Meeting for etch and a half - Debian

This is a discussion on Meeting for etch and a half - Debian ; (sorry for the nasty cross-posting) hey, Now that 2.6.23 is out and the proposed timeframe for etch 1/2 is just over two months away, its probably a good time to start making some progress on an etch 1/2. Perhaps we ...

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  1. Meeting for etch and a half

    (sorry for the nasty cross-posting)

    hey,
    Now that 2.6.23 is out and the proposed timeframe for etch 1/2 is
    just over two months away, its probably a good time to start making
    some progress on an etch 1/2.

    Perhaps we should start with an IRC meeting? I've created a wiki page
    here with an initial stab at an agenda, starting with "Is it still a
    good idea?":
    http://wiki.debian.org/EtchAndAHalf

    If we have consensus is to proceed, then I'd like to see if we can
    come up with a list of next steps. I'll be travelling Thur->Monday of
    this week, so Wednesday is the only day I can do this week, but next
    week is pretty open. If you're interested in attending, please mark
    available times here:
    http://www.doodle.ch/wa4r43rq55uif8rf

    --
    dann frazier


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  2. Re: Meeting for etch and a half

    dann frazier wrote:
    > (sorry for the nasty cross-posting)
    >
    > hey,
    > Now that 2.6.23 is out and the proposed timeframe for etch 1/2 is
    > just over two months away, its probably a good time to start making
    > some progress on an etch 1/2.


    Yes, I think it's a good time to start the discussion.

    > Perhaps we should start with an IRC meeting? I've created a wiki page
    > here with an initial stab at an agenda, starting with "Is it still a
    > good idea?":
    > http://wiki.debian.org/EtchAndAHalf
    >
    > If we have consensus is to proceed, then I'd like to see if we can
    > come up with a list of next steps. I'll be travelling Thur->Monday of
    > this week, so Wednesday is the only day I can do this week, but next
    > week is pretty open. If you're interested in attending, please mark
    > available times here:
    > http://www.doodle.ch/wa4r43rq55uif8rf


    People that are interested, please mark the times your available so the
    meeting can be scheduled... Dann: you don't seem to be listed? :-)

    Cheers

    Luk


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  3. Re: Meeting for etch and a half

    dann frazier wrote:
    > (sorry for the nasty cross-posting)
    >
    > hey,
    > Now that 2.6.23 is out and the proposed timeframe for etch 1/2 is
    > just over two months away, its probably a good time to start making
    > some progress on an etch 1/2.


    Yes, I think it's a good time to start the discussion.

    > Perhaps we should start with an IRC meeting? I've created a wiki page
    > here with an initial stab at an agenda, starting with "Is it still a
    > good idea?":
    > http://wiki.debian.org/EtchAndAHalf
    >
    > If we have consensus is to proceed, then I'd like to see if we can
    > come up with a list of next steps. I'll be travelling Thur->Monday of
    > this week, so Wednesday is the only day I can do this week, but next
    > week is pretty open. If you're interested in attending, please mark
    > available times here:
    > http://www.doodle.ch/wa4r43rq55uif8rf


    People that are interested, please mark the times your available so the
    meeting can be scheduled... Dann: you don't seem to be listed? :-)

    Cheers

    Luk


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  4. Re: Meeting for etch and a half

    On Mon, Oct 22, 2007 at 06:24:56PM -0600, dann frazier wrote:
    > (sorry for the nasty cross-posting)
    >
    > hey,
    > Now that 2.6.23 is out and the proposed timeframe for etch 1/2 is
    > just over two months away, its probably a good time to start making
    > some progress on an etch 1/2.
    >
    > Perhaps we should start with an IRC meeting? I've created a wiki page
    > here with an initial stab at an agenda, starting with "Is it still a
    > good idea?":
    > http://wiki.debian.org/EtchAndAHalf
    >
    > If we have consensus is to proceed, then I'd like to see if we can
    > come up with a list of next steps. I'll be travelling Thur->Monday of
    > this week, so Wednesday is the only day I can do this week, but next
    > week is pretty open. If you're interested in attending, please mark
    > available times here:
    > http://www.doodle.ch/wa4r43rq55uif8rf


    Looks like 10/31 @ 18:00 GMT works for most, so lets do that.

