RSX-11S - DEC

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  1. RSX-11S

    Anyone here ever use RSX-11S? How was it generated/built?
    --
    Lee K. Gleason N5ZMR
    Control-G Consultants
    lee.gleason@comcast.net



  2. Re: RSX-11S

    Lee K. Gleason skrev:
    > Anyone here ever use RSX-11S? How was it generated/built?


    I have the distribution tape.

    It's built under RSX or VMS. Basically a normal SYSGEN, which results in a .TSK
    file, just like a normal RSX SYSGEN.

    But I haven't actually done it, so it's just what I've gathered from reading
    manuals and such...

    Johnny

    --
    Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
    || on a psychedelic trip
    email: bqt@softjar.se || Reading murder books
    pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

  3. Re: RSX-11S

    Johnny Billquist skrev:
    > Lee K. Gleason skrev:
    >> Anyone here ever use RSX-11S? How was it generated/built?

    >
    > I have the distribution tape.
    >
    > It's built under RSX or VMS. Basically a normal SYSGEN, which results in
    > a .TSK file, just like a normal RSX SYSGEN.
    >
    > But I haven't actually done it, so it's just what I've gathered from
    > reading manuals and such...


    And to correct myself. VMR is also run on the .TSK file, creating a bootable
    image, which normally is named .SYS

    All applications and tasks used in RSX-11S are just installed and fixed in
    memory. Really nothing different from other RSX variants. The things that differ
    are basically that you don't have F11ACP, and you also have some special tasks
    in the system to manage some things like upload of crash dumps over the net (if
    you have DECnet) and similar stuff.

    Johnny

    --
    Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
    || on a psychedelic trip
    email: bqt@softjar.se || Reading murder books
    pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

  4. Re: RSX-11S

    > Anyone here ever use RSX-11S? How was it generated/built?
    >--
    >Lee K. Gleason N5ZMR
    >Control-G Consultants
    >lee.gleason@comcast.net
    >
    >

    We used it about 25 years ago for a couple of standalone PDP-11s for a
    number of systems to copy from one magnetic tape format to another.

    The target systems only had a simple teletype for the console and two
    tape units. The system comprised a number of tasks that allowed double
    buffering of input and output with a control task. I remember that we
    modified the RSX tape driver so that we could run the tape decks at full
    speed. i.e. no start/stops.

    The tasks were all written in Macro and a TKB was used to build a number
    of task images on a normal RSX-11M system with cartridge discs (RK05s)

    A system generation was used to build an RSX11 task file that was then
    VMRed to load the various partitions and drivers; then our tasks were
    loaded and fixed in memory.

    The final RSX11.SYS file was then copied to a magnetic tape with a
    bootloader placed just before the image. I cann't remember how this was
    achieved.

    To operate the system the tape was booted, with a toggled in bootstrap,
    and loaded into memory when the main task was started. The operator
    then selected the type of tapes to be copied/converted.
    --
    Tony Yule
    e-mail: apyule@bRITcOMPsOC.org.uk
    (Remove UPPER CASE letters if replying by e-mail)

    God made the integers, man made the rest. (Leopold Kronecker)


  5. Re: RSX-11S

    Tony Yule skrev:
    > The final RSX11.SYS file was then copied to a magnetic tape with a
    > bootloader placed just before the image. I cann't remember how this was
    > achieved.


    I believe VMR can do that.

    Johnny

    --
    Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
    || on a psychedelic trip
    email: bqt@softjar.se || Reading murder books
    pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

  6. Re: RSX-11S

    In article ,
    Tony Yule wrote:
    >> Anyone here ever use RSX-11S? How was it generated/built?
    >>--
    >>Lee K. Gleason N5ZMR
    >>Control-G Consultants
    >>lee.gleason@comcast.net
    >>
    >>

    >We used it about 25 years ago for a couple of standalone PDP-11s for a
    >number of systems to copy from one magnetic tape format to another.
    >
    >The target systems only had a simple teletype for the console and two
    >tape units. The system comprised a number of tasks that allowed double
    >buffering of input and output with a control task. I remember that we
    >modified the RSX tape driver so that we could run the tape decks at full
    >speed. i.e. no start/stops.
    >
    >The tasks were all written in Macro and a TKB was used to build a number
    >of task images on a normal RSX-11M system with cartridge discs (RK05s)
    >
    >A system generation was used to build an RSX11 task file that was then
    >VMRed to load the various partitions and drivers; then our tasks were
    >loaded and fixed in memory.
    >
    >The final RSX11.SYS file was then copied to a magnetic tape with a
    >bootloader placed just before the image. I cann't remember how this was
    >achieved.


