kmail corrupts emails - Debian

This is a discussion on kmail corrupts emails - Debian ; Pete Jewell wrote: > However, ReiserFS is *much* more efficient when you have thousands of > files in one directory, because it uses a hashing algorithm to determine > where the required file is (or starts) in the filesystem. This ...

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Thread: kmail corrupts emails

  1. Re: kmail corrupts emails [solved]

    Pete Jewell wrote:

    > However, ReiserFS is *much* more efficient when you have thousands of
    > files in one directory, because it uses a hashing algorithm to determine
    > where the required file is (or starts) in the filesystem. This is
    > something I know about (hashing) based on my experience with Pick
    > database systems, which also use hashing and are incredibly fast at
    > keyed record retrieval (as well as entire file/table traversal).


    There's a blast from the past. I did too much work with Pick databases... I
    managed not to learn anything more about hashing, too.
    --
    derek


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  2. Re: kmail corrupts emails [solved]

    I complained about this a long time ago to KMail developers. KMail does
    not store the metadata (Flags and the like) back into the file, but
    only in the index files. (For some performance reason, but Mutt is
    faster and does it)

    Now once touched with Mutt, Mutt writes back the metadata into the mbox,
    the KMail indexes are corrupt and one loses all the flags (read-replied
    deleted, etc). I don't know if this is also true for the
    maildir-format, but KMail is definitely locking in the user with this
    behavior. If you only have a terminal, you can't read your mail remote.
    The only way out is using IMAP and accessing it from different clients.

    If it wouldn't be for the Kontact-integration, I would have abandoned
    KMail for that reason as I hate lock-in scenarios. AFAIK, this hasn't
    been fixed. If I get more time, I will try again with samples to use
    Mutt and KMail together over a folder in maildir-format.

    Best,

    Rigo


    Am Friday 23 September 2005 19:29 verlautbarte Theo Schmidt :
    > >Here, from directory ~/.Mail, is the ls -al listing for one (mbox)
    > > folder (named tldp) with the three indexes. *To start, you might
    > > want to experiment with just one mail folder. *Delete all three of
    > > the .index files, then restart kmail (assuming you shut it down)
    > > and try to access the mail in that folder. *After a short delay,
    > > I'm hopeful that it will be ok.
    > >
    > >-rw------- * 1 rhk rhk * 868526 Sep 19 16:05 tldp
    > >-rw------- * 1 rhk rhk * *99043 Sep 19 16:05 .tldp.index
    > >-rw-r--r-- * 1 rhk rhk * * *937 Sep 19 16:05 .tldp.index.ids
    > >-rw-r--r-- * 1 rhk rhk * * 5425 Aug 24 07:28 .tldp.index.sorted
    > > *

    >
    > This has solved it, thanks! *Kmail used to compact mailboxes on
    > closing; it looks like it no longer does so.


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  3. Re: kmail corrupts emails [solved]

    El MiÚrcoles, 28 de Septiembre de 2005 15:24, Rigo Wenning escribiˇ:
    > I complained about this a long time ago to KMail developers. KMail does
    > not store the metadata (Flags and the like) back into the file, but
    > only in the index files. (For some performance reason, but Mutt is
    > faster and does it)
    >
    > Now once touched with Mutt, Mutt writes back the metadata into the mbox,
    > the KMail indexes are corrupt and one loses all the flags (read-replied
    > deleted, etc). I don't know if this is also true for the
    > maildir-format, but KMail is definitely locking in the user with this
    > behavior. If you only have a terminal, you can't read your mail remote.
    > The only way out is using IMAP and accessing it from different clients.


    No, it changes the filenames, as far as I know:

    -rw-rw-r-- 1 ender ender 1469 sep 18 2002 1032160529.8617.MYBT:2,RS
    -rw-rw-r-- 1 ender ender 2083 sep 18 2002 1032370719.16260.amNs:2,S
    -rw-rw-r-- 1 ender ender 2527 ene 17 2003 1032970004.13325.X1L8:2,S
    -rw-rw-r-- 1 ender ender 2035 abr 28 2003 1051531899.16760.dQzI:2,S
    -rw-rw-r-- 1 ender ender 2444 sep 17 2003 1052062900.16760.DkV0:2,S
    -rw-rw-r-- 1 ender ender 3111 oct 15 2004 1097478594.6170.ZTHEL:2,S
    -rw-rw-r-- 1 ender ender 10272 jul 26 16:20 1122387654.3012.qLs7u:2,S

    See the stuff added at the end. With it you can recreate the state of your
    folder without problem.

