Bug#452388: "Standard system" is confusing - Debian

This is a discussion on Bug#452388: "Standard system" is confusing - Debian ; Package: tasksel Version: 2.70 Severity: wishlist Tags: patch Policy describes the "standard" priority level as: "These packages provide a reasonably small but not too limited character-mode system. This is what will be installed by default if the user doesn't select ...

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Thread: Bug#452388: "Standard system" is confusing

  1. Bug#452388: "Standard system" is confusing

    Package: tasksel
    Version: 2.70
    Severity: wishlist
    Tags: patch

    Policy describes the "standard" priority level as:

    "These packages provide a reasonably small but not too limited character-mode
    system. This is what will be installed by default if the user doesn't select
    anything else. It doesn't include many large applications."

    which means that in the context of Policy s.2.5, the word "standard" implies
    command-line interface. However, word has it that some of our users (those
    heretics! :-)) haven't studied Policy throughtfuly, and might think that
    "standard" means something like "must-have" [1].

    .... which obviously it isn't when you're setting up a GUI-only system for a
    command-line-impaired user (or even, when the user himself is). In that case
    you'll most likely want to avoid this task completely, specially since it
    contains packages (at, exim4, nfs-common, portmap) that launch system daemons,
    increasing boot time and overall memory usage.

    I would suggest:

    --- tasksel-2.70/tasks/standard~ 2007-10-20 03:32:28.000000000 +0200
    +++ tasksel-2.70/tasks/standard 2007-11-22 15:08:43.000000000 +0100
    @@ -1,6 +1,6 @@
    Task: standard
    Section: user
    -Description: Standard system
    +Description: Command-line environment
    This task installs a reasonably small character-mode system.
    Packages: standard
    Test-new-install: mark skip

    -- System Information:
    Debian Release: lenny/sid
    APT prefers stable
    APT policy: (500, 'stable')
    Architecture: amd64 (x86_64)
    Shell: /bin/sh linked to /bin/bash
    Kernel: Linux 2.6.18-5-amd64
    Locale: LANG=ca_AD.UTF-8, LC_CTYPE=ca_AD.UTF-8 (charmap=UTF-8)



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  2. Bug#452388: "Standard system" is confusing

    > Policy describes the "standard" priority level as:
    >
    > "These packages provide a reasonably small but not too limited character-mode
    > system. This is what will be installed by default if the user doesn't select
    > anything else. It doesn't include many large applications."
    >
    > which means that in the context of Policy s.2.5, the word "standard" implies
    > command-line interface. However, word has it that some of our users (those
    > heretics! :-)) haven't studied Policy throughtfuly, and might think that
    > "standard" means something like "must-have" [1].


    > --- tasksel-2.70/tasks/standard~ 2007-10-20 03:32:28.000000000 +0200
    > +++ tasksel-2.70/tasks/standard 2007-11-22 15:08:43.000000000 +0100
    > @@ -1,6 +1,6 @@
    > Task: standard
    > Section: user
    > -Description: Standard system
    > +Description: Command-line environment


    I agree with Robert; I have been asked quite a few times by friends (while
    installing, what is the difference between standard and desktop system). This
    change would make it a lot clearer what's what.

    --
    Regards,
    EddyP
    =============================================
    "Imagination is more important than knowledge" A.Einstein


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  3. Bug#452388: "Standard system" is confusing

    Quoting Eddy Petri?or (eddy.petrisor@gmail.com):

    > > -Description: Standard system
    > > +Description: Command-line environment

    >
    > I agree with Robert; I have been asked quite a few times by friends (while
    > installing, what is the difference between standard and desktop system). This
    > change would make it a lot clearer what's what.



    I tend to agree. However, that could be "Standard command-line
    environment" or maybe even "Standard command-line-only environment"
    (but I don't like the pile of hyphens).


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  4. Bug#452388: "Standard system" is confusing

    On Sat, Nov 24, 2007 at 06:31:53AM +0000, Christian Perrier wrote:
    > Quoting Eddy Petri?or (eddy.petrisor@gmail.com):
    >
    > > > -Description: Standard system
    > > > +Description: Command-line environment

    > >
    > > I agree with Robert; I have been asked quite a few times by friends (while
    > > installing, what is the difference between standard and desktop system). This
    > > change would make it a lot clearer what's what.

    >
    >
    > I tend to agree. However, that could be "Standard command-line
    > environment" or maybe even "Standard command-line-only environment"
    > (but I don't like the pile of hyphens).