    Just a guess. You used PIP. That's how we (PDP-10s) set up
    boot tapes.

    /BAH


  7. Re: RSX-11S

    In article ,
    wrote:

    > In article ,
    > Tony Yule wrote:
    > >> Anyone here ever use RSX-11S? How was it generated/built?
    > >>--
    > >>Lee K. Gleason N5ZMR
    > >>Control-G Consultants
    > >>lee.gleason@comcast.net
    > >>
    > >>

    > >We used it about 25 years ago for a couple of standalone PDP-11s for a
    > >number of systems to copy from one magnetic tape format to another.
    > >
    > >The target systems only had a simple teletype for the console and two
    > >tape units. The system comprised a number of tasks that allowed double
    > >buffering of input and output with a control task. I remember that we
    > >modified the RSX tape driver so that we could run the tape decks at full
    > >speed. i.e. no start/stops.
    > >
    > >The tasks were all written in Macro and a TKB was used to build a number
    > >of task images on a normal RSX-11M system with cartridge discs (RK05s)
    > >
    > >A system generation was used to build an RSX11 task file that was then
    > >VMRed to load the various partitions and drivers; then our tasks were
    > >loaded and fixed in memory.
    > >
    > >The final RSX11.SYS file was then copied to a magnetic tape with a
    > >bootloader placed just before the image. I cann't remember how this was
    > >achieved.

    >
    > Just a guess. You used PIP. That's how we (PDP-10s) set up
    > boot tapes.


    My memory is hazy on this but when starting from RSX11-M I think you
    told VMR some kind of SAVE command:

    SAVE/WB ;write boot

    Why is my memory so hazy? Well I did quite a few RSX11-S systems for
    automating various bits of brewery. The targets ran on skimpy 11/23s
    with TU58 DECTape II as the load device. These things were incredibly
    slow and the brewery let us use the free management bar. By the time it
    was worth going back to see if it had booted properly, I had often
    forgotten why I had put a new sysgen on it, and was past caring. ;-)

    Ah! Those were the days!

    The best fun on that contract, (You will *love* this Barb!) was writing
    a feeble fake graphics language in teco to create the descriptor files
    for mimic panels running on one of the first affordable colour raster
    displays. (AED 512)

    It did things like animating flow in pipes, valves operating, and even
    mixing detergent and beer to warn the operators they were about to make
    an expensive mistake on the matrix valves in the tank farm. It showed
    tank levels and contents temperatures. Best of all I taught one of the
    plant's draughtsmen enough teco in an afternoon to create all the
    mimics. He caught the programming bug and later set up his own very
    successful business. It is great when you can trick someone into being
    a bigger nutcase than yourself! It is a kind of immortality!

    --
    To de-mung my e-mail address:- fsnospam$elliott$$
    PGP Fingerprint: 1A96 3CF7 637F 896B C810 E199 7E5C A9E4 8E59 E248

  8. Re: RSX-11S

    jmfbahciv@aol.com skrev:
    > In article ,
    > Tony Yule wrote:
    >>> Anyone here ever use RSX-11S? How was it generated/built?
    >>> --
    >>> Lee K. Gleason N5ZMR
    >>> Control-G Consultants
    >>> lee.gleason@comcast.net
    >>>
    >>>

    >> We used it about 25 years ago for a couple of standalone PDP-11s for a
    >> number of systems to copy from one magnetic tape format to another.
    >>
    >> The target systems only had a simple teletype for the console and two
    >> tape units. The system comprised a number of tasks that allowed double
    >> buffering of input and output with a control task. I remember that we
    >> modified the RSX tape driver so that we could run the tape decks at full
    >> speed. i.e. no start/stops.
    >>
    >> The tasks were all written in Macro and a TKB was used to build a number
    >> of task images on a normal RSX-11M system with cartridge discs (RK05s)
    >>
    >> A system generation was used to build an RSX11 task file that was then
    >> VMRed to load the various partitions and drivers; then our tasks were
    >> loaded and fixed in memory.
    >>
    >> The final RSX11.SYS file was then copied to a magnetic tape with a
    >> bootloader placed just before the image. I cann't remember how this was
    >> achieved.

    >
    > Just a guess. You used PIP. That's how we (PDP-10s) set up
    > boot tapes.


