[RFC] Support for using multiple CDs during installation - Debian

This is a discussion on [RFC] Support for using multiple CDs during installation - Debian ; On Friday 26 October 2007, Joey Hess wrote: > Frans Pop wrote: > > My thought was that the user should first be allowed to load additional > > CD/DVDs or not and based on that we _could_ change the ...

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Thread: [RFC] Support for using multiple CDs during installation

  1. Re: [RFC] Support for using multiple CDs during installation

    On Friday 26 October 2007, Joey Hess wrote:
    > Frans Pop wrote:
    > > My thought was that the user should first be allowed to load additional
    > > CD/DVDs or not and based on that we _could_ change the
    > > defaults/priority for using a mirror.
    > >
    > > OTOH, as you've argued yourself in the past, having additional CDs
    > > available does not guarantee that all packages you want for (l10n)
    > > tasks are available. They could still be on a CD in the set _after_ the
    > > last one you scanned, so having a mirror could still be useful.

    >
    > Yes, and also, using a mirror is the more common case than wanting to
    > load a whole CD set. So I'd suggest turning that around and asking for a
    > mirror, and if none was used, raising the priority of the CD question.


    I beg to disagree.

    As argued above, loading multiple CDs in no way conflicts with using a
    mirror. IMO we have to always ask both questions.

    Also, first letting the user scan all CDs and then asking about adding a
    mirror is a lot more logical than the other way around:
    a) it seems not very natural to first scan the installation CD, then do
    other stuff, and then go back to scanning CDs
    b) it is much more natural to have a user consider:
    - "OK, I've now scanned this huge pile of CDs; do I still want to use a
    mirror in addition to that or not?"
    than:
    - "hey, they're asking me if I want to use a mirror; do I need one? I
    probably do as apparently I cannot use this ****load of CDs they let
    me download and burn..."

    Properly explaining that they _can_ use the CDs, but we'll ask them later
    and only if they choose not to use a mirror, seems like totally the wrong
    way to go about it.

    Also note that the question to load additional CDs will _not_ be asked for
    netinst and business card CDs.
    And we can probably work out something with Sledge so that we also don't ask
    it (except maybe at medium prio) for KDE/Xfce/multi-arch CDs as after all
    those are not part of a set.

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  2. Re: [RFC] Support for using multiple CDs during installation

    Frans Pop writes:

    > As argued above, loading multiple CDs in no way conflicts with using a
    > mirror. IMO we have to always ask both questions.


    Ack.

    > Also, first letting the user scan all CDs and then asking about adding a
    > mirror is a lot more logical than the other way around:


    Ack too. It looks more user friendly.

    <...>
    > And we can probably work out something with Sledge so that we also don't ask
    > it (except maybe at medium prio) for KDE/Xfce/multi-arch CDs as after all
    > those are not part of a set.


    That shouldn't be too hard since we can add some kind of
    identification on .disk/type or like.

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  3. Re: [RFC] Support for using multiple CDs during installation