    Keeping "Standard" in the phrase seems fine to me, but I don't think the
    "-only" would add any meaning (If you mean "only" in the context of all
    the tasks, adding one more task makes it false. If you mean "only" in the
    context if this task, then it just means that the task doesn't add anything
    other than what it claims to add, which should be obvious).

    --
    Robert Millan

    I know my rights; I want my phone call!
    What use is a phone call, if you are unable to speak?
    (as seen on /.)



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  5. Bug#452388: "Standard system" is confusing

    Christian Perrier wrote:
    > Quoting Eddy Petri?or (eddy.petrisor@gmail.com):
    >
    >>> -Description: Standard system
    >>> +Description: Command-line environment

    >> I agree with Robert; I have been asked quite a few times by friends (while
    >> installing, what is the difference between standard and desktop system). This
    >> change would make it a lot clearer what's what.

    >
    >
    > I tend to agree. However, that could be "Standard command-line
    > environment" or maybe even "Standard command-line-only environment"
    > (but I don't like the pile of hyphens).


    Yes, "Standard command-line environment" seems saner. OTOH, the
    over-hyphenated-second-proposal seems to add no value and looks like frenglish
    to me ;-) .

    --
    Regards,
    EddyP
    =============================================
    "Imagination is more important than knowledge" A.Einstein


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  6. Bug#452388: "Standard system" is confusing

    Christian Perrier wrote:
    > Quoting Eddy Petri?or (eddy.petrisor@gmail.com):
    >
    >>> -Description: Standard system
    >>> +Description: Command-line environment

    >> I agree with Robert; I have been asked quite a few times by friends (while
    >> installing, what is the difference between standard and desktop system). This
    >> change would make it a lot clearer what's what.

    >
    > I tend to agree. However, that could be "Standard command-line
    > environment" or maybe even "Standard command-line-only environment"
    > (but I don't like the pile of hyphens).


    Some of the packages in the standard seem to not be so "command-line-only"
    oriented. For example, SELinux, openssh-client, NFS client, mime-support,
    ispell, doc-debian, procmail, and so on. These could very well be used in a
    GUI-only environment too.

    --
    Pelle



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  7. Bug#452388: "Standard system" is confusing

    Eddy Petrișor wrote:
    > > -Description: Standard system
    > > +Description: Command-line environment

    >
    > I agree with Robert; I have been asked quite a few times by friends (while
    > installing, what is the difference between standard and desktop system). This
    > change would make it a lot clearer what's what.


    Resulting in people de-selecting standard if they choose desktop. Which
    is not what we want.

    Anyway, the description is not accurate. Standard includes everything
    from documentation about Debian to a MTA to core localisation support,
    to core SE linux support, to a portmapper (for NFS mounts), none of
    which has much to do with the command line.

    --
    see shy jo

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  8. Bug#452388: "Standard system" is confusing

    Quoting Joey Hess (joeyh@debian.org):
    > Eddy Petri?or wrote:
    > > > -Description: Standard system
    > > > +Description: Command-line environment

    > >
    > > I agree with Robert; I have been asked quite a few times by friends (while
    > > installing, what is the difference between standard and desktop system). This
    > > change would make it a lot clearer what's what.

    >
    > Resulting in people de-selecting standard if they choose desktop. Which
    > is not what we want.


    You get a point here.

    >
    > Anyway, the description is not accurate. Standard includes everything
    > from documentation about Debian to a MTA to core localisation support,
    > to core SE linux support, to a portmapper (for NFS mounts), none of
    > which has much to do with the command line.



    Sure, describing this as "command-line" is certainly restirctive but
    we might need to focus on what we want to day:

    - this task should be installed on nearly any system except those that
    are really short on disk space
    - it does not bring a graphical environment

    Anyone seeing something else to add that would describe the standard
    system?



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  9. Bug#452388: "Standard system" is confusing

    On Sat, Nov 24, 2007 at 09:26:12AM -0500, Joey Hess wrote:
    > Eddy Petrișor wrote:
    > > > -Description: Standard system
    > > > +Description: Command-line environment

    > >
    > > I agree with Robert; I have been asked quite a few times by friends (while
    > > installing, what is the difference between standard and desktop system). This
    > > change would make it a lot clearer what's what.

    >
    > Resulting in people de-selecting standard if they choose desktop. Which
    > is not what we want.
    >
    > Anyway, the description is not accurate. Standard includes everything
    > from documentation about Debian to a MTA to core localisation support,
    > to core SE linux support, to a portmapper (for NFS mounts), none of
    > which has much to do with the command line.