    Nah. With PIP, you'd just copy the system image to the tape. You need a
    bootstrap as well, which isn't a part of the system image.

    Johnny

    --
    Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
    || on a psychedelic trip
    email: bqt@softjar.se || Reading murder books
    pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

  9. Re: RSX-11S

    In article <170220081726144899%nospam@yrl.co.uk>,
    Elliott Roper wrote:
    >In article ,
    > wrote:
    >
    >> In article ,
    >> Tony Yule wrote:
    >> >> Anyone here ever use RSX-11S? How was it generated/built?
    >> >>--
    >> >>Lee K. Gleason N5ZMR
    >> >>Control-G Consultants
    >> >>lee.gleason@comcast.net
    >> >>
    >> >>
    >> >We used it about 25 years ago for a couple of standalone PDP-11s for a
    >> >number of systems to copy from one magnetic tape format to another.
    >> >
    >> >The target systems only had a simple teletype for the console and two
    >> >tape units. The system comprised a number of tasks that allowed double
    >> >buffering of input and output with a control task. I remember that we
    >> >modified the RSX tape driver so that we could run the tape decks at full
    >> >speed. i.e. no start/stops.
    >> >
    >> >The tasks were all written in Macro and a TKB was used to build a number
    >> >of task images on a normal RSX-11M system with cartridge discs (RK05s)
    >> >
    >> >A system generation was used to build an RSX11 task file that was then
    >> >VMRed to load the various partitions and drivers; then our tasks were
    >> >loaded and fixed in memory.
    >> >
    >> >The final RSX11.SYS file was then copied to a magnetic tape with a
    >> >bootloader placed just before the image. I cann't remember how this was
    >> >achieved.

    >>
    >> Just a guess. You used PIP. That's how we (PDP-10s) set up
    >> boot tapes.

    >
    >My memory is hazy on this but when starting from RSX11-M I think you
    >told VMR some kind of SAVE command:
    >
    >SAVE/WB ;write boot


    Was the default output device the boot device or disk? It
    doesn't make production sense to only allow writes to the boot
    device. The -10 would write the SAV file to disk and then copy
    it to the magtape (our bootstrap device). We did the same thing
    with the DECtapes and floppies which were -11s.
    >
    >Why is my memory so hazy?


    Because our brains are efficient; they know our fingers have the
    knowledge and don't expend their circuits for redundancy. :-)

    >Well I did quite a few RSX11-S systems for
    >automating various bits of brewery. The targets ran on skimpy 11/23s
    >with TU58 DECTape II as the load device. These things were incredibly
    >slow and the brewery let us use the free management bar. By the time it
    >was worth going back to see if it had booted properly, I had often
    >forgotten why I had put a new sysgen on it, and was past caring. ;-)
    >
    >Ah! Those were the days!
    >
    >The best fun on that contract, (You will *love* this Barb!) was writing
    >a feeble fake graphics language in teco to create the descriptor files
    >for mimic panels running on one of the first affordable colour raster
    >displays. (AED 512)
    >
    >It did things like animating flow in pipes, valves operating, and even
    >mixing detergent and beer to warn the operators they were about to make
    >an expensive mistake on the matrix valves in the tank farm. It showed
    >tank levels and contents temperatures.


    You and TW would have had a fine afternoon talking about this
    one.

    > Best of all I taught one of the
    >plant's draughtsmen enough teco in an afternoon to create all the
    >mimics. He caught the programming bug and later set up his own very
    >successful business. It is great when you can trick someone into being
    >a bigger nutcase than yourself! It is a kind of immortality!


    Yep. The highbrow term is mentorship. Do you know if any of those
    macroes are still laying around?

    I'm starting to remember all kinds of people who would have appreciated
    your beer flow macros.

