On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 09:21:44PM +0200, Daniel Baumann wrote:

> just a quick note: after lenny, ncurses will bump soname major from 5 to
> 6 in order to make mouse wheels work. The transition will be big, but
> can be entirely handled with binNMUs only and this is what this mail is
> about:

> There is no hurry, but please start using soname-independent
> build-depends on ncurses as 'libncurses-dev | libncurses5-dev' in your
> next uploads.

Does this mean it /can't/ be handled with binNMUs because you're changing
the -dev package name?

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Steve Langasek wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 09:21:44PM +0200, Daniel Baumann wrote:
>
>> There is no hurry, but please start using soname-independent
>> build-depends on ncurses as 'libncurses-dev | libncurses5-dev' in your
>> next uploads.
>
> Does this mean it /can't/ be handled with binNMUs because you're changing
> the -dev package name?

Daniel probably meant "it could be handled by binNMUs" provided people
upload their package(s) with the new build-depends before the transition
starts.

- Adam


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Adam Majer wrote:
> Daniel probably meant "it could be handled by binNMUs" provided people
> upload their package(s) with the new build-depends before the transition
> starts.

yep; sorry for beeing unprecise.

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On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 05:21:10PM -0500, Adam Majer wrote:
> Steve Langasek wrote:
>> On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 09:21:44PM +0200, Daniel Baumann wrote:

>>> There is no hurry, but please start using soname-independent
>>> build-depends on ncurses as 'libncurses-dev | libncurses5-dev' in your
>>> next uploads.

>> Does this mean it /can't/ be handled with binNMUs because you're changing
>> the -dev package name?

> Daniel probably meant "it could be handled by binNMUs" provided people
> upload their package(s) with the new build-depends before the transition
> starts.

In that case: no, please fix your ncurses 6 package to provide a proper
transition path by adding Provides: libncurses5-dev. You shouldn't plan
transitions in a way that requires uploads to over 400 source packages.

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Steve Langasek wrote:
> In that case: no, please fix your ncurses 6 package to provide a proper
> transition path by adding Provides: libncurses5-dev.

that won't work in all cases, the soname major changes for a reason.

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* Daniel Baumann:

> Steve Langasek wrote:
>> In that case: no, please fix your ncurses 6 package to provide a proper
>> transition path by adding Provides: libncurses5-dev.
>
> that won't work in all cases, the soname major changes for a reason.

And which is that? I thought the ncurses ABI was pretty fixed. It's
also part of LSB, isn't it?

(A pointer to the version you want to upload is sufficient.)


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On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 11:13:46AM +0200, Daniel Baumann wrote:
> Steve Langasek wrote:
> > In that case: no, please fix your ncurses 6 package to provide a proper
> > transition path by adding Provides: libncurses5-dev.

> that won't work in all cases, the soname major changes for a reason.

Then why are you asking maintainers to blindly change their build-depends to
point to it?

--
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Debian Developer to set it on, and I can move the world.
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Steve Langasek wrote:
> Then why are you asking maintainers to blindly change their build-depends to
> point to it?

please read.. #230990.

i could have done this by bumping soname minor (from 5.6.0 to 5.7.0),
however, upstream says:

"That _might_ work - though binary-compatible stuff I thought required
it to be a change to the major-version (which is why I've got the
configure script using 6.0 for this and the extended colors feature)."

or in other words: soname 6 in debian will therefore be not compatible,
as it introduces both --enable-ext-mouse and --enable-ext-colors. also,
the wide builds will dissappear.

however.. please just adjust your build-depends and everythings going to
be fine.. and there will a bunch of uploads to experimental first until
everything is settled, please comment further when there are actual
packages available (in exp) to discuss.

Thanks,
Daniel

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On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 01:12:04PM +0200, Daniel Baumann wrote:
> or in other words: soname 6 in debian will therefore be not compatible,
> as it introduces both --enable-ext-mouse and --enable-ext-colors. also,
> the wide builds will dissappear.

What's the transition plan for those of us using wide builds?


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Le mercredi 17 septembre 2008 Ã* 13:12 +0200, Daniel Baumann a écrit :
> however.. please just adjust your build-depends and everythings going to
> be fine..

From all that you’ve explained, I understand that the API has not
changed. Therefore you should not change the development package name,
or at least provide a dummy libncurses5-dev that depends on the new one.

Cheers,
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* Daniel Baumann [Tue, 16 Sep 2008 21:21:44 +0200]:

> Hi,

Daniel,

> just a quick note: after lenny, ncurses will bump soname major from 5 to
> 6 in order to make mouse wheels work. The transition will be big, but
> can be entirely handled with binNMUs only and this is what this mail is
> about:

> There is no hurry, but please start using soname-independent
> build-depends on ncurses as 'libncurses-dev | libncurses5-dev' in your
> next uploads.