    Any suggestions as to which an accurate description would be?

    --
    Robert Millan

    I know my rights; I want my phone call!
    What use is a phone call, if you are unable to speak?
    (as seen on /.)



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  10. Bug#452388: "Standard system" is confusing

    On Sat, Nov 24, 2007 at 09:43:04PM +0000, Christian Perrier wrote:
    >
    > Sure, describing this as "command-line" is certainly restirctive but
    > we might need to focus on what we want to day:
    >
    > - this task should be installed on nearly any system except those that
    > are really short on disk space


    The most significant resource it consumes is not disk space, but boot time
    and overall memory usage.

    --
    Robert Millan

    I know my rights; I want my phone call!
    What use is a phone call, if you are unable to speak?
    (as seen on /.)



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  11. Bug#452388: "Standard system" is confusing

    On Sun, Nov 25, 2007 at 07:16:48AM +0100, Robert Millan wrote:
    > On Sat, Nov 24, 2007 at 09:26:12AM -0500, Joey Hess wrote:
    > > Eddy Petrișor wrote:
    > > > > -Description: Standard system
    > > > > +Description: Command-line environment
    > > >
    > > > I agree with Robert; I have been asked quite a few times by friends (while
    > > > installing, what is the difference between standard and desktop system). This
    > > > change would make it a lot clearer what's what.

    > >
    > > Resulting in people de-selecting standard if they choose desktop. Which
    > > is not what we want.
    > >
    > > Anyway, the description is not accurate. Standard includes everything
    > > from documentation about Debian to a MTA to core localisation support,
    > > to core SE linux support, to a portmapper (for NFS mounts), none of
    > > which has much to do with the command line.

    >
    > Any suggestions as to which an accurate description would be?


    Or, perhaps we could find a way to distinguish cmdline-only packages, and
    make two tasks out of it? Policy requires that they're installed by default,
    but that doesn't mean they must be a single task.

    --
    Robert Millan

    I know my rights; I want my phone call!
    What use is a phone call, if you are unable to speak?
    (as seen on /.)



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  12. Bug#452388: "Standard system" is confusing

    CC'ing Manoj and bringing the topic back to the BTS. Sorry, Manoj, if
    you're subscribed to -boot and don't need the CC... When topics fall
    in a mailing list because the ML is the place where bug reports land,
    one never knos what to do....

    Quoting Manoj Srivastava (srivasta@ieee.org):

    > > Any suggestions as to which an accurate description would be?

    >
    > Description: A minimal, core operating environment
    > "A minimal, core, operating system, nominally installed by
    > default, which can be added upon to provide a more featureful and
    > tailored operating system."


    I like that one, except maybe that it still doesn't really says that
    there will be nothing like a GUI installed. At the beginning of this
    thread, the point was saying that for most users, "a minimal operating
    system" is pretty likely to implicitely mean something with a GUI (
    whether they're wrong or not is not really relevant, indeed).

    Anyway, the problem is *also* that, IIRC, the description of a task
    has to be short enough to fit "on one line".



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  13. Bug#452388: "Standard system" is confusing

    On Sun 25 Nov, Robert Millan wrote:
    >


    > >
    > > Anyway, the description is not accurate. Standard includes everything
    > > from documentation about Debian to a MTA to core localisation support,
    > > to core SE linux support, to a portmapper (for NFS mounts), none of
    > > which has much to do with the command line.

    >
    > Any suggestions as to which an accurate description would be?
    >
    > --
    > Robert Millan
    >

    Standard system without desktop?



    --
    Chris Bell




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  14. Re: Bug#452388: "Standard system" is confusing

    2007/11/25, Manoj Srivastava :
    >
    > Description: A minimal, (currently non-graphical) core operating environment
    > This is the subset of Debian installed by default, which can be added
    > upon to provide a more featureful and tailored operating system.


    Does adding a coma after Debian makes it clearer?

    This is the subset of Debian, installed by default, which can be added
    upon to provide a more featureful and tailored operating system.

    or

    This is the subset of Debian, installed by default, which provides
    basic functionality. Packages can be added later to make it more
    featureful and tailored system.

    Cheers
    Praveen
    --
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  15. Bug#452388: "Standard system" is confusing

    Quoting Manoj Srivastava (srivasta@ieee.org):

    > Description: A minimal, (currently non-graphical) core operating environment
    > This is the subset of Debian installed by default, which can be added
    > upon to provide a more featureful and tailored operating system.



