WTB P/OS or RT-11 System Disks - DEC

This is a discussion on WTB P/OS or RT-11 System Disks - DEC ; I'm looking for a complete set of P/OS or RT-11 System disks (5.25" floppies that can be used on PRO 350) I will pay for either originals or a complete set of copies. Thanks for any help you may be ...

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Thread: WTB P/OS or RT-11 System Disks

  1. WTB P/OS or RT-11 System Disks

    I'm looking for a complete set of P/OS or RT-11 System disks (5.25" floppies
    that can be used on PRO 350)

    I will pay for either originals or a complete set of copies.

    Thanks for any help you may be able to give!

    Tom Lake


  2. Re: WTB P/OS or RT-11 System Disks

    In article <4726c250$0$32516$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>,
    "Tom Lake" writes:
    > I'm looking for a complete set of P/OS or RT-11 System disks (5.25" floppies
    > that can be used on PRO 350)



    RT-11 is sold by Mentec. P/OS, I believe, is available on the net. I
    think I have a set of images but have never had the chance to actually
    put them on real disks yet. (I have a PRO as well and am still looking
    for an Ethernet card if anyone has one they are willing to let go of.)

    bill

    --
    Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
    bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
    University of Scranton |
    Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include

  3. Re: WTB P/OS or RT-11 System Disks


    "Bill Gunshannon" wrote in message
    news:5oon8bFnrgkeU1@mid.individual.net...
    > In article <4726c250$0$32516$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>,
    > "Tom Lake" writes:
    >> I'm looking for a complete set of P/OS or RT-11 System disks (5.25"
    >> floppies
    >> that can be used on PRO 350)

    >
    >
    > RT-11 is sold by Mentec. P/OS, I believe, is available on the net. I
    > think I have a set of images but have never had the chance to actually
    > put them on real disks yet. (I have a PRO as well and am still looking
    > for an Ethernet card if anyone has one they are willing to let go of.)


    Thanks but I just contacted Mentec (Ireland) and they said they no longer
    handle DEC software.

    Bummer!

    Tom Lake


  4. Re: WTB P/OS or RT-11 System Disks

    In article ,
    "Tom Lake" writes:
    >
    > "Bill Gunshannon" wrote in message
    > news:5oon8bFnrgkeU1@mid.individual.net...
    >> In article <4726c250$0$32516$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>,
    >> "Tom Lake" writes:
    >>> I'm looking for a complete set of P/OS or RT-11 System disks (5.25"
    >>> floppies
    >>> that can be used on PRO 350)

    >>
    >>
    >> RT-11 is sold by Mentec. P/OS, I believe, is available on the net. I
    >> think I have a set of images but have never had the chance to actually
    >> put them on real disks yet. (I have a PRO as well and am still looking
    >> for an Ethernet card if anyone has one they are willing to let go of.)

    >
    > Thanks but I just contacted Mentec (Ireland) and they said they no longer
    > handle DEC software.
    >
    > Bummer!


    Whoa!!! I just tried to visit their US web page and it appears to
    be gone as well. An interesting development considering I had
    contact with them not too awfully long ago and it was business as
    usual.

    This brings up the next big question (which is why I am detouring
    this to the PDP-11 groups). I wonder if there is any chance in
    the world that they would be willing to release it all (especially
    source code) to either the public doamain or perhaps just as Open
    Source under a BSD style or even (gaack) some form of the GPL?

    bill

    --
    Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
    bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
    University of Scranton |
    Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include

  5. Re: WTB P/OS or RT-11 System Disks

    On Oct 30, 11:04 am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
    > In article ,
    > "Tom Lake" writes:
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > > "Bill Gunshannon" wrote in message
    > >news:5oon8bFnrgkeU1@mid.individual.net...
    > >> In article <4726c250$0$32516$4c368...@roadrunner.com>,
    > >> "Tom Lake" writes:
    > >>> I'm looking for a complete set of P/OS or RT-11 System disks (5.25"
    > >>> floppies
    > >>> that can be used on PRO 350)

    >
    > >> RT-11 is sold by Mentec. P/OS, I believe, is available on the net. I
    > >> think I have a set of images but have never had the chance to actually
    > >> put them on real disks yet. (I have a PRO as well and am still looking
    > >> for an Ethernet card if anyone has one they are willing to let go of.)