    /BAH



  10. Re: RSX-11S

    In article ,
    Johnny Billquist wrote:
    >jmfbahciv@aol.com skrev:
    >> In article ,
    >> Tony Yule wrote:
    >>>> Anyone here ever use RSX-11S? How was it generated/built?
    >>>> --
    >>>> Lee K. Gleason N5ZMR
    >>>> Control-G Consultants
    >>>> lee.gleason@comcast.net
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>> We used it about 25 years ago for a couple of standalone PDP-11s for a
    >>> number of systems to copy from one magnetic tape format to another.
    >>>
    >>> The target systems only had a simple teletype for the console and two
    >>> tape units. The system comprised a number of tasks that allowed double
    >>> buffering of input and output with a control task. I remember that we
    >>> modified the RSX tape driver so that we could run the tape decks at full
    >>> speed. i.e. no start/stops.
    >>>
    >>> The tasks were all written in Macro and a TKB was used to build a number
    >>> of task images on a normal RSX-11M system with cartridge discs (RK05s)
    >>>
    >>> A system generation was used to build an RSX11 task file that was then
    >>> VMRed to load the various partitions and drivers; then our tasks were
    >>> loaded and fixed in memory.
    >>>
    >>> The final RSX11.SYS file was then copied to a magnetic tape with a
    >>> bootloader placed just before the image. I cann't remember how this was
    >>> achieved.

    >>
    >> Just a guess. You used PIP. That's how we (PDP-10s) set up
    >> boot tapes.

    >
    >Nah. With PIP, you'd just copy the system image to the tape. You need a
    >bootstrap as well, which isn't a part of the system image.


    nonono. You would copy the bootstrap as the first file. The
    second file would the monitor (or system image).

    /BAH

  11. Re: RSX-11S

    jmfbahciv@aol.com skrev:
    > In article ,
    > Johnny Billquist wrote:
    >> jmfbahciv@aol.com skrev:
    >>> In article ,
    >>> Tony Yule wrote:
    >>>>> Anyone here ever use RSX-11S? How was it generated/built?
    >>>>> --
    >>>>> Lee K. Gleason N5ZMR
    >>>>> Control-G Consultants
    >>>>> lee.gleason@comcast.net
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>> We used it about 25 years ago for a couple of standalone PDP-11s for a
    >>>> number of systems to copy from one magnetic tape format to another.
    >>>>
    >>>> The target systems only had a simple teletype for the console and two
    >>>> tape units. The system comprised a number of tasks that allowed double
    >>>> buffering of input and output with a control task. I remember that we
    >>>> modified the RSX tape driver so that we could run the tape decks at full
    >>>> speed. i.e. no start/stops.
    >>>>
    >>>> The tasks were all written in Macro and a TKB was used to build a number
    >>>> of task images on a normal RSX-11M system with cartridge discs (RK05s)
    >>>>
    >>>> A system generation was used to build an RSX11 task file that was then
    >>>> VMRed to load the various partitions and drivers; then our tasks were
    >>>> loaded and fixed in memory.
    >>>>
    >>>> The final RSX11.SYS file was then copied to a magnetic tape with a
    >>>> bootloader placed just before the image. I cann't remember how this was
    >>>> achieved.
    >>> Just a guess. You used PIP. That's how we (PDP-10s) set up
    >>> boot tapes.

    >> Nah. With PIP, you'd just copy the system image to the tape. You need a
    >> bootstrap as well, which isn't a part of the system image.

    >
    > nonono. You would copy the bootstrap as the first file. The
    > second file would the monitor (or system image).


    Maybe on a -10.
    On an -11, especially with RSX, the bootstraps don't exist as files.
    Also, the bootstrap on a tape is just the first tape block. Not a file, so it
    don't work at all if you try to deal with it that way.

    My direct experience with -10s only applies to KL machine, on which you have a
    FE which do the booting, so I don't know anything about how -10 bootstraps were
    dealt with.

    On a PDP-11, the first block of a device needs to do the rest of the booting.
    The hardware bootstrap in the machine knows only how to read in the first block
    of the device, and then jumps in there. That code in turn should then read in
    the rest of the system, or whatever else is needed to do.

    In RSX, the first block on a disk is initially created by the INI program, as a
    part of creating the file system on the device.
    This bootstrap block is basically just a short piece of code which writes out
    "THIS VOLUME DOES NOT CONTAIN A BOOTABLE SYSTEM" or something like that.
    And then it halts.

    For disks, this bootblock is then replaced by the SAV program, when you give the
    /WB switch (for Write Bootblock). It then places a bootstrap block which loads
    in the system instead.

    However, this is not possible to use for tapes, for obvious reasons (you don't
    really want to try to update the first block when there is data past it).

    Instead, the VMR program, which creates the initial system image, can write this
    image to tapes as well as updating the disk image it is manipulating.
    That's what the SAV command in VMR do. It can only write to tapes, and it writes
    the boot block (appropriate for a tape, where the image follows in the next
    dozen blocks or whatever), and then continues with the OS image itself.

