[RFC] Support for using multiple CDs during installation - Debian

This is a discussion on [RFC] Support for using multiple CDs during installation - Debian ; (side comment in this thread) Quoting Joey Hess (joeyh@debian.org): > [1] apt's estimate is not currently exposed to the user by apt-setup, > but this should be fixable by using debconf-apt-progress. Whatever choice we make in this thread, that seems ...

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Thread: [RFC] Support for using multiple CDs during installation

  1. Display apt download estimate (was: Re: (summary?) Re: [RFC] Support for using multiple CDs during installation)

    (side comment in this thread)

    Quoting Joey Hess (joeyh@debian.org):

    > [1] apt's estimate is not currently exposed to the user by apt-setup,
    > but this should be fixable by using debconf-apt-progress.


    Whatever choice we make in this thread, that seems to be an
    interesting enhancement, yes.

    --



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  2. Re: [RFC] Support for using multiple CDs during installation

    Quoting Praveen A (pravi.a@gmail.com):
    > 2007/11/1, Joey Hess :
    > > I think that I have a fairly good understanding of the diversity of
    > > internet connections out there, having spanned dialup, cable, dsl, isdn,
    > > t3 or better, the neighborhood coffee shop, third world networks, and
    > > satellite in a non-linear progression over the past 13 years. :-P
    > >

    > Still you did it? Its like I have come through all this, now I have a
    > good net connection, why bother about those third world user who does
    > not even have a good connection, right?


    Praveen, don't bring the discussion on that field. You actually have
    no idea how Joey is respectful for *all* our users.

    You may misunderstand him but I'd like this discussion to remain civil
    and polite.

    Joey is explaining he always found self in the situation of a poorly
    connected user and most of D-I oldtimers know that he spent years
    developing D-I with just a dialup line so, yes, he knows about poor
    conenctivity.



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  3. Re: [RFC] Support for using multiple CDs during installation

    On Thursday 01 November 2007 20:19, Joey Hess wrote:

    > It's unlikely that tasksel is going to want anything beyond what's on
    > those first 2 CDs, so it would be reasonable to just use them for the
    > install and set up a mirror later.


    For the record, there are five packages (Task: ) that could be called by
    tasksel on the fifth CD. The Official r1 i386 disc set.

    Phil.

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  4. Re: [RFC] Support for using multiple CDs during installation

    Op 01-11-2007 om 14:00 schreef Praveen A:
    > 2007/11/1, Joey Hess :
    > >
    > > It's quite difficult to find the more useful CDs, like multiarch discs,
    > > single full CDs, and netinsts, while we're awash in 20 CD sets. This is
    > > broken..

    >
    > and you fixed it by removing the option to use more than one CD itself, great!


    The OLPC, One Laptop Pro Child, has no CD drive, it has wifi.
    The idea is to use a mesh network for software distribution.

    Please think beyond "use CDs to spread software"


    Cheers
    Geert Stappers


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  5. Re: (summary?) Re: [RFC] Support for using multiple CDs during installation

    On Thursday 01 November 2007, Christian Perrier wrote:
    > Quoting Frans Pop (elendil@planet.nl):
    > Frans' proposal adds an extra question when doing CD installs, to
    > prompt users whether they want to use another CD or not. This, even if
    > they did choose a network mirror before.


    Not quite. My proposal asks whether the user wants to use additional CDs
    _before_ the mirror question is asked. In the patches I have prepared, the
    flow would be:

    1) 40cdrom generator
    install CD/DVD is scanned, unless its a businesscard
    2) 41cdset generator
    if install CD/DVD is the first of a set, then ask if user wants to scan
    additional CD/DVDs (default is no)
    after a 2nd CD/DVD has been scanned, ask if user wants to scan another
    CD/DVD (slightly different worded question); repeated until user answers
    "no"
    3) 50mirror generator
    ask if user wants to use a mirror; default and priority of the question
    depends on a number of factors, including installation method
    4) 9x... generators
    ask if user wants to use security/volatile

    Ad 3: choosing to use a mirror or not
    I have not (yet) added the number of CD/DVDs scanned as a factor, but that
    could be done; I'm not sure yet if that really makes sense.