    Op 25-10-2007 om 15:52 schreef Frans Pop:
    > Attached patches to apt-setup and pkgsel make it possible to scan multiple
    > CD/DVDs from a set during apt-setup and use them during pkgsel.
    >
    > The patches have been tested and work. I've done several successful desktop
    > installations using CD1 plus CD2.
    > However, the patches are still a bit rough and there are some issues that
    > need discussion.
    >
    > The main issue with the current patches is the new dialogs. Comments on them
    > and suggestions for improvement are welcome.
    >
    > If those are fixed, the patches could be considered for inclusion even
    > though there are some remaining issues (see below). I'm unsure myself
    > whether any of these issues is serious enough to prevent inclusion.
    >
    > Changes by the patch
    > --------------------
    > Scanning for extra CDs is only supported:
    > - if the installation CD is a full CD or DVD
    > - if the installation method is not hd-media
    >
    > The apt-setup generator 50cdrom has been moved to 40cdrom; a new generator
    > 41cdset was added to allow scanning of additional CDs. The generator for
    > mirror sources run after that.
    >
    > When base-config was integrated into D-I, we had find a way to make tasksel
    > install from CD images for hd-media installations. This was solved by bind
    > mounting the CD into target and telling apt-cdrom not to mount/unmount CDs.
    > In the patch for apt-setup this is reverted: apt-cdrom is allowed to mount
    > CDs again. Note that base-installation is not changed in any way.
    >
    > For CD changing by apt-cdrom in /target to be possible, the installation CD
    > has to be unmounted in the D-I environment. While it is unmounted, no udeb
    > installations are possible.
    > Both in apt-setup (after scanning additional CDs) and in pkgsel (after
    > tasksel) the installation CD is mounted again so other installation steps
    > do not break.
    >
    > Remaining issues
    > ----------------
    > After the change to the 2nd CD in pkgsel, the progress bar starts at 0 again
    > instead of continuing from its old position.
    >
    > The prompt for CD changing works during pkgsel, but apparently not for a
    > normal apt-install. During initial tests, installation of grub failed
    > because CD2 was still mounted and I never got the prompt to change CDs.
    > This is worked around by making sure CD1 is installed again, but if any
    > packages from other CDs are needed for whatever reason _after_ pkgsel, the
    > installation will hang for the same reason.
    > I've not really looked yet at why this does not work.
    >
    > The mechanism to mount the CD again for the D-I environment is somewhat
    > fragile, for two reasons:
    > - installation of extra udebs is now not possible during pkgsel; this is
    > not a serious limitation as in practice this is probably not needed
    > - if a CD change is needed to install a package _after_ pkgsel, this will
    > fail because the CD is mounted in the D-I environment (the CD drive is
    > locked)
    > It would be much better if anna or udpkg could detect that the CD is not
    > mounted and ask for it to be mounted when needed and then automatically
    > unmount it again after use so not to interfere with CD changing in /target.
    >
    > During my tests, the first mount of a CD after changing it would
    > consistently fail. This is probably a bug in VirtualBox.
    > I've added a workaround for this to make working on this a bit easier, but
    > that should probably be removed.
    >
    > Cheers,
    > FJP



    I miss the "why". Right now I have the unplesant feeling it is "apt-cdrom
    add" re-invented. Someone willing to enlighten me?


    Cheers
    Geert Stappers


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  4. Re: [RFC] Support for using multiple CDs during installation

    Frans Pop wrote:
    > I beg to disagree.
    >
    > As argued above, loading multiple CDs in no way conflicts with using a
    > mirror. IMO we have to always ask both questions.


    Neither does installing lilo to one disk and grub to another, but d-i
    does not prompt the user to choose if they want to use lilo, and follow
    that up with a separate prompt about whether to use grub. Instead d-i
    allows the -0.00001% of users who need to do this to use the menu in
    expert mode.

    > Also, first letting the user scan all CDs and then asking about adding a
    > mirror is a lot more logical than the other way around:
    > a) it seems not very natural to first scan the installation CD, then do
    > other stuff, and then go back to scanning CDs


    Scanning the first CD doesn't involve the user doing something, so most
    users will not particularly notice it's happened.

    > b) it is much more natural to have a user consider:
    > - "OK, I've now scanned this huge pile of CDs; do I still want to use a
    > mirror in addition to that or not?"


    No, it's much more natural to optimise for the common case, which is
    using a mirror. Users should not be encouraged to scan huge piles of CDs.
    Huge piles of CDs are obsolete in all but a very few edge cases.
    Prompting for additional CDs will make the user feel that he should
    provide them, which is typically a waste of his time and leads to a
    system that is less functional (because apt asks you to switch CDs all
    the time). Or more likely, it will make the user worry that he doesn't
    have more than one CD.

    > than:
    > - "hey, they're asking me if I want to use a mirror; do I need one? I
    > probably do as apparently I cannot use this ****load of CDs they let
    > me download and burn..."


    When a user downloads a bunch of CDs they don't neeed, as in your
    example, we've already failed once, let's not fail twice.