    >
    > > Thanks but I just contacted Mentec (Ireland) and they said they no longer
    > > handle DEC software.

    >
    > > Bummer!

    >
    > Whoa!!! I just tried to visit their US web page and it appears to
    > be gone as well. An interesting development considering I had
    > contact with them not too awfully long ago and it was business as
    > usual.
    >
    > This brings up the next big question (which is why I am detouring
    > this to the PDP-11 groups). I wonder if there is any chance in
    > the world that they would be willing to release it all (especially
    > source code) to either the public doamain or perhaps just as Open
    > Source under a BSD style or even (gaack) some form of the GPL?
    >
    > bill
    >
    > --
    > Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
    > b...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
    > University of Scranton |
    > Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include - Hide quoted text -
    >
    > - Show quoted text -


    I found the disk for the Toolkit V2.0, Cobol, Basic and Pascal, but
    not the V2.0/V3.2 os disk. I would love to have
    the TMS option and a ethernet controller too. Which also brings up a
    question;
    Was there every a way to bypass the password on P/OS. I have 2 380s
    and cannot remember the password/username for
    either.
    tks
    phillip


  6. Re: WTB P/OS or RT-11 System Disks

    >> Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three
    >> wolves
    >> b...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
    >> University of Scranton |
    >> Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include - Hide
    >> quoted text -
    >>
    >> - Show quoted text -

    >
    > I found the disk for the Toolkit V2.0, Cobol, Basic and Pascal, but
    > not the V2.0/V3.2 os disk. I would love to have


    The 21 OS V3.2 disk images can be found at

    http://mvb.saic.com/freeware/vmslt06a/vu/

    Filename: pos32_install_floppies.tgz

    I still can't find a way to make the .dsk images into real disks, though.

    Where did you find the language disk images? Are there any docs
    to go with them?

    > Was there every a way to bypass the password on P/OS. I have 2 380s
    > and cannot remember the password/username for
    > either.


    Unless you changed it the password is SYSTEM
    (all uppercase).

    Tom Lake


  7. Re: WTB P/OS or RT-11 System Disks

    Tom
    The ToolKit and the compilers plus the docs are all original. I even
    have Syngery, Sight, IVIS software and controller,
    Pro Basic, TMS software, plus NPL.
    phil


  8. Re: WTB P/OS or RT-11 System Disks

    Tom Lake wrote:

    (snip)

    > The 21 OS V3.2 disk images can be found at


    > http://mvb.saic.com/freeware/vmslt06a/vu/


    > Filename: pos32_install_floppies.tgz


    > I still can't find a way to make the .dsk images into real disks, though.


    They seem to be 409600 bytes long. For 512 bytes sectors, that would
    seem to be 10 per track, 80 tracks (either 80 on one size, or 40 on
    two sides). Some unix systems should be able to write those,
    but probably not all. I did a little with P/OS, some time ago,
    but not enough to remember the floppy format.

    -- glen


  9. Re: WTB P/OS or RT-11 System Disks

    In article <1193820453.231350.113020@k35g2000prh.googlegroups. com>,
    "tomarsin2015@comcast.net" writes:
    > Tom
    > The ToolKit and the compilers plus the docs are all original. I even
    > have Syngery, Sight, IVIS software and controller,
    > Pro Basic, TMS software, plus NPL.


    Any chance of converting them to disk images that are usable (as opposed
    to the current disksets that require Teledisk to put them back on media)?
    Maybe SIMH or E11 format?

