A suggestion - Debian

This is a discussion on A suggestion - Debian ; On Thu, Apr 03, 2008 at 03:35:21PM -0700, Mike Bird wrote: > On Thu April 3 2008 14:38:14 Moritz Muehlenhoff wrote: > > > > http://wiki.debian.org/EtchAndAHalf will solve that soon. > > Now that linux-image 2.6.24 has migrated from sid ...

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Thread: A suggestion

  1. Re: A suggestion

    On Thu, Apr 03, 2008 at 03:35:21PM -0700, Mike Bird wrote:
    > On Thu April 3 2008 14:38:14 Moritz Muehlenhoff wrote:
    > >
    > > http://wiki.debian.org/EtchAndAHalf will solve that soon.

    >
    > Now that linux-image 2.6.24 has migrated from sid to lenny and will
    > be included in EtchAndAHalf that helps a lot.


    It doesn't do vserver, which is a major bummer.

    And if the kernel team can't manage to get the vserver patches running, I
    don't think it makes sense for me to even give it a try (no time nor
    expertise there).

    --
    1KB // Microsoft corollary to Hanlon's razor:
    // Never attribute to stupidity what can be
    // adequately explained by malice.


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  2. Re: A suggestion

    On Fri, Apr 04, 2008 at 08:13:59AM +0900, Charles Plessy wrote:
    > Le Thu, Apr 03, 2008 at 10:55:40AM -0400, Lennart Sorensen a écrit :
    > >
    > > Given how much uproar there is about Microsoft's desire to retire
    > > Windows XP while many people would rather stick with it that go to
    > > Vista, perhaps the idea that everyone wants the latest and greatest is
    > > no longer true.

    >
    > Hi Lennart,
    >
    > I think that the way people use XP looks more like "Stable + Backports"
    > that just "Stable".
    >
    > As for the purpose of Testing, in the end the answer is probably in the
    > hands of those :
    > - who invented it;
    > - who control its content.
    >
    > On this list we can read opposite opinions of individual developpers,
    > so maybe the persons who feel "in charge" of Testing (probably the
    > release team, the FTP team, and the testing security team) can clarify
    > on the list and/or on the website if they think it is needed.


    Something like:

    If you run testing please use the following resources: foo/bar before
    submitting bugs or complaining on the debian-user mailing list.

    --
    Chris.
    ======

  3. Re: A suggestion

    On Wed, Apr 02, 2008 at 11:31:44PM +0200, Hendrik Sattler wrote:
    > Am Mittwoch 02 April 2008 schrieb Chris Bannister:
    > > On Tue, Apr 01, 2008 at 03:16:48PM +0200, Andrea Bolognani wrote:
    > > > On Tue, 1 Apr 2008 00:38:36 -0300
    > > >
    > > > Joel Franco wrote:
    > > > > I think that the testing or above releases may be suitable for the
    > > > > desktop of a EXPERT linux user. I need a stable release because my
    > > > > desktop must simply to work; it is not a so critical system like a
    > > > > server but this is critical to my business go on.
    > > > >
    > > > >From my experience, testing is perfectly suitable for a
    > > > > desktop/development
    > > >
    > > > system. I have used it exclusively on both my desktop and my laptop for a
    > > > couple of years now, and I have experienced only a couple of minor issues
    > > > so far.
    > > >
    > > > The main difference between a desktop and a server is that usually on a
    > > > server you can't afford any downtime, while on a desktop system you can
    > > > screw up and reinstall every once in a while if needed...

    > >
    > > Unfortunately, many people new to Debian/Linux get the impression that
    > > testing is perfectly suitable for a desktop system.

    >
    > It really depends on the person(s) using that desktop. But your wording
    > is "black or white" anyway (see: perfectly).


    My wording is just a paraphrase of the previous message. As for "It
    really depends on the person(s) using that desktop." I did say "people
    new to Debian/Linux".

    I agree testing/unstable is a good choice for someone who is fairly
    familiar with Debian. For example, being able to report bugs should be
    mandatory.

    Knowing where/how to peruse documentation. etc.

    --
    Chris.
    ======


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  4. Re: A suggestion

    On Thu, Apr 03, 2008 at 10:29:30AM +0900, Charles Plessy wrote:
    > Le Thu, Apr 03, 2008 at 01:44:56AM +1300, Chris Bannister a écrit :
    > >
    > > Unfortunately, many people new to Debian/Linux get the impression that
    > > testing is perfectly suitable for a desktop system.

    >
    > Maybe because they have read Debian's website?
    >
    > "things should not break as badly as in unstable or experimental
    > distributions"
    > http://www.debian.org/releases/testing/index.en.html
    >
    > "The unstable distribution is where active development of Debian
    > occurs. Generally, this distribution is run by developers"
    > http://www.debian.org/releases/index.en.html
    >
    > There is nothing in these pages that warns against the use of Testing on
    > a desktop system, except of course that Debian "primarily recommends
    > using" Etch.
    >
    > There are three alternative options for escaping Etch's bugs (for
    > instance white-on-white selections in Evince):
    >
    > - Backporting some packages by hand, but this requires skill.
    > - Using backports.org, but it is unofficial.
    > - Using Testing or Sid.
    >
    > If Debian wants to issue stronger warnings for those using Testing on
    > the desktop, maybe mentionning that it is also a development tool and it
    > is not inteded for normal use would do the job…


    Instead of advising a new user "If you can't cope with the problems of
    testing use stable" which sounds rather harsh and dismissive, especially
    if they were advised to download the testing netinst iso because it
    should better support their hardware, it would be better to point them
    to an official link[1] which points out what users should be aware of:

    * purpose of testing, i.e. not just a better stable.

    * pitfalls of using testing.

    * how to diagnose why their system broke

    + intelligent use of apt/aptitude/synaptic/whatever

    + installing apt-listbugs etc.

    + How to use the BTS/PTS to help diagnose and possibly
    find a fix to why their system suddenly went crook.

    + How to file a proper bug report. (Would be handy to
    read, in any case.)

    * Other resources like update-excuses, why is package foo not in
    testing yet, etc.


    etcetera.

    I don't host my own website on the net, otherwise I'd have a shot, but
    considering that it would then be unofficial, and considering the
    differences of opinion already from the many replies of I have read, and
    if there were any inaccuracies it may even cause more confusion to new
    users. Also there are probably more good resources than I am aware of,
    also I won't know of any additions or improvements to resources of this
    type.

    It annoys me when someone posts to debian-user with "the latest upgrade
    just broke my system -- what is going on?" sometimes in not so nice
    terms.

    [1] If there is one, my most humblest apologies and after the flaming,
    could you please advise where it is. I will download and read
    http://www.debian.org/releases/testing/index.en.html, but from Charles
    comments above it does not go that far.

    --
    Chris.
    ======

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