    VMR otherwise only works on disk files. It's main purpose is to manipulate a
    system OS image. Adding and removing devices, tasks, memory layout, clock queues
    and all kind of stuff. All that manipulation don't affect the running system,
    but will take effect at the next boot.

    Johnny

    --
    Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
    || on a psychedelic trip
    email: bqt@softjar.se || Reading murder books
    pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

  12. Re: RSX-11S

    In article ,
    Johnny Billquist wrote:
    >jmfbahciv@aol.com skrev:
    >> In article ,
    >> Johnny Billquist wrote:
    >>> jmfbahciv@aol.com skrev:
    >>>> In article ,
    >>>> Tony Yule wrote:
    >>>>>> Anyone here ever use RSX-11S? How was it generated/built?
    >>>>>> --
    >>>>>> Lee K. Gleason N5ZMR
    >>>>>> Control-G Consultants
    >>>>>> lee.gleason@comcast.net
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>
    >>>>> We used it about 25 years ago for a couple of standalone PDP-11s for a
    >>>>> number of systems to copy from one magnetic tape format to another.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> The target systems only had a simple teletype for the console and two
    >>>>> tape units. The system comprised a number of tasks that allowed double
    >>>>> buffering of input and output with a control task. I remember that we
    >>>>> modified the RSX tape driver so that we could run the tape decks at full
    >>>>> speed. i.e. no start/stops.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> The tasks were all written in Macro and a TKB was used to build a number
    >>>>> of task images on a normal RSX-11M system with cartridge discs (RK05s)
    >>>>>
    >>>>> A system generation was used to build an RSX11 task file that was then
    >>>>> VMRed to load the various partitions and drivers; then our tasks were
    >>>>> loaded and fixed in memory.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> The final RSX11.SYS file was then copied to a magnetic tape with a
    >>>>> bootloader placed just before the image. I cann't remember how this was
    >>>>> achieved.
    >>>> Just a guess. You used PIP. That's how we (PDP-10s) set up
    >>>> boot tapes.
    >>> Nah. With PIP, you'd just copy the system image to the tape. You need a
    >>> bootstrap as well, which isn't a part of the system image.

    >>
    >> nonono. You would copy the bootstrap as the first file. The
    >> second file would the monitor (or system image).

    >
    >Maybe on a -10.
    >On an -11, especially with RSX, the bootstraps don't exist as files.
    >Also, the bootstrap on a tape is just the first tape block. Not a file, so it
    >don't work at all if you try to deal with it that way.


    Right. That's why you use PIP to do the copy. PIP wasn't a program
    that was directory-structured.


    >
    >My direct experience with -10s only applies to KL machine,
    >on which you have a
    >FE which do the booting, so I don't know anything about
    >how -10 bootstraps were
    >dealt with.


    Do you remember the file BOOTM.[mutter] on the front end
    floppies or DECtapes? That was the code that would start
    setting up the -10 side for booting the monitor off the
    magtape. That code replaced the toggling that people
    had to do on real PDP-10s' panels.

    IIRC, the [mutter] was .EXB but I'm not sure any more.

    /BAH

    >
    >On a PDP-11, the first block of a device needs to do the rest of the booting.
    >The hardware bootstrap in the machine knows only how to read in the first

    block
    >of the device, and then jumps in there. That code in turn should then read in
    >the rest of the system, or whatever else is needed to do.
    >
    >In RSX, the first block on a disk is initially created by the INI program, as

    a
    >part of creating the file system on the device.
    >This bootstrap block is basically just a short piece of code which writes out
    >"THIS VOLUME DOES NOT CONTAIN A BOOTABLE SYSTEM" or something like that.
    >And then it halts.
    >
    >For disks, this bootblock is then replaced by the SAV program, when you give

    the
    >/WB switch (for Write Bootblock). It then places a bootstrap block which

    loads
    >in the system instead.
    >
    >However, this is not possible to use for tapes, for obvious reasons (you

    don't
    >really want to try to update the first block when there is data past it).
    >
    >Instead, the VMR program, which creates the initial system image, can write

    this
    >image to tapes as well as updating the disk image it is manipulating.
    >That's what the SAV command in VMR do. It can only write to tapes, and it

    writes
    >the boot block (appropriate for a tape, where the image follows in the next
    >dozen blocks or whatever), and then continues with the OS image itself.
    >
    >VMR otherwise only works on disk files. It's main purpose is to manipulate a
    >system OS image. Adding and removing devices, tasks, memory layout, clock

    queues
    >and all kind of stuff. All that manipulation don't affect the running system,
    >but will take effect at the next boot.
    >
    > Johnny
    >