    Speaking of which.... Is there anyone who has the OS opn real disks
    who might be able to do the same to replace the Teledisk images that are
    on the net? Even if you found a copy of Teledisk (I did, at one point)
    it is unlikely that you wil find hardware that Teledisk can talk to.
    Even with my collection of old computers which includes a number of old
    WD floppy controllers I was never able to write the disk images back to
    real disks. It is nice to see all this stuff archived, but it will be
    of little value if it remains in a format that no one can use.

    bill

    --
    Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
    bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
    University of Scranton |
    Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include

  10. Re: WTB P/OS or RT-11 System Disks

    Bill Gunshannon wrote:
    > In article <1193820453.231350.113020@k35g2000prh.googlegroups. com>,
    > "tomarsin2015@comcast.net" writes:
    >> Tom
    >> The ToolKit and the compilers plus the docs are all original. I even
    >> have Syngery, Sight, IVIS software and controller,
    >> Pro Basic, TMS software, plus NPL.

    >
    > Any chance of converting them to disk images that are usable (as opposed
    > to the current disksets that require Teledisk to put them back on media)?
    > Maybe SIMH or E11 format?
    >
    > Speaking of which.... Is there anyone who has the OS opn real disks
    > who might be able to do the same to replace the Teledisk images that are
    > on the net? Even if you found a copy of Teledisk (I did, at one point)
    > it is unlikely that you wil find hardware that Teledisk can talk to.


    Dave Dunfield wrote a utility to convert Teledisk files to other formats
    as part of his Imagedisk package

    http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img/

    --
    Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com


  11. Re: WTB P/OS or RT-11 System Disks

    > Any chance of converting them to disk images that are usable (as opposed
    > to the current disksets that require Teledisk to put them back on media)?
    > Maybe SIMH or E11 format?
    >

    I was trying to figure out how to do it, but what about the legal
    issues or are there any to be concern about??
    phillip


  12. Re: WTB P/OS or RT-11 System Disks

    glen herrmannsfeldt skrev:
    > Tom Lake wrote:
    >
    > (snip)
    >
    >> The 21 OS V3.2 disk images can be found at

    >
    >> http://mvb.saic.com/freeware/vmslt06a/vu/

    >
    >> Filename: pos32_install_floppies.tgz

    >
    >> I still can't find a way to make the .dsk images into real disks, though.

    >
    > They seem to be 409600 bytes long. For 512 bytes sectors, that would
    > seem to be 10 per track, 80 tracks (either 80 on one size, or 40 on
    > two sides). Some unix systems should be able to write those,
    > but probably not all. I did a little with P/OS, some time ago,
    > but not enough to remember the floppy format.


    The problem is that Unix can't deal with the fact that an RX50 floppy is in a
    totally different hardware format to normal PC floppy drives.
    What teledisk do is to actually reach down into the hardware and reprogram the
    floppy controller to deal with something akin to RX50 format.

    There are articles on the net about which floppies, drives and controllers
    actually work for teledisk to do this. Not all will do.

    The RX50 have 10 sectors/track. 80 tracks and 96 tpi. Single side. 400K capacity
    per disk.

    A Unix system without a real RX50 drive would probably never be able to read or
    write a RX50 floppy. If you were to hack the floppy controller extensively, you
    maybe could, but that means hacking in the kernel, since doing that from user
    space probably never would be possible to do coherently.

    Johnny

    --
    Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
    || on a psychedelic trip
    email: bqt@softjar.se || Reading murder books
    pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

  13. Re: WTB P/OS or RT-11 System Disks

    Johnny Billquist wrote:
    > The problem is that Unix can't deal with the fact that an RX50 floppy is in a
    > totally different hardware format to normal PC floppy drives.


    Well, there are fdutils and cpmtools, and if needed you may talk to the
    FDC with ioctls (e.g. FDRAWCMD).

    > What teledisk do is to actually reach down into the hardware and reprogram the
    > floppy controller to deal with something akin to RX50 format.


    Yes, but as Al already pointed out, TeleDisk has been outdated by Dave's
    ImageDisk utility which is the preferred tool to image disks.

