For sid users: An overview of the KDE C++ ABI transition - Debian

This is a discussion on For sid users: An overview of the KDE C++ ABI transition - Debian ; Hello all, the purpose of this mail is to explain a bit, from a user point of view, the upcoming C++ ABI transition for KDE: when will it start, and how will it affect you. If after reading this you ...

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  1. For sid users: An overview of the KDE C++ ABI transition

    Hello all,

    the purpose of this mail is to explain a bit, from a user point of
    view, the upcoming C++ ABI transition for KDE: when will it start, and
    how will it affect you. If after reading this you still have doubts,
    please bring them up and some member of the KDE packaging team will
    try to address them.

    * * *

    What
    ~~~~

    As a user, you'll just notice that some library packages have been
    renamed, and that trying to dist-upgrade them will make apt want to
    remove a lot of stuff. For example, libqt3c102-mt will become
    libqt3-mt; libarts1, libarts1c2; and kdelibs4, kdelibs4c2.

    The explanation as for why is this necessary, and other technical
    details, can be found elsewhere if you're curious (e.g., Matthias
    Klose's mails in d-d-a).


    When
    ~~~~

    Real soon now. We've uploaded a transitioned Qt already, and as
    soon as it's compiled in all arches we'll start uploading arts and
    kdelibs, and the rest of KDE will follow. If Qt or kdelibs has
    trouble compiling with GCC 4.0 in some arches, things could get
    delayed a bit, though.


    KDE 3.4.2
    ~~~~~~~~~

    As KDE 3.4.2 has been recently released, we've decided that these
    transitioned packages we'll be uploading will be 3.4.2 already,
    instead of 3.4.1 or 3.3.2. Christopher Martin has been preparing
    most of the 3.4.2 modules in SVN, so we're mostly ready. That for
    the good news, yay! On the other hand, since there won't be 3.4.2
    packages compiled with GCC 3.3, you'll have to actually wait a bit
    longer to be able to install the packages (see below), though not as
    long as if we were uploading 3.4.1 instead.

    Which takes us to...


    When will we be done?
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Basically, the thing will be 100% finished when KDE 3.4.2 is ready
    to enter testing, which can be roughly translated to "when every
    package depending on kdelibs4 has been recompiled to depend on
    kdelibs4c2 instead".

    Now, please read this paragraph carefully: even when all of KDE
    3.4.2 official modulels have been uploaded, there'll still probably
    be some applications in unstable that will depend on kdelibs4, and
    their maintainers will have to fix that. If you use one of these
    applications (and chances are you do), you won't be able to install
    KDE 3.4.2 until that application gets recompiled against kdelibs4c2,
    unless you decide to temporarily remove it. In the testing
    distribution, this is assured not to happen (except exceptionally).

    But hey, we don't expect it to be that bad. Most maintainers will
    upload fixed packages in a timely manner, and for those who don't,
    we will hopefully prepare NMUs to make the transition go faster.


    Final recommendations
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    In my opinion, the best you can do is to ignore KDE updates in sid
    until we get back to you on this list and say, "hey, it seems KDE is
    in a mostly useable state now, with these gotchas". To achieve this,
    you can either don't dist-upgrade at all, cherry pick with a package
    manager like aptitude or synaptic which packages to upgrade, do
    "apt-get upgrade" instead of "dist-upgrade", and/or put libarts1 and
    kdelibs4 on hold. Or you may even want to consider temporarily
    switcthing to Etch (testing).

    And, finally: please, please, please, don't file bugs against KDE
    packages regarding them being uninstallable, or them crashing, until
    the above mentioned mail is sent (the "KDE mostly useable now" one).
    Those bugs will be well known by us, are expected in sid, and all
    they manage is to waste our time and annoy us a bit.

    Greatings from the Debian Qt/KDE Maintainers,

    --
    Adeodato Simˇ
    EM: asp16 [ykwim] alu.ua.es | PK: DA6AE621

    It is impossible to make anything foolproof because fools are so ingenious.


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  2. Re: For sid users: An overview of the KDE C++ ABI transition

    On Tuesday 09 August 2005 23:31, Adeodato Simˇ wrote:
    > Hello all,
    >
    > the purpose of this mail is to explain a bit, from a user point of
    > view, the upcoming C++ ABI transition for KDE: when will it start,
    > and how will it affect you. If after reading this you still have
    > doubts, please bring them up and some member of the KDE packaging
    > team will try to address them.


    Thanks for the info!


    Cheers,
    AndrÚ

  3. Re: For sid users: An overview of the KDE C++ ABI transition

    On Tuesday 09 August 2005 23:54, AndrÚ W÷bbeking wrote:
    > On Tuesday 09 August 2005 23:31, Adeodato Simˇ wrote:
    > > Hello all,
    > >
    > > the purpose of this mail is to explain a bit, from a user point
    > > of view, the upcoming C++ ABI transition for KDE: when will it
    > > start, and how will it affect you. If after reading this you still
    > > have doubts, please bring them up and some member of the KDE
    > > packaging team will try to address them.