    Ad 4: using security/volatile
    Currently we only ask this at medium/low priority which makes it somewhat
    hard _not_ to use these mirrors. We could decide to raise the priority of
    this question to high if multiple CD/DVDs have been scanned.

    > Joeyh's argument is being reluctant to extra questions and decide that
    > users who did choose a network mirror will, by definition, not want to
    > use extra CDs. He therefore proposes to partly "hide" the decision of
    > scanning extra CD's in the question about network mirror. If users did
    > choose a network mirror, then don't prompt them about extra CDs.


    Correct. So the flow would become:

    1) 50cdrom generator
    install CD/DVD is scanned, unless its a businesscard
    2) 50mirror generator
    ask if user wants to use a mirror; default and priority of the question
    depends on a number of factors, including installation method
    3) 51cdset generator
    Only if the user has selected _not_ to use a mirror and if install CD/DVD
    is the first of a set, then ask if user wants to scan additional CD/DVDs
    after a 2nd CD/DVD has been scanned, ask if user wants to scan another
    CD/DVD (slightly different worded question); repeated until user answers
    "no"
    4) 9x... generators
    ask if user wants to use security/volatile

    > [...], I tend to favourize (en?) Frans approach, here.


    favour :-)

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  6. Re: (summary?) Re: [RFC] Support for using multiple CDs during installation

    On Thursday 01 November 2007, Joey Hess wrote:
    > It asks for all the CDs first, there's no path through the install that
    > asks about a network mirror first (if anna uses a network mirror, this
    > isn't a full CD and so it doesn't ask for other full CDs, AIUI).


    I don't understand the comment about anna.

    If anna uses a network mirror, you're doing either a netboot or
    floppy/netdrivers install and there is no CD, i.e. /cdrom/.disk/ does not
    exist.
    Even better, apt-cdrom-setup should normally not even be installed in that
    case, so the 41cdset generator won't even be available.

    The actual check the 41cdset generator does is:
    - does a file /cdrom/.disk/cd_type exist
    - is it content equal to either "full_cd" or "dvd"
    (for netinst/businesscard it is "incomplete")

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  7. Re: (summary?) Re: [RFC] Support for using multiple CDs during installation

    Christian Perrier writes:

    > So, with all respect I have for the reluctance to add extra questions
    > to defaults installs (imho, Joeyh's strong stance on this...as well as
    > Frans' one when he acted as RM, has always kept D-I as "clean" as
    > possible), I tend to favourize (en?) Frans approach, here.


    I agree with Frans too. Many users do not read manual before install
    the system and hide it behind the network mirror will make it
    difficult for most users even know that it's available.

    --
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    ---------------------------------------------
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    GNU/Linux User: 239058 GPG ID: 49A5F855
    Home Page: http://otavio.ossystems.com.br
    ---------------------------------------------
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    you the whole house."


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  8. Re: (summary?) Re: [RFC] Support for using multiple CDs during installation

    On Thursday 01 November 2007, Joey Hess wrote:
    > If you're not on broadband and you choose to use a mirror, it takes
    > half an hour or more just to download the Packages file. Apt can
    > estimate this reaonably well so you shouldn't even need to wait, you can
    > just see in the progress bar estimate that the network is slow[1]
    > This is a good indication that you made the wrong choice -- installing
    > any significant tasks will take much longer -- and all that's really
    > needed then is a Cancel button so you can move on to using a CD instead.


    OK. This is starting to make sense.

    Say we extend apt-mirror-setup so that it can tell how fast the connection
    is (which is probably going to require some serious hacking).
    We could then do the following.