    > There are articles on the net about which floppies, drives and controllers
    > actually work for teledisk to do this. Not all will do.


    > The RX50 have 10 sectors/track. 80 tracks and 96 tpi. Single side. 400K capacity
    > per disk.


    > A Unix system without a real RX50 drive would probably never be able to read or
    > write a RX50 floppy. If you were to hack the floppy controller extensively, you
    > maybe could, but that means hacking in the kernel, since doing that from user
    > space probably never would be possible to do coherently.


    It is very well possible from user space (and has been for many many
    years), even in Solaris on a SPARC box (open raw floppy device and do
    some ioctl operations on it; you can even do FM this way as long as
    the FDC supports it!). You don't need a real RX50 either, a bog standard
    5.25" 96tpi drive (HD or not) will be sufficient.

    Christian


  14. Re: WTB P/OS or RT-11 System Disks

    Christian Corti skrev:
    > Johnny Billquist wrote:
    >> The problem is that Unix can't deal with the fact that an RX50 floppy is in a
    >> totally different hardware format to normal PC floppy drives.

    >
    > Well, there are fdutils and cpmtools, and if needed you may talk to the
    > FDC with ioctls (e.g. FDRAWCMD).


    Hmm. Trying to check out fdutils, but can't really say if it will do enough to
    allow you to play with RX50s. Anyone tried?
    As for cpmtools, that's probably not going to help.

    >> What teledisk do is to actually reach down into the hardware and reprogram the
    >> floppy controller to deal with something akin to RX50 format.

    >
    > Yes, but as Al already pointed out, TeleDisk has been outdated by Dave's
    > ImageDisk utility which is the preferred tool to image disks.


    ImageDisk looks like a better options than TeleDisk, yes. However, it has
    basically the same problems. The one thing that is better is that it don't
    appear to limit your choice of CPUs to slow 486s. But you still need to run real
    DOS (no Windows NT here...), and have the right hardware.
    John Wilsons PUTR should also do, but also have the same limitations.

    >> There are articles on the net about which floppies, drives and controllers
    >> actually work for teledisk to do this. Not all will do.

    >
    >> The RX50 have 10 sectors/track. 80 tracks and 96 tpi. Single side. 400K capacity
    >> per disk.

    >
    >> A Unix system without a real RX50 drive would probably never be able to read or
    >> write a RX50 floppy. If you were to hack the floppy controller extensively, you
    >> maybe could, but that means hacking in the kernel, since doing that from user
    >> space probably never would be possible to do coherently.

    >
    > It is very well possible from user space (and has been for many many
    > years), even in Solaris on a SPARC box (open raw floppy device and do
    > some ioctl operations on it; you can even do FM this way as long as
    > the FDC supports it!). You don't need a real RX50 either, a bog standard
    > 5.25" 96tpi drive (HD or not) will be sufficient.


    Not all will do, appearantly. And I'm not sure you have enough control to do
    what is needed, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong. Have you tried?

    Johnny

    --
    Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
    || on a psychedelic trip
    email: bqt@softjar.se || Reading murder books
    pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

  15. Re: WTB P/OS or RT-11 System Disks

    Johnny Billquist wrote:
    > Hmm. Trying to check out fdutils, but can't really say if it will do enough to
    > allow you to play with RX50s. Anyone tried?


    Since RX50s are MFM, 80 tracks, 10 sectors/track, single sided, 250
    kbit/s disks, a correct 'setfdprm' will do the trick.
    Oh, BTW, this is what I've just found (author unknown):

    "Reading and Writing Real RX50 Floppies

    The emulator is not able to read and write real RX50 floppies directly.
    However, on a Linux system, it is possible to convert RX50 floppies to
    disk image files, and vice versa. A 1.2 MB 5.25" floppy drive is needed
    for this. The following entry should be added to the /etc/fdprm file on
    the Linux system that has the floppy drive attached:

    # size sec/t hds trk stre gap rate spec1 fmt_gap
    RX50 800 10 1 80 0 0x14 0x01 0xDF 0x18

    Then, assuming the 5.25" floppy drive is /dev/fd1, the RX50 parameters
    should be set from a shell prompt (as root) with:

    setfdprm /dev/fd1 RX50

    Next, the dd command can be used to read and write RX50 floppies. For
    example, to convert an entire floppy into an image file:

    dd if=/dev/fd1 of=floppy_image

    This should produce a 409,600 byte file. To write an entire floppy from
    such a file:

    dd if=floppy_image of=/dev/fd1

    I have had very good luck reading Pro floppies this way. However, for
    disks that I have written, I've had some problems reading the last couple
    of tracks on a real Pro."


    > As for cpmtools, that's probably not going to help.


    No, not for RX50s, that's right.

    Christian


  16. Re: WTB P/OS or RT-11 System Disks

    On Oct 31, 3:08 pm, "tomarsin2...@comcast.net"
    wrote:
    > > Any chance of converting them to disk images that are usable (as opposed
    > > to the current disksets that require Teledisk to put them back on media)?
    > > Maybe SIMH or E11 format?

    >
    > I was trying to figure out how to do it, but what about the legal
    > issues or are there any to be concern about??


    The POS distribution disks were donated by DEC to DECUS for them to
    distribute; anything that DECUS distributes requires that the author
    sign a form explicitly stating that the material has been released to
    the public domain.

    Just because they signed the distribution disks over to public domain
    doesn't say anything about the sources or related versions, though.
    DECUS's submission form does not go into GPL etc. (by nececessity it
    predates the GPL and many of its concepts by decades, so do not try to
    extrapolate the GPL requirements about source code availability onto
    stuff distributed by DECUS. Lots of DECUS stuff was distributed binary-
    only.).

    Tim.


  17. Re: WTB P/OS or RT-11 System Disks

    On 2007-11-05, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
    >>>> The RX50 uses a format that you *never* find on any other kind of hardware.


    Otrona Attache, but the Attache is double-sided.

    (sorry; I got lost in all the quotes, so I didn't even try to attribute
    to the appropriate person).

    >> You're right. The RX33 can deal with RX50 floppies. But if I understand
    >> correctly, only if they already are in RX50 format. It can't reformat
    >> disks into RX50 format.


    I'm pretty certain I've formatted RX50s in an RX33, but it's been many
    years. Formatting them in an RX50 is problematic because the format
    requires a tighter speed tolerance than RX50 drive supplies, but the
    TEAC has better speed control.

    >>> Actually, I am thinking of replacing my RX50 in the Pro with an RX33.
    >>> I see no reason why it won't work, and it can read the RX50's (or so I
    >>> have been told!)


    I've often thought this could be done by fiddling with jumpers and
    applying a diode between DS1 and head select. The idea is:

    - Jumper the drive to always run at 300 RPM.
    - Jumper the drive to supply drive ready instead of diskette changed.
    - If you can't jumper the drive to always be low-density, it should be
    possible to force pin 2 by either jumpering it to ground or putting a
    small piece of tape over that pin of the drive's edge connector.
    - Jumper the drive to respond to both DS0 and DS1. You'll probably need
    to use a diode because:
    - Add a diode between DS1 and Head Select such that when DS1 is
    asserted, head select is also asserted.

    That should make the RX33 appear as an RX50 *pair*. It might be really
    hard to format a diskette to work that way, though, since both sides
    would have to be formatted to claim to be head 0.

    > Yes, but insn't P/OS just a stripped down version of RSX? Surely RSX can
    > understand other formats and especially RX33?


    Yeah, but the device driver for the RX50 controller wouldn't know about
    the RX33 format.

    > That's interesting. I was under the impression that the PRO could run
    > normal PDP-11 software (mine is running RT-11 and I assumed it was not
    > a custom version but just plain old RT-11. It was on it when I got it!)


