On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 02:21:45AM -0700, Don Armstrong was heard to say:
> On Tue, 18 Mar 2008, Anthony Towns wrote:
> > I guess there's an inequality like:
> >
> > images on mirrors <= images on torrents <= images via jigdo
>
> Is there any way we can construct the torrent image on the fly from
> the jigdo file? [That is, transform the packages that make up bits
> x<->y into what they'd be on the iso?]

Or maybe you could use debtorrent to download the files to fill out
the jigdo image? (Disclaimer: I haven't used debtorrent so I don't
know how efficient using it this way would be)

Daniel


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Paul Cager dijo [Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 12:29:04AM +0000]:
> [...]
> > 1. Is it worth making full sets of CDs at all? Can we rely on people
> > having a net connection or being able to use DVDs if they want
> > *everything*?
> > 2. Is it worth producing all the CDs/DVDs/whatever for all the
> > architectures?
> > 3. For some arches, should we just provide the first couple of CDs
> > and a full set of DVDs? This is a bit of a compromise option - if
> > a given machine will not boot from DVD, but can boot from CD and
> > get the rest of its packages from a network share then all's good.
> > 4. ??? - what else would be a sane option?
>
> (I'd better disclose a conflict of interest - I sell Debian CDs and DVDs).
>
> I'd quite like there to be full sets for i386 and amd64. I think an
> inexperienced user could find it quite discouraging to have to
> install using a mapped drive.
>
> What about a modification of 3? For the less popular arches we
> provide the first couple of CD images, but the other CDs are only
> available as jigdo downloads. Does that make sense? You'd still
> have to create every CD image, of course, but the mirrors would have
> to carry much less data / traffic.

Official mirrors only carry the individual .debs and the Jigdo
description files So I think your proposal is dealt with. Of
course, some people provide pre-cooked ISO files for download.

/me throws question at the void: Would it be feasible to get something
akin to an inverse-FUSE that presents ISO files in the presence of the
individual debs and Jigdo files? Yes, it would probably be much more
processor-intensive than just downloading a file, so I might be
talking nonsense...

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Anthony Towns dijo [Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 03:39:05PM +1000]:
> (...)
> and the real question is where you say "if you really want the 23rd CD
> for mipsel, you're probably smart/dedicated enough to use jigdo".

I completely agree with this. I don't think we must carry every CD for
every arch forever!

BTW... 30 CDs are too many CDs. Just too ****ing many. We could also
cut down on them - i.e. produce only the first 8 CDs per arch, and
have the rest only as DVDs. Yes, many people still do not have DVD
drives handy, but then again, 8 CDs + network access + a bit of
patience for the most obscure bits of software should be enough for
anybody...

> The other thing we /could/ do is encourage people who've done successful
> Debian installs to help contribute by participating in a torrent after
> the fact -- you could do all sorts of things like have a FUSE filesystem
> that takes a (partial) mirror and a jigdo file and lets you see fake iso
> files, which you then seed via bittorrent, eg. You could automate that,
> so it's just a question like the popcon one: "Do you wish to participate
> as a torrent seed for other people installing Debian? Yes [No]"

Ugh. Do you really want ISPs all over the world to start associating
Debian with evil communist pirate P2P filesharers?

> Hrm. In the real world, does jigdo actually saturate broadband bandwidth?
> It's been a long time since I've tried it, but I vaguely remember it
> not actually being very speedy. Ah, it was the "stop downloading, add
> files to image" that used to slow things down, but seem less of an issue
> now. The repeated wgets probably still aren't great for that matter,
> since it serialises downloading and establishing connections.

It does. I ran Jigdo for i386 DVD 1 some months ago for a person that
requested it from me. We have ftp.mx.debian.org in our university
network, and I have theoretically a 100Mbps link to it (really it's
about 8Mbps, but who am I to complain?). It was a busy night for my
router.