    A) If CD-based install and base-installable
    => ask user if he wants to use a mirror
    - if Yes
    - select mirror
    - get packages file (with cancel option!?); determine speed
    - if speed ~= "fast broadband" or "local network"
    * use mirror, proceed to pkgsel
    - if speed ~= "slow broadband" and CD/DVD is first in set
    * offer to scan additional CD/DVDs (possibly not in case of DVD)
    - if speed ~< "broadband"
    * offer to select different mirror (go back to 'select mirror')
    * advice against using the mirror during installation
    (add commented out in sources.list?)
    * if CD/DVD is first in set => offer to scan additional CD/DVDs
    - if No
    * if CD/DVD is first in set => offer to scan additional CD/DVDs

    B) If not a CD-based install or not base-installable and speed ~< broadband,
    we could warn against selecting large tasks.

    I would happily support a scheme like that.


    Why don't we do the following?
    As both Otavio, Christian and others seem to mostly agree with me, I commit
    and upload the changes as I have them now. I really don't think the current
    implementation can be seen as a "regression" in support for what Joey
    considers the "normal" case and it adds a feature that is obviously wanted.

    We can then get some experience and feedback with Beta1.
    If anybody wants to implement something like described above, or propose a
    different alternative, it can be discussed on the list. After all, we still
    have almost a year to Lenny to improve the "user experience".

    Cheers,
    FJP

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  9. Re: [RFC] Support for using multiple CDs during installation

    Praveen A wrote:
    > I think even now if you select a mirror and installing from CD it
    > downloads even those packages in the CD, correct me if I am wrong
    > here.


    Incorrect.

    (As is much of the rest of your mail. Please lose the chip on your
    shoulder if you'd like to influence me *at *all*.)

    --
    see shy jo

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  10. Re: [RFC] Support for using multiple CDs during installation

    On Thursday 01 November 2007, Joey Hess wrote:
    > Praveen A wrote:
    > > I think even now if you select a mirror and installing from CD it
    > > downloads even those packages in the CD, correct me if I am wrong
    > > here.

    >
    > Incorrect.


    Hmmm?
    The original statement is a bit unclear, but at least the following is true.

    If you have both CDs and a mirror in your sources list and a package is
    available from both and the version of the package on both is the same,
    apt(itude) will always take the package from the CD.
    If the versions are different, apt(itude) will always take the highest
    version; in most cases this will be the mirror - with the important
    exception of CDDs that have customized versions of packages on the CDs.

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  11. Using multiple CDs during installation - available for testing

    On Thursday 25 October 2007, Frans Pop wrote:
    > Attached patches to apt-setup and pkgsel make it possible to scan
    > multiple CD/DVDs from a set during apt-setup and use them during pkgsel.


    I have created a set of 3 "mini full CD" images (size is "only" 300MB each)
    that includes the multi-CD support. If you can, why not give them a try!

    Using only the first 2 should give you an experience roughly like installing
    from a normal CD1, but with CD changing. The use of CD3 is optional.
    Of course, both normal and graphical installs are supported.

    The images can be downloaded from [1]:
    http://people.debian.org/~fjp/tmp/multi-cd/

    Cheers,
    FJP

    [1] The upload is still going and will take several hours to complete, so
    please check the sizes _before_ you start the download. All three images
    are just under 300MB.

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  12. Re: [RFC] Support for using multiple CDs during installation

    Frans Pop wrote:
    > If you have both CDs and a mirror in your sources list and a package is
    > available from both and the version of the package on both is the same,
    > apt(itude) will always take the package from the CD.


    Yes, he wasn't saying this, but the opposite, AIUI.

    --
    see shy jo

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  13. Re: (summary?) Re: [RFC] Support for using multiple CDs during installation

    Frans Pop wrote:
    > On Thursday 01 November 2007, Joey Hess wrote:
    > > If you're not on broadband and you choose to use a mirror, it takes
    > > half an hour or more just to download the Packages file. Apt can
    > > estimate this reaonably well so you shouldn't even need to wait, you can
    > > just see in the progress bar estimate that the network is slow[1]
    > > This is a good indication that you made the wrong choice -- installing
    > > any significant tasks will take much longer -- and all that's really
    > > needed then is a Cancel button so you can move on to using a CD instead.