    In general, you seem to be assuming that using multiple CDs is something
    other than an exceptional edge case. It is not. That's why I happily
    dropped it from the etch installer, and why only a few users have missed
    it. If you want to fill in that edge case in the installer, that's fine
    (and impressive), but it's not good to complicate the installation
    process for the common case when doing so.

    --
    see shy jo

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  5. Re: [RFC] Support for using multiple CDs during installation

    Geert Stappers wrote:
    > I miss the "why". Right now I have the unplesant feeling it is "apt-cdrom
    > add" re-invented. Someone willing to enlighten me?


    The sole use-case for multiple CDs in d-i is a scenario where the user
    is not connected to (or chooses not to use) a fast network and is going
    to select some tasks that are not completly contained on the first CD
    (or possibly on the first DVD, though that is less likely). If the user
    installs using only the first disc, installing the desktop task will
    install a usable desktop that doesn't have all the trimmings of
    less-used applications. If the user uses a less common language, their
    language task may not be installed at all, or only the key parts of the
    task may be installed, leading to a less than ideal localised experience.

    It's good to be able to load multiple CDs in d-i in this case. In every
    other case, there's no benefit to loading multiple CDs.

    --
    see shy jo

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  6. Re: [RFC] Support for using multiple CDs during installation

    Joey Hess writes:

    >> Also, first letting the user scan all CDs and then asking about adding a
    >> mirror is a lot more logical than the other way around:
    >> a) it seems not very natural to first scan the installation CD, then do
    >> other stuff, and then go back to scanning CDs

    >
    > Scanning the first CD doesn't involve the user doing something, so most
    > users will not particularly notice it's happened.


    So you prefer to ask for other CDs just if mirror is not being use?

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  7. Re: [RFC] Support for using multiple CDs during installation

    Your mail seriously put me off for a few days, so I've given myself some
    extra time to think about it.

    On Friday 26 October 2007, Joey Hess wrote:
    > > As argued above, loading multiple CDs in no way conflicts with using a
    > > mirror. IMO we have to always ask both questions.

    >
    > Neither does installing lilo to one disk and grub to another, but d-i
    > does not prompt the user to choose if they want to use lilo, and follow
    > that up with a separate prompt about whether to use grub. Instead d-i
    > allows the -0.00001% of users who need to do this to use the menu in
    > expert mode.


    OK, but in your proposal the option to scan additional CDs is _not asked at
    all_ if they choose to use a mirror. A significant difference I'd say.

    I also still feel that having to say "no" to a mirror is in any way logical
    if you want to use additional CDs, so we'd have to add some sort of ugly
    (conditional!) explanation in the use mirror dialog about that.

    > > Also, first letting the user scan all CDs and then asking about adding
    > > a mirror is a lot more logical than the other way around:
    > > a) it seems not very natural to first scan the installation CD, then do
    > > other stuff, and then go back to scanning CDs

    >
    > Scanning the first CD doesn't involve the user doing something, so most
    > users will not particularly notice it's happened.


    It still is visible for users who pay attention and it is also visible
    because of the way the mirror question is phrased.

    > > b) it is much more natural to have a user consider:
    > > - "OK, I've now scanned this huge pile of CDs; do I still want to use a
    > > mirror in addition to that or not?"

    >
    > No, it's much more natural to optimise for the common case, which is
    > using a mirror.


    I don't think adding a single question that is only asked when it is
    relevant and has a default of "no" is a loss of optimization.
    I also think that a lot more users would like to be able to scan additional
    CDs than you think. Not everybody in the world has broadband.

    > Users should not be encouraged to scan huge piles of CDs.
    > Huge piles of CDs are obsolete in all but a very few edge cases.


    I know your aversion against the full CD sets. I remember your blog about
    it. But I don't think scanning additional CDs if you already have them is
    in any way harmful.

    I also don't think my changes "encourage them" as:
    - the question is only asked when there is a real possibility the user
    may have additional CDs available
    - the default of the question is "no" which is an indication that you
    don't absolutely need additional CDs; the question also includes the
    qualification "if available"

    I also very much doubt users who are at this stage of the installation and
    don't have multiple CDs will suddenly decide to break off the install and
    rush off to download/buy the full set and start the install over.

