Re: NEVER USE SORBS - Debian

This is a discussion on Re: NEVER USE SORBS - Debian ; On Thu, 27 Jul 2006 23:07:42 -0600, Michael Loftis wrote: >That's just it, if you're forwarding for a customer, then you'd be >forwarding the envelope right now with a MAIL FROM of say @stev.org, so if >you were mailing one ...

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Thread: Re: NEVER USE SORBS

  1. Re: SPF was Re: never use sorbs

    On Thu, 27 Jul 2006 23:07:42 -0600, Michael Loftis
    wrote:

    >That's just it, if you're forwarding for a customer, then you'd be
    >forwarding the envelope right now with a MAIL FROM of say @stev.org, so if
    >you were mailing one of our customers, and they asked us to forward mailto
    >a server who implemented SPF, and you had an SPF record, *YOU* would have
    >to figure out an publish *OUR* MXers.


    To overcome that, any mail server operator who does any forwarding is
    expected to implement SRS. And that's the catch; SRS is a mess people
    don't want to deal with.

    The result is, many join the crowd and publish an SPF record, but
    don't actually use SPF for anything. If that trend continues, SPF is
    as good as dead.

    I asked fastmail.fm whether I could forward to them in the traditional
    (non-SRS) way, and they said go ahead, they don't use SPF for blocking
    mail.

    For anyone wanting to receive traditional forwarding, SPF is poison.

  2. Re: NEVER USE SORBS

    Matus UHLAR - fantomas wrote:
    > On 28.07.06 13:12, Marek Podmaka wrote:
    >> Looks like you both didn't understand me... I don't compare listing to a
    >> murder. I compare SORBS saying my IP is a dynamic one to me saying you are
    >> murderer (or whatever I choose to tell about you - and publish it - just as
    >> the list is published). I'm talking about presumption of innocence - if you
    >> claim something, I don't have to prove it is not true, it is you who has to
    >> prove that it is true.

    >
    > You are dirty, staying in front of my door, with a gun in your hand.
    > I don't trust you. I don't have to proove you are not a murderer - If you
    > want talk to me, proove you are not. I won't kill you if you don't, I just
    > won't talk to you. The decision is up to you now.
    >
    > Wash yourself and show me it's airsoft weapon, or go away and don't tell me
    > anything about presumptions...
    >



    Listen, freckle face.. you are a nerd. Ey, you look to me like you are a
    nerd.. so you are. And those glasses on the table would make you look
    like a terrific four eyed geek with no life.

    Oh.. you do have a life with intressting friends, and a hobby that has
    nothing to do with IT? Don't believe you.. but ey, great.. show it.. and
    let me be the judge of you life that's gonna suck anyway.. so get back
    when you think you know when presumptions are in order.

    Is that the way you want to take a stand?


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  3. Re: NEVER USE SORBS

    On Friday 28 July 2006 04:34, Wojciech Ziniewicz wrote:
    > 2006/7/28, Andrew Miehs :
    > > PLEASE STOP THIS.
    > >
    > > People - all of you posting to this topic - STOP IT PLEASE.
    > >
    > > I, and I assume most other people on this list have had enough of it.
    > >
    > > Can you please discuss this somewhere else.
    > >
    > > I actually found this mailing list better than debian-user, but maybe
    > > I should switch if this sort of bickering continues.
    > >
    > >
    > > Thanks for listening,
    > >
    > > Regards

    >
    > You're absolutly right,
    > Everyday I wake up in the morning and see this ****ing "SORBS SORBS
    > SORBS ....."


    I don't know why y'all have jobs at ISPs if you don't know what "kill thread"
    does...

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  4. what is SWIPed ?

    Michael Loftis wrote:
    >Once SORBS was informed by the point of contact for the
    >/12 (there is no /21, it's not been SWIPed) the truth
    >of the matter they corrected their listing.


    What is SWIPed?



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  5. I invoke Goodwin's Law (was Re: NEVER USE SORBS)

    Craig Sanders wrote:
    [snip]

    > more shrill hyperbole. the consequences of a murder conviction are far
    > more severe than the consequences of a DUL listing. comparing one to the
    > other is bogus (in your favour, though...at least you didn't make a lame
    > comparison to nazi germany).


    It's a shame really, I was rooting for the pro-SORBs side.
    Unfortunately, Goodwin's Law is very clear. This thread is ended and the
    anti-SORBs side wins. (sigh)

    http://www.faqs.org/faqs/usenet/legends/godwin/


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  6. Re: what is SWIPed ?