    Note that I realized after I wrote it that this might not be true for
    some satellite connections, where the Packages files tend to get cached
    on the satellite itself (which is pretty cool when it happens BTW ;-),
    and download fairly quickly but then tend to get you FAPped for the
    apt-setup portion of the dowload.

    > OK. This is starting to make sense.
    >
    > Say we extend apt-mirror-setup so that it can tell how fast the connection
    > is (which is probably going to require some serious hacking).
    > We could then do the following.


    Try this:

    debconf-apt-progress aptitude update

    You can't use apt-get because it doesn't output the timing info to the
    status-fd, but happily aptitude works. And for results that best mimic
    d-i, you should add a new mirror to sources.list first so it has
    something to download.

    > A) If CD-based install and base-installable
    > => ask user if he wants to use a mirror
    > - if Yes
    > - select mirror
    > - get packages file (with cancel option!?); determine speed
    > - if speed ~= "fast broadband" or "local network"
    > * use mirror, proceed to pkgsel
    > - if speed ~= "slow broadband" and CD/DVD is first in set
    > * offer to scan additional CD/DVDs (possibly not in case of DVD)
    > - if speed ~< "broadband"
    > * offer to select different mirror (go back to 'select mirror')
    > * advice against using the mirror during installation
    > (add commented out in sources.list?)
    > * if CD/DVD is first in set => offer to scan additional CD/DVDs
    > - if No
    > * if CD/DVD is first in set => offer to scan additional CD/DVDs


    This has problems with connections like satellite that have a FAP
    policy, since the connection is nice and fast until it downloads too
    much and becomes slower than dialup. More importantly, getting good
    definitions for these terms and especially dealing with networks that
    are close to the cutoff point between them feels difficult and likely to
    produce inconsistent or unexpected behavior.

    So my suggestion is actually that we give full control to the user by
    displaying apt's progress info and letting them cancel any of these big
    network downloads. I'd also suggest making the mirror setup mention that
    if a download seems to slow, the user can hit "Cancel". If
    apt-mirror-setup is canceled, then return to the "use a mirror question"
    and let them change mirrors or not use a mirror (and go on to scanning
    CDs). Or alternatively, return to the main menu and let apt-setup be run
    again. If pkgsel's aptitude download is canceled, return to the main menu
    so the user can, if necessary, re-run apt-setup.

    I don't feel this will be too hard to implement, but obviously there's
    no point on blocking your changes on it.

    --
    see shy jo

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  14. Re: [RFC] Support for using multiple CDs during installation

    Hi,

    On Thursday 01 November 2007 08:03, Geert Stappers wrote:
    > I miss the link between Debian-Edu, famous for it's single CD install
    > and getting an extra question in the installer for scanning more CDs.
    > (which implies leaving the single install CD philosophy for Debian-Edu)


    We've already done that for our etch release, released in July. There, we only
    support installation from network with a DVD, the CD installs need network.
    The size of the needed packages has just risen too much.

    In future this will become worse, as Debian Edu will then be available in two
    flavors, Gnome and KDE...


    regards,
    Holger

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  15. Re: (summary?) Re: [RFC] Support for using multiple CDs during installation

    Joey Hess writes:

    > Try this:
    >
    > debconf-apt-progress aptitude update
    >
    > You can't use apt-get because it doesn't output the timing info to the
    > status-fd, but happily aptitude works. And for results that best mimic
    > d-i, you should add a new mirror to sources.list first so it has
    > something to download.


    If this support is required for APT, I can work on it.

    --
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    ---------------------------------------------
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    GNU/Linux User: 239058 GPG ID: 49A5F855
    Home Page: http://otavio.ossystems.com.br
    ---------------------------------------------
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    you the whole house."


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  16. Re: (summary?) Re: [RFC] Support for using multiple CDs during installation

    Joey Hess wrote:
    > I don't feel this will be too hard to implement, but obviously there's
    > no point on blocking your changes on it.


    With the debconf-apt-progress from debconf 1.5.17, if the progresscancel
    capb is set in d-i, hitting cancel on the progress bar will send first a
    SIGINT, and if repeated, a SIGKILL, to whatever program
    debconf-apt-progress has run. Which is good enough to cancel aptitude
    update and aptitude --download-only install.