    I agree that downloading/buying/scanning a full set of CDs is silly in
    almost all cases. However, if you want to do something about that it should
    be done where users decide to *buy or download* the images: on the website
    and in documentation.
    What your proposal here does is punishing users who already have multiple
    CDs (and hopefully a lot will probably only have a limited number instead
    of the full set anyway) by hiding the question behind an unrelated other
    question and thus effectively not making the option available at all.

    > Prompting for additional CDs will make the user feel that he should
    > provide them, which is typically a waste of his time and leads to a
    > system that is less functional (because apt asks you to switch CDs all
    > the time). Or more likely, it will make the user worry that he doesn't
    > have more than one CD.


    Nonsense. I'm perfectly willing to clarify this in the dialog (or maybe
    better in an additional dialog after the user has chosen yes), but I
    completely disagree with this. See above.

    > > than:
    > > - "hey, they're asking me if I want to use a mirror; do I need one? I
    > > probably do as apparently I cannot use this ****load of CDs they let
    > > me download and burn..."

    >
    > When a user downloads a bunch of CDs they don't neeed, as in your
    > example, we've already failed once, let's not fail twice.


    Let's not punish them either if they've already done so...

    > In general, you seem to be assuming that using multiple CDs is something
    > other than an exceptional edge case. It is not. That's why I happily
    > dropped it from the etch installer, and why only a few users have missed
    > it.


    On the other hand, we've listed the lack of support as a "known issue" and
    we've had it high on our TODO list. A fair number of installation reports
    has mentioned it as something that was missing.

    And, as said before, I think it is wanted a lot more than you think. Not for
    full sets, but I think for a lot of users downloading the first 2-4 CDs can
    be a very sensible option. Consider for example the PowerPC case where CD1
    hardly contains anything beyond the base system.
    And I've argued in my earlier mail that there is no reason why such users
    should not be allowed to use a mirror in combination with those CDs.

    > If you want to fill in that edge case in the installer, that's fine
    > (and impressive), but it's not good to complicate the installation
    > process for the common case when doing so.


    Adding a single, focussed question with a default of "no" is not
    "complicating the common case".

    I'm still convinced that my implementation is the cleanest one possible. It
    is focussed, has conservative defaults and it respects the relative
    independence of the generators.
    I'm willing to discuss changes, but hiding the option to use CD sets behind
    the use mirror question is not an option for me.

    Cheers,
    FJP

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  8. Re: [RFC] Support for using multiple CDs during installation

    On Wednesday 31 October 2007, Frans Pop wrote:
    > > Neither does installing lilo to one disk and grub to another, but d-i
    > > does not prompt the user to choose if they want to use lilo, and follow
    > > that up with a separate prompt about whether to use grub. Instead d-i
    > > allows the -0.00001% of users who need to do this to use the menu in
    > > expert mode.

    >
    > OK, but in your proposal the option to scan additional CDs is _not asked
    > at all_ if they choose to use a mirror. A significant difference I'd say.


    That's not quite right as lilo is also not asked by default. The difference
    is in the fact that you think using CD sets is a corner case, while I
    don't. Another difference is that the option to use lilo could be
    considered to be an option for expert users (those who (think they) know
    the difference between the two and prefer lilo), while using CD sets is
    something that newbie users are more likely to do and is thus something
    that _should_ be offered during a normal install.

    I remember well that I started using debian (not sure if I had 14k4 or 28k8
    modem or already 56k ISDN at the time) using downloaded boot floppies. I
    got stuck. Some time later decided to try again and bought a Potato CD set
    (all three of them and unofficial extra's). For Woody I downloaded CD 1-3;
    pretty sure I was on ISDN by then.

    I also remember discussing the with Pema in Bhutan. He told me that his main
    distribution method was going to be multiple CDs (he was regularly pushing
    me about making sure that my CD build scripts would support that) and was
    looking forward to having this option available.