    Well, it does have a pile of device drivers to manage the Pro hardware;
    sure, the OS itself is the same, but without the drivers it ain't going
    to know what to do with a Pro.

    > As for the built in Keyboard/display, My Terak's all do that too. But it
    > is mapped to the address of a normal PDP-11 console so real PDP software
    > runs just fine.


    The Pro console is *not* at the normal PDP-11 address; it's strictly
    bit-mapped. There's a very large device driver that provides the VT
    emulation.

    It's possible to get the PDP-11 console to show up on the printer (IIRC)
    port with a special cable, but the normal console hardware is otherwise
    inaccessible.

    > Plus, you can turn it off and set the serial port to
    > the Console SLU address and run a terminal on it instead.


    Can't do that with the Pro. Although enough console is available with
    the special cable to keep MicroODT happy, there are no console
    interrupts, so an OS won't be happy with it.

    > The only non-
    > compatable PDP-11 device is the floppy, which is not the same in hardware
    > as an RX01/RX02. But an RT-11 driver was provided and enough info to
    > write a driver for other OSes (which I plan to do at some point, just so
    > I can put 8" disks on some of my other systems.)


    There's also a bit of magic going on to handle the motherboard interrupt
    controller, IIRC.
    --
    roger ivie
    rivie@ridgenet.net

  18. Re: WTB P/OS or RT-11 System Disks

    On 2007-11-06, glen herrmannsfeldt wrote:
    > Does the RX-50 have only one head moving motor?


    Yes.
    --
    roger ivie
    rivie@ridgenet.net

  19. Re: WTB P/OS or RT-11 System Disks

    Roger Ivie wrote:

    (snip)

    > I'm pretty certain I've formatted RX50s in an RX33, but it's been many
    > years. Formatting them in an RX50 is problematic because the format
    > requires a tighter speed tolerance than RX50 drive supplies, but the
    > TEAC has better speed control.


    When I first started using floppy drives I would adjust the speed
    once in a while with the strobe pattern that they would put on
    the flywheel. The IBM standard gaps are long enough for a fairly
    loose speed tolerance. To get 10 sectors you have to shrink the
    gaps. I believe, though, that newer (than the first ones I used)
    drives have pretty tight tolerances.

    >>>>Actually, I am thinking of replacing my RX50 in the Pro with an RX33.
    >>>>I see no reason why it won't work, and it can read the RX50's (or so I
    >>>>have been told!)


    > I've often thought this could be done by fiddling with jumpers and
    > applying a diode between DS1 and head select. The idea is:


    > - Jumper the drive to always run at 300 RPM.
    > - Jumper the drive to supply drive ready instead of diskette changed.
    > - If you can't jumper the drive to always be low-density, it should be
    > possible to force pin 2 by either jumpering it to ground or putting a
    > small piece of tape over that pin of the drive's edge connector.
    > - Jumper the drive to respond to both DS0 and DS1. You'll probably need
    > to use a diode because:
    > - Add a diode between DS1 and Head Select such that when DS1 is
    > asserted, head select is also asserted.


    TTL inputs are supposed to be below 0.8V which will be hard with
    an 0.7V diode drop. Using an open collector buffer would be more
    reliable, though a Schottky diode might also work.

    Does the RX-50 have only one head moving motor?

    (snip)

    -- glen


  20. Re: WTB P/OS or RT-11 System Disks

    Johnny Billquist wrote:
    > Actually, I suspect eventually DOS might be a problem as well, since I wonder
    > how much of DOS will work on new fancy hardware. Will DOS even boot on new
    > PCs?


    Although this is a bit off-topic, yes, DOS will run perfectly on the
    most modern e.g. AMD Athlon 64 X2 systems with SATA drives. And my
    ASrock mainboard does support two disk drives *and FM* encoding.
    Even the Asus P4P800 Pentium4 board will support FM.
    (BTW DOS support is required if you use tools like Norton Ghost)

    Christian

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