How to install Suggested (Was: Are all recommended modules equally important?) - Debian

This is a discussion on How to install Suggested (Was: Are all recommended modules equally important?) - Debian ; On Wed, 19 Mar 2008, Charles Plessy wrote: > By the way, is there a way to install package with all the 'Suggest'ed > dependancies, something like aptitude install bioperl --with-suggested ? I have > not found anything in the ...

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Thread: How to install Suggested (Was: Are all recommended modules equally important?)

  1. How to install Suggested (Was: Are all recommended modules equally important?)

    On Wed, 19 Mar 2008, Charles Plessy wrote:

    > By the way, is there a way to install package with all the 'Suggest'ed
    > dependancies, something like aptitude install bioperl --with-suggested ? I have
    > not found anything in the manpage.


    Neither did I in man apt-get, man apt.conf, man apt-config, man aptitude
    nor in the output of apt-get --help or aptitude --help.
    I'm sure there was such a method mentioned before and I can not imagine
    that there is no way to force installation of Suggested packages. So
    I would regard this as a documentation bug - but before I'm going
    to file a bug report I would like to hear the solution.

    Kind regards

    Andreas.

    --
    http://fam-tille.de


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  2. Re: How to install Suggested (Was: Are all recommended modules equally important?)

    Andreas Tille wrote:
    > On Wed, 19 Mar 2008, Charles Plessy wrote:
    >
    >> By the way, is there a way to install package with all the 'Suggest'ed
    >> dependancies, something like aptitude install bioperl --with-suggested
    >> ? I have
    >> not found anything in the manpage.

    >
    > Neither did I in man apt-get, man apt.conf, man apt-config, man aptitude
    > nor in the output of apt-get --help or aptitude --help.
    > I'm sure there was such a method mentioned before and I can not imagine
    > that there is no way to force installation of Suggested packages. So
    > I would regard this as a documentation bug - but before I'm going
    > to file a bug report I would like to hear the solution.
    >
    > Kind regards
    >
    > Andreas.
    >


    Hello Andreas,

    "man apt.conf" points you to
    /usr/share/doc/apt/examples/configure-index.gz. Maybe it has something
    you want. :-)

    Regards,
    ST
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  3. Re: How to install Suggested (Was: Are all recommended modules equally important?)

    On Wed, 19 Mar 2008, LUK ShunTim wrote:

    > "man apt.conf" points you to
    > /usr/share/doc/apt/examples/configure-index.gz. Maybe it has something
    > you want. :-)


    Ahhh, nice place to hide some information. Users only have to

    $ find /usr/share/doc/apt -type f -exec zgrep -li suggest \{\} \;
    ../changelog.gz
    ../examples/configure-index.gz

    Moreover fixing this in a config file is hardly a practical thing
    if I want to force installing Suggests only once I do not want to
    edit a config file but override the setting inside the config file
    with a command line option.

    BTW, there _is_ even a bug report #230295 about this issue and BTW
    it is a really interesting reading how maintainers might react on
    perfectly valid bug reports. :-( I also can not verify that this
    bug is a duplicate as Matt Zimmerman claimed, but I did not checked
    closed bugs which might perfectly contain some duplicates regarding
    Recommends which is in now included by default.

    On the other hand the manpage also does not match the string
    "recommend" and so I'm missing the information how to explicitely
    exclude recommends as well.

    Moreover the hint that aptitude might understand --with-suggests
    which was given in #230295 is not true any more.

    Any body else disagrees that this feature is missing or at least
    de-facto undocumented?

    Kind regards

    Andreas.

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  4. Re: How to install Suggested (Was: Are all recommended modules equally important?)

    On Wed, 19 Mar 2008, Andreas Tille wrote:
    > Moreover fixing this in a config file is hardly a practical thing if
    > I want to force installing Suggests only once I do not want to edit
    > a config file but override the setting inside the config file with a
    > command line option.


    So you do something like:

    apt-get -o APT::Install-Suggests=true install foo; or similar.

