Re: gnome, kde, xfce use non-policy main menu - Debian

This is a discussion on Re: gnome, kde, xfce use non-policy main menu - Debian ; On Sat, Jul 5, 2008 at 4:15 PM, William Pit**** wrote: > Honestly, policy really needs to be updated to use the XDG standards > menu spec, and every WM at this point really should be using them for > ...

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Thread: Re: gnome, kde, xfce use non-policy main menu

  1. Re: gnome, kde, xfce use non-policy main menu

    On Sat, Jul 5, 2008 at 4:15 PM, William Pit****
    wrote:

    > Honestly, policy really needs to be updated to use the XDG standards
    > menu spec, and every WM at this point really should be using them for
    > their menus.
    >
    > I think the debian-menu system should be seen as legacy, since it has
    > been replaced with a standard used and supported by many upstreams and
    > many other distros.
    >
    > However, there's a few places where debian-menu is a better solution
    > though. (It can be used to build menus for many WMs which do not support
    > XDG, but honestly, do we need all these WMs?)
    >
    > Another solution would be to make debian-menu build .desktop entries for
    > the menu in the main menu namespace and not the 'Debian' namespace; this
    > seems like the easiest solution.


    +1

    Same for defoma/fontconfig.

    --
    bye,
    pabs

    http://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise


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  2. Re: gnome, kde, xfce use non-policy main menu

    Paul Wise wrote:
    > On Sat, Jul 5, 2008 at 4:15 PM, William Pit****
    > wrote:
    >
    >> Honestly, policy really needs to be updated to use the XDG standards
    >> menu spec, and every WM at this point really should be using them for
    >> their menus.
    >>
    >> I think the debian-menu system should be seen as legacy, since it has
    >> been replaced with a standard used and supported by many upstreams and
    >> many other distros.
    >>
    >> However, there's a few places where debian-menu is a better solution
    >> though. (It can be used to build menus for many WMs which do not support
    >> XDG, but honestly, do we need all these WMs?)
    >>
    >> Another solution would be to make debian-menu build .desktop entries for
    >> the menu in the main menu namespace and not the 'Debian' namespace; this
    >> seems like the easiest solution.


    > +1


    I don't think that the idea of superseding menu lacks support, it lacks
    people doing the work (and the coding part seems small compared to
    creating a mapping the categories, preferably in both directions, and
    come up with a sane policy). Also, this seems to be something to do
    shortly after a release...

    Another issue besides categories preventing the "easiest solution" to be
    a feasible one is what to do with generic names: You would not want to
    have half a dozen "Text editor" entries in a menu but you would not want
    Debian to unnecessarily diverge from generic naming schemes or drop
    generic names that upstreams use, either.

    Suggestions of the "do we need all the WMs" variety may appear to point
    out less work-intensive ways but really just cover up that developing a
    good policy and conversion is the much larger issue than where to put
    files of which format and start a useless side discussion.

    Kind regards

    T.
    --
    Thomas Viehmann, http://thomas.viehmann.net/


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  3. Re: gnome, kde, xfce use non-policy main menu

    On Sat, 05 Jul 2008 10:54:30 +0200
    Thomas Viehmann wrote:

    > Paul Wise wrote:
    > > On Sat, Jul 5, 2008 at 4:15 PM, William Pit****
    > > wrote:
    > >
    > >> Honestly, policy really needs to be updated to use the XDG
    > >> standards menu spec, and every WM at this point really should be
    > >> using them for their menus.
    > >>
    > >> I think the debian-menu system should be seen as legacy, since it
    > >> has been replaced with a standard used and supported by many
    > >> upstreams and many other distros.
    > >>
    > >> However, there's a few places where debian-menu is a better
    > >> solution though. (It can be used to build menus for many WMs which
    > >> do not support XDG, but honestly, do we need all these WMs?)
    > >>
    > >> Another solution would be to make debian-menu build .desktop
    > >> entries for the menu in the main menu namespace and not the
    > >> 'Debian' namespace; this seems like the easiest solution.

