Hi, I've a BA23 so far configured with a KA650, MS650 16mb ram, and VCB02 4plane. I'm wishing to learn about DSSI using the KFQSA controller. I successfully installed and configured a KFQSA into the system this evening. The controller ...

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Thread: DSSI to BA23 question

  1. DSSI to BA23 question


    Hi,

    I've a BA23 so far configured with a KA650, MS650 16mb ram, and
    VCB02 4plane. I'm wishing to learn about DSSI using the KFQSA
    controller. I successfully installed and configured a KFQSA into the
    system this evening. The controller is the only DSSI component that
    I have.

    I don't know where to go from here, or even if I can go further.
    DSSI info appears scant.

    I've determined that I'd need cable 17-01835 that goes from the
    KFQSA to the rear panel -- apparently if I had an external DSSI box.

    SO, my questions are:
    -- what external DSSI boxes might one use here?
    -- or... is it possible to rig a DSSI drive to run with direct
    cabling, eg. if a DSSI
    drive had a Berg50 connector and standard power connector
    like a SCSI drive,
    I could easily cable up one directly.

    Thanks very for any help that can be offered.

    JS


  2. Re: DSSI to BA23 question

    On Mar 15, 7:20*pm, MdntTrain wrote:
    > Hi,
    >
    > * * I've a BA23 so far configured with a KA650, MS650 16mb ram, and
    > VCB02 4plane. *I'm wishing to learn about DSSI using the KFQSA
    > controller. * I successfully installed and configured a KFQSA into the
    > system this evening. * The controller is the only DSSI component that
    > I have.
    >
    > * * I don't know where to go from here, or even if I can go further.
    > DSSI info appears scant.
    >
    > * * I've determined that I'd need cable 17-01835 that goes from the
    > KFQSA to the rear panel -- apparently if I had an external DSSI box.
    >
    > * * SO, my questions are:
    > * * * *-- what external DSSI boxes might one use here?
    > * * * *-- or... is it possible to rig a DSSI drive to run with direct
    > cabling, eg. if a DSSI
    > * * * * * *drive had a Berg50 connector and standard power connector
    > like a SCSI drive,
    > * * * * * *I could easily cable up one directly.
    >
    > Thanks very for any help that can be offered.
    >
    > * JS


    If you can find a RF215 or a RF400X expansion box these will work
    great with your setup. Every now and then 1 shows up on e-bay. The 215
    holds 3 dssi drives and the 400 can hold 6 drives, or 5 drives and a
    TF series tape drive.
    phillip

  3. Re: DSSI to BA23 question

    On Mar 15, 7:20*pm, MdntTrain wrote:
    > Hi,
    >
    > * * I've a BA23 so far configured with a KA650, MS650 16mb ram, and
    > VCB02 4plane. *I'm wishing to learn about DSSI using the KFQSA
    > controller. * I successfully installed and configured a KFQSA into the
    > system this evening. * The controller is the only DSSI component that
    > I have.
    >
    > * * I don't know where to go from here, or even if I can go further.
    > DSSI info appears scant.
    >
    > * * I've determined that I'd need cable 17-01835 that goes from the
    > KFQSA to the rear panel -- apparently if I had an external DSSI box.
    >
    > * * SO, my questions are:
    > * * * *-- what external DSSI boxes might one use here?
    > * * * *-- or... is it possible to rig a DSSI drive to run with direct
    > cabling, eg. if a DSSI
    > * * * * * *drive had a Berg50 connector and standard power connector
    > like a SCSI drive,
    > * * * * * *I could easily cable up one directly.
    >
    > Thanks very for any help that can be offered.
    >
    > * JS


    Hello
    Made a mistake, its just a R215 or a B400/R400 not a RF/BF.
    phil

  4. Re: DSSI to BA23 question

    On Mar 16, 9:44*am, "tomarsin2...@comcast.net"
    wrote:
    > On Mar 15, 7:20*pm, MdntTrain wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > > Hi,

    >
    > > * * I've a BA23 so far configured with a KA650, MS650 16mb ram, and
    > > VCB02 4plane. *I'm wishing to learn about DSSI using the KFQSA
    > > controller. * I successfully installed and configured a KFQSA into the
    > > system this evening. * The controller is the only DSSI component that
    > > I have.