  13. Re: RSX-11S

    jmfbahciv@aol.com skrev:
    > In article ,
    > Johnny Billquist wrote:
    >> jmfbahciv@aol.com skrev:
    >>> In article ,
    >>> Johnny Billquist wrote:
    >>>> jmfbahciv@aol.com skrev:
    >>>>> In article ,
    >>>>> Tony Yule wrote:
    >>>>>>> Anyone here ever use RSX-11S? How was it generated/built?
    >>>>>>> --
    >>>>>>> Lee K. Gleason N5ZMR
    >>>>>>> Control-G Consultants
    >>>>>>> lee.gleason@comcast.net
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>> We used it about 25 years ago for a couple of standalone PDP-11s for a
    >>>>>> number of systems to copy from one magnetic tape format to another.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> The target systems only had a simple teletype for the console and two
    >>>>>> tape units. The system comprised a number of tasks that allowed double
    >>>>>> buffering of input and output with a control task. I remember that we
    >>>>>> modified the RSX tape driver so that we could run the tape decks at full
    >>>>>> speed. i.e. no start/stops.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> The tasks were all written in Macro and a TKB was used to build a number
    >>>>>> of task images on a normal RSX-11M system with cartridge discs (RK05s)
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> A system generation was used to build an RSX11 task file that was then
    >>>>>> VMRed to load the various partitions and drivers; then our tasks were
    >>>>>> loaded and fixed in memory.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> The final RSX11.SYS file was then copied to a magnetic tape with a
    >>>>>> bootloader placed just before the image. I cann't remember how this was
    >>>>>> achieved.
    >>>>> Just a guess. You used PIP. That's how we (PDP-10s) set up
    >>>>> boot tapes.
    >>>> Nah. With PIP, you'd just copy the system image to the tape. You need a
    >>>> bootstrap as well, which isn't a part of the system image.
    >>> nonono. You would copy the bootstrap as the first file. The
    >>> second file would the monitor (or system image).

    >> Maybe on a -10.
    >> On an -11, especially with RSX, the bootstraps don't exist as files.
    >> Also, the bootstrap on a tape is just the first tape block. Not a file, so it
    >> don't work at all if you try to deal with it that way.

    >
    > Right. That's why you use PIP to do the copy. PIP wasn't a program
    > that was directory-structured.


    PIP on PDP-11s certainly are. Well, sortof... PIP deals with whatever device the
    way the OS gives it to them.
    In RSX, before you can do I/O to a disk or a tape, it has to be mounted. That
    normally implies a file system on it as well. And all PIP operations will pass
    through that file system layer as well.
    You can also mount a device "foreign", which means that it has a format that the
    OS don't know about, and shouldn't care. Basically that means you'll have to do
    all the (possible) file system bits yourself. That's how you need to mount
    DOS-11 and RT-11 volumes in RSX.
    However, I think that PIP itself don't really like foreign volumes, so it's not
    usable in that case, and you'd have to write your own program to do the nasty
    stuff in that case.

    Are you saying that PIP on T10 could be directed to write just one block to a
    tape, without any tape marks, or any other funny stuff? And also position the
    tape before writing (or atleast avoid getting the tape positioned).

    >> My direct experience with -10s only applies to KL machine,
    >> on which you have a
    >> FE which do the booting, so I don't know anything about
    >> how -10 bootstraps were
    >> dealt with.

    >
    > Do you remember the file BOOTM.[mutter] on the front end
    > floppies or DECtapes? That was the code that would start
    > setting up the -10 side for booting the monitor off the
    > magtape. That code replaced the toggling that people
    > had to do on real PDP-10s' panels.


    Yeah. And that can be a whole lot more than the boot straps for the PDP-11,
    which needs to fit into 64 octets or less. Not possible to do much fun in only
    32 words ... :-)
    So basic reading in of block 0 on a selectable unit # (given by the switch
    register) is about all the PDP-11 bootstraps can do.
    Oh, and some primitive error handling.

    > IIRC, the [mutter] was .EXB but I'm not sure any more.


    Me neither, but it sounds somewhat familiar. Maybe I should dump out our RX02
    floppies while I still can...

