kernel 2.6.24 & speakup - Debian

This is a discussion on kernel 2.6.24 & speakup - Debian ; Hello, I was wondering: since one of the goals of d-i for Lenny is to have a 2.6.24 kernel, and that it happens that that kernel has enough hooks for speakup to be compiled as a module, would it be ...

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Thread: kernel 2.6.24 & speakup

  1. kernel 2.6.24 & speakup

    Hello,

    I was wondering: since one of the goals of d-i for Lenny is to have a
    2.6.24 kernel, and that it happens that that kernel has enough hooks for
    speakup to be compiled as a module, would it be ok to include speakup in
    the standard images, as a module which would be auto-loaded through a
    kernel parameter?

    Samuel


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  2. Re: kernel 2.6.24 & speakup

    On Tuesday 18 March 2008, Samuel Thibault wrote:
    > I was wondering: since one of the goals of d-i for Lenny is to have a
    > 2.6.24 kernel, and that it happens that that kernel has enough hooks for
    > speakup to be compiled as a module, would it be ok to include speakup in
    > the standard images, as a module which would be auto-loaded through a
    > kernel parameter?


    IMO that should not be a problem. Depending on the size of the size of the
    module we may not be able to add it to floppy images for example, but CD
    images and possibly netboot should not be a problem.

    The module will first need to be included in the regular Debian kernel image
    packages of course.

    Cheers,
    FJP

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  3. Re: kernel 2.6.24 & speakup

    (No need to CC me, please just mail the debian-boot list.)

    On Tuesday 18 March 2008, Samuel Thibault wrote:
    > > The module will first need to be included in the regular Debian kernel
    > > image packages of course.

    >
    > Ah, can't it be a separate package?
    > (speakup can now be compiled fully independently)


    You'll need to discuss that with the kernel team. From an installer PoV life
    would be slightly easier if it were included in the regular kernel images.
    And if it is part of the upstream kernel source, I personally see no reason
    why it should not be.

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  4. Re: kernel 2.6.24 & speakup

    Frans Pop, le Tue 18 Mar 2008 21:05:30 +0100, a écrit :
    > On Tuesday 18 March 2008, Samuel Thibault wrote:
    > > I was wondering: since one of the goals of d-i for Lenny is to have a
    > > 2.6.24 kernel, and that it happens that that kernel has enough hooks for
    > > speakup to be compiled as a module, would it be ok to include speakup in
    > > the standard images, as a module which would be auto-loaded through a
    > > kernel parameter?

    >
    > IMO that should not be a problem. Depending on the size of the size of the
    > module we may not be able to add it to floppy images for example, but CD
    > images and possibly netboot should not be a problem.


    It is 80KB for the core + ~8KB per driver (there are 15), so about 200KB.

    Not having it on a floppy image may not so much be a problem if it is on
    the regular USB/CD images.

    > The module will first need to be included in the regular Debian kernel image
    > packages of course.


    Ah, can't it be a separate package?
    (speakup can now be compiled fully independently)

    Samuel


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  5. Re: kernel 2.6.24 & speakup

    Samuel Thibault writes:

    > Frans Pop, le Tue 18 Mar 2008 21:05:30 +0100, a écrit :
    >> On Tuesday 18 March 2008, Samuel Thibault wrote:
    >> > I was wondering: since one of the goals of d-i for Lenny is to have a
    >> > 2.6.24 kernel, and that it happens that that kernel has enough hooks for
    >> > speakup to be compiled as a module, would it be ok to include speakup in
    >> > the standard images, as a module which would be auto-loaded through a
    >> > kernel parameter?


    [...]

    >> The module will first need to be included in the regular Debian kernel image
    >> packages of course.

    >
    > Ah, can't it be a separate package?


    Isn't linux-modules-extra-2.6 where all the extra modules belong?
    Seems logical to work speakup into the linux-modules-extra-2.6 source
    package and have it produce binary packages named speakup-modules-2.6* like
    the other module packages in there.

    > (speakup can now be compiled fully independently)


    linux-modules-extra-2.6 seems like the perfect place for speakup, now that it
    does not require the kernel to be patched anymore.

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  6. Re: kernel 2.6.24 & speakup

    Hello,

    Mario Lang, le Tue 25 Mar 2008 17:28:32 +0100, a écrit :
    > Samuel Thibault writes:
    > > (speakup can now be compiled fully independently)

    >
    > linux-modules-extra-2.6 seems like the perfect place for speakup, now that it
    > does not require the kernel to be patched anymore.


    Well, a small patch is still needed, but it just boils down to
    GPL-exporting 4 symbols, and that is already in the -mm tree, so
    backporting it to the debian kernel shouldn't be a problem..