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    I think you mean SWIP, which is a way to make an ip address/range look
    like its someone elses through ARIN.

    So, if you are an ISP and you give your client a /24 then you should
    SWIP the block so the clients name shows up and not yours. This is
    extremely helpful when fighting spam and stuff.

    Dan MacNeil wrote:
    > Michael Loftis wrote:
    >>Once SORBS was informed by the point of contact for the
    >>/12 (there is no /21, it's not been SWIPed) the truth
    >>of the matter they corrected their listing.

    >
    > What is SWIPed?
    >
    >
    >


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    949-916-4444 x.203
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  7. Re: what is SWIPed ?

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    Here is a good explanation:

    http://www.sat-tel.com/Swip.html

    Extract:

    Shared WHOIS Project (SWIP):
    Updating Internet Protocol (IP) Address Space Information in the
    WHOIS Database
    - -------------------------------

    SWIP is the process that Internet Service Providers (ISPs) use to
    submit customer IP space reassignment information to WHOIS. The
    purpose of SWIP is to ensure effective, efficient maintenance of
    records on IP address space.

    Regards

    Andrew


    On 28/07/2006, at 6:23 PM, Dan MacNeil wrote:

    > Michael Loftis wrote:
    > >Once SORBS was informed by the point of contact for the
    > >/12 (there is no /21, it's not been SWIPed) the truth
    > >of the matter they corrected their listing.

    >
    > What is SWIPed?
    >


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  8. RE: SPF was Re: never use sorbs



    --On July 28, 2006 12:04:56 PM +0100 james wrote:


    > I understand the above ok. But what the problem with the server that
    > handles the initial MX records doing the spf filtering and the end server
    > configured in such a way that it understand not todo SPF filter from that
    > forwarding server after all its running you mail which in my words your
    > already "trusting" it. IT does increase the configuration overheads
    > slightly.


    You assume that they control this other mail server receiving their mail,
    they don't. Further we have thousands of customers per MXer, and not all
    of them probably would fit that 'trust' label anyway. Many of our
    customers forward to commercial services like GMail, Hotmail, AOL, and
    Earthlink. They're not going to maintain such silly configurations for
    their customers, neither will I. It would be completely broken and
    un-maintainable, customers have this habit of not informing you when they
    move domains or change their configurations. Heck enough of a percentage
    of people don't even understand that you ask for service to be cancelled,
    they just start swinging chargebacks at us.

    > I guess the same also exists for multiple MX sites when the backup server
    > send mail to the primary MX server.


    Very few places have 'normal' backup MXes anymore, the backup must have the
    same policies, and user lists as the primary, or it's a SPAM vector.
    Nowadays all MXes have to be under the same administrative control to work
    correctly without opening up a SPAM and/or open relay to you.


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  9. Re: SPF was Re: never use sorbs



    --On July 28, 2006 9:30:45 AM -0400 John Kelly wrote:

    > On Thu, 27 Jul 2006 23:07:42 -0600, Michael Loftis
    > wrote:
    >
    >> That's just it, if you're forwarding for a customer, then you'd be
    >> forwarding the envelope right now with a MAIL FROM of say @stev.org, so
    >> if you were mailing one of our customers, and they asked us to forward
    >> mail to a server who implemented SPF, and you had an SPF record, *YOU*
    >> would have to figure out an publish *OUR* MXers.

    <...>
    > For anyone wanting to receive traditional forwarding, SPF is poison.


    Yup, hence, broken


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  10. Re: what is SWIPed ?



    --On July 28, 2006 12:23:15 PM -0400 Dan MacNeil wrote:

    > Michael Loftis wrote:
    > >Once SORBS was informed by the point of contact for the
    > >/12 (there is no /21, it's not been SWIPed) the truth
    > >of the matter they corrected their listing.

    >
    > What is SWIPed?
    >


    SWIP stands for Shared WHOIS Project. Int he verb usage which you get with
    networking folks it means that the actual 'owner' of a larger netblock (the
    receiver of the allocation) has made a note of the assignee of the netblock
    in WHOIS....This tells you more specifically who is the contact for a block
    of (usually NON-PORTABLE) addresses. IE if you do a whois for one of our
    shared colo spaces say 204.11.244.17

    If you're on your shell and have the whois client installed:

    dhcp-2-206:~ mloftis$ whois 204.11.244.17
    Modwest, Inc. MODWEST-HOSTING-1 (NET-204-11-244-0-1)
    204.11.244.0 - 204.11.247.255
    Modwest, Inc. Colocation MODWEST-COLO5-11-3 (NET-204-11-244-16-1)
    204.11.244.16 - 204.11.244.31

    # ARIN WHOIS database, last updated 2006-07-27 19:10
    # Enter ? for additional hints on searching ARIN's WHOIS database.