    >
    > Thanks for the info!


    I second that! Thank you for your efforts!

    > Cheers,
    > AndrÚ


    --
    Linux 2.6.12 #1 Sat Jul 9 23:28:04 CEST 2005 i686
    00:02:56 up 4:07, 0 users, load average: 0.21, 0.72, 0.87


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  4. Re: For sid users: An overview of the KDE C++ ABI transition

    * Werner Mahr [Wed, 10 Aug 2005 00:13:16 +0200]:

    > > to remove a lot of stuff. For example, libqt3c102-mt will become
    > > libqt3-mt; libarts1, libarts1c2; and kdelibs4, kdelibs4c2.


    > Could you tell me, why c102, or c2?


    : The explanation as for why is this necessary, and other technical
    : details, can be found elsewhere if you're curious (e.g., Matthias
    : Klose's mails in d-d-a).

    http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel.../msg00004.html
    http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel.../msg00001.html

    (Your question falls under "other technical details".)

    --
    Adeodato Simˇ
    EM: asp16 [ykwim] alu.ua.es | PK: DA6AE621

    Any life, no matter how long and complex it may be, is made up of a
    single moment: the moment in which a man finds out, once and for all,
    who he is.
    -- Jorge Luis Borges


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  5. Re: For sid users: An overview of the KDE C++ ABI transition

    Am Dienstag, 9. August 2005 23:31 schrieb Adeodato Simˇ:

    > to remove a lot of stuff. For example, libqt3c102-mt will become
    > libqt3-mt; libarts1, libarts1c2; and kdelibs4, kdelibs4c2.


    Could you tell me, why c102, or c2?

    --
    MfG usw.

    Werner Mahr
    registered Linuxuser: 295882

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  6. Re: For sid users: An overview of the KDE C++ ABI transition

    On 8/9/05, Greg ****burn wrote:
    > Thank you so much. It is great to see 'you guys' give us feedback
    > about what is happening,


    kde-3.4.1 seems to work well with sarge, so I was hoping to be able to
    upgrade to 3.4.2 also. But, all these changes of 3.4.2 for sid make
    me think it will be unlikely that 3.4.2 will run in sarge. Anyone
    have a suggestion on how to backport the kde update into sarge? For
    example, would the build scripts for 3.4.1 be useful in building kde's
    raw 3.4.2 sources on a sarge box? Or, does anyone know if anyone else
    is already working on back porting? I'm probably not the only person
    interested in this.

    TIA

  7. Re: For sid users: An overview of the KDE C++ ABI transition

    And I third that! Thanks for your hard work and dedication.

    Tim

    On Tuesday 09 August 2005 04:03 pm, Yves Glodt wrote:
    > On Tuesday 09 August 2005 23:54, AndrÚ W÷bbeking wrote:
    > > On Tuesday 09 August 2005 23:31, Adeodato Simˇ wrote:
    > > > Hello all,
    > > >
    > > > the purpose of this mail is to explain a bit, from a user point
    > > > of view, the upcoming C++ ABI transition for KDE: when will it
    > > > start, and how will it affect you. If after reading this you still
    > > > have doubts, please bring them up and some member of the KDE
    > > > packaging team will try to address them.

    > >
    > > Thanks for the info!

    >
    > I second that! Thank you for your efforts!
    >
    > > Cheers,
    > > AndrÚ

    >
    > --
    > Linux 2.6.12 #1 Sat Jul 9 23:28:04 CEST 2005 i686
    > 00:02:56 up 4:07, 0 users, load average: 0.21, 0.72, 0.87


  8. Re: For sid users: An overview of the KDE C++ ABI transition

    On Tue, Aug 09, 2005 at 11:31:22PM +0200, Adeodato Simˇ wrote:
    > Hello all,
    >
    > the purpose of this mail is to explain a bit, from a user point of
    > view, the upcoming C++ ABI transition for KDE: when will it start, and
    > how will it affect you. If after reading this you still have doubts,
    > please bring them up and some member of the KDE packaging team will
    > try to address them.