Greetings,

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On Wednesday 19 March 2008, Gunnar Wolf wrote:
> Anthony Towns dijo [Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 03:39:05PM +1000]:
> > (...)
> > and the real question is where you say "if you really want the 23rd CD
> > for mipsel, you're probably smart/dedicated enough to use jigdo".
>
> I completely agree with this. I don't think we must carry every CD for
> every arch forever!
>
> BTW... 30 CDs are too many CDs. Just too ****ing many. We could also
> cut down on them - i.e. produce only the first 8 CDs per arch, and
> have the rest only as DVDs. Yes, many people still do not have DVD
> drives handy, but then again, 8 CDs + network access + a bit of
> patience for the most obscure bits of software should be enough for
> anybody...

that assumes network access, which might be a reasonable assumption in the
West, but that's not true everywhere (e.g. rural parts of India, Cuba, or
most of Africa). In which case ordering a CD-set is way more practical
(these also tend to be the places where they have older second hand pc's
without a DVD-drive)

> > The other thing we /could/ do is encourage people who've done
> > successful Debian installs to help contribute by participating in a
> > torrent after the fact -- you could do all sorts of things like have a
> > FUSE filesystem that takes a (partial) mirror and a jigdo file and lets
> > you see fake iso files, which you then seed via bittorrent, eg. You
> > could automate that, so it's just a question like the popcon one: "Do
> > you wish to participate as a torrent seed for other people installing
> > Debian? Yes [No]"
>
> Ugh. Do you really want ISPs all over the world to start associating
> Debian with evil communist pirate P2P filesharers?

er, you do realise torrent is used for way more then that right?
(for example there's now a scandinavian telivision station that's starting
to distribute shows through bittorrent, we also already have debtorrent)
--
Cheers, cobaco (aka Bart Cornelis)

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cobaco (aka Bart Cornelis) dijo [Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 09:28:03AM +0100]:
> > BTW... 30 CDs are too many CDs. Just too ****ing many. We could also
> > cut down on them - i.e. produce only the first 8 CDs per arch, and
> > have the rest only as DVDs. Yes, many people still do not have DVD
> > drives handy, but then again, 8 CDs + network access + a bit of
> > patience for the most obscure bits of software should be enough for
> > anybody...
>
> that assumes network access, which might be a reasonable assumption in the
> West, but that's not true everywhere (e.g. rural parts of India, Cuba, or
> most of Africa). In which case ordering a CD-set is way more practical
> (these also tend to be the places where they have older second hand pc's
> without a DVD-drive)

Agree - But for every architecture? How many mipsel machines are there
in rural India where no nearby computer has a DVD drive?

> > Ugh. Do you really want ISPs all over the world to start associating
> > Debian with evil communist pirate P2P filesharers?
>
> er, you do realise torrent is used for way more then that right?
> (for example there's now a scandinavian telivision station that's starting
> to distribute shows through bittorrent, we also already have debtorrent)

I do know, and I do think the idea is a darn good one. Several ISPs,
however, only see you are sharing via P2P - and might charge you extra
or disconnect you.

Greetings,

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On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 03:14:51AM -0700, Don Armstrong wrote:
> If someone were to write a general library that did this, it would be
> trivial to wrap a apache handler around it that fed out iso images for
> the less popular architectures too. Does someone who knows more about
> iso9660 and torrents want to write this up for GSoC?

The package jigit mentions iso-image.pl which is an apache cgi handler
for serving an iso from a jigdo file on demand. Unfortunately due to a
bug (which I just reported) the jigit package fails to include it even
though it mentiones it in the package description and it is in the
source package. Looks useful though.

It probably wouldn't be hard to make a torrent extension based on the
example in the perl CGI handler.

--
Len Sorensen


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Gunnar Wolf writes:

> cobaco (aka Bart Cornelis) dijo [Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 09:28:03AM +0100]:
> > er, you do realise torrent is used for way more then that right?
>
> I do know, and I do think the idea is a darn good one. Several ISPs,
> however, only see you are sharing via P2P - and might charge you
> extra or disconnect you.

That is a problem that won't be solved by avoiding use of BitTorrent;
on the contrary, reducing legitimate use of BitTorrent can only result
in supporting those who would paint BitTorrent as a tool without
significant legitimate use.

Rather, we should put pressure on those ISPs that would discriminate
againt BitTorrent traffic. This pressure will be aided by an
*increase* in legitimate use of BitTorrent. Actual, ongoing legitimate
use will have far more weight as a demonstration of the value of
BitTorrent than theoretical discussion in the absence of significant
legitimate use.

