Wide drives on VAXstation 4000-60 - DEC

This is a discussion on Wide drives on VAXstation 4000-60 - DEC ; I have a need to set up a VAX test environment with 4GB drives. I have a VAXstation 4000-60 available as the test bed. Unfortunately, I do not have narrow RZ29 drives. I do have several RZ29B-VWs available. I know ...

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Thread: Wide drives on VAXstation 4000-60

  1. Wide drives on VAXstation 4000-60

    I have a need to set up a VAX test environment with 4GB drives. I have
    a VAXstation 4000-60 available as the test bed. Unfortunately, I do not
    have narrow RZ29 drives.

    I do have several RZ29B-VWs available.

    I know I can't use RZ29B-VWs in a BA350. (I tried it anyways, it still
    doesn't work.)

    I set up a BA356 with a BA35X-MG (8 bit) card. (There are previous
    usenet reports of this working with RZ29B-VWs and a MicroVAX 3100/98.)

    With the BA35X-MG card, the VAXstation 4000-60 can still only see narrow
    drives in the BA356. It does not see the RZ29B-VWs, even if one of
    these is the only drive in the chassis.

    The BA356 appears to be terminated correctly. It has a 16 bit
    terminator behind slot 1 and no card behind slot 7.

    Can anyone provide a suggestion on how to get this to work? Is there
    some switch setting I am missing?

    Thanx!

    --
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Chris Scheers, Applied Synergy, Inc.

    Voice: 817-237-3360 Internet: chris@applied-synergy.com
    Fax: 817-237-3074

  2. Re: Wide drives on VAXstation 4000-60

    On 2008-02-29, Chris Scheers wrote:
    > Can anyone provide a suggestion on how to get this to work? Is there
    > some switch setting I am missing?


    Make certain you've set the drive address to the range 0 through 7.
    Drives are selected on SCSI using data bus bits, so with a narrow SCSI
    you can't select an address higher than 7.

    I have used a wide drive on a narrow machine; it's been a while, so I
    don't recall offhand whether it was a VAX or an Alpha. The drive that I
    used was (IIRC) some flavor of Barracuda pulled from a dead SparcStation
    of some sort. It had a single fine-pitch connector for SCSI, power, and
    drive select jumpers. I found an adapter on the net that plugged into
    the drive to pull out an 8-bit SCSI, power to a Molex connector, and
    provide push-on jumpers for drive select. With that adapter on the
    drive, I was able to simply mount it in the machine and use the internal
    SCSI cable to talk to the thing.
    --
    roger rivie
    rivie@ridgenet.net

  3. Re: Wide drives on VAXstation 4000-60

    On 2008-02-29 06:23:42 +0000, Chris Scheers said:

    > Can anyone provide a suggestion on how to get this to work? Is there
    > some switch setting I am missing?


    I'm currently running a wide Seagate Baracuda ST34371W in a uVAX
    3100-30. The trick is to ensure you're using an active terminator at
    the end of the chain and that you've got term-power enabled on the
    drive.

    Gary


  4. Re: Wide drives on VAXstation 4000-60

    On Feb 29, 1:23*am, Chris Scheers wrote:
    > Can anyone provide a suggestion on how to get this to work? *Is there
    > some switch setting I am missing?


    I remember there was this DWZZA thing, but I never used one. I
    believe it will allow you to connect the VS4000 to a BA356 without the
    BA35X.

    More info here:
    http://vt100.net/mirror/mds-199909/c...e/dwzzauga.pdf

    Then, you'd also have to go out and find one. Perhaps eBay or Island?

  5. Re: Wide drives on VAXstation 4000-60

    FrankS wrote:
    > On Feb 29, 1:23 am, Chris Scheers wrote:
    >> Can anyone provide a suggestion on how to get this to work? Is there
    >> some switch setting I am missing?

    >
    > I remember there was this DWZZA thing, but I never used one. I
    > believe it will allow you to connect the VS4000 to a BA356 without the
    > BA35X.
    >
    > More info here:
    > http://vt100.net/mirror/mds-199909/c...e/dwzzauga.pdf
    >
    > Then, you'd also have to go out and find one. Perhaps eBay or Island?


    In fact, the DWZZ*'s are Differential to Sigle-ended converters.
    DWZZA converts a 8-bit ("narrow") SE bus to a Differential bus and the
    DWZZB converts a 16-bit ("wide") SE bus to Differential.

    Usually they are used to connect a Differential Host Bus Adapter to a
    BA350 (8-bit) or to a BA356 (16-bit). In the former case would the DWZZA
    be the right converter and in the latter case the DWZZB.

    But in the actual case it is not needed.