    Johnny

    --
    Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
    || on a psychedelic trip
    email: bqt@softjar.se || Reading murder books
    pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

  14. Re: RSX-11S

    jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:

    > In article ,
    > Johnny Billquist wrote:


    >> jmfbahciv@aol.com skrev:


    >>> nonono. You would copy the bootstrap as the first file. The
    >>> second file would the monitor (or system image).


    >> Maybe on a -10.


    >> On an -11, especially with RSX, the bootstraps don't exist as files. Also,
    >> the bootstrap on a tape is just the first tape block. Not a file, so it
    >> don't work at all if you try to deal with it that way.


    > Right. That's why you use PIP to do the copy. PIP wasn't a program
    > that was directory-structured.


    ??? PIP on RSX-11* (and RSX-20F) is very much directory-oriented.

    >> My direct experience with -10s only applies to KL machine, on which you have
    >> a FE which do the booting, so I don't know anything about how -10 bootstraps
    >> were dealt with.


    > Do you remember the file BOOTM.[mutter] on the front end
    > floppies or DECtapes? That was the code that would start
    > setting up the -10 side for booting the monitor off the
    > magtape. That code replaced the toggling that people
    > had to do on real PDP-10s' panels.


    > IIRC, the [mutter] was .EXB but I'm not sure any more.


    Yes, BOOT.EXB (on later -10s and always on -20s) is the name of the PDP-10 boot
    program that gets loaded.

    Booting a KL-10 works like this:

    1. The KL front panel has 6 switches (power, emergency off, and the boot set).
    The boot set consists of (left to right) SWITCH REG, FLOPPY (or DECTAPE),
    DISK, and ENABLE. On the 2065 (for example), ENABLE is a momentary contact
    rocker; on the 1090 it's an on-off rocker. The others are all momentary.
    When the system is powered on, you hold down one of the three selectors and
    press ENABLE (or leave ENABLE permamently ON and press the selector you
    choose).

    2. The ENABLE switch causes the 11/40 to load and execute the code from a boot
    ROM. This has entry points for reading a boot block from a Massbus disk, a
    Unibus floppy, or examining the switches on the 11/40 front panel (which is
    *not* the same as the KL-10 panel) to determine whether a disk other than
    unit 0 or a terminal line other than the console is to be used for control,
    and whether RSX-20F should start the KLINIT task with operator intervention
    enabled or not, and then proceed as if the DISK selector had been depressed.

    3. From the disk, cylinder 0 head 0 sector 0 is read into location 0 in the 11
    and a branch is taken to the start of executable code. This reads the
    location of the FILES-11 filesystem on disk from the home block on the disk
    (cyl 0 hd 0 sec 1 on RP04/RP06 disks), and reads the location of RSX20F.SYS
    from the index block of the FILES-11 system.

    4. RSX-20F starts KLINIT.TSK, which checks the status of the PDP-10 back end,
    initializes some state, and loads the back end's microcode from a file on
    the FILES-11 portion of the disk. It then configures cache and memory for
    the back end, loads the boot program into main memory from BOOT.EXB, and
    starts it with or without operator intervention as requested.

    5. The BOOT program reads the home block to find the root of the Tops-10 or
    TOPS-20 file system (as appropriate), and from there locates the monitor,
    loads it into memory, and starts it. The monitor takes over the back end,
    and away we go.

    I know for a fact that this is how it works, because within the last 6 months
    I have traced every instruction of the boot programs on the front end and back
    end of a 1090 while debugging a disk emulator. So don't argue with me. :-)

    --
    Rich Alderson "You get what anybody gets. You get a lifetime."
    news@alderson.users.panix.com --Death, of the Endless

  15. Re: RSX-11S

    In article ,
    wrote:

    > >Heh! we are starting to sound like a pair of a.f.c fogeys.
    > >Oh wait!
    > >;-)

    >
    > It's too bad people don't like to learn from fogeys. If you had
    > added a tapdancer your stuff would have looked like today's
    > webbies.


    Oh but they do. You just gotta tapdance.

    How much good teaching is showmanship?
    PS On the subject of good teaching and VMR and RSX booting. Johnny
    Billquist told it better than I did.

    --
    To de-mung my e-mail address:- fsnospam$elliott$$
    PGP Fingerprint: 1A96 3CF7 637F 896B C810 E199 7E5C A9E4 8E59 E248

  16. Re: RSX-11S

    RSX11S is a diskless system that is built on either 11M,11m+ or on VMS using
    the rsx11 commands that were available for doing a sysgen of 11S systems.
    Once the sysgen was complete it was VMR'd into a loadable .SYS image. When
    I worked in the pdp11 decnet maintenance group the loading of the 11s
    systems was accomplished using the download capabilities of decnet either
    on 11M+ or VMS.