    I like that one, with three minor glitches:

    -leading article, which goes against most of the recommendations for
    synopsis (for instance, in package descritpions)

    - 'currently' which puts an hypothetical moment where that one could
    be graphical, which is speculation. Removing it does not really remove
    information and mat shorten the description enough

    - adding a comma after 'Debian', as pointed by Praveen

    That would lead to:

    Description: Minimal (non-graphical) core operating environment
    This is the subset of Debian, installed by default, which can be added
    upon to provide a more featureful and tailored operating system.




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  16. Bug#452388: "Standard system" is confusing

    On Monday 26 November 2007, Christian Perrier wrote:
    > Description: Minimal (non-graphical) core operating environment
    > This is the subset of Debian, installed by default, which can be added
    > upon to provide a more featureful and tailored operating system.


    Problem is that it is not really "minimal core". You can get quite a bit
    more minimal and core than having standard packages installed.

    I'd prefer to go back to using "standard":
    Description: Standard (non-graphical) basic operating environment

    Should "subset of Debian" maybe be "subset of Debian packages" or "subset of
    the Debian distribution"?

    Not sure if "added upon" is really correct in this context. I'd probably
    use "extended" instead.

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  17. Bug#452388: "Standard system" is confusing

    On Mon, Nov 26, 2007 at 05:39:39AM +0000, Christian Perrier wrote:
    > Quoting Manoj Srivastava (srivasta@ieee.org):


    > > Description: A minimal, (currently non-graphical) core operating environment
    > > This is the subset of Debian installed by default, which can be added
    > > upon to provide a more featureful and tailored operating system.


    > I like that one, with three minor glitches:


    > -leading article, which goes against most of the recommendations for
    > synopsis (for instance, in package descritpions)


    Where are these recommendations and where can I file a bug on them?

    > That would lead to:
    >
    > Description: Minimal (non-graphical) core operating environment


    This is a sentence fragment; why should it have a leading capital letter, is
    that consistent with other task descriptions?

    --
    Steve Langasek Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS
    Debian Developer to set it on, and I can move the world.
    Ubuntu Developer http://www.debian.org/
    slangasek@ubuntu.com vorlon@debian.org



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  18. Bug#452388: "Standard system" is confusing

    On Monday 26 November 2007, Frans Pop wrote:
    > I'd prefer to go back to using "standard":
    > Description: Standard (non-graphical) basic operating environment


    Hmmm. Isn't the short description also what is shown during pkgsel in D-I?

    In that case I don't really feel this change is suitable because:
    - it's too long for a multiselect dialog (52 chars)
    - it does not really fit in with other task descriptions displayed there

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  19. Bug#452388: "Standard system" is confusing

    On 24/11/2007, Per Olofsson wrote:
    > Christian Perrier wrote:
    > > Quoting Eddy Petri?or (eddy.petrisor@gmail.com):
    > >
    > >>> -Description: Standard system
    > >>> +Description: Command-line environment
    > >> I agree with Robert; I have been asked quite a few times by friends (while
    > >> installing, what is the difference between standard and desktop system). This
    > >> change would make it a lot clearer what's what.

    > >
    > > I tend to agree. However, that could be "Standard command-line
    > > environment" or maybe even "Standard command-line-only environment"
    > > (but I don't like the pile of hyphens).

    >
    > Some of the packages in the standard seem to not be so "command-line-only"
    > oriented. For example, SELinux, openssh-client, NFS client, mime-support,
    > ispell, doc-debian, procmail, and so on. These could very well be used in a
    > GUI-only environment too.


    Indeed, but that's what "standard ... environment" includes.

    Is there something terribly with "Standard console-only
    environment"/"Standard console environment"? To me, this does not
    appear to be opposed a "Graphical environment". What do people think?

    --
    Regards,
    EddyP
    =============================================
    "Imagination is more important than knowledge" A.Einstein



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  20. Bug#452388: "Standard system" is confusing

    Quoting Steve Langasek (vorlon@debian.org):

    > > -leading article, which goes against most of the recommendations for
    > > synopsis (for instance, in package descritpions)

    >
    > Where are these recommendations and where can I file a bug on them?



    DevRef 6.2.2

    The point is avoiding to have a huge list at "A(n)" and "The" when
    sorting packages by their short description in a list

    >
    > > That would lead to:
    > >
    > > Description: Minimal (non-graphical) core operating environment

    >
    > This is a sentence fragment; why should it have a leading capital letter,is
    > that consistent with other task descriptions?


    It should not have a leading capital. That's a mistake of mine.



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