    Samuel


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  7. Re: kernel 2.6.24 & speakup

    On Tuesday 25 March 2008, Mario Lang wrote:
    > >> The module will first need to be included in the regular Debian kernel
    > >> image packages of course.

    > >
    > > Ah, can't it be a separate package?

    >
    > Isn't linux-modules-extra-2.6 where all the extra modules belong?
    > Seems logical to work speakup into the linux-modules-extra-2.6 source
    > package and have it produce binary packages named speakup-modules-2.6*
    > like the other module packages in there.
    >
    > > (speakup can now be compiled fully independently)

    >
    > linux-modules-extra-2.6 seems like the perfect place for speakup, now
    > that it does not require the kernel to be patched anymore.


    No, linux-modules-* is for out-of-tree modules, NOT for modules that are
    included in the upstream kernel source.

    Cheers,
    FJP

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  8. Re: kernel 2.6.24 & speakup

    Samuel Thibault writes:

    > Hello,
    >
    > Mario Lang, le Tue 25 Mar 2008 17:28:32 +0100, a écrit :
    >> Samuel Thibault writes:
    >> > (speakup can now be compiled fully independently)

    >>
    >> linux-modules-extra-2.6 seems like the perfect place for speakup, now that it
    >> does not require the kernel to be patched anymore.

    >
    > Well, a small patch is still needed, but it just boils down to
    > GPL-exporting 4 symbols, and that is already in the -mm tree, so
    > backporting it to the debian kernel shouldn't be a problem..


    It would be nice if you could talk to Debian Kernel Team (just added
    it to cc list) and see if this could be added for next 2.6.24 upload
    or later. That would allow the module to be build from
    linux-modules-extra-2.6 and later to be added to d-i if needed.

    --
    O T A V I O S A L V A D O R
    ---------------------------------------------
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    GNU/Linux User: 239058 GPG ID: 49A5F855
    Home Page: http://otavio.ossystems.com.br
    ---------------------------------------------
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  9. Re: kernel 2.6.24 & speakup

    Samuel Thibault writes:

    > Hello,
    >
    > Mario Lang, le Tue 25 Mar 2008 17:28:32 +0100, a écrit :
    >> Samuel Thibault writes:
    >> > (speakup can now be compiled fully independently)

    >>
    >> linux-modules-extra-2.6 seems like the perfect place for speakup, now that it
    >> does not require the kernel to be patched anymore.

    >
    > Well, a small patch is still needed, but it just boils down to
    > GPL-exporting 4 symbols, and that is already in the -mm tree, so
    > backporting it to the debian kernel shouldn't be a problem..


    It would be nice if you could talk to Debian Kernel Team (just added
    it to cc list) and see if this could be added for next 2.6.24 upload
    or later. That would allow the module to be build from
    linux-modules-extra-2.6 and later to be added to d-i if needed.

    --
    O T A V I O S A L V A D O R
    ---------------------------------------------
    E-mail: otavio@debian.org UIN: 5906116
    GNU/Linux User: 239058 GPG ID: 49A5F855
    Home Page: http://otavio.ossystems.com.br
    ---------------------------------------------
    "Microsoft sells you Windows ... Linux gives
    you the whole house."

  10. Re: kernel 2.6.24 & speakup

    Frans Pop, le Tue 25 Mar 2008 18:46:34 +0100, a écrit :
    > On Tuesday 25 March 2008, Mario Lang wrote:
    > > >> The module will first need to be included in the regular Debian kernel
    > > >> image packages of course.
    > > >
    > > > Ah, can't it be a separate package?

    > >
    > > Isn't linux-modules-extra-2.6 where all the extra modules belong?
    > > Seems logical to work speakup into the linux-modules-extra-2.6 source
    > > package and have it produce binary packages named speakup-modules-2.6*
    > > like the other module packages in there.
    > >
    > > > (speakup can now be compiled fully independently)

    > >
    > > linux-modules-extra-2.6 seems like the perfect place for speakup, now
    > > that it does not require the kernel to be patched anymore.

    >
    > No, linux-modules-* is for out-of-tree modules, NOT for modules that are
    > included in the upstream kernel source.


    Err, OK, and?

    The idea is to compile the speakup module out-of-tree but still include
    it in d-i.

    Samuel


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  11. Re: kernel 2.6.24 & speakup

    (Please don't CC me on list mail.)

    On Tuesday 25 March 2008, Samuel Thibault wrote:
    > The idea is to compile the speakup module out-of-tree but still include
    > it in d-i.


    Why would you want to compile a module that is in-tree as an out-of-tree
    module? It just does not make any sense to me.

    Anyway, this is not a D-I decision. You should discuss it with the kernel
    team.

