Headsup: ncurses soname bump 5 to 6 - Debian

This is a discussion on Headsup: ncurses soname bump 5 to 6 - Debian ; Hi, just a quick note: after lenny, ncurses will bump soname major from 5 to 6 in order to make mouse wheels work. The transition will be big, but can be entirely handled with binNMUs only and this is what ...

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Thread: Headsup: ncurses soname bump 5 to 6

  1. Headsup: ncurses soname bump 5 to 6

    Hi,

    just a quick note: after lenny, ncurses will bump soname major from 5 to
    6 in order to make mouse wheels work. The transition will be big, but
    can be entirely handled with binNMUs only and this is what this mail is
    about:

    There is no hurry, but please start using soname-independent
    build-depends on ncurses as 'libncurses-dev | libncurses5-dev' in your
    next uploads.

    Thanks,
    Daniel

    --
    Address: Daniel Baumann, Burgunderstrasse 3, CH-4562 Biberist
    Email: daniel.baumann@panthera-systems.net
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  2. Re: Headsup: ncurses soname bump 5 to 6

    On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 09:21:44PM +0200, Daniel Baumann wrote:

    > just a quick note: after lenny, ncurses will bump soname major from 5 to
    > 6 in order to make mouse wheels work. The transition will be big, but
    > can be entirely handled with binNMUs only and this is what this mail is
    > about:


    > There is no hurry, but please start using soname-independent
    > build-depends on ncurses as 'libncurses-dev | libncurses5-dev' in your
    > next uploads.


    Does this mean it /can't/ be handled with binNMUs because you're changing
    the -dev package name?

    --
    Steve Langasek Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS
    Debian Developer to set it on, and I can move the world.
    Ubuntu Developer http://www.debian.org/
    slangasek@ubuntu.com vorlon@debian.org


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  3. Re: Headsup: ncurses soname bump 5 to 6

    Steve Langasek wrote:
    > On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 09:21:44PM +0200, Daniel Baumann wrote:
    >
    >> There is no hurry, but please start using soname-independent
    >> build-depends on ncurses as 'libncurses-dev | libncurses5-dev' in your
    >> next uploads.

    >
    > Does this mean it /can't/ be handled with binNMUs because you're changing
    > the -dev package name?


    Daniel probably meant "it could be handled by binNMUs" provided people
    upload their package(s) with the new build-depends before the transition
    starts.

    - Adam


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  4. Re: Headsup: ncurses soname bump 5 to 6

    Adam Majer wrote:
    > Daniel probably meant "it could be handled by binNMUs" provided people
    > upload their package(s) with the new build-depends before the transition
    > starts.


    yep; sorry for beeing unprecise.

    --
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    Email: daniel.baumann@panthera-systems.net
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  5. Re: Headsup: ncurses soname bump 5 to 6

    On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 05:21:10PM -0500, Adam Majer wrote:
    > Steve Langasek wrote:
    >> On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 09:21:44PM +0200, Daniel Baumann wrote:


    >>> There is no hurry, but please start using soname-independent
    >>> build-depends on ncurses as 'libncurses-dev | libncurses5-dev' in your
    >>> next uploads.


    >> Does this mean it /can't/ be handled with binNMUs because you're changing
    >> the -dev package name?


    > Daniel probably meant "it could be handled by binNMUs" provided people
    > upload their package(s) with the new build-depends before the transition
    > starts.


    In that case: no, please fix your ncurses 6 package to provide a proper
    transition path by adding Provides: libncurses5-dev. You shouldn't plan
    transitions in a way that requires uploads to over 400 source packages.

    --
    Steve Langasek Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS
    Debian Developer to set it on, and I can move the world.
    Ubuntu Developer http://www.debian.org/
    slangasek@ubuntu.com vorlon@debian.org


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  6. Re: Headsup: ncurses soname bump 5 to 6

    Steve Langasek wrote:
    > In that case: no, please fix your ncurses 6 package to provide a proper
    > transition path by adding Provides: libncurses5-dev.


    that won't work in all cases, the soname major changes for a reason.

    --
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    Email: daniel.baumann@panthera-systems.net
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  7. Re: Headsup: ncurses soname bump 5 to 6

    * Daniel Baumann:

    > Steve Langasek wrote:
    >> In that case: no, please fix your ncurses 6 package to provide a proper
    >> transition path by adding Provides: libncurses5-dev.

    >
    > that won't work in all cases, the soname major changes for a reason.


    And which is that? I thought the ncurses ABI was pretty fixed. It's
    also part of LSB, isn't it?

    (A pointer to the version you want to upload is sufficient.)


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  8. Re: Headsup: ncurses soname bump 5 to 6

    On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 11:13:46AM +0200, Daniel Baumann wrote:
    > Steve Langasek wrote:
    > > In that case: no, please fix your ncurses 6 package to provide a proper
    > > transition path by adding Provides: libncurses5-dev.