    --
    dann frazier


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  5. Re: Meeting for etch and a half

    On Mon, Oct 22, 2007 at 06:24:56PM -0600, dann frazier wrote:
    > (sorry for the nasty cross-posting)
    >
    > hey,
    > Now that 2.6.23 is out and the proposed timeframe for etch 1/2 is
    > just over two months away, its probably a good time to start making
    > some progress on an etch 1/2.
    >
    > Perhaps we should start with an IRC meeting? I've created a wiki page
    > here with an initial stab at an agenda, starting with "Is it still a
    > good idea?":
    > http://wiki.debian.org/EtchAndAHalf
    >
    > If we have consensus is to proceed, then I'd like to see if we can
    > come up with a list of next steps. I'll be travelling Thur->Monday of
    > this week, so Wednesday is the only day I can do this week, but next
    > week is pretty open. If you're interested in attending, please mark
    > available times here:
    > http://www.doodle.ch/wa4r43rq55uif8rf


    Looks like 10/31 @ 18:00 GMT works for most, so lets do that.

    --
    dann frazier


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  6. Re: Meeting for etch and a half

    On Sat, Oct 27, 2007 at 06:47:02AM -0600, dann frazier wrote:
    > Looks like 10/31 @ 18:00 GMT works for most, so lets do that.


    Oh, and I guess we should pick a location I propose #debian-release
    for now, when can discuss where to hold future meetings in this one.

    --
    dann frazier


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  7. Re: Meeting for etch and a half

    On Sat, Oct 27, 2007 at 06:47:02AM -0600, dann frazier wrote:
    > Looks like 10/31 @ 18:00 GMT works for most, so lets do that.


    Oh, and I guess we should pick a location I propose #debian-release
    for now, when can discuss where to hold future meetings in this one.

    --
    dann frazier


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  8. Re: Meeting for etch and a half

    On Sat, Oct 27, 2007 at 06:47:04AM -0600, dann frazier wrote:
    > On Mon, Oct 22, 2007 at 06:24:56PM -0600, dann frazier wrote:
    > > (sorry for the nasty cross-posting)
    > >
    > > hey,
    > > Now that 2.6.23 is out and the proposed timeframe for etch 1/2 is
    > > just over two months away, its probably a good time to start making
    > > some progress on an etch 1/2.
    > >
    > > Perhaps we should start with an IRC meeting? I've created a wiki page
    > > here with an initial stab at an agenda, starting with "Is it still a
    > > good idea?":
    > > http://wiki.debian.org/EtchAndAHalf
    > >
    > > If we have consensus is to proceed, then I'd like to see if we can
    > > come up with a list of next steps. I'll be travelling Thur->Monday of
    > > this week, so Wednesday is the only day I can do this week, but next
    > > week is pretty open. If you're interested in attending, please mark
    > > available times here:
    > > http://www.doodle.ch/wa4r43rq55uif8rf

    >
    > Looks like 10/31 @ 18:00 GMT works for most, so lets do that.


    Would someone please post irc logs for those of us who can't make that date?

    - David Nusinow


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  9. Re: Meeting for etch and a half

    On Sat, Oct 27, 2007 at 06:47:04AM -0600, dann frazier wrote:
    > On Mon, Oct 22, 2007 at 06:24:56PM -0600, dann frazier wrote:
    > > (sorry for the nasty cross-posting)
    > >
    > > hey,
    > > Now that 2.6.23 is out and the proposed timeframe for etch 1/2 is
    > > just over two months away, its probably a good time to start making
    > > some progress on an etch 1/2.
    > >
    > > Perhaps we should start with an IRC meeting? I've created a wiki page
    > > here with an initial stab at an agenda, starting with "Is it still a
    > > good idea?":
    > > http://wiki.debian.org/EtchAndAHalf
    > >
    > > If we have consensus is to proceed, then I'd like to see if we can
    > > come up with a list of next steps. I'll be travelling Thur->Monday of
    > > this week, so Wednesday is the only day I can do this week, but next
    > > week is pretty open. If you're interested in attending, please mark
    > > available times here:
    > > http://www.doodle.ch/wa4r43rq55uif8rf

    >
    > Looks like 10/31 @ 18:00 GMT works for most, so lets do that.


    Would someone please post irc logs for those of us who can't make that date?

    - David Nusinow


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  10. Re: Meeting for etch and a half

    On Sun, Oct 28, 2007 at 07:14:06PM -0400, David Nusinow wrote:
    > Would someone please post irc logs for those of us who can't make that date?


    Yes, we will.

    --
    dann frazier


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  11. Re: Meeting for etch and a half

    On Sun, Oct 28, 2007 at 07:14:06PM -0400, David Nusinow wrote:
    > Would someone please post irc logs for those of us who can't make that date?


    Yes, we will.

    --
    dann frazier


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  12. Re: Meeting for etch and a half

    On Tue, Oct 30, 2007 at 05:36:20PM -0600, dann frazier wrote:
    > On Sun, Oct 28, 2007 at 07:14:06PM -0400, David Nusinow wrote:
    > > Would someone please post irc logs for those of us who can't make that date?

    >
    > Yes, we will.