    [Though it probably should be an easier option, it is possible to do.]


    Don Armstrong

    --
    Three little words. (In decending order of importance.)
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    love
    you
    -- hugh macleod http://www.gapingvoid.com/graphics/batch35.php

    http://www.donarmstrong.com http://rzlab.ucr.edu


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  5. Re: How to install Suggested (Was: Are all recommended modules equally important?)

    On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 08:15:22AM +0100, Andreas Tille wrote:
    > I'm sure there was such a method mentioned before and I can not imagine
    > that there is no way to force installation of Suggested packages.


    dselect can be used to install suggested packages, even if perhaps it
    cannot "automatically force" their installation (without manual
    intervention).

    --
    Chi usa software non libero avvelena anche te. Digli di smettere.
    Informatica=arsenico: minime dosi in rari casi patologici, altrimenti letale.
    Informatica=bomba: intelligente solo per gli stupidi che ci credono.


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  6. Re: How to install Suggested (Was: Are all recommended modules equally important?)

    Andreas Tille wrote:
    > On Wed, 19 Mar 2008, LUK ShunTim wrote:
    >
    >> "man apt.conf" points you to
    >> /usr/share/doc/apt/examples/configure-index.gz. Maybe it has something
    >> you want. :-)

    >
    > Ahhh, nice place to hide some information. Users only have to
    >
    > $ find /usr/share/doc/apt -type f -exec zgrep -li suggest \{\} \;
    > ./changelog.gz
    > ./examples/configure-index.gz


    I'm just a user, and not that sophisticated. :-)

    [snipped]

    >
    > Any body else disagrees that this feature is missing or at least
    > de-facto undocumented?


    No, no disagreement from me. :-) It'd certainly be nice if all relevant
    information are in one place, clear and precise. And a "man whatever"
    gives you everything you want.

    BTW, it just struck me that the style of the apt.conf manpage is
    somewhat different -- more like some explanatory essay than telling you
    how to do something. It relegates the details to an example document.

    >
    > Kind regards
    >
    > Andreas.
    >


    Regards,
    ST
    --


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  7. Re: How to install Suggested (Was: Are all recommended modules equally important?)

    On Wed, 19 Mar 2008, Don Armstrong wrote:

    > So you do something like:
    >
    > apt-get -o APT::Install-Suggests=true install foo; or similar.
    >
    > [Though it probably should be an easier option, it is possible to do.]


    Well, this hint was given now in the initial thread on Debian-Med
    and well, this actually would be an option - but if I fail to find
    this documented in the man pages I posted I think it is not
    apropriately documented. I also was sure that it is _possible_,
    but IMHO this is (1) a quite difficult option for a feature that might
    be needed by users who do not want to dive into details of apt and
    (2) not properly documented.

    Do you think that I should file (1) and (2) as different wishlist
    bug reports or is it rather one single problem. Or am I the only
    one who thinks this is a real problem. I'm a little bit reluctant
    to add a further bug to apt which just has gathered anough that
    might be considered as hot air.

    Kind regards

    Andreas.

    --
    http://fam-tille.de


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  8. Re: How to install Suggested (Was: Are all recommended modules equally important?)

    This one time, at band camp, Andreas Tille said:
    > On Wed, 19 Mar 2008, LUK ShunTim wrote:
    >
    > >"man apt.conf" points you to
    > >/usr/share/doc/apt/examples/configure-index.gz. Maybe it has something
    > >you want. :-)

    >
    > Ahhh, nice place to hide some information. Users only have to


    sg@alioth:~$ man apt.conf | grep /usr/share/doc/apt/examples/configure-index.gz | wc -l
    3

    I think that's called hidden in plain sight.
    --
    -----------------------------------------------------------------
    | ,''`. Stephen Gran |
    | : :' : sgran@debian.org |
    | `. `' Debian user, admin, and developer |
    | `- http://www.debian.org |
    -----------------------------------------------------------------

    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
    Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux)

    iD8DBQFH4RxNSYIMHOpZA44RAiRAAJ0cLFshXizhDzNwI9afHv wwPbu2IACgtrnR
    ZcPiJkM6I7kEIlPX1PYmQNs=
    =Ikx1
    -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


  9. Re: How to install Suggested (Was: Are all recommended modules equally important?)

    On Wed, 19 Mar 2008, Stephen Gran wrote:

    >> Ahhh, nice place to hide some information. Users only have to

    >
    > sg@alioth:~$ man apt.conf | grep /usr/share/doc/apt/examples/configure-index.gz | wc -l
    > 3
    >
    > I think that's called hidden in plain sight.