    > that won't work in all cases, the soname major changes for a reason.


    Then why are you asking maintainers to blindly change their build-depends to
    point to it?

    --
    Steve Langasek Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS
    Debian Developer to set it on, and I can move the world.
    Ubuntu Developer http://www.debian.org/
    slangasek@ubuntu.com vorlon@debian.org


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  9. Re: Headsup: ncurses soname bump 5 to 6

    Steve Langasek wrote:
    > Then why are you asking maintainers to blindly change their build-depends to
    > point to it?


    please read.. #230990.

    i could have done this by bumping soname minor (from 5.6.0 to 5.7.0),
    however, upstream says:

    "That _might_ work - though binary-compatible stuff I thought required
    it to be a change to the major-version (which is why I've got the
    configure script using 6.0 for this and the extended colors feature)."

    or in other words: soname 6 in debian will therefore be not compatible,
    as it introduces both --enable-ext-mouse and --enable-ext-colors. also,
    the wide builds will dissappear.

    however.. please just adjust your build-depends and everythings going to
    be fine.. and there will a bunch of uploads to experimental first until
    everything is settled, please comment further when there are actual
    packages available (in exp) to discuss.

    Thanks,
    Daniel

    --
    Address: Daniel Baumann, Burgunderstrasse 3, CH-4562 Biberist
    Email: daniel.baumann@panthera-systems.net
    Internet: http://people.panthera-systems.net/~daniel-baumann/


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  10. Re: Headsup: ncurses soname bump 5 to 6

    On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 01:12:04PM +0200, Daniel Baumann wrote:
    > or in other words: soname 6 in debian will therefore be not compatible,
    > as it introduces both --enable-ext-mouse and --enable-ext-colors. also,
    > the wide builds will dissappear.


    What's the transition plan for those of us using wide builds?


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  11. Re: Headsup: ncurses soname bump 5 to 6

    Le mercredi 17 septembre 2008 Ã* 13:12 +0200, Daniel Baumann a écrit :
    > however.. please just adjust your build-depends and everythings going to
    > be fine..


    From all that you’ve explained, I understand that the API has not
    changed. Therefore you should not change the development package name,
    or at least provide a dummy libncurses5-dev that depends on the new one.

    Cheers,
    --
    .''`.
    : :' : We are debian.org. Lower your prices, surrender your code.
    `. `' We will add your hardware and software distinctiveness to
    `- our own. Resistance is futile.

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  12. Re: Headsup: ncurses soname bump 5 to 6

    * Daniel Baumann [Tue, 16 Sep 2008 21:21:44 +0200]:

    > Hi,


    Daniel,

    > just a quick note: after lenny, ncurses will bump soname major from 5 to
    > 6 in order to make mouse wheels work. The transition will be big, but
    > can be entirely handled with binNMUs only and this is what this mail is
    > about:


    > There is no hurry, but please start using soname-independent
    > build-depends on ncurses as 'libncurses-dev | libncurses5-dev' in your
    > next uploads.


    By dropping any mention to libncurses5-dev from your new packages, what
    your are proposing is:

    * a transition where 400 sourceful uploads need to go into testing at
    the same time. This is incredibly painful, and there is no way I'm
    going to manage that (and good luck finding a release team member
    who will).

    PLUS

    * 400 more insta RC bugs in unstable, 300+ of which would affect
    testing. This is also very bad, and unacceptable, for obvious
    reasons.

    Now, let's try to be constructive. You can:

    * make, as Steve suggests, your libncurses-dev package Provide:
    libncurses5-dev (and libncursesw5-dev as well if appropriate). With
    that, then only 11 packages require an upload (the ones with
    versioned Build-Dependencies).

    In this case, you are also welcome to file 400 bugs at any non-RC
    severity asking for a change in the Build-Depends. They should be
    NMUable as well, if you'd like to push for dropping the Provides in
    Squeeze+1 (or even in Squeeze if you're fast).

    This path still leaves a very painful transition on the shoulders of
    the release team, but not as painful.

    OR

    * introduce a ncurses5 source package. Then not all 400 packages need
    to go into testing at the same time, they just can trickle as they
    get built. This would be very good, *and* we'd work together with
    you to ensure such source package disappears before Squeeze (we'd
    w-b massage, you'd file bugs for FTBFS, and NMU as necessary). (¹)

    If you insist on your way, please explain it why you insist instead of
    accepting either of the proposals above.

    (¹) Independently of whether we use this method of not, I think
    introducing a ncurses5 source package providing /just the
    libraries and not the development packages/ could be a good idea,
    in order for people to be able to run binaries obtained
    elsewhere...