    Great, thank you!

    - David Nusinow


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  13. Re: Meeting for etch and a half

    On Tue, Oct 30, 2007 at 05:36:20PM -0600, dann frazier wrote:
    > On Sun, Oct 28, 2007 at 07:14:06PM -0400, David Nusinow wrote:
    > > Would someone please post irc logs for those of us who can't make that date?

    >
    > Yes, we will.


    Great, thank you!

    - David Nusinow


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  14. Re: Meeting for etch and a half

    On Tue, Oct 30, 2007 at 05:36:20PM -0600, dann frazier wrote:
    > On Sun, Oct 28, 2007 at 07:14:06PM -0400, David Nusinow wrote:
    > > Would someone please post irc logs for those of us who can't make that date?

    >
    > Yes, we will.


    Here ya go:
    http://meetbot.debian.net/meetbot/de...1031_1800.html
    http://meetbot.debian.net/meetbot/de...1031_1800.html

    --
    dann frazier


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  15. Re: Meeting for etch and a half

    On Tue, Oct 30, 2007 at 05:36:20PM -0600, dann frazier wrote:
    > On Sun, Oct 28, 2007 at 07:14:06PM -0400, David Nusinow wrote:
    > > Would someone please post irc logs for those of us who can't make that date?

    >
    > Yes, we will.


    Here ya go:
    http://meetbot.debian.net/meetbot/de...1031_1800.html
    http://meetbot.debian.net/meetbot/de...1031_1800.html

    --
    dann frazier


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  16. Re: Meeting for etch and a half

    On Wed, Oct 31, 2007 at 01:51:59PM -0600, dann frazier wrote:
    > On Tue, Oct 30, 2007 at 05:36:20PM -0600, dann frazier wrote:
    > > On Sun, Oct 28, 2007 at 07:14:06PM -0400, David Nusinow wrote:
    > > > Would someone please post irc logs for those of us who can't make that date?

    > >
    > > Yes, we will.

    >
    > Here ya go:
    > http://meetbot.debian.net/meetbot/de...1031_1800.html
    > http://meetbot.debian.net/meetbot/de...1031_1800.html


    As per the minutes, and thanks to Michael Banck, we now have a mailing
    list for etch and a half discussions.

    Post address: project-etchnahalf@teams.debian.net
    Subscribe address: project-etchnahalf-subscrie@teams.debian.net
    Archives: http://teams.debian.net/lurker/list/...nahalf.en.html

    Sorry for the delay in setting it up; seems my first request never
    made it.

    --
    dann frazier


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  17. Re: Meeting for etch and a half

    On Wed, Oct 31, 2007 at 01:51:59PM -0600, dann frazier wrote:
    > On Tue, Oct 30, 2007 at 05:36:20PM -0600, dann frazier wrote:
    > > On Sun, Oct 28, 2007 at 07:14:06PM -0400, David Nusinow wrote:
    > > > Would someone please post irc logs for those of us who can't make that date?

    > >
    > > Yes, we will.

    >
    > Here ya go:
    > http://meetbot.debian.net/meetbot/de...1031_1800.html
    > http://meetbot.debian.net/meetbot/de...1031_1800.html


    As per the minutes, and thanks to Michael Banck, we now have a mailing
    list for etch and a half discussions.

    Post address: project-etchnahalf@teams.debian.net
    Subscribe address: project-etchnahalf-subscrie@teams.debian.net
    Archives: http://teams.debian.net/lurker/list/...nahalf.en.html

    Sorry for the delay in setting it up; seems my first request never
    made it.

    --
    dann frazier


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  18. etch+1/2 D-I options (was: Meeting for etch and a half)

    (Not CCing -release, -kernel and -x as I assume the relevant people will be
    subscribed to the project list. Please follow-up to all three lists.)

    On Tuesday 23 October 2007, dann frazier wrote:
    > Now that 2.6.23 is out and the proposed timeframe for etch 1/2 is
    > just over two months away, its probably a good time to start making
    > some progress on an etch 1/2.


    I have been thinking on and off about options how installations for Etch
    using a newer kernel than 2.6.18 could be supported by D-I and CDs.
    I have never been particularly happy with the conclusions I came to and thus
    have been somewhat sceptical about the practical feasibility of the whole
    etch+1/2 concept.

    However, I think I now have some possible options fairly straight in my head
    and even feel some of them could work in practice. So here they are.
    Note that these are my current, personal thoughts. They have not been
    checked with any other members of the D-I team or anybody else.

    I've come up with four options:
    1) a new version of the Etch installer with support for both kernels
    2) creating a second Etch installer based on the new kernel
    3) using the Lenny installer to install Etch
    4) option 3 + creating limited CD images based on the Lenny installer

    Below an analysis of these options.