    >
    > > * * I don't know where to go from here, or even if I can go further.
    > > DSSI info appears scant.

    >
    > > * * I've determined that I'd need cable 17-01835 that goes from the
    > > KFQSA to the rear panel -- apparently if I had an external DSSI box.

    >
    > > * * SO, my questions are:
    > > * * * *-- what external DSSI boxes might one use here?
    > > * * * *-- or... is it possible to rig a DSSI drive to run with direct
    > > cabling, eg. if a DSSI
    > > * * * * * *drive had a Berg50 connector and standard power connector
    > > like a SCSI drive,
    > > * * * * * *I could easily cable up one directly.

    >
    > > Thanks very for any help that can be offered.

    >
    > > * JS

    >
    > Hello
    > Made a mistake, its just a R215 or a B400/R400 not a RF/BF.
    > phil- Hide quoted text -
    >
    > - Show quoted text -


    Phil, do you mean R215F-BA?

    JS

  5. Re: DSSI to BA23 question


    Interesting suggestions, Phil and Kari.

    Which option would result in a physically smaller setup? Space is
    tight. I seem to think I saw somewhere that the R215F is the same
    size as a BA215.. fairly large just for 3 drives... though I'm not
    sure about that.

    JS

  6. Re: DSSI to BA23 question


    If you do figure out these details, please let me know. Regardless of
    what exernal options exist, I'm trying to do the same thing that you
    are -- attach DSSI drives inside a BA23 to a KFQSA also installed in
    that same BA23.

    Part of the problem with externally attaching an enclosure is that you
    need to track down a BA23/BA123 cabkit for the KFQSA, which is rare as
    hen's teeth.

    KFQSA's are not terribly difficult to come by. They're typically
    pulled from a BA213-type enclosure, so the easiest route that I can
    see is to track down a set of that BA213 internal cabling, so you can
    fake it in a BA23. I don't know what that set of cabling is called,
    though.

    Chris



  7. Re: DSSI to BA23 question

    On Mar 16, 6:34*pm, ChrisKalisiak wrote:
    > If you do figure out these details, please let me know. Regardless of
    > what exernal options exist, I'm trying to do the same thing that you
    > are -- attach DSSI drives inside a BA23 to a KFQSA also installed in
    > that same BA23.
    >
    > Part of the problem with externally attaching an enclosure is that you
    > need to track down a BA23/BA123 cabkit for the KFQSA, which is rare as
    > hen's teeth.
    >
    > KFQSA's are not terribly difficult to come by. They're typically
    > pulled from a BA213-type enclosure, so the easiest route that I can
    > see is to track down a set of that BA213 internal cabling, so you can
    > fake it in a BA23. I don't know what that set of cabling is called,
    > though.
    >
    > Chris


    I've not seen a DSSI drive yet. Do you know what kind of connectors
    they have? Certainly would make life easy if they looked like a
    regular SCSI drive with Berg50 + 4 pin molex power.

    JS

  8. Re: DSSI to BA23 question

    On Mar 16, 5:57*pm, MdntTrain wrote:
    > On Mar 16, 6:34*pm, ChrisKalisiak wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > > If you do figure out these details, please let me know. Regardless of
    > > what exernal options exist, I'm trying to do the same thing that you
    > > are -- attach DSSI drives inside a BA23 to a KFQSA also installed in
    > > that same BA23.

    >
    > > Part of the problem with externally attaching an enclosure is that you
    > > need to track down a BA23/BA123 cabkit for the KFQSA, which is rare as
    > > hen's teeth.

    >
    > > KFQSA's are not terribly difficult to come by. They're typically
    > > pulled from a BA213-type enclosure, so the easiest route that I can
    > > see is to track down a set of that BA213 internal cabling, so you can
    > > fake it in a BA23. I don't know what that set of cabling is called,
    > > though.