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  9. Re: [RFC] Support for using multiple CDs during installation

    On Wednesday 31 October 2007, Praveen A wrote:
    > [...], when Ubuntu gives everything a normal user wants in one CD.


    That's not quite true. AFAIK Ubuntu only distributes _DVDs_ and I'm fairly
    sure that if you take a Debian DVD you will find most of what you would
    want on the first DVD as well.

    Thanks for your contribution to the discussion though.

    Cheers,
    FJP

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  10. Re: [RFC] Support for using multiple CDs during installation

    Hi,

    On Wednesday 31 October 2007 19:23, Frans Pop wrote:
    > And, as said before, I think it is wanted a lot more than you think. Not
    > for full sets, but I think for a lot of users downloading the first 2-4 CDs
    > can be a very sensible option.


    Debian Edu pretty much wants that, to be able to distribute a CD set "which
    can be installed fully without a network". Not every schools has dvd drives
    (at all or in all machines).


    regards,
    Holger

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  11. Re: [RFC] Support for using multiple CDs during installation

    Op 31-10-2007 om 22:23 schreef Frans Pop:
    > It's logical from the installer's pov, but not from a _user's_ pov.
    > How the hell is he supposed to guess that he will be asked about additional
    > CDs later when confronted with a question about a network mirror?
    >
    > If I (as a newbie) were confronted by that question I would think "OK, so
    > that's it: I either use the mirror or have to do with what's included on
    > this one CD; let's choose the mirror to be safe".
    > With my proposal the user will _know_ at the time of the mirror question how
    > many CDs/DVDs he already has available which makes answering "No" to the
    > mirror question a lot less scary.


    I was a newbie too. ( Yes, I know, we where all newbies once. )

    In the Commodore 64 days, I had the game "Fort Apocalypse".
    With the joystick you controlled a helicopter. In the landscape there
    where soldiers to rescue and there was the computer controlled air
    defence system shooting at you.
    After a lot of pratice I was able to rescue all soldiers and to destroy
    the air defence before it did destroy me. I felt great and the stupid
    computer should have reward me
    with a great blinking "GAME OVER", but didn't. (yes, a newbie expirence)
    After spendig even more time on the game, I find out (or was told) that
    that the floor under the air defence house can also be shoot and the
    hole in the floor (or ground) was an entrance to cave.
    Decending in the cave with the helicopter did change the scenery color,
    I was in the next level of the game ...
    Again air defence shooting at me and also soldiers to rescue for extra
    points. Also shooting on the floor and the wall for finding further
    "levels" of the game.
    And finally deep in the cave there was the Fort Apocalypse.
    After destroy that fortress there was a very big "GAME OVER"
    (or was it a "Mission completed!" ? ) with various visual effects.
    The great victory of not being a newbie (for F.A.) anymore.

    In other words:

    A newbie can learn.



    Back to the Debian-Installer:

    Please design with an user (so not a newbie) in mind.

    For those who are worried about "elite" and such:
    Really "elite-ish" is to assume that the person who installs Debian
    is a newbie.


    Cheers
    Geert Stappers
    --
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Apocalypse


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  12. Re: [RFC] Support for using multiple CDs during installation

    On Wednesday 31 October 2007, Geert Stappers wrote:
    > In the Commodore 64 days, I had the game "Fort Apocalypse".


    /me had the same game :-)

    > Please design with an user (so not a newbie) in mind.
    >
    > For those who are worried about "elite" and such:
    > Really "elite-ish" is to assume that the person who installs Debian
    > is a newbie.


    I think I do keep all types of users in mind and IMO they can all deal with
    one extra targeted question.
    However, when thinking about doing installations, keeping in mind people who
    have never seen the installer before just a bit more than people who are
    installing Debian for the 20th time _does_ IMO make sense. And that is what
    I had in mind when I used the term newbie (as in "new to Debian").

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  13. (summary?) Re: [RFC] Support for using multiple CDs during installation

    Quoting Frans Pop (elendil@planet.nl):
    > Your mail seriously put me off for a few days, so I've given myself some
    > extra time to think about it.



    I went through all this discussion as I feel pretty important to get
    this issue solved and decided.