    1) A new version of the Etch installer with support for both kernels
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    This option would IMNSHO be insanity.

    First, I doubt people who are able and will want to work on the D-I side of
    it can be found.

    Second, it would require having D-I initrds + kernel udebs + kernel packages
    for 2 kernel versions on CDs meaning that netinst images would grow beyond
    reasonable size and that an unacceptable number of other packages would get
    pushed off the first full CD and DVD which would result in a significantly
    reduced installation experience, mainly for the desktop task.


    2) Creating a second Etch installer based on the new kernel
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    This is about on the same insanity level.

    It would also require extra work by FTP-masters because we'd somehow need
    two separate D-I builds (sources, deb and images) in stable and on the
    mirrors at the same time.
    The only realistic option would be keeping the second installer outside the
    archive, but that has its own disadvantages (chain of trust).

    And again I don't know who'd do the D-I work on it.


    3) Using the Lenny installer to install Etch
    --------------------------------------------
    This would be the easiest option.

    It is realistic for the following reasons:
    - D-I is basically a mature product; a lot would have to go completely
    wrong to have Lenny D-I releases that are not generally usable
    - this has already been proven with Etch and D-I has only gotten more
    stable; of course there will be a few errata, but there should be
    nothing major; a lot of issues in betas have to do with _testing_ as
    a suite and not with D-I

    The supported installation methods would be limited: no netinst CD or full
    CD. For all other methods the user would have two options:
    - run installation in expert mode or at medium priority; (s)he will then
    be asked what suite to install and what kernel to install
    - boot the installer with:
    suite=stable base-installer/kernel/image=linux-image-2.6.24-x-$flavor
    (or use 'suite=etch'); basically we tell the user to specify the actual
    kernel instead of the default meta package; we can easily (and probably
    should anyway) add an alias 'kernel' instead of the cumbersome parameter
    'base-installer/kernel/image'

    Of course you would need at least a Lenny beta 1 D-I release for this.

    Disadvantages (mainly netboot, not for businesscard and hd-media images):
    - when a new Lenny D-I release is prepared, the old one can temporarily
    be broken
    - with later Lenny D-I releases the kernel used in the Lenny installer
    could become newer than the etch+1/2 one
    - if there were to be major changes at some point, supporting stable
    installs could become harder or even impossible


    4) Option 3 + creating selected CD images based on the Lenny installer
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    This would mainly depend on available debian-cd mirror capacity.

    This option is mostly relevant for netinst CDs and full CD/DVDs and
    partially for businesscard CDs. It does not change 3) for netboot.

    It is relatively trivial to create CD images using packages from stable but
    D-I from testing. I'd suggest not building full CD sets, but just the first
    or first few images in a set.

    By including _only_ the new kernel packages on the CDs and omitting any meta
    packages, the installer would automatically install the correct kernel.
    For some architectures it should be possible to modify the default boot
    parameters on the images so that the 'suite=etch' option is included by
    default (with 'suite?=etch' the user would even still be prompted at lower
    priorities).

    The disadvantages listed for 3) do _not_ apply to CD images as they are
    self-contained and thus are not affected by changes in the Lenny archive.


    Hope this helps, or at least informs.

    Cheers,
    FJP

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  19. Re: etch+1/2 D-I options (was: Meeting for etch and a half)

    On Wednesday 12 December 2007, Frans Pop wrote:
    > (Not CCing -release, -kernel and -x as I assume the relevant people will
    > be subscribed to the project list. Please follow-up to all three lists.)


    Note: the original mail did not reach the etch+1/2 list because I was given
    the wrong address...

    Please correct the address to project-etchnahalf@teams.debian.net when
    replying!

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  20. Re: etch+1/2 D-I options (was: Meeting for etch and a half)

    (No need to CC me; I'm subscribed to the debian-boot list.)

    On Thursday 13 December 2007, Andrew McGlashan wrote:
    > I am essentially a novice in this area, but what is wrong with leaving
    > the installer as is -- especially netinst? The kernel could be upgraded
    > post install if required. I love being able to build boxes with just
    > netinst and a good Internet connection.


    The main idea behind having a newer kernel is to add support for new
    hardware. So, if the installer just keeps the old kernel and that kernel
    does not support their disk controller, how are they supposed to get to the
    post-install stage?

    > 5) Leave installer as is, require user actioned kernel upgrade post
    > install IF required.


    Note that my options 3 and 4 basically _are_ your option 5: the official
    Etch installer is not touched.
    We just tell people that there is an alternative to that installer using the
    old kernel and possibly provide some selected _additional_ CD images with
    the new kernel.

    Cheers,
    FJP

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