  6. Re: Wide drives on VAXstation 4000-60

    In article <47cc42ec$0$15002$9b536df3@news.fv.fi>,
    Uusimäki writes:
    >
    > In fact, the DWZZ*'s are Differential to Sigle-ended converters.
    > DWZZA converts a 8-bit ("narrow") SE bus to a Differential bus



    I would assume they are LVD. There isn't by any chance a jumper
    somewhere on these that would make them work with HVD, is there? :-)

    bill

    --
    Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
    billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
    University of Scranton |
    Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include

  7. Re: Wide drives on VAXstation 4000-60

    On Mar 3, 1:32 pm, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
    > In article <47cc42ec$0$15002$9b536...@news.fv.fi>,
    > Uusimäki writes:
    >
    >
    >
    > > In fact, the DWZZ*'s are Differential to Sigle-ended converters.
    > > DWZZA converts a 8-bit ("narrow") SE bus to a Differential bus

    >
    > I would assume they are LVD. There isn't by any chance a jumper
    > somewhere on these that would make them work with HVD, is there? :-)
    >
    > bill
    >
    > --
    > Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
    > billg...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
    > University of Scranton |
    > Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include



    You assume wrongly. They convert HVD to SE and vice-versa. They pre-
    date LVD SCSI design.

  8. Re: Wide drives on VAXstation 4000-60

    In article <99d83675-214b-452c-9a31-c7e96428feab@e23g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
    "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" writes:
    > On Mar 3, 1:32 pm, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
    >> In article <47cc42ec$0$15002$9b536...@news.fv.fi>,
    >> Uusimäki writes:
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> > In fact, the DWZZ*'s are Differential to Sigle-ended converters.
    >> > DWZZA converts a 8-bit ("narrow") SE bus to a Differential bus

    >>
    >> I would assume they are LVD. There isn't by any chance a jumper
    >> somewhere on these that would make them work with HVD, is there? :-)

    >
    > You assume wrongly. They convert HVD to SE and vice-versa. They pre-
    > date LVD SCSI design.


    Ok, that's good news, kinda. I just looked and what I have are actually
    DWZZB's. Same thing apply? Why you ask? I actually have a HVD SCSI
    module for one of my PDP-11's but have been unable to actually find any
    HVD disks (well, at least that I couls afford!) Be nice if these could
    be used to hook up a BA3xx box to the PDP-11.

    bill

    --
    Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
    billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
    University of Scranton |
    Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include

  9. Re: Wide drives on VAXstation 4000-60

    Bill Gunshannon wrote:
    > In article <47cc42ec$0$15002$9b536df3@news.fv.fi>,
    > Uusimäki writes:
    >
    >>In fact, the DWZZ*'s are Differential to Sigle-ended converters.
    >>DWZZA converts a 8-bit ("narrow") SE bus to a Differential bus

    >
    >
    >
    > I would assume they are LVD. There isn't by any chance a jumper
    > somewhere on these that would make them work with HVD, is there? :-)
    >
    > bill
    >


    They should not be needed with LVD. LVD will ususually interoperate
    with single ended. If you connect HVD to single ended you get smoke!


  10. Re: Wide drives on VAXstation 4000-60

    Careful with "interoperate" there. LVD and SE signals do not quite coexist
    well on the same bus. A SCSI host adapter may handle either one or the other,
    and maybe both (jumper settable) but not both at the same time. The purpose of
    the SE jumper on an LVD drive is to force the drive into SE operation, because
    there is no guarantee that the SCSI startup negotiation protocol will end up
    with SE operation. This is especially true with the older and less flexible
    hardware like that which is being discussed here. A great many modern SCSI
    drives have SE jumpers, even the SCA-80 ones... Ben Myers

    On Mon, 03 Mar 2008 15:32:40 -0500, "Richard B. Gilbert"
    wrote:

    >Bill Gunshannon wrote:
    >> In article <47cc42ec$0$15002$9b536df3@news.fv.fi>,
    >> Uusimäki writes:
    >>
    >>>In fact, the DWZZ*'s are Differential to Sigle-ended converters.
    >>>DWZZA converts a 8-bit ("narrow") SE bus to a Differential bus

    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> I would assume they are LVD. There isn't by any chance a jumper
    >> somewhere on these that would make them work with HVD, is there? :-)
    >>
    >> bill
    >>

    >
    >They should not be needed with LVD. LVD will ususually interoperate
    >with single ended. If you connect HVD to single ended you get smoke!