    May I attempt to summarize how I see the "dispute" here? And then give
    my personal advice, based on this interpretation.

    Frans' proposal adds an extra question when doing CD installs, to
    prompt users whether they want to use another CD or not. This, even if
    they did choose a network mirror before.

    Joeyh's argument is being reluctant to extra questions and decide that
    users who did choose a network mirror will, by definition, not want to
    use extra CDs. He therefore proposes to partly "hide" the decision of
    scanning extra CD's in the question about network mirror. If users did
    choose a network mirror, then don't prompt them about extra CDs.

    This main point brings in the way we want to support users without
    broadband available when they install a Debian system.

    From Frans' rationale, we should always give them the opportunity to
    bring in extra packages from additionnal CDs. From Joeyh's one,
    they've answered the question themselves when choosing a network
    mirror.

    From my personal experience of contact with various users and all
    exchanges I had up to now all around the world, I tend to prefer the
    deal of adding an extra question but giving much more flexibility to
    our users (see Holger's or Praveen's points).

    So, with all respect I have for the reluctance to add extra questions
    to defaults installs (imho, Joeyh's strong stance on this...as well as
    Frans' one when he acted as RM, has always kept D-I as "clean" as
    possible), I tend to favourize (en?) Frans approach, here.

    My main reason for this is also that I think that much users will
    *always* choose a mirror even when they don't have broadband (or don't
    want to use it: think about corporate networks where using the
    Internet connections for installing systems is considered harmful even
    if that connection is broadband). So, actually pre-deciding that if
    they do so, they don't want to use extra CDs, is indeed an incorrect
    interpretation of the average user's behaviour wrt questions asked.


    As a conclusion, I really would like to see Frans proposal
    implemented. The plan he proposed seems right to me.





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  14. Re: [RFC] Support for using multiple CDs during installation

    Op 31-10-2007 om 21:53 schreef Holger Levsen:
    > Hi,
    >
    > On Wednesday 31 October 2007 19:23, Frans Pop wrote:
    > > And, as said before, I think it is wanted a lot more than you think. Not
    > > for full sets, but I think for a lot of users downloading the first 2-4 CDs
    > > can be a very sensible option.

    >
    > Debian Edu pretty much wants that, to be able to distribute a CD set "which
    > can be installed fully without a network". Not every schools has dvd drives
    > (at all or in all machines).


    I do understand the "without a network" part.

    I miss the link between Debian-Edu, famous for it's single CD install
    and getting an extra question in the installer for scanning more CDs.
    (which implies leaving the single install CD philosophy for Debian-Edu)


    Cheers
    Geert Stappers


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  15. Re: (summary?) Re: [RFC] Support for using multiple CDs during installation

    Op 01-11-2007 om 07:15 schreef Christian Perrier:

    > As a conclusion, I really would like to see Frans proposal
    > implemented. The plan he proposed seems right to me.


    Funny.

    To me it was allways interresting to see that the debian-installer is
    build by people who have an installed computer.
    Usually people build things they don't have.

    Now there is a new dimension:
    "it is important to scan all CDs at install time"

    Funny, really funny and perhaps sad, very sad.

    I have the feeling that installing a computer became more important
    then have an installed computer.


    :-(
    Geert Stappers


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  16. Re: [RFC] Support for using multiple CDs during installation

    Frans Pop wrote:
    > It's logical from the installer's pov, but not from a _user's_ pov.
    > How the hell is he supposed to guess that he will be asked about additional
    > CDs later when confronted with a question about a network mirror?
    >
    > If I (as a newbie) were confronted by that question I would think "OK, so
    > that's it: I either use the mirror or have to do with what's included on
    > this one CD; let's choose the mirror to be safe".


    Hmm, if you were a true newbie, wouldn't it make sense to assume that
    the Debian installer has a way of using all these CDs you bought? It
    seems to me that the user who would be more confused/disheartened on
    seeing the mirror question before the CD question is a user who's aware
    of Debian's checkered past (which included broken multi-cd support for
    at least one pre-di release, IIRC).