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  12. Re: kernel 2.6.24 & speakup

    On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 03:06:58PM -0300, Otavio Salvador wrote:
    > Samuel Thibault writes:
    >
    > > Hello,
    > >
    > > Mario Lang, le Tue 25 Mar 2008 17:28:32 +0100, a écrit :
    > >> Samuel Thibault writes:
    > >> > (speakup can now be compiled fully independently)
    > >>
    > >> linux-modules-extra-2.6 seems like the perfect place for speakup, now that it
    > >> does not require the kernel to be patched anymore.

    > >
    > > Well, a small patch is still needed, but it just boils down to
    > > GPL-exporting 4 symbols, and that is already in the -mm tree, so
    > > backporting it to the debian kernel shouldn't be a problem..

    >
    > It would be nice if you could talk to Debian Kernel Team (just added
    > it to cc list) and see if this could be added for next 2.6.24 upload
    > or later. That would allow the module to be build from
    > linux-modules-extra-2.6 and later to be added to d-i if needed.


    ok thanks for informing us.

    afair we had a discussion about speakup and it would point to
    security troubles of that patch.
    but i don't remember the cicurmstances why it got droped
    when going from 2.4 to 2.6?


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  13. Re: kernel 2.6.24 & speakup

    On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 03:06:58PM -0300, Otavio Salvador wrote:
    > Samuel Thibault writes:
    >
    > > Hello,
    > >
    > > Mario Lang, le Tue 25 Mar 2008 17:28:32 +0100, a écrit :
    > >> Samuel Thibault writes:
    > >> > (speakup can now be compiled fully independently)
    > >>
    > >> linux-modules-extra-2.6 seems like the perfect place for speakup, now that it
    > >> does not require the kernel to be patched anymore.

    > >
    > > Well, a small patch is still needed, but it just boils down to
    > > GPL-exporting 4 symbols, and that is already in the -mm tree, so
    > > backporting it to the debian kernel shouldn't be a problem..

    >
    > It would be nice if you could talk to Debian Kernel Team (just added
    > it to cc list) and see if this could be added for next 2.6.24 upload
    > or later. That would allow the module to be build from
    > linux-modules-extra-2.6 and later to be added to d-i if needed.


    ok thanks for informing us.

    afair we had a discussion about speakup and it would point to
    security troubles of that patch.
    but i don't remember the cicurmstances why it got droped
    when going from 2.4 to 2.6?


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  14. Re: kernel 2.6.24 & speakup

    Frans Pop writes:

    > (Please don't CC me on list mail.)
    >
    > On Tuesday 25 March 2008, Samuel Thibault wrote:
    >> The idea is to compile the speakup module out-of-tree but still include
    >> it in d-i.

    >
    > Why would you want to compile a module that is in-tree as an out-of-tree
    > module? It just does not make any sense to me.
    >
    > Anyway, this is not a D-I decision. You should discuss it with the kernel
    > team.


    speakup isn't in-tree. It was include as a patchset previously and now
    has the opportunity to be build as an out-of-tree module. I think that
    is what Samuel means.

    So this does fits for the l-m-e-2.6.

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  15. Re: kernel 2.6.24 & speakup

    Frans Pop, le Tue 25 Mar 2008 19:29:56 +0100, a écrit :
    > (Please don't CC me on list mail.)


    Then tell your mailer to use followup-to

    > On Tuesday 25 March 2008, Samuel Thibault wrote:
    > > The idea is to compile the speakup module out-of-tree but still include
    > > it in d-i.

    >
    > Why would you want to compile a module that is in-tree as an out-of-tree
    > module?


    Mmm, maybe I don't understand what you mean by "in-tree".

    The idea is not to compile speakup built into the kernel, but just as a
    module, and then it doesn't need to be integrated to the kernel build
    system, but just be compiled separately, just like exmap, ndiswrapper,
    spca5xx etc.

    Samuel


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  16. Re: kernel 2.6.24 & speakup

    Frans Pop, le Tue 25 Mar 2008 19:29:56 +0100, a écrit :
    > (Please don't CC me on list mail.)


    Then tell your mailer to use followup-to

    > On Tuesday 25 March 2008, Samuel Thibault wrote:
    > > The idea is to compile the speakup module out-of-tree but still include
    > > it in d-i.

    >
    > Why would you want to compile a module that is in-tree as an out-of-tree
    > module?


    Mmm, maybe I don't understand what you mean by "in-tree".

    The idea is not to compile speakup built into the kernel, but just as a
    module, and then it doesn't need to be integrated to the kernel build
    system, but just be compiled separately, just like exmap, ndiswrapper,
    spca5xx etc.