    If you ask for the specific NET record at whois.arin.net:

    dhcp-2-206:~ mloftis$ whois -h whois.arin.net NET-204-11-244-16-1

    CustName: Modwest, Inc. Colocation
    Address: 110 E. Broadway St. Ste. 301
    City: Missoula
    StateProv: MT
    PostalCode: 59802
    Country: US
    RegDate: 2005-04-13
    Updated: 2005-04-13

    NetRange: 204.11.244.16 - 204.11.244.31
    CIDR: 204.11.244.16/28
    NetName: MODWEST-COLO5-11-3
    NetHandle: NET-204-11-244-16-1
    Parent: NET-204-11-244-0-1
    NetType: Reassigned
    Comment: ADDRESSES WITHIN THIS NETBLOCK ARE NON-PORTABLE
    .........


    This is a self-SWIP to indicate we're using this particular space (well
    we're assigning individual /32's out of it.) Anything /28 or less should
    be published in SWIP. Strictly speaking you don't have to publish
    self-SWIPs like we do but it helps us keep track of things.

    Some of our larger colo customers, those with enough network addresses of
    their own receive a partial or simple SWIP unless they ask otherwise. It
    basically puts them down as the one who is using the netblock but uses all
    the contact information from our enclosing org information since they're
    often not capable (and not even necessarily trusted) to be the contact for
    abuse matters and the like. We do a lot of dedicated hosting.

    Hope this clears that question up. Basically by publishing in SWIP I (as
    an ISP who has my own ARIN issued IP space) can delegate authority for a
    netblock, without giving that netblock away.



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  11. Re: what is SWIPed ?

    Michael Loftis wrote:
    > This is a self-SWIP to indicate we're using this particular space (well
    > we're assigning individual /32's out of it.) Anything /28 or less


    /29 or less, actually. According to ARIN policy. (Being buried in
    trying to properly automate some of the IP block labelling via rWHOIS
    right now...)

    > should be published in SWIP. Strictly speaking you don't have to
    > publish self-SWIPs like we do but it helps us keep track of things.


    Mmmh. It helps ARIN decide somewhat more quickly whether to give you
    more IP space if you publish "complete" data on what your various
    netblocks are used for.

    -kgd


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  12. Re: NEVER USE SORBS

    Wojciech Ziniewicz wrote:
    > 2006/7/28, Andrew Miehs :
    >> PLEASE STOP THIS.
    >>
    >> People - all of you posting to this topic - STOP IT PLEASE.
    >>
    >> I, and I assume most other people on this list have had enough of it.
    >>
    >> Can you please discuss this somewhere else.
    >>
    >> I actually found this mailing list better than debian-user, but maybe
    >> I should switch if this sort of bickering continues.
    >>
    >>
    >> Thanks for listening,
    >>
    >> Regards

    >
    > You're absolutly right,
    > Everyday I wake up in the morning and see this ****ing "SORBS SORBS
    > SORBS ....."


    Me too, I'm fed up with that. When you can bare reading a bit of it you
    see that people are yelling at each other on a silly topic. You have all
    wrote your point, it differs, that's it.

    There is no reason to write more than 200 messages about it, there are
    topics we would like to discuss. I like to read this ML to learn from
    others, I did many times, and I like when I can give a hand when I can,
    but the noise makes it now a bit difficult.

    Thomas


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  13. Re: NEVER USE SORBS

    On Friday 28 July 2006 18:04, Thomas Goirand wrote:
    > Wojciech Ziniewicz wrote:
    > > 2006/7/28, Andrew Miehs :
    > >> People - all of you posting to this topic - STOP IT PLEASE.

    > > You're absolutly right,

    > Me too, I'm fed up with that.


    While I believe the negative value of SORBS has been clearly
    demonstrated - perhaps as much by the force of Mr Sander's
    charisma as by the recollections of those who have been
    stung by SORBS - I fail to see why three debian-isps feel
    that they need to berate the list rather than simply
    filtering the thread.

    This isn't debian-users.

    --Mike Bird


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  14. Re: I invoke Goodwin's Law (was Re: NEVER USE SORBS)

    On Friday 28 July 2006 09:33, Dan MacNeil wrote:
    > Craig Sanders wrote:
    > [snip]
    >
    > > more shrill hyperbole. the consequences of a murder conviction are far
    > > more severe than the consequences of a DUL listing. comparing one to the
    > > other is bogus (in your favour, though...at least you didn't make a lame
    > > comparison to nazi germany).