    I suppose we could go back to base-config's concept of:

    Apt currently knows about $N packages.

    add a mirror
    scan another cd
    done

    Although I never felt that was a good UI, and it's not friendly to
    preseeding.

    > And you're not answering the case where someone would want to use 2 CDs +a
    > network mirror because he has a reasonable but not great Internet
    > connection.


    It's unlikely that tasksel is going to want anything beyond what's on
    those first 2 CDs, so it would be reasonable to just use them for the
    install and set up a mirror later.

    --
    see shy jo

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  17. Re: (summary?) Re: [RFC] Support for using multiple CDs during installation

    Christian Perrier wrote:
    > Frans' proposal adds an extra question when doing CD installs, to
    > prompt users whether they want to use another CD or not. This, even if
    > they did choose a network mirror before.


    It asks for all the CDs first, there's no path through the install that
    asks about a network mirror first (if anna uses a network mirror, this
    isn't a full CD and so it doesn't ask for other full CDs, AIUI).

    > My main reason for this is also that I think that much users will
    > *always* choose a mirror even when they don't have broadband (or don't
    > want to use it: think about corporate networks where using the
    > Internet connections for installing systems is considered harmful even
    > if that connection is broadband). So, actually pre-deciding that if
    > they do so, they don't want to use extra CDs, is indeed an incorrect
    > interpretation of the average user's behaviour wrt questions asked.


    If you're on a corporate network and choose to use a mirror and this
    works and yet the corporate network's policy doesn't allow it, than at
    least three things are broken (a stupid policy that trusts random CDs
    more than gpg signed data on the network, a flawed implementation in the
    network, and a flawed adherance to that policy). Sorry, I can't take
    that example too seriously as a goal to design for, although I'm sure
    it's realistic.

    If you're not on broadband and you choose to use a mirror, it takes
    half an hour or more just to download the Packages file. Apt can
    estimate this reaonably well so you shouldn't even need to wait, you can
    just see in the progress bar estimate that the network is slow[1]
    This is a good indication that you made the wrong choice -- installing
    any significant tasks will take much longer -- and all that's really
    needed then is a Cancel button so you can move on to using a CD instead.

    By the way, the above stuff is also nice to have if your network is fast
    but you choose a bad mirror.

    --
    see shy jo

    [1] apt's estimate is not currently exposed to the user by apt-setup,
    but this should be fixable by using debconf-apt-progress.

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  18. Re: (summary?) Re: [RFC] Support for using multiple CDs during installation

    Quoting Geert Stappers (stappers@stappers.nl):
    > Op 01-11-2007 om 07:15 schreef Christian Perrier:
    >
    > > As a conclusion, I really would like to see Frans proposal
    > > implemented. The plan he proposed seems right to me.

    >
    > Funny.



    Sorry but I have actually no clue to understand what you mean by this
    and the following statements.



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  19. Re: (summary?) Re: [RFC] Support for using multiple CDs during installation

    Op 01-11-2007 om 08:49 schreef Christian Perrier:
    > Quoting Geert Stappers (stappers@stappers.nl):
    > > Op 01-11-2007 om 07:15 schreef Christian Perrier:
    > >
    > > > As a conclusion, I really would like to see Frans proposal
    > > > implemented. The plan he proposed seems right to me.

    > >
    > > Funny.

    >
    > Sorry but I have actually no clue to understand what you mean by this
    > and the following statements.


    My message is: Don't do everthing at install time


    Geert Stappers
    Now writing "Don't do" again :-(


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  20. Re: (summary?) Re: [RFC] Support for using multiple CDs during installation

    Op 01-11-2007 om 08:15 schreef Geert Stappers:
    >
    > I have the feeling that installing a computer became more important
    > then have an installed computer.


    | I have the sad feeling that installing a computer became more important
    | then having an installed computer.

    Make the install quick[1] so the user[2] can 'apt-rom add' quickly.


    Cheers
    Geert Stappers

    [1] or even Quick and Dirty
    [2] any person that can do more then boot from CD
    and machine gun the return key.


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