--
\ "First they came for the verbs, and I said nothing, for verbing |
`\ weirds language. Then, they arrival for the nouns and I speech |
_o__) nothing, for I no verbs." -- Peter Ellis |
Ben Finney


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Hi,

On Thu, 2008-03-20 at 07:51 +1100, Ben Finney wrote:
> That is a problem that won't be solved by avoiding use of BitTorrent;
> on the contrary, reducing legitimate use of BitTorrent can only result
> in supporting those who would paint BitTorrent as a tool without
> significant legitimate use.

This has nothing to do with "legitimate" or not "legitmate" use; this
has to do with the fact that BitTorrent and swarm-based P2P networks in
general overload many ISPs infrastructure since ISPs like to highly
oversell their networks.

Putting pressure on them will not do any good, and infact, someone who
claims that it has to do with piracy will look like an idiot in 90% of
cases where BitTorrent is blocked.

William

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William, please follow the Debian mailing list code of conduct
; specifically,
don't send me individual messages that are also sent to the list,
since I didn't ask for them.

William Pit**** writes:

> On Thu, 2008-03-20 at 07:51 +1100, Ben Finney wrote:
> > That is a problem that won't be solved by avoiding use of
> > BitTorrent; on the contrary, reducing legitimate use of BitTorrent
> > can only result in supporting those who would paint BitTorrent as
> > a tool without significant legitimate use.
>
> This has nothing to do with "legitimate" or not "legitmate" use;
> this has to do with the fact that BitTorrent and swarm-based P2P
> networks in general overload many ISPs infrastructure since ISPs
> like to highly oversell their networks.

I don't see why you present that as a counterpoint. Such actions by
ISPs are by definition relegating BitTorrent traffic to
"non-legitimate" status, by saying it shouldn't be supported equally.

That problem which can only be solved by proving through actual use
that BitTorrent is a service that users require their ISPs to support
equally along with all other legitimate traffic. Refraining from using
BitTorrent can only bolster the argument that it's not significantly
used enough to support.

> Putting pressure on them will not do any good, and infact, someone
> who claims that it has to do with piracy will look like an idiot in
> 90% of cases where BitTorrent is blocked.

Fortunately, no-one has raised the topic of piracy, and I don't see
the need to do so now.

--
\ "Truth would quickly cease to become stranger than fiction, |
`\ once we got as used to it." -- Henry L. Mencken |
_o__) |
Ben Finney


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On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 12:13:05PM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote:
>On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 03:14:51AM -0700, Don Armstrong wrote:
>> If someone were to write a general library that did this, it would be
>> trivial to wrap a apache handler around it that fed out iso images for
>> the less popular architectures too. Does someone who knows more about
>> iso9660 and torrents want to write this up for GSoC?
>
>The package jigit mentions iso-image.pl which is an apache cgi handler
>for serving an iso from a jigdo file on demand. Unfortunately due to a
>bug (which I just reported) the jigit package fails to include it even
>though it mentiones it in the package description and it is in the
>source package. Looks useful though.

Oops... :-)

>It probably wouldn't be hard to make a torrent extension based on the
>example in the perl CGI handler.

The problem with that version of jigit/mkimage/iso-image.pl is that
jigdo template files are not designed to be easily seekable; i.e. if
you want to read a lump of the ISO image from offset 567,632,024 then
you need to create the ISO from offset 0 to that point. That'll make
it less than ideal for torrent backends as far as I can see.

The work I've done for jigdoofus (FUSE-based filesystem access) and
mkimage v2 adds:

* a simple database to cache the offset -> file lookup data

* (initial) support for just-in-time reading of files from remote
mirrors

but it still needs significant work to boost performance. I've been a
little distracted lately, but I should get back to it...

--
Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK. steve@einval.com
"You can't barbecue lettuce!" -- Ellie Crane


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On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 08:50:11AM +1100, Ben Finney wrote:
> William, please follow the Debian mailing list code of conduct
> ; specifically,
> don't send me individual messages that are also sent to the list,
> since I didn't ask for them.

How many times do people have to cite this stupid thing before someone
removes it from the website?


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[Ignoring the part of M-F-T that indicates Ben Finney, per his request.]