    I changed all my KMail folders to Maildir format a couple of years ago in
    order to avoid corruption.

    Regards,


    Ender.
    --
    I'm packing your extra pair of shoes and your ANGRY eyes!
    -- Mrs. Potato to Mr. Potato (Toy Story 2).
    --
    Debian developer

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  4. Re: kmail corrupts emails [solved]

    Thanks a lot, will do too,

    but it remains that I need allies in convincing KMail developers to use
    their index only for caching and not for valid information. Valid info
    should be written back to the maildir and KMail should not complain
    when opening a maildir touched by another agent.

    Best,

    Rigo

    Am Wednesday 28 September 2005 16:38 verlautbarte David Mart├*nez
    Moreno :
    > ┬*┬*┬*┬*┬*┬*┬*┬*I changed all my KMail folders to Maildir format a couple of
    > years ago in order to avoid corruption.


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  5. Re: kmail corrupts emails [solved]

    On Wed, Sep 28, 2005 at 06:26:29PM +0200, Rigo Wenning wrote:
    > Thanks a lot, will do too,
    >
    > but it remains that I need allies in convincing KMail developers to use
    > their index only for caching and not for valid information. Valid info
    > should be written back to the maildir and KMail should not complain
    > when opening a maildir touched by another agent.


    You could open a bugzilla change request and get us all to vote for it !
    It's the major reason why I don't use kmail, even though I love the rest
    of KDE.

    Nick


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  6. Re: kmail corrupts emails [solved]

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    On Wednesday 28 September 2005 18:31, Nick Leverton wrote:
    > On Wed, Sep 28, 2005 at 06:26:29PM +0200, Rigo Wenning wrote:
    > > Thanks a lot, will do too,
    > >
    > > but it remains that I need allies in convincing KMail developers to use
    > > their index only for caching and not for valid information.


    He? MBox is just the text of all messages concatenated together. Are you sure
    that other MUAs store the message status in there? Unless I'm mistaken, the
    mbox format doesn't support this.

    BTW, about which version of mbox are you talking exactly? There are several
    different mbox formats out there:
    http://homepages.tesco.net./~J.deBoy...x-formats.html
    Each of them is a bit different so you will run into problems when you access
    them with different MUAs that support a different mbox format.

    > > Valid info
    > > should be written back to the maildir


    Are you now talking about maildir or mbox?
    Anyway, neither maildir nor mbox store the status flags directly in the
    message. mbox uses the index file, maildir uses the file name (for those
    flags supported by Maildir). And some info, like the "To-Do" flag in kmail,
    cannot be saved into it at all. They can only be stored in the local index
    file.

    > > and KMail should not complain
    > > when opening a maildir touched by another agent.

    >
    > You could open a bugzilla change request and get us all to vote for it !


    Even better: Provide a patch...

    Cheers,
    Reinhold

    PS: Regarding the mbox is better/faster/whatever:
    http://www.courier-mta.org/mbox-vs-maildir/
    "The final conclusion is that -- except in some specific instances -- using
    maildirs will be just as fast -- and in sometimes much faster -- than mbox
    files, while placing less of a load on the rest of the mail system."

    - --
    - ------------------------------------------------------------------
    Reinhold Kainhofer, Vienna University of Technology, Austria
    email: reinhold@kainhofer.com, http://reinhold.kainhofer.com/
    * Financial and Actuarial Mathematics, TU Wien, http://www.fam.tuwien.ac.at/
    * K Desktop Environment, http://www.kde.org, KOrganizer maintainer
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  7. Re: kmail corrupts emails [solved]

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    On Wednesday 28 September 2005 18:59, Reinhold Kainhofer wrote:
    > On Wednesday 28 September 2005 18:31, Nick Leverton wrote:
    > > On Wed, Sep 28, 2005 at 06:26:29PM +0200, Rigo Wenning wrote:
    > > > Thanks a lot, will do too,
    > > >
    > > > but it remains that I need allies in convincing KMail developers to use
    > > > their index only for caching and not for valid information.