  11. Re: Wide drives on VAXstation 4000-60

    Bill Gunshannon wrote:
    > In article <99d83675-214b-452c-9a31-c7e96428feab@e23g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
    > "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" writes:
    >> On Mar 3, 1:32 pm, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
    >>> In article <47cc42ec$0$15002$9b536...@news.fv.fi>,
    >>> Uusimäki writes:
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>> In fact, the DWZZ*'s are Differential to Sigle-ended converters.
    >>>> DWZZA converts a 8-bit ("narrow") SE bus to a Differential bus
    >>> I would assume they are LVD. There isn't by any chance a jumper
    >>> somewhere on these that would make them work with HVD, is there? :-)

    >> You assume wrongly. They convert HVD to SE and vice-versa. They pre-
    >> date LVD SCSI design.

    >
    > Ok, that's good news, kinda. I just looked and what I have are actually
    > DWZZB's. Same thing apply? Why you ask? I actually have a HVD SCSI
    > module for one of my PDP-11's but have been unable to actually find any
    > HVD disks (well, at least that I couls afford!) Be nice if these could
    > be used to hook up a BA3xx box to the PDP-11.
    >
    > bill
    >


    That's exactly what you can do with them. Put the DWZZ* into the BA35*
    and some disks into the box, plug the cable to the HVD SCSI adapter and
    there you go.
    I recommend you to read through the DWZZ* Users Guide (EK–DWZZX–UG). You
    find it on vt100.net.

    Regards,

    Kari



  12. Re: Wide drives on VAXstation 4000-60

    In article <47cc6a5b$0$14996$9b536df3@news.fv.fi>,
    =?windows-1252?Q?Uusim=E4ki?= writes:
    > Bill Gunshannon wrote:
    >> In article <99d83675-214b-452c-9a31-c7e96428feab@e23g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
    >> "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" writes:
    >>> On Mar 3, 1:32 pm, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
    >>>> In article <47cc42ec$0$15002$9b536...@news.fv.fi>,
    >>>> Uusimäki writes:
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>> In fact, the DWZZ*'s are Differential to Sigle-ended converters.
    >>>>> DWZZA converts a 8-bit ("narrow") SE bus to a Differential bus
    >>>> I would assume they are LVD. There isn't by any chance a jumper
    >>>> somewhere on these that would make them work with HVD, is there? :-)
    >>> You assume wrongly. They convert HVD to SE and vice-versa. They pre-
    >>> date LVD SCSI design.

    >>
    >> Ok, that's good news, kinda. I just looked and what I have are actually
    >> DWZZB's. Same thing apply? Why you ask? I actually have a HVD SCSI
    >> module for one of my PDP-11's but have been unable to actually find any
    >> HVD disks (well, at least that I couls afford!) Be nice if these could
    >> be used to hook up a BA3xx box to the PDP-11.
    >>
    >> bill
    >>

    >
    > That's exactly what you can do with them. Put the DWZZ* into the BA35*
    > and some disks into the box, plug the cable to the HVD SCSI adapter and
    > there you go.
    > I recommend you to read through the DWZZ* Users Guide (EK–DWZZX–UG).
    > You find it on vt100.net.


    My DWZZB's don't fit into a BA3xx they are little standalone boxes.
    Even have little feet. :-) I will have to come upw with some cables
    and give it a try. Hopefully, no smoke.

    bill

    --
    Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
    billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
    University of Scranton |
    Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include

  13. Solved: Wide drives on VAXstation 4000-60

    Chris Scheers wrote:
    > I have a need to set up a VAX test environment with 4GB drives. I have
    > a VAXstation 4000-60 available as the test bed. Unfortunately, I do not
    > have narrow RZ29 drives.
    >
    > I do have several RZ29B-VWs available.
    >
    > I know I can't use RZ29B-VWs in a BA350. (I tried it anyways, it still
    > doesn't work.)
    >
    > I set up a BA356 with a BA35X-MG (8 bit) card. (There are previous
    > usenet reports of this working with RZ29B-VWs and a MicroVAX 3100/98.)
    >
    > With the BA35X-MG card, the VAXstation 4000-60 can still only see narrow
    > drives in the BA356. It does not see the RZ29B-VWs, even if one of
    > these is the only drive in the chassis.
    >
    > The BA356 appears to be terminated correctly. It has a 16 bit
    > terminator behind slot 1 and no card behind slot 7.
    >
    > Can anyone provide a suggestion on how to get this to work? Is there
    > some switch setting I am missing?


    It turns out that it is necessary to have the "jumper" installed behind
    slot 6 (not slot 7).

    I had thought that in single bus mode, the jumper was just parked and
    wasn't actually used. In fact, narrow devices seem to work fine without
    the jumper.

    After adding the jumper, a mix of wide and narrow devices in the shelf
    all communicate properly with the VAXstation 4000-60.

    --
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Chris Scheers, Applied Synergy, Inc.

    Voice: 817-237-3360 Internet: chris@applied-synergy.com
    Fax: 817-237-3074

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