On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 11:31:22AM -0400, Clint Adams wrote:
>On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 08:50:11AM +1100, Ben Finney wrote:
>> William, please follow the Debian mailing list code of conduct
>> ; specifically,
>> don't send me individual messages that are also sent to the list,
>> since I didn't ask for them.
>
>How many times do people have to cite this stupid thing before someone
>removes it from the website?

I think it's a good idea. I'm not a DD, but I don't appreciate getting
dupe messages from the list. procmail is not set up to handle them, and
I read the vast majority of the lists I post to. I only wish non-Debian
lists had the same policy.

Ignoring that particular provision, it contains useful tips such as
only post in English (on non-localized lists), use the proper list, and
don't send HTML email. These are all things I think we should encourage
on Debian lists, and on lists in general.

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On 03/20/08 10:46, brian m. carlson wrote:
> [Ignoring the part of M-F-T that indicates Ben Finney, per his request.]
>
> On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 11:31:22AM -0400, Clint Adams wrote:
>> On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 08:50:11AM +1100, Ben Finney wrote:
>>> William, please follow the Debian mailing list code of conduct
>>> ; specifically,
>>> don't send me individual messages that are also sent to the list,
>>> since I didn't ask for them.
>>
>> How many times do people have to cite this stupid thing before someone
>> removes it from the website?
>
> I think it's a good idea. I'm not a DD, but I don't appreciate getting
> dupe messages from the list. procmail is not set up to handle them, and
> I read the vast majority of the lists I post to. I only wish non-Debian
> lists had the same policy.

Following that rule would be much easier if Tbird and gmail had
Reply To List.

- --
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA USA

Supporting World Peace Through Nuclear Pacification
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On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 11:03:47AM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote:
> On 03/20/08 10:46, brian m. carlson wrote:
> > I think it's a good idea. I'm not a DD, but I don't appreciate getting
> > dupe messages from the list. procmail is not set up to handle them, and
> > I read the vast majority of the lists I post to. I only wish non-Debian
> > lists had the same policy.
>
> Following that rule would be much easier if Tbird and gmail had
> Reply To List.

Don't know for gmail but there is add-on for thunderbird/icedove at:
http://alumnit.ca/wiki/index.php?pag...rbirdExtension


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On 03/20/08 11:18, Milan P. Stanic wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 11:03:47AM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote:
>> On 03/20/08 10:46, brian m. carlson wrote:
>>> I think it's a good idea. I'm not a DD, but I don't appreciate getting
>>> dupe messages from the list. procmail is not set up to handle them, and
>>> I read the vast majority of the lists I post to. I only wish non-Debian
>>> lists had the same policy.
>> Following that rule would be much easier if Tbird and gmail had
>> Reply To List.
>
> Don't know for gmail but there is add-on for thunderbird/icedove at:
> http://alumnit.ca/wiki/index.php?pag...rbirdExtension

In Iceweasel, it stopped working at around v2.0.0.6.

- --
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA USA

Supporting World Peace Through Nuclear Pacification
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Hello Steve,

Am 2008-03-16 23:59:52, schrieb Steve McIntyre:
> 1. Is it worth making full sets of CDs at all? Can we rely on people
> having a net connection or being able to use DVDs if they want
> *everything*?

CD's are maybe not usefull in this size... Maybe only the first 8.

> 2. Is it worth producing all the CDs/DVDs/whatever for all the
> architectures?

DVDs world be very helpful since not all peoples can build DVDs
there own.

> 3. For some arches, should we just provide the first couple of CDs
> and a full set of DVDs? This is a bit of a compromise option - if
> a given machine will not boot from DVD, but can boot from CD and
> get the rest of its packages from a network share then all's good.

V.34 and then Net-Install? Do you have already tried it?

> 4. ??? - what else would be a sane option?

I have seen, that in the last month the ammount of games has increased.
Why not put ALL the Games (last week I have seen a RFS for a Debian data
package of 750 MByte ... UFFFFFFF!!!!)

> Suggestions/comments/complaints - please let us know what you'd
> prefer.

Maybe Debian can provide

1) 50 MB Business card
2) 210MB Net-Install CD (including the base packages)
3) the first 5-8 CDs as they are
4) the 4 standard DVDs where the games are together
on the LAST DVD.

Personal Note: I find it annoying, that I have to download over 1 GByte
(In Lenny they would be over 2 GByte) of Games if I want
only an Office- and Devel-Workstation and some servers
but I have the need for DVDs since I can not have
everywhere an internet connection with 1 MBit or faster.