    I haven't tested this inside d-i yet, and the lack of cancelable
    progress bars in debconf frontends has also prevented me from fully
    testing it, but I think it will work.

    --
    see shy jo

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  17. Bug#448908: (summary?) Re: [RFC] Support for using multiple CDs during installation

    Otavio Salvador wrote:
    > Joey Hess writes:
    >
    > > Try this:
    > >
    > > debconf-apt-progress aptitude update
    > >
    > > You can't use apt-get because it doesn't output the timing info to the
    > > status-fd, but happily aptitude works. And for results that best mimic
    > > d-i, you should add a new mirror to sources.list first so it has
    > > something to download.

    >
    > If this support is required for APT, I can work on it.


    Either bug #448908 or bug #448958 needs to be fixed before apt-setup can
    display really nice detailed progress bars. My preference would be
    fixing apt..

    --
    see shy jo

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  18. Re: (summary?) Re: [RFC] Support for using multiple CDs during installation

    Here'a an attempt at cancelable progress bars for apt-setup. If apt's
    bug gets fixed the progress bar will also include download speed
    and time estimates.

    The behavior when cancel is pressed could be improved, it currently
    behaves the same as if the apt source failed to validate, which
    typically loops back and lets the user try it again.

    I ran out of time to do any testing.

    --
    see shy jo

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  19. apt-setup cansel support (was: [RFC] Support for using multiple CDs during installation)

    On Friday 02 November 2007, Joey Hess wrote:
    > Here'a an attempt at cancelable progress bars for apt-setup. If apt's
    > bug gets fixed the progress bar will also include download speed
    > and time estimates.
    >
    > The behavior when cancel is pressed could be improved, it currently
    > behaves the same as if the apt source failed to validate, which
    > typically loops back and lets the user try it again.
    >
    > I ran out of time to do any testing.


    > Index: generators/50mirror
    > ================================================== =================
    > - if apt-setup-verify $file; then
    > + if apt-setup-verify $file -- --from $PROGRESS_FROM --to $PROGRESS_TO;


    > Index: generators/91security
    > ================================================== =================
    > - if ! apt-setup-verify $file; then
    > + if ! apt-setup-verify $file --from $PROGRESS_FROM --to $PROGRESS_TO;


    > Index: generators/92volatile
    > ================================================== =================
    > - if ! apt-setup-verify $file; then
    > + if ! apt-setup-verify $file --from $PROGRESS_FROM --to $PROGRESS_TO;


    Why does the first have "--" and the other two not?

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  20. Re: apt-setup cansel support (was: [RFC] Support for using multiple CDs during installation)

    Frans Pop wrote:
    > On Friday 02 November 2007, Joey Hess wrote:
    > > Here'a an attempt at cancelable progress bars for apt-setup. If apt's
    > > bug gets fixed the progress bar will also include download speed
    > > and time estimates.
    > >
    > > The behavior when cancel is pressed could be improved, it currently
    > > behaves the same as if the apt source failed to validate, which
    > > typically loops back and lets the user try it again.
    > >
    > > I ran out of time to do any testing.

    >
    > > Index: generators/50mirror
    > > ================================================== =================
    > > - if apt-setup-verify $file; then
    > > + if apt-setup-verify $file -- --from $PROGRESS_FROM --to $PROGRESS_TO;

    >
    > > Index: generators/91security
    > > ================================================== =================
    > > - if ! apt-setup-verify $file; then
    > > + if ! apt-setup-verify $file --from $PROGRESS_FROM --to $PROGRESS_TO;

    >
    > > Index: generators/92volatile
    > > ================================================== =================
    > > - if ! apt-setup-verify $file; then
    > > + if ! apt-setup-verify $file --from $PROGRESS_FROM --to $PROGRESS_TO;

    >
    > Why does the first have "--" and the other two not?


    Because I forgot it in the other two.

    --
    see shy jo

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