    Cheers,

    --
    Adeodato Simó dato at net.com.org.es
    Debian Developer adeodato at debian.org

    To be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing its best night and
    day to make you like everybody else means to fight the hardest battle
    any human being can fight and never stop fighting.
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  13. Re: Headsup: ncurses soname bump 5 to 6

    On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 01:37:29PM +0100, Adeodato Simó wrote:
    > libncurses5-dev (and libncursesw5-dev as well if appropriate). With


    Can't do that because the pathnames are different.


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  14. Re: Headsup: ncurses soname bump 5 to 6

    Le mercredi 17 septembre 2008 Ã* 13:37 +0100, Adeodato Simó a écrit :
    > OR
    >
    > * introduce a ncurses5 source package. Then not all 400 packages need
    > to go into testing at the same time, they just can trickle as they
    > get built. This would be very good, *and* we'd work together with
    > you to ensure such source package disappears before Squeeze (we'd
    > w-b massage, you'd file bugs for FTBFS, and NMU as necessary). (¹)


    Given that symbols in libncurses are not versioned, this looks like a
    very dangerous thing to do. Even in other cases, you’re probably going
    to run into crasher bugs in unstable, unless libncurses6 is made to
    conflict with all libraries depending on libncurses5.

    Cheers,
    --
    .''`.
    : :' : We are debian.org. Lower your prices, surrender your code.
    `. `' We will add your hardware and software distinctiveness to
    `- our own. Resistance is futile.

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  15. Re: Headsup: ncurses soname bump 5 to 6

    Clint Adams wrote:
    > What's the transition plan for those of us using wide builds?


    there will be libncurses6 only, which is wide.

    --
    Address: Daniel Baumann, Burgunderstrasse 3, CH-4562 Biberist
    Email: daniel.baumann@panthera-systems.net
    Internet: http://people.panthera-systems.net/~daniel-baumann/


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  16. Re: Headsup: ncurses soname bump 5 to 6

    Adeodato Simó wrote:
    > * introduce a ncurses5 source package.


    sounds elegant to me, will do like that. thanks for beeing constructive.

    --
    Address: Daniel Baumann, Burgunderstrasse 3, CH-4562 Biberist
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  17. Re: Headsup: ncurses soname bump 5 to 6

    On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 09:21:44PM +0200, Daniel Baumann was heard to say:
    > just a quick note: after lenny, ncurses will bump soname major from 5 to
    > 6 in order to make mouse wheels work. The transition will be big, but
    > can be entirely handled with binNMUs only and this is what this mail is
    > about:
    >
    > There is no hurry, but please start using soname-independent
    > build-depends on ncurses as 'libncurses-dev | libncurses5-dev' in your
    > next uploads.


    Sadly, this won't work for packages using libncursesw5 -- I got a
    rather large number of hits when I grepped for ncursesw in the Sources
    file for sid.

    Daniel


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  18. Re: Headsup: ncurses soname bump 5 to 6

    On Wed, 17 Sep 2008, Daniel Baumann wrote:
    > Adeodato Simó wrote:
    > > * introduce a ncurses5 source package.

    >
    > sounds elegant to me, will do like that. thanks for beeing constructive.


    As you have been warned already, do watch out for symbol colisions due to
    the lack of symbol versioning in ncurses libs.

    It is probably enough to version symbols in the new soname packages, but it
    requires some testing with an application that links to a lib linked to old
    ncurses (while the app itself or another lib it is linked with uses the new
    ncurses).

    --
    "One disk to rule them all, One disk to find them. One disk to bring
    them all and in the darkness grind them. In the Land of Redmond
    where the shadows lie." -- The Silicon Valley Tarot
    Henrique Holschuh


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  19. Re: Headsup: ncurses soname bump 5 to 6

    Le mercredi 17 septembre 2008 à 11:03 -0300, Henrique de Moraes Holschuh
    a écrit :
    > It is probably enough to version symbols in the new soname packages


    No.

    --
    .''`.
    : :' : We are debian.org. Lower your prices, surrender your code.
    `. `' We will add your hardware and software distinctiveness to
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  20. Re: Headsup: ncurses soname bump 5 to 6

    Le mercredi 17 septembre 2008 à 16:05 +0200, Josselin Mouette a écrit :
    > Le mercredi 17 septembre 2008 à 11:03 -0300, Henrique de Moraes Holschuh
    > a écrit :
    > > It is probably enough to version symbols in the new soname packages

    >
    > No.


    Before anyone asks why: when you require a symbol without a version, the
    dynamic linker will pick any of those it finds in the dependent
    libraries. Which means it can pick the correct (unversioned) one as well
    as the versioned one.

    --
    .''`.
    : :' : We are debian.org. Lower your prices, surrender your code.
    `. `' We will add your hardware and software distinctiveness to
    `- our own. Resistance is futile.

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