Thanks, Greetings and nice Day
Michelle Konzack
Systemadministrator
24V Electronic Engineer
Tamay Dogan Network
Debian GNU/Linux Consultant


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On 2008-03-16 23:59:52 (+0000), Steve McIntyre wrote:
> [ Please note Reply-To: to debian-cd... ]
>
> Hi folks,
>
> It's time for me to ask the question again - what CDs and DVDs will we
> find useful enough that we should make them for lenny? The reason I'm
> asking is that we're looking at a *huge* number of discs, and it's not
> clear that they'll all be useful. I've just finished building the full
> set for lenny d-i beta 1 (hence why I've been so quiet the last few
> days), and what we're looking at *now* is quite scary:
>
> 2 small CDs per arch (business card, netinst)
> ~30 CDs per arch for a full CD set
> ~4 DVDs per arch for a full DVD set
> (total 353 CDs, 51 DVDs, 426 GB)
>
> Things are only going to get bigger: we're about to add armel to the
> mix, and I'm expecting that we're going to grow further yet in terms
> of the number and sizes of packages before we release lenny. That
> leaves us with a huge amount of data for us to build and host, and for
> our mirrors to handle too. So...
>
> 1. Is it worth making full sets of CDs at all? Can we rely on people
> having a net connection or being able to use DVDs if they want
> *everything*?
>
> 2. Is it worth producing all the CDs/DVDs/whatever for all the
> architectures?
>
> 3. For some arches, should we just provide the first couple of CDs
> and a full set of DVDs? This is a bit of a compromise option - if
> a given machine will not boot from DVD, but can boot from CD and
> get the rest of its packages from a network share then all's good.
>
> 4. ??? - what else would be a sane option?
>

Considering that modern machines can boot from network or USB stick,
some machine classes lack optical drives (small laptops, many non
ia32/amd64/ppc machines), DVD readers are uncommon outside the
ia32/amd64/ppc world, optical media are slow compared to network or USB
sticks, I would say the importance of optical media images is low. It's
cool to have CDs or DVDs to give away at fairs etc, but for practical
use much better installation methods (network and USB stick) are available IMO.
So in practice this means we can suffice with business card CD images
for ia32/amd64/ppc and CDs (maybe DVDs) with the most important stuff.
For other archs I see no use of having CD or DVD images.

Cheers,

Peter.


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On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 03:46:44PM +0000, brian m. carlson wrote:
> I think it's a good idea. I'm not a DD, but I don't appreciate getting
> dupe messages from the list. procmail is not set up to handle them, and
> I read the vast majority of the lists I post to. I only wish non-Debian
> lists had the same policy.

The larger the volume on a list gets, the more useful duplicate messages
get. That is why lists like LKML require reply-all unless explicitly
requested not to (which seems to be just about never). It also is quite
useful for lists that don't require subscribing to post.

> Ignoring that particular provision, it contains useful tips such as
> only post in English (on non-localized lists), use the proper list, and
> don't send HTML email. These are all things I think we should encourage
> on Debian lists, and on lists in general.

I for one would rather get two copies of a message than none.

--
Len Sorensen


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On Sun, Mar 23, 2008 at 02:16:05AM +0100, Peter 'p2' De Schrijver wrote:
>Considering that modern machines can boot from network or USB stick,
>some machine classes lack optical drives (small laptops, many non
>ia32/amd64/ppc machines), DVD readers are uncommon outside the
>ia32/amd64/ppc world, optical media are slow compared to network or USB
>sticks, I would say the importance of optical media images is low. It's
>cool to have CDs or DVDs to give away at fairs etc, but for practical
>use much better installation methods (network and USB stick) are availableIMO.
AIUI, USB sticks use the standard business card or netinst images, or a
special pre-built image. So creating those for all architectures that
can boot from USB is obviously important, especially for those people
that don't want to destroy all the data on their USB sticks.

--
brian m. carlson / brian with sandals: Houston, Texas, US
+1 713 440 7475 | http://crustytoothpaste.ath.cx/~bmc | My opinion only
troff on top of XML: http://crustytoothpaste.ath.cx/~bmc/code/thwack
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