    -Jim-

    "Rich Alderson" wrote in message
    news:mdd7igwpxrk.fsf@panix5.panix.com...
    > jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:
    >
    >> In article ,
    >> Johnny Billquist wrote:

    >
    >>> jmfbahciv@aol.com skrev:

    >
    >>>> nonono. You would copy the bootstrap as the first file. The
    >>>> second file would the monitor (or system image).

    >
    >>> Maybe on a -10.

    >
    >>> On an -11, especially with RSX, the bootstraps don't exist as files.
    >>> Also,
    >>> the bootstrap on a tape is just the first tape block. Not a file, so it
    >>> don't work at all if you try to deal with it that way.

    >
    >> Right. That's why you use PIP to do the copy. PIP wasn't a program
    >> that was directory-structured.

    >
    > ??? PIP on RSX-11* (and RSX-20F) is very much directory-oriented.
    >
    >>> My direct experience with -10s only applies to KL machine, on which you
    >>> have
    >>> a FE which do the booting, so I don't know anything about how -10
    >>> bootstraps
    >>> were dealt with.

    >
    >> Do you remember the file BOOTM.[mutter] on the front end
    >> floppies or DECtapes? That was the code that would start
    >> setting up the -10 side for booting the monitor off the
    >> magtape. That code replaced the toggling that people
    >> had to do on real PDP-10s' panels.

    >
    >> IIRC, the [mutter] was .EXB but I'm not sure any more.

    >
    > Yes, BOOT.EXB (on later -10s and always on -20s) is the name of the PDP-10
    > boot
    > program that gets loaded.
    >
    > Booting a KL-10 works like this:
    >
    > 1. The KL front panel has 6 switches (power, emergency off, and the boot
    > set).
    > The boot set consists of (left to right) SWITCH REG, FLOPPY (or
    > DECTAPE),
    > DISK, and ENABLE. On the 2065 (for example), ENABLE is a momentary
    > contact
    > rocker; on the 1090 it's an on-off rocker. The others are all
    > momentary.
    > When the system is powered on, you hold down one of the three selectors
    > and
    > press ENABLE (or leave ENABLE permamently ON and press the selector you
    > choose).
    >
    > 2. The ENABLE switch causes the 11/40 to load and execute the code from a
    > boot
    > ROM. This has entry points for reading a boot block from a Massbus
    > disk, a
    > Unibus floppy, or examining the switches on the 11/40 front panel (which
    > is
    > *not* the same as the KL-10 panel) to determine whether a disk other
    > than
    > unit 0 or a terminal line other than the console is to be used for
    > control,
    > and whether RSX-20F should start the KLINIT task with operator
    > intervention
    > enabled or not, and then proceed as if the DISK selector had been
    > depressed.
    >
    > 3. From the disk, cylinder 0 head 0 sector 0 is read into location 0 in
    > the 11
    > and a branch is taken to the start of executable code. This reads the
    > location of the FILES-11 filesystem on disk from the home block on the
    > disk
    > (cyl 0 hd 0 sec 1 on RP04/RP06 disks), and reads the location of
    > RSX20F.SYS
    > from the index block of the FILES-11 system.
    >
    > 4. RSX-20F starts KLINIT.TSK, which checks the status of the PDP-10 back
    > end,
    > initializes some state, and loads the back end's microcode from a file
    > on
    > the FILES-11 portion of the disk. It then configures cache and memory
    > for
    > the back end, loads the boot program into main memory from BOOT.EXB, and
    > starts it with or without operator intervention as requested.
    >
    > 5. The BOOT program reads the home block to find the root of the Tops-10
    > or
    > TOPS-20 file system (as appropriate), and from there locates the
    > monitor,
    > loads it into memory, and starts it. The monitor takes over the back
    > end,
    > and away we go.
    >
    > I know for a fact that this is how it works, because within the last 6
    > months
    > I have traced every instruction of the boot programs on the front end and
    > back
    > end of a 1090 while debugging a disk emulator. So don't argue with me.
    > :-)
    >
    > --
    > Rich Alderson "You get what anybody gets. You get a
    > lifetime."
    > news@alderson.users.panix.com --Death, of the
    > Endless




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