    I would not call it intuitive that you should grep for configure-index
    if you are seeking for a command line option and even if you would
    find this file you will also have to fiddle around with the small note

    Scope notation must be used if an option is specified on the command line with -o.

    how to actually use it. This is far away from being intuitive (or my
    intuition is terribly broken - that's why I'm verifying here whether
    it is worth a bug report).

    So I stick to my "perfectly hidden" statement. Other arguments?

    Kind regards

    Andreas.

    --
    http://fam-tille.de


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  10. Re: How to install Suggested (Was: Are all recommended modules equally important?)


    "Andreas Tille" wrote in message
    news:alpine.DEB.1.00.0803191210010.21847@wr-linux02...
    > On Wed, 19 Mar 2008, Don Armstrong wrote:
    >
    >> So you do something like:
    >>
    >> apt-get -o APT::Install-Suggests=true install foo; or similar.
    >>
    >> [Though it probably should be an easier option, it is possible to do.]

    >
    > Well, this hint was given now in the initial thread on Debian-Med
    > and well, this actually would be an option - but if I fail to find
    > this documented in the man pages I posted I think it is not
    > apropriately documented. I also was sure that it is _possible_,
    > but IMHO this is (1) a quite difficult option for a feature that might
    > be needed by users who do not want to dive into details of apt and
    > (2) not properly documented.
    >


    I will say the following. I fully agree that "--install-suggests" should
    exist, and should do the right thing. It sounds like an easy enough feature
    to add, my guess is that the code for installing or not installing
    recommends could be adapted to work with relatively little difficulty. (I'm
    guessing the recommends feature is simply setting a configuration option, so
    duplicating it and changing the option set should work. I may be wrong
    though.) That is definately a wishlist bug.

    As for the apt.conf configuartion option, I think it is documented in the
    correct place (configure-index.gz), although it may be wise to mention that
    file from the main apt-get manpage, as a list of other options that can be
    used through the -o command line option. That mention is worth a seperate
    wishlist bug.

    Finally, if the documention indicating how one uses the -o command line
    option is not clear (the apt-get manpage should definately have at least one
    example of that options use), then that is annother wishlist bug, but may be
    worth merging in with the previous one.



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  11. Re: Re: How to install Suggested (Was: Are all recommended modules equally important?)

    >
    > On Wed, 19 Mar 2008, Don Armstrong wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    > So you do something like:
    >
    > apt-get -o APT::Install-Suggests=true install foo; or similar.
    >
    > [Though it probably should be an easier option, it is possible to do.]
    >
    >
    > Well, this hint was given now in the initial thread on Debian-Med
    > and well, this actually would be an option - but if I fail to find
    > this documented in the man pages I posted I think it is not
    > apropriately documented. I also was sure that it is _possible_,
    > but IMHO this is (1) a quite difficult option for a feature that might
    > be needed by users who do not want to dive into details of apt and
    > (2) not properly documented.
    >
    > Do you think that I should file (1) and (2) as different wishlist
    > bug reports or is it rather one single problem.

    Different problems, though fixing 1 may make the fix for 2 useless...
    > Or am I the only
    > one who thinks this is a real problem.

    ....but I don't think it's a "real" problem. If someone is looking for
    such an option, that must be because selecting suggestions is not
    implemented. Which would be because apt-get is rather deprecated in
    favor of aptitude. So I think the right fix would be to implement a way
    to select suggestions in aptitude (if that's not already done, I don't
    use it).
    > I'm a little bit reluctant
    > to add a further bug to apt which just has gathered anough that
    > might be considered as hot air.
    >
    > Kind regards
    >
    > Andreas.