    >
    > He? MBox is just the text of all messages concatenated together. Are you
    > sure that other MUAs store the message status in there? Unless I'm
    > mistaken, the mbox format doesn't support this.


    Sorry, I should be more exact: The mbox format (or rather the email message
    format, since mbox is just messages concatenated together) has a Status field
    for some status flags, but not others like for "message was deleted" or
    message is a to-do, etc.. That can only be stored in the index file or not at
    all.
    Mutt for example doesn't store that at all. You can either purge the messages
    when you leave mutt (in which case, the mbox file is rewritten... Great for a
    huge folder!) or if you don't purge them, they are there again when you next
    start mutt.

    Cheers,
    Reinhold


    - --
    - ------------------------------------------------------------------
    Reinhold Kainhofer, Vienna University of Technology, Austria
    email: reinhold@kainhofer.com, http://reinhold.kainhofer.com/
    * Financial and Actuarial Mathematics, TU Wien, http://www.fam.tuwien.ac.at/
    * K Desktop Environment, http://www.kde.org, KOrganizer maintainer
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  8. Re: kmail corrupts emails [solved]

    Reinhold Kainhofer wrote:

    > On Wednesday 28 September 2005 18:31, Nick Leverton wrote:
    >> On Wed, Sep 28, 2005 at 06:26:29PM +0200, Rigo Wenning wrote:
    >> > Thanks a lot, will do too,
    >> >
    >> > but it remains that I need allies in convincing KMail developers to use
    >> > their index only for caching and not for valid information.

    >
    > He? MBox is just the text of all messages concatenated together. Are you
    > sure that other MUAs store the message status in there? Unless I'm
    > mistaken, the mbox format doesn't support this.


    It could be stored as an X- header in the message - but kmail can hardly be
    blamed if somebody else uses a completely non-standard way to mark status.
    --
    derek


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  9. Re: kmail corrupts emails

    Nick Leverton schrieb:
    >>Valid info
    >>should be written back to the maildir and KMail should not complain
    >>when opening a maildir touched by another agent.

    >
    > You could open a bugzilla change request and get us all to vote for it !
    > It's the major reason why I don't use kmail, even though I love the rest
    > of KDE.


    Do these problems also apply to Thunderbird, do you think, Nick? I have
    just switched to this even though I prefer kmail to Thunderbird, because
    I don't trust kmail any more for the mbox format and am not yet ready to
    switch to maildir (using ext3 and not reiserfs). (I hope asking this
    question isn't heresy on this list.)

    Theo Schmidt


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  10. Re: kmail corrupts emails

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    On Wednesday 28 September 2005 20:51, Theo Schmidt wrote:
    > Nick Leverton schrieb:
    > >>Valid info
    > >>should be written back to the maildir and KMail should not complain
    > >>when opening a maildir touched by another agent.

    > >
    > > You could open a bugzilla change request and get us all to vote for it !
    > > It's the major reason why I don't use kmail, even though I love the rest
    > > of KDE.

    >
    > Do these problems also apply to Thunderbird, do you think, Nick? I have
    > just switched to this even though I prefer kmail to Thunderbird, because
    > I don't trust kmail any more for the mbox format and am not yet ready to
    > switch to maildir (using ext3 and not reiserfs).


    I'm using maildir, too, and I only use ext3. That's no problem at all.
    Actually, reading the maildir vs. mbox comparison for which I sent the link in
    one of my previous mails, they state that ext2 is just fine (for using
    Maildir with a courier mail server, so it should definitely also be fine for
    a home user).

    Cheers,
    Reinhold
    - --
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    email: reinhold@kainhofer.com, http://reinhold.kainhofer.com/
    * Financial and Actuarial Mathematics, TU Wien, http://www.fam.tuwien.ac.at/
    * K Desktop Environment, http://www.kde.org, KOrganizer maintainer
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  11. Re: kmail corrupts emails [solved]


    Am Wednesday 28 September 2005 18:59 verlautbarte Reinhold Kainhofer :
    > He? MBox is just the text of all messages concatenated together. Are
    > you sure that other MUAs store the message status in there? Unless
    > I'm mistaken, the mbox format doesn't support this.