    Samuel


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  17. Re: kernel 2.6.24 & speakup

    Samuel Thibault, le Tue 25 Mar 2008 18:39:54 +0000, a écrit :
    > Apply patches/kernel-integration-2.6.24-source.patch to the main kernel
    > source to GPL-export 4 symbols,


    Note: by that, I mean to pick that patch into the regular linux-2.6
    kernel. That patch is already in the -mm tree actually.

    Samuel


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  18. Re: kernel 2.6.24 & speakup

    Samuel Thibault, le Tue 25 Mar 2008 18:39:54 +0000, a écrit :
    > Apply patches/kernel-integration-2.6.24-source.patch to the main kernel
    > source to GPL-export 4 symbols,


    Note: by that, I mean to pick that patch into the regular linux-2.6
    kernel. That patch is already in the -mm tree actually.

    Samuel


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  19. Re: kernel 2.6.24 & speakup

    Hello,

    maximilian attems, le Tue 25 Mar 2008 19:31:03 +0100, a écrit :
    > On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 03:06:58PM -0300, Otavio Salvador wrote:
    > > Samuel Thibault writes:
    > >
    > > > Hello,
    > > >
    > > > Mario Lang, le Tue 25 Mar 2008 17:28:32 +0100, a écrit :
    > > >> Samuel Thibault writes:
    > > >> > (speakup can now be compiled fully independently)
    > > >>
    > > >> linux-modules-extra-2.6 seems like the perfect place for speakup, now that it
    > > >> does not require the kernel to be patched anymore.
    > > >
    > > > Well, a small patch is still needed, but it just boils down to
    > > > GPL-exporting 4 symbols, and that is already in the -mm tree, so
    > > > backporting it to the debian kernel shouldn't be a problem..

    > >
    > > It would be nice if you could talk to Debian Kernel Team (just added
    > > it to cc list) and see if this could be added for next 2.6.24 upload
    > > or later. That would allow the module to be build from
    > > linux-modules-extra-2.6 and later to be added to d-i if needed.

    >
    > ok thanks for informing us.
    >
    > afair we had a discussion about speakup and it would point to
    > security troubles of that patch.
    > but i don't remember the cicurmstances why it got droped
    > when going from 2.4 to 2.6?


    Well, things have evolved a lot since then. Speakup used to need to
    patch the kernel quite heavily in order to get keyboard & screen access.
    I have worked with lkml to integrate that part much more nicely with
    notifiers, and it is now part of 2.6.24. The result is that the patch
    that Speakup needs is now reduced to exporting the inverse_translate,
    kbd_table, kd_mksound, and screen_glyph symbols, which is already the
    case in the -mm tree. As a consequence, speakup can now be compiled
    as a separate module which can be loaded only when necessary (blind
    people).

    Samuel


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  20. Re: kernel 2.6.24 & speakup

    Hello,

    maximilian attems, le Tue 25 Mar 2008 19:31:03 +0100, a écrit :
    > On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 03:06:58PM -0300, Otavio Salvador wrote:
    > > Samuel Thibault writes:
    > >
    > > > Hello,
    > > >
    > > > Mario Lang, le Tue 25 Mar 2008 17:28:32 +0100, a écrit :
    > > >> Samuel Thibault writes:
    > > >> > (speakup can now be compiled fully independently)
    > > >>
    > > >> linux-modules-extra-2.6 seems like the perfect place for speakup, now that it
    > > >> does not require the kernel to be patched anymore.
    > > >
    > > > Well, a small patch is still needed, but it just boils down to
    > > > GPL-exporting 4 symbols, and that is already in the -mm tree, so
    > > > backporting it to the debian kernel shouldn't be a problem..

    > >
    > > It would be nice if you could talk to Debian Kernel Team (just added
    > > it to cc list) and see if this could be added for next 2.6.24 upload
    > > or later. That would allow the module to be build from
    > > linux-modules-extra-2.6 and later to be added to d-i if needed.

    >
    > ok thanks for informing us.
    >
    > afair we had a discussion about speakup and it would point to
    > security troubles of that patch.
    > but i don't remember the cicurmstances why it got droped
    > when going from 2.4 to 2.6?


    Well, things have evolved a lot since then. Speakup used to need to
    patch the kernel quite heavily in order to get keyboard & screen access.
    I have worked with lkml to integrate that part much more nicely with
    notifiers, and it is now part of 2.6.24. The result is that the patch
    that Speakup needs is now reduced to exporting the inverse_translate,
    kbd_table, kd_mksound, and screen_glyph symbols, which is already the
    case in the -mm tree. As a consequence, speakup can now be compiled
    as a separate module which can be loaded only when necessary (blind
    people).

    Samuel


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