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  12. Installation of suggested packages: recursive or not?

    Le Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 02:05:05PM -0400, Joe Smith a écrit :
    > >On Wed, 19 Mar 2008, Don Armstrong wrote:
    > >>
    > >>apt-get -o APT::Install-Suggests=true install foo; or similar.


    > I will say the following. I fully agree that "--install-suggests" should
    > exist, and should do the right thing.


    Hi all,

    I was about to submit a wishlist bug, and then wondererd: isn't '-o
    APT::Install-Suggests=true' recursive? (In the sense that it will also
    add the suggested packages from the suggested packages.) The
    --install-suggests I have in my mind is not: the user cases would be
    with our CDD metapackages, that either Recommend or Suggest, or packages
    like t-coffee or bioperl that have a long list of suggested packages
    that are usually dispensable.

    By this mail, I just would like to check that those use cases are not
    corner cases, and that asking for a non-recursive "--install-suggests"
    option also makes sense to others.

    Have a nice day,

    --
    Charles
    Debian-Med packaging team
    Wakō, Saitama, Japan


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  13. Re: Installation of suggested packages: recursive or not?

    On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 12:38:17PM +0900, Charles Plessy was heard to say:
    > Le Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 02:05:05PM -0400, Joe Smith a crit :
    > > >On Wed, 19 Mar 2008, Don Armstrong wrote:
    > > >>
    > > >>apt-get -o APT::Install-Suggests=true install foo; or similar.

    >
    > > I will say the following. I fully agree that "--install-suggests" should
    > > exist, and should do the right thing.

    >
    > Hi all,
    >
    > I was about to submit a wishlist bug, and then wondererd: isn't '-o
    > APT::Install-Suggests=true' recursive? (In the sense that it will also
    > add the suggested packages from the suggested packages.) The
    > --install-suggests I have in my mind is not: the user cases would be
    > with our CDD metapackages, that either Recommend or Suggest, or packages
    > like t-coffee or bioperl that have a long list of suggested packages
    > that are usually dispensable.


    Yes, it is. That's why I yanked it from aptitude: at the time,
    turning on the installation of Suggests would reliably result in huge
    swathes of packages being installed for some innocuous program. This
    may have changed since then.

    To see (more or less) what installing Suggests will do to your system,
    run:

    aptitude -s -o 'APT::Install-Suggests=true' -o 'APT::AutoRemove::SuggestsImportant=true' install '~RBsuggests:~i'

    On my computer, after a pile of dependency failures, I got:

    0 packages upgraded, 386 newly installed, 1 to remove and 2 not upgraded.
    Need to get 505MB of archives. After unpacking 1854MB will be used.

    Some people will find that acceptable, others won't.


    A secondary problem is that automatic dependency removal will remove
    packages whose strongest link to a manual package is a Suggests. If you
    ever turn on Suggests-installation as a one-shot deal, you need to
    either also mark all the suggested packages as manual, or turn on "keep
    suggested packages on the system" (APT::AutoRemove::Suggests-Important).


    BTW, aptitude already supports non-recursively installing Suggests, and
    flagging them as manual at the same time: "~Rsuggests:^package$" will
    install everything that's directly suggested by "package".

    Daniel


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  14. Re: Installation of suggested packages: recursive or not?

    Le Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 08:13:30AM -0700, Daniel Burrows a écrit :
    >
    > BTW, aptitude already supports non-recursively installing Suggests, and
    > flagging them as manual at the same time: "~Rsuggests:^package$" will
    > install everything that's directly suggested by "package".


    Dear Daniel,

    Thanks for the suggestion. Do you think that there could be an option
    that does the same except that the package would be flagged "auto" ? If
    you are busy I can help updating the documentation. I would like to
    provide an easy to remember way to perform this task for the users of
    the packages I mentioned earlier (med-bio, t-coffee, bioperl).