    Common, there are all sorts of X-Headers in emails.. The format is quite
    old and the
    >
    > BTW, about which version of mbox are you talking exactly? There are
    > several different mbox formats out there:
    > http://homepages.tesco.net./~J.deBoy...mbox-formats.h
    >tml Each of them is a bit different so you will run into problems when
    > you access them with different MUAs that support a different mbox
    > format.


    I just learned recently, that mbox is not a very well defined format.
    That's why in my email, if you read it carefully, I said I will switch
    to maildir for all my folders.

    Nevertheless, the thread in KDE's bugzilla was rather revealing:
    http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=37898

    In fact there is not much to do to actually fix it. I should start a
    fund collection to fix the issue.
    >
    > > > Valid info
    > > > should be written back to the maildir

    >
    > Are you now talking about maildir or mbox?


    That means I talked about maildir. And no, it is not ok to force people
    to only touch email with KMail by storing stuff in the index when those
    indexes get corrupted by touching stuff with other agents.

    > Anyway, neither maildir nor mbox store the status flags directly in
    > the message. mbox uses the index file, maildir uses the file name
    > (for those flags supported by Maildir). And some info, like the
    > "To-Do" flag in kmail, cannot be saved into it at all. They can only
    > be stored in the local index file.


    I don't think this is correct as they can be stored in X-Headers.
    Whatever format (index or X-Header) one would chose, it would have to
    respect the common practice that one touches email-archives with more
    than one user-agent.
    >
    > > > and KMail should not complain
    > > > when opening a maildir touched by another agent.

    > >
    > > You could open a bugzilla change request and get us all to vote for
    > > it !

    >
    > Even better: Provide a patch...


    IAAL, so patch is bad. If I could I would have provided it a year ago.
    It all started by corrupting files... (see kde bugzilla above) If I
    would provide a patch, not only the files would get corrupted

    I think I will create a bugzilla change request and see what happens.
    When I complained last time, the only argument was missing support and
    developing time (a very relevant argument in open source) But I haven't
    managed to find someone sufficiently literate in KMail sources to
    support my request without funding involved. I will have to further
    look out.

    Best,

    Rigo

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  12. Re: kmail corrupts emails

    On Wed, Sep 28, 2005 at 08:51:23PM +0200, Theo Schmidt wrote:

    > Do these problems also apply to Thunderbird, do you think, Nick? I have
    > just switched to this even though I prefer kmail to Thunderbird, because
    > I don't trust kmail any more for the mbox format and am not yet ready to
    > switch to maildir (using ext3 and not reiserfs). (I hope asking this
    > question isn't heresy on this list.)


    I don't find the choice of filesystem makes a major difference to personal
    mail, if you're not running a big mail hub :-) Reiser would be better if
    you're running maildirs with more than, say, a thousand messages (finger
    in the air figure :-)) but I found that Mutt is a couple of seconds
    slower to open a large mailbox when it's 3000 files rather than one.
    I user Reiser here because it's good at recovering from crashes, there's
    no lost+found on a Reiser filesystem cos files don't get lost!

    I prefer maildir though as it's much quicker for Mutt to write the 'read'
    status and any other changes you make, such as re-threading or deleting
    large attachments. Kmail is also good for this as you can filter stuff
    to your heart's content, into loads of not-so-large maildirs.

    It's not hard for a programmer to lock a mailbox against conflicting
    changes even if it is all one mbox, anyway. Mutt manages its mail by
    modifying private headers and I think trad Unix mail tools do the same.

    I think Netscape Mail as well, and hence presumably Thunderbird does.
    Pine keeps its status in a special first mail, which can confuse people
    when they read it with anything else.

    I think kmail's a pretty good mailer, but it lacks a way to interwork
    when I want to mail from the command line. I tend to leave kmail running
    on the main mailbox so that filters can redirect stuff. Mutt, at least,
    also can't (AFAIK) read kmail's maildir++++ format, indexes or no !

    I only wonder if there's an issue with mailboxes on remote servers.
    If you can only RETR or DELE a mail, you kind of need an outside index :-)

    Nick


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