By dropping any mention to libncurses5-dev from your new packages, what
your are proposing is:

* a transition where 400 sourceful uploads need to go into testing at
the same time. This is incredibly painful, and there is no way I'm
going to manage that (and good luck finding a release team member
who will).

PLUS

* 400 more insta RC bugs in unstable, 300+ of which would affect
testing. This is also very bad, and unacceptable, for obvious
reasons.

Now, let's try to be constructive. You can:

* make, as Steve suggests, your libncurses-dev package Provide:
libncurses5-dev (and libncursesw5-dev as well if appropriate). With
that, then only 11 packages require an upload (the ones with
versioned Build-Dependencies).

In this case, you are also welcome to file 400 bugs at any non-RC
severity asking for a change in the Build-Depends. They should be
NMUable as well, if you'd like to push for dropping the Provides in
Squeeze+1 (or even in Squeeze if you're fast).

This path still leaves a very painful transition on the shoulders of
the release team, but not as painful.

OR

* introduce a ncurses5 source package. Then not all 400 packages need
to go into testing at the same time, they just can trickle as they
get built. This would be very good, *and* we'd work together with
you to ensure such source package disappears before Squeeze (we'd
w-b massage, you'd file bugs for FTBFS, and NMU as necessary). (¹)

If you insist on your way, please explain it why you insist instead of
accepting either of the proposals above.

(¹) Independently of whether we use this method of not, I think
introducing a ncurses5 source package providing /just the
libraries and not the development packages/ could be a good idea,
in order for people to be able to run binaries obtained
elsewhere...

Cheers,

--
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Debian Developer adeodato at debian.org

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On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 01:37:29PM +0100, Adeodato Simó wrote:
> libncurses5-dev (and libncursesw5-dev as well if appropriate). With

Can't do that because the pathnames are different.


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Le mercredi 17 septembre 2008 Ã* 13:37 +0100, Adeodato Simó a écrit :
> OR
>
> * introduce a ncurses5 source package. Then not all 400 packages need
> to go into testing at the same time, they just can trickle as they
> get built. This would be very good, *and* we'd work together with
> you to ensure such source package disappears before Squeeze (we'd
> w-b massage, you'd file bugs for FTBFS, and NMU as necessary). (¹)

Given that symbols in libncurses are not versioned, this looks like a
very dangerous thing to do. Even in other cases, you’re probably going
to run into crasher bugs in unstable, unless libncurses6 is made to
conflict with all libraries depending on libncurses5.

Cheers,
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Clint Adams wrote:
> What's the transition plan for those of us using wide builds?

there will be libncurses6 only, which is wide.

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Adeodato Simó wrote:
> * introduce a ncurses5 source package.

sounds elegant to me, will do like that. thanks for beeing constructive.

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On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 09:21:44PM +0200, Daniel Baumann was heard to say:
> just a quick note: after lenny, ncurses will bump soname major from 5 to
> 6 in order to make mouse wheels work. The transition will be big, but
> can be entirely handled with binNMUs only and this is what this mail is
> about:
>
> There is no hurry, but please start using soname-independent
> build-depends on ncurses as 'libncurses-dev | libncurses5-dev' in your
> next uploads.

Sadly, this won't work for packages using libncursesw5 -- I got a
rather large number of hits when I grepped for ncursesw in the Sources
file for sid.

Daniel


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On Wed, 17 Sep 2008, Daniel Baumann wrote:
> Adeodato Simó wrote:
> > * introduce a ncurses5 source package.
>
> sounds elegant to me, will do like that. thanks for beeing constructive.

As you have been warned already, do watch out for symbol colisions due to
the lack of symbol versioning in ncurses libs.

It is probably enough to version symbols in the new soname packages, but it
requires some testing with an application that links to a lib linked to old
ncurses (while the app itself or another lib it is linked with uses the new
ncurses).

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where the shadows lie." -- The Silicon Valley Tarot
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Le mercredi 17 septembre 2008 à 11:03 -0300, Henrique de Moraes Holschuh
a écrit :
> It is probably enough to version symbols in the new soname packages

No.

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Le mercredi 17 septembre 2008 à 16:05 +0200, Josselin Mouette a écrit :
> Le mercredi 17 septembre 2008 à 11:03 -0300, Henrique de Moraes Holschuh
> a écrit :
> > It is probably enough to version symbols in the new soname packages
>
> No.

Before anyone asks why: when you require a symbol without a version, the
dynamic linker will pick any of those it finds in the dependent
libraries. Which means it can pick the correct (unversioned) one as well
as the versioned one.

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