    >
    > > Chris

    >
    > I've not seen a DSSI drive yet. *Do you know what kind of connectors
    > they have? * *Certainly would make life easy if they looked like a
    > regular SCSI drive with Berg50 + 4 pin molex power.
    >
    > *JS- Hide quoted text -
    >
    > - Show quoted text -


    Hello
    Yes its a R215f-BA expansion box. It is the same as a BA215. Looks
    alot like a 4000-200 model. The DSSI connector is a 50 pin. What will
    get you is the power connector. Its not the standard "pc" type
    connector. The 215 will support 3 full height drives or 2 and a tape
    drive. I still have
    several thats connected to a 4000-100A.
    phil

  9. Re: DSSI to BA23 question

    On Mar 16, 10:27*pm, "tomarsin2...@comcast.net"
    wrote:
    > On Mar 16, 5:57*pm, MdntTrain wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > > On Mar 16, 6:34*pm, ChrisKalisiak wrote:

    >
    > > > If you do figure out these details, please let me know. Regardless of
    > > > what exernal options exist, I'm trying to do the same thing that you
    > > > are -- attach DSSI drives inside a BA23 to a KFQSA also installed in
    > > > that same BA23.

    >
    > > > Part of the problem with externally attaching an enclosure is that you
    > > > need to track down a BA23/BA123 cabkit for the KFQSA, which is rare as
    > > > hen's teeth.

    >
    > > > KFQSA's are not terribly difficult to come by. They're typically
    > > > pulled from a BA213-type enclosure, so the easiest route that I can
    > > > see is to track down a set of that BA213 internal cabling, so you can
    > > > fake it in a BA23. I don't know what that set of cabling is called,
    > > > though.

    >
    > > > Chris

    >
    > > I've not seen a DSSI drive yet. *Do you know what kind of connectors
    > > they have? * *Certainly would make life easy if they looked like a
    > > regular SCSI drive with Berg50 + 4 pin molex power.

    >
    > > *JS- Hide quoted text -

    >
    > > - Show quoted text -

    >
    > Hello
    > Yes its a R215f-BA expansion box. It is the same as a BA215. Looks
    > alot like a 4000-200 model. The DSSI connector is a 50 pin. What will
    > get you is the power connector. Its not the standard "pc" type
    > connector. The 215 will support 3 full height drives or 2 and a tape
    > drive. I still have
    > several thats connected to a 4000-100A.
    > phil- Hide quoted text -
    >
    > - Show quoted text -


    Ok, I actually found some doc on the R215F. I'm scratching my head
    over it because it's this fairly large box (by scsi standards) that's
    mostly empty... that only holds three drives.. just as a normal
    BA215. Seems they could have made a short box consisting of the
    upper part only and a flat power supply on the bottom.

    Kari's suggestion re Storageworks is a cool one... but I am hoping to
    run real DSSI drives .. my project is more authenticity oriented than
    good sense oriented.. ;-)

    R215F seems the most elegant way to go as it's what DEC intended, but
    as Chris wrote, there's the problem of finding a DSSI controller card
    cable. Then I'd need the cable from that to the DSSI cabinet... then
    a terminator. So i'm still hoping to rig up a single drive directly,
    and just power the drive with a PC power supply.

    Good to hear about 50pin data connector. If the drive runs on +5 and
    +12 volts, I'm sure something could be rigged to power it. So the
    only remaining questions would be termination, ID selection, and
    whether the front panel is needed. On SCSI, termination and ID can
    be done on the drive itself. Again, never seeing a DSSI drive, I
    don't know what's possible there. Clearly, termination was never done
    on the DSSI drive.. so that could be the biggest problem.. unless a
    scsi terminator on the cable would work.