    Hi Adeodato,
    Thank you very much for your email outlining the current plans for the
    kde transition and its impact on SID users. Awhile ago, another DD made
    a similar email in regards to the gutenprint transition. I asked other
    debian-user SID users about having such mails in the future and all
    agreed that as the ones who maintain (mostly) SID desktop system, that
    this would allow us to avoid big problem and would alert us as to the
    actual cause of system instability which I feel would lead to more
    accurate bug reports. I was going to propose this idea on debian-devel
    that the DD who is the lead on the big transition create a similar email
    whenever similar events take place ie: xorg, kde, gnome,jack,
    c++,libc,etc. Should I bother to compose a request to debian-devel or
    would I be seen as 'another cumbersome policy' for folks who are
    expected to deal with what ever is thrown at them.
    back to the sauna,
    Kev

    --
    counter.li.org #238656 -- goto counter.li.org and be counted!
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    $$ $ $$ggggg$ $ $ $ ,$P"" $ $ $
    `$g. ,$$ `$$._ _. $ _,g$P $ `$b. ,$$ $ $
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  9. Re: For sid users: An overview of the KDE C++ ABI transition

    On Tuesday 09 August 2005 23:31, Adeodato Simˇ wrote:

    [snip]

    > * * In my opinion, the best you can do is to ignore KDE updates in sid
    > * * until we get back to you on this list and say, "hey, it seems KDEis
    > * * in a mostly useable state now, with these gotchas". To achieve this,


    Have we reached that state or do you recommend waiting a bit more?

    Cheers,
    Kevin

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  10. Re: For sid users: An overview of the KDE C++ ABI transition

    El Viernes, 16 de Septiembre de 2005 22:50, Kevin Krammer escribi├│:
    > On Tuesday 09 August 2005 23:31, Adeodato Sim├│ wrote:
    >
    > [snip]
    >
    > > ┬* ┬* In my opinion, the best you can do is to ignore KDE updates in sid
    > > ┬* ┬* until we get back to you on this list and say, "hey, it seems KDE is
    > > ┬* ┬* in a mostly useable state now, with these gotchas". To achieve this,

    >
    > Have we reached that state or do you recommend waiting a bit more?


    I think it depends on the packages you have installed.

    In my case, I'm waiting for kdevelop3 (uploaded recently), but if you have
    installed, for example, koffice, you will have to wait a bit more.

    If you don't care removing some of your packages, and installing them again
    when they are transitioned, should be OK.

    --
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    http://darkshines.net/ - Jabber ID: suy@bulmalug.net

  11. Re: For sid users: An overview of the KDE C++ ABI transition

    Am Samstag 17 September 2005 01:51 schrieb Alejandro Exojo:
    > El Viernes, 16 de Septiembre de 2005 22:50, Kevin Krammer escribi├│:
    > > On Tuesday 09 August 2005 23:31, Adeodato Sim├│ wrote:
    > >
    > > [snip]
    > >
    > > > ┬* ┬* In my opinion, the best you can do is to ignore KDE updates in
    > > > sid until we get back to you on this list and say, "hey, it seems
    > > > KDE is in a mostly useable state now, with these gotchas". To
    > > > achieve this,

    > >
    > > Have we reached that state or do you recommend waiting a bit more?

    >
    > I think it depends on the packages you have installed.
    >
    > In my case, I'm waiting for kdevelop3 (uploaded recently), but if you
    > have installed, for example, koffice, you will have to wait a bit more.
    >
    > If you don't care removing some of your packages, and installing them
    > again when they are transitioned, should be OK.


    Hello,

    I waited till most of the packages I want to have transitioned. Then I
    started "apt-get dist-upgrade", copied and pasted the list of still non
    transitioned packages packages that were to be removed into a text file
    and went on.

    Now I can refer to that text file and install what is in there when
    transitioned packages become available. KOffice is still on that list ,
    but since I mostly use OpenOffice.org its not urgent for me.

    I am quite happy with that. There are some rough ends here and there, but
    in general I can work productively with my system.

    Still I do not beg the GCC developers to do another of those ABI
    transitions anytime soon. Anyway I believe they had their reasons to
    cause all that trouble .

    Regards,
    --
    Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de

  12. Re: For sid users: An overview of the KDE C++ ABI transition

    On Saturday 17 September 2005 01:51, Alejandro Exojo wrote:
    > El Viernes, 16 de Septiembre de 2005 22:50, Kevin Krammer escribi├│:
    > > On Tuesday 09 August 2005 23:31, Adeodato Sim├│ wrote:
    > >
    > > [snip]
    > >
    > > > ┬* ┬* In my opinion, the best you can do is to ignore KDE updates in sid
    > > > ┬* ┬* until we get back to you on this list and say, "hey, itseems KDE
    > > > is in a mostly useable state now, with these gotchas". To achieve this,

    > >
    > > Have we reached that state or do you recommend waiting a bit more?

    >
    > I think it depends on the packages you have installed.
    >
    > In my case, I'm waiting for kdevelop3 (uploaded recently), but if you have
    > installed, for example, koffice, you will have to wait a bit more.
    >
    > If you don't care removing some of your packages, and installing them again
    > when they are transitioned, should be OK.


    Ok, thank you for the update and of course for your awesome work in packaging
    KDE!

    I guess I will follow Martin's suggestion of keeping the removed programs for
    later referral.

    Any guess when KOffice will be available again?

    Cheers,
    Kevin

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