    >
    > > +1

    >
    > I don't think that the idea of superseding menu lacks support, it
    > lacks people doing the work (and the coding part seems small compared
    > to creating a mapping the categories, preferably in both directions,
    > and come up with a sane policy). Also, this seems to be something to
    > do shortly after a release...


    Which makes coming up with sane policy around now a good idea,
    methinks. (So development can be underway and implemented by lenny+1).

    Regards,

    Daniel

    --
    And that's my crabbing done for the day. Got it out of the way early,
    now I have the rest of the afternoon to sniff fragrant tea-roses or
    strangle cute bunnies or something. -- Michael Devore
    GnuPG Key Fingerprint 86 F5 81 A5 D4 2E 1F 1C http://gnupg.org
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  4. Re: gnome, kde, xfce use non-policy main menu

    On Sat, 05 Jul 2008 10:54:30 +0200
    Thomas Viehmann wrote:

    > >>
    > >> Another solution would be to make debian-menu build .desktop
    > >> entries for the menu in the main menu namespace and not the
    > >> 'Debian' namespace; this seems like the easiest solution.

    >
    > > +1

    >
    > I don't think that the idea of superseding menu lacks support, it
    > lacks people doing the work (and the coding part seems small compared
    > to creating a mapping the categories, preferably in both directions,
    > and come up with a sane policy). Also, this seems to be something to
    > do shortly after a release...


    I've been approaching this as a sort-of-integrator point of view (I've
    been working on systems I've been giving away, and have been developing
    automation for the installation process that happens after
    debian-installer, and will be moving that to using debian-installer
    once I have figured out what I need. The results of this will probably
    be in lenny+1, but in the meantime I've got a post-install setup that
    lets me install a 'standard' system, and then run the post-install and
    end up with what I want) rather than dd point-of-view (because I'm not,
    et). In any event if there is already a nice summary of what needs
    doing, and any tips on how to do it, I'm game to work on it for lenny+1.

    I'd still like to see the debian menu as the main menu for lenny
    though ... though I may be the only one.

    --
    And that's my crabbing done for the day. Got it out of the way early,
    now I have the rest of the afternoon to sniff fragrant tea-roses or
    strangle cute bunnies or something. -- Michael Devore
    GnuPG Key Fingerprint 86 F5 81 A5 D4 2E 1F 1C http://gnupg.org
    No more sea shells: Daniel's Weblog http://cshore.wordpress.com

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  5. Re: gnome, kde, xfce use non-policy main menu

    Le Sat, Jul 05, 2008 at 10:54:30AM +0200, Thomas Viehmann a écrit :
    > it lacks people doing the work


    Hi all

    If the Debian menu system replaces the .menu format by the .desktop
    format for its files, I volunteer to work hard on helping the
    transition.

    Using natively the .desktop format would suppress the need for
    maintaining two files in parallel in many cases.

    Let's use standards when possible.

    Have a nice day,

    --
    Charles Plessy
    Tsurumi, Kanagawa, Japan


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  6. Re: gnome, kde, xfce use non-policy main menu

    Charles Plessy writes:

    > If the Debian menu system replaces the .menu format by the .desktop
    > format for its files, I volunteer to work hard on helping the
    > transition.
    >
    > Using natively the .desktop format would suppress the need for
    > maintaining two files in parallel in many cases.
    >
    > Let's use standards when possible.


    My recommendation would be to start by writing the standard that you
    believe Debian should follow for those files. Just referencing the XDG
    standard isn't sufficient for reasons pointed out in other threads, but
    certainly XDG is a place to start. I expect such a standard would point
    to XDG and then add additional specific interpretation and guidelines,
    mention any additional keys that Debian wants to support that aren't in
    the standard, and provide more specific instructions on how to use the
    category system produced upstream.

    Such a document could be developed in a way similar to how the proposed
    new copyright document is being developed, and then someone could
    implement Lintian checks based on it and the existing .desktop file checks
    and use those to get an idea of how much archive work is required to adopt
    the new standard.

    I think that writing a policy is the first necessary step and is the main
    thing required to move this conversation beyond a constantly recurring
    debian-devel thread and towards something that we can implement. Just
    saying "we should use .desktop files" is not sufficient; the standard
    isn't clear, Debian isn't following the standard currently, and there's no
    migration strategy. Closing those gaps is hard and necessary work, and
    until someone has a chance to do that work, this will stay stuck at the
    recurring conversation stage.