    JS


  10. Re: DSSI to BA23 question

    MdntTrain wrote:
    > On Mar 16, 10:27 pm, "tomarsin2...@comcast.net"
    > wrote:
    >> On Mar 16, 5:57 pm, MdntTrain wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>> On Mar 16, 6:34 pm, ChrisKalisiak wrote:
    >>>> If you do figure out these details, please let me know. Regardless of
    >>>> what exernal options exist, I'm trying to do the same thing that you
    >>>> are -- attach DSSI drives inside a BA23 to a KFQSA also installed in
    >>>> that same BA23.
    >>>> Part of the problem with externally attaching an enclosure is that you
    >>>> need to track down a BA23/BA123 cabkit for the KFQSA, which is rare as
    >>>> hen's teeth.
    >>>> KFQSA's are not terribly difficult to come by. They're typically
    >>>> pulled from a BA213-type enclosure, so the easiest route that I can
    >>>> see is to track down a set of that BA213 internal cabling, so you can
    >>>> fake it in a BA23. I don't know what that set of cabling is called,
    >>>> though.
    >>>> Chris
    >>> I've not seen a DSSI drive yet. Do you know what kind of connectors
    >>> they have? Certainly would make life easy if they looked like a
    >>> regular SCSI drive with Berg50 + 4 pin molex power.
    >>> JS- Hide quoted text -
    >>> - Show quoted text -

    >> Hello
    >> Yes its a R215f-BA expansion box. It is the same as a BA215. Looks
    >> alot like a 4000-200 model. The DSSI connector is a 50 pin. What will
    >> get you is the power connector. Its not the standard "pc" type
    >> connector. The 215 will support 3 full height drives or 2 and a tape
    >> drive. I still have
    >> several thats connected to a 4000-100A.
    >> phil- Hide quoted text -
    >>
    >> - Show quoted text -

    >
    > Ok, I actually found some doc on the R215F. I'm scratching my head
    > over it because it's this fairly large box (by scsi standards) that's
    > mostly empty... that only holds three drives.. just as a normal
    > BA215. Seems they could have made a short box consisting of the
    > upper part only and a flat power supply on the bottom.
    >
    > Kari's suggestion re Storageworks is a cool one... but I am hoping to
    > run real DSSI drives .. my project is more authenticity oriented than
    > good sense oriented.. ;-)
    >
    > R215F seems the most elegant way to go as it's what DEC intended, but
    > as Chris wrote, there's the problem of finding a DSSI controller card
    > cable. Then I'd need the cable from that to the DSSI cabinet... then
    > a terminator. So i'm still hoping to rig up a single drive directly,
    > and just power the drive with a PC power supply.
    >
    > Good to hear about 50pin data connector. If the drive runs on +5 and
    > +12 volts, I'm sure something could be rigged to power it. So the
    > only remaining questions would be termination, ID selection, and
    > whether the front panel is needed. On SCSI, termination and ID can
    > be done on the drive itself. Again, never seeing a DSSI drive, I
    > don't know what's possible there. Clearly, termination was never done
    > on the DSSI drive.. so that could be the biggest problem.. unless a
    > scsi terminator on the cable would work.
    >
    > JS
    >



    There are two boxes where you can put "real" DSSI drives. The R215F and
    the R400X. In the former you can fit up to three DSSI drives and in the
    latter you can fit up to thirteen DSSI disk drives (or twelve disk
    drives and one DSSI tape drive) on two DSSI buses. The R215F has a
    smaller footprint as well.
    You'll surely find more information about the expansion boxes and the
    DSSI disk drives, when you read the manuals. Probably the best place to
    find (DEC) manuals is vt100.net.

    The DSSI drives have a 50-pin connector, which looks like a 50-pin SCSI
    connector. The power connector is not a 4-pin connector like on SCSI
    drives, but it is a 5-pin connector.

    There are many different DSSI disk drives from which to choose. Some to
    mention:
    RF31F, 200MB, 5.25", half-height;
    RF31E, 318MB, 5.25", half-height;
    RF35, 852MB, 3.5", half-height;
    RF72, 1GB, 5.25", full-height;
    RF73, 2GB, 5.25", full-height.

    All of these will fit into either of the expansion boxes. You need the
    appropriate rail kits (and the front panels with the run and write
    protection switches), too. To be able to install the greatest amount of
    DSSI disks you need the double disk rails for the RF35's (where you
    fasten two disks into one pair of rails).
    I don't remember if the disk drive manual covers the rails also, but
    check the VAX4000-200/300/400/500/600/700 manuals.

    Good luck with your hobby!

    Regards,

    Kari







  11. Re: DSSI to BA23 question

    hello
    If you cannot find some pictures of the above boxes and or drives let
    me know. I may even beable to let a RF35 go. Let me know.
    phillip

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