    Have a nice day,

    --
    Charles Plessy
    http://charles.plessy.org
    Wakō, Saitama, Japan


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  15. Re: Installation of suggested packages: recursive or not?

    On Sat, Mar 22, 2008 at 02:21:52PM +0900, Charles Plessy was heard to say:
    > Le Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 08:13:30AM -0700, Daniel Burrows a crit :
    > >
    > > BTW, aptitude already supports non-recursively installing Suggests, and
    > > flagging them as manual at the same time: "~Rsuggests:^package$" will
    > > install everything that's directly suggested by "package".

    >
    > Dear Daniel,
    >
    > Thanks for the suggestion. Do you think that there could be an option
    > that does the same except that the package would be flagged "auto" ? If
    > you are busy I can help updating the documentation. I would like to
    > provide an easy to remember way to perform this task for the users of
    > the packages I mentioned earlier (med-bio, t-coffee, bioperl).


    There could be. In fact, you can get it now:

    "~Rsuggests:^package$+M" (the "+M" means "install it and mark it
    automatic")

    On the other hand, resurrecting "--with-suggests" would be a more
    friendly way of doing this. I think I would add a sanity-check to force
    you to turn on "SuggestsImportant" in the config file first: if you
    don't, the newly installed packages will be unused and the installs will
    be immediately canceled.

    Daniel

  16. Re: Installation of suggested packages: recursive or not?

    > > Le Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 08:13:30AM -0700, Daniel Burrows a écrit :
    > > > BTW, aptitude already supports non-recursively installing Suggests, and
    > > > flagging them as manual at the same time: "~Rsuggests:^package$" will
    > > > install everything that's directly suggested by "package".


    > On Sat, Mar 22, 2008 at 02:21:52PM +0900, Charles Plessy was heard to say:
    > > Do you think that there could be an option
    > > that does the same except that the package would be flagged "auto" ?


    Le Mon, Mar 24, 2008 at 08:03:27AM -0700, Daniel Burrows a écrit :
    > There could be. In fact, you can get it now:
    >
    > "~Rsuggests:^package$+M" (the "+M" means "install it and mark it
    > automatic")
    >
    > On the other hand, resurrecting "--with-suggests" would be a more
    > friendly way of doing this. I think I would add a sanity-check to force
    > you to turn on "SuggestsImportant" in the config file first: if you
    > don't, the newly installed packages will be unused and the installs will
    > be immediately canceled.



    Hi again,

    on a second thought, I think that it would be better to have the suggested
    package installed by --with-suggests to be flagged "manual" than to require
    the user to switch the behaviour of the whole system to
    "SuggestsImportant".

    For my original problem, another solution would simply to provide a
    metapackage that recommends the original package plus everything it
    suggests.

    Have a nice day,

    --
    Charles Plessy
    http://charles.plessy.org
    Wakō, Saitama, Japan


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  17. Re: How to install Suggested (Was: Are all recommended modules equally important?)

    On Wed, 19 Mar 2008, Joe Smith wrote:

    > I will say the following. I fully agree that "--install-suggests" should
    > exist, and should do the right thing. It sounds like an easy enough feature
    > to add, my guess is that the code for installing or not installing recommends
    > could be adapted to work with relatively little difficulty. (I'm guessing the
    > recommends feature is simply setting a configuration option, so duplicating
    > it and changing the option set should work. I may be wrong though.) That is
    > definately a wishlist bug.


    #473079

    > As for the apt.conf configuartion option, I think it is documented in the
    > correct place (configure-index.gz), although it may be wise to mention that
    > file from the main apt-get manpage, as a list of other options that can be
    > used through the -o command line option. That mention is worth a seperate
    > wishlist bug.
    >
    > Finally, if the documention indicating how one uses the -o command line
    > option is not clear (the apt-get manpage should definately have at least one
    > example of that options use), then that is annother wishlist bug, but may be
    > worth merging in with the previous one.


    #473089
    Tags: patch

    Kind regards

    Andreas.

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