    >
    > It's a shame really, I was rooting for the pro-SORBs side.
    > Unfortunately, Goodwin's Law is very clear. This thread is ended and the
    > anti-SORBs side wins. (sigh)


    Godwin's Law cannot be deliberately invoked, either, though, so game on. )

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  15. Re: NEVER USE SORBS

    On Fri, Jul 28, 2006 at 01:36:29PM -0700, Mike Bird wrote:
    > > > 2006/7/28, Andrew Miehs :
    > > >> People - all of you posting to this topic - STOP IT PLEASE.

    > While I believe the negative value of SORBS has been clearly
    > demonstrated - perhaps as much by the force of Mr Sander's
    > charisma as by the recollections of those who have been
    > stung by SORBS - I fail to see why three debian-isps feel
    > that they need to berate the list rather than simply
    > filtering the thread.
    >
    > This isn't debian-users.


    I wish to apologize people both for having myself contributed to this thread
    staying alive too long and also if I have flamed people.

    This topic has gone beyond Sorbs DUHL. When people find it impossible to
    continue to debate the verifiable technical issues as such without talking
    about shared elevator space and murderers (with flames), then it is time to
    stop.

    After all, this is debian-isp, not debian-user, and I would (as others)
    appreciate if this lists continued to be a good technical forum about
    technical issues at real ISP's and not a political discussion club. Nothing
    good will come from this public discussion anymore. End-user-filtering is
    not a way to stop this list's degradiation.

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  16. Re: NEVER USE SORBS

    On Thu, 27 Jul 2006, Matus UHLAR - fantomas wrote:
    > On 27.07.06 15:03, Peter Klavins wrote:
    > > AUD a month flat. I got the business level ADSL instead of the consumer
    > > level ADSL precisely because it offered a static IP address, that indeed
    > > has not changed in all the years that I have had the service, regardless
    > > of reboots. But, importantly, it is assigned by DHCP, presumably for
    > > the convenience of the customer in not having to be a master at
    > > configuring their network equipment, just simply plug in and follow the
    > > standard instructions on the consumer-level ADSL modem.
    > > does 217-133-15-nnn.b2b.tiscali.it say as an IP address to you?).

    > He's saying, that if address is dynamically assigned, it is (will be) listed
    > in dynamic address lists (SORBS, NJABL and MAPS do have such lists) and
    > remote mailservers will often refuse getting mail from you.


    b2b.tiscali.it has all static addresses. DHCP assignation is just for
    convenience. in the contract they give you also the address that is
    assigned to you. it is up to you to set statically that address on your
    terminal or get the same via DHCP.

    > Also, if you will try to receive mail at dynamic address, your link may
    > break, the address can be assigned to someone else, and if there will be
    > running SMTP server, it will probably reject mail for your domain, send
    > notices about non-existing address(es) or someone else may get to the mail
    > and read it.
    >
    > Why don't you ask your ISP for statically assigned address, if you want to
    > send/receive mail there? They will probably give you IP from another pool
    > that is not listed in such lists and you won't have any of problems
    > mentioned above.
    >
    > --
    > Matus UHLAR - fantomas, uhlar@fantomas.sk ; http://www.fantomas.sk/
    > Warning: I wish NOT to receive e-mail advertising to this address.
    > Varovanie: na tuto adresu chcem NEDOSTAVAT akukolvek reklamnu postu.
    > I just got lost in thought. It was unfamiliar territory.
    >
    >
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    >



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  17. Dynamic Address Lists [WAS: Re: NEVER USE SORBS]


    On 30/07/2006, at 4:41 PM, Leonardo Boselli wrote:


    >> He's saying, that if address is dynamically assigned, it is (will
    >> be) listed
    >> in dynamic address lists (SORBS, NJABL and MAPS do have such
    >> lists) and
    >> remote mailservers will often refuse getting mail from you.

    >
    > b2b.tiscali.it has all static addresses. DHCP assignation is just for
    > convenience. in the contract they give you also the address that is
    > assigned to you. it is up to you to set statically that address on
    > your
    > terminal or get the same via DHCP.


    To make life a lot easier for you, just get your provider to enter
    YOUR details into the whois database - be that ARIN or RIPE, etc, for
    the netblock that they have assigned to you.

    Where do these 'organisations' find out which blocks are dynamic
    anyway? - I didn't know there was a field anywhere in the whois
    records for that :-)....


    Regards

    Andrew


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