    Personally, I think that in the abstract moving Debian from a home-grown
    and locally-specified menu format towards a standard that we can share
    with other distributions and with upstream is a good idea, but there's a
    huge gap between current reality and that possible ideal world.

    --
    Russ Allbery (rra@debian.org)


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  7. Re: gnome, kde, xfce use non-policy main menu

    Le Sat, Jul 05, 2008 at 12:35:34PM -0700, Russ Allbery a écrit :
    >
    >
    > I think that writing a policy is the first necessary step and is the main
    > thing required to move this conversation beyond a constantly recurring
    > debian-devel thread and towards something that we can implement. Just
    > saying "we should use .desktop files" is not sufficient; the standard
    > isn't clear, Debian isn't following the standard currently, and there's no
    > migration strategy. Closing those gaps is hard and necessary work, and
    > until someone has a chance to do that work, this will stay stuck at the
    > recurring conversation stage.


    Le Mon, Jul 07, 2008 at 09:44:29PM +0200, Bill Allombert a écrit :
    >
    > I am only the 'Debian menu maintainer' and I do
    > not have time or interest to maintain the .desktop files in Debian.
    > Instead people (not you) ask me transparently to stop maintaining menu
    > and maintain the .desktop files instead, but no one is willing to do
    > the work. (And of course .desktop is about 10% of the XDG spec).



    Hi all,

    >From my maintainer point of view, the current situation leads to

    maintain in parallel two files with similar information and different
    syntax, with the main difference being that in the .desktop -> .menu
    conversion the translations are discarded. The big advantage of the
    ..desktop format is also that it can be forwarded upstream, so that it
    reduces the complexity of our packages and is useful to the whole
    communauty. This is exactly the contrary of adding a burden on the
    Debian maintainers and Bill.

    I think that Russ is very pessimistic on the quality of the XDG
    desktop entry sepcification. It uses a simple syntax and 18 different
    keys, only 4 of them being required. Many of the Lintian errors noted
    earlier in this thread are related to the desktop menu specification,
    which is a separate document.

    http://standards.freedesktop.org/des...y-spec/latest/
    http://standards.freedesktop.org/menu-spec/latest/

    Now we are close to Lenny release, and there is enough to keep us very
    busy until September, but after this, if Bill is interested, how about
    writing a DEP (Debian Enhancement Proposal)?

    Have a nice day,

    --
    Charles Plessy
    Debian-Med packaging team,
    Tsurumi, Kanagawa, Japan


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  8. Re: gnome, kde, xfce use non-policy main menu

    Charles Plessy writes:

    > I think that Russ is very pessimistic on the quality of the XDG desktop
    > entry sepcification. It uses a simple syntax and 18 different keys, only
    > 4 of them being required. Many of the Lintian errors noted earlier in
    > this thread are related to the desktop menu specification, which is a
    > separate document.


    > http://standards.freedesktop.org/des...y-spec/latest/
    > http://standards.freedesktop.org/menu-spec/latest/


    Russ formed his opinion by attempting to write code to the desktop entry
    specification without additional reference to existing implementations and
    watching it not work in the real world with real desktop entries. That's
    the acid test of a standard and the XDG desktop entry specification didn't
    fare well.

    The menu specification has other problems, but I am indeed also
    complaining about the XDG desktop entry specification and specifically
    saying that the desktop files in Debian do not universally comply with it,
    that it is unclear and underspecified, and that it needs clarity and
    additional work to be usable for a Debian policy.

    I do think that if we had such a standard and additional checks and the
    intention to enforce it, most of the problems with the desktop files in
    /usr/share/applications could be relatively quickly cleaned up. (The
    *.desktop files outside of /usr/share/applications are a whole different
    problem and are mostly a disaster from a compliance with the specification
    perspective, but that may not be an issue; most of the ones outside of
    that tree are legitimately used for internal purposes by different desktop
    systems and aren't necessarily intended to comply with a spec.)

    --
    Russ Allbery (rra@debian.org)


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