OT: sorbs blacklisting scam - Debian

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Thread: OT: sorbs blacklisting scam

  1. OT: sorbs blacklisting scam

    Hi

    for a week or so we have been trying to get in touch with the people from
    sorbs blacklist. I wonder does anyone else have experience with dealing with
    them? I know that originally they were running a proper dnsrbl service (if
    you like that kind of stuff) but now it seems they have decided to get
    commercial. You donate to some shady legal defence fund for each spam but
    they can blacklist you at any time again. Worst, I have checked for the email
    that got caught in the spamtrap and it's a bounce back from a forged from
    spam, therefore implying we should just drop emails rather than bouncing.
    Am a bit puzzled.
    Any advice appreciated.

    mimo


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  2. Re: OT: sorbs blacklisting scam

    On Thu, Apr 20, 2006 at 04:31:31PM +0100, mimo wrote:
    > for a week or so we have been trying to get in touch with the people from
    > sorbs blacklist. I wonder does anyone else have experience with dealing with
    > them? I know that originally they were running a proper dnsrbl service (if
    > you like that kind of stuff) but now it seems they have decided to get
    > commercial. You donate to some shady legal defence fund for each spam but
    > they can blacklist you at any time again.


    It really depends on which of the SORBS DNSBLs you are on, since
    they all have differwent criteria and policies. what is the IP in
    question?

    > Worst, I have checked for the email
    > that got caught in the spamtrap and it's a bounce back from a forged from
    > spam,


    Sounds like a listing error then, so you would hope they would
    remove it once notified of their mistake.

    > therefore implying we should just drop emails rather than bouncing.


    Certainly it would be preferable to properly reject email that you
    do not wish to accept during the SMTP conversation.

    Once you have accepted it if you later decide you don't want it then
    yes you must generate a bounce, which can lead to problems like this
    not to mention bombarding innocent people with bounces to spam they
    never sent.

    However I wouldn't go as far as to say that bounced spam is spam
    therefore you are a spammer and should be blacklisted.

    --
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  3. Re: OT: sorbs blacklisting scam

    On Thu, 2006-04-20 at 08:31, mimo wrote:
    > for a week or so we have been trying to get in touch with the people from
    > sorbs blacklist. I wonder does anyone else have experience with dealing with
    > them? I know that originally they were running a proper dnsrbl service (if
    > you like that kind of stuff) but now it seems they have decided to get
    > commercial. You donate to some shady legal defence fund for each spam but
    > they can blacklist you at any time again. Worst, I have checked for the email
    > that got caught in the spamtrap and it's a bounce back from a forged from
    > spam, therefore implying we should just drop emails rather than bouncing.
    > Am a bit puzzled.
    > Any advice appreciated.


    Yes, SORBS is a scam. We were blacklisted because we rejected
    a spam which had been forged to look like it came from one of
    their honeypot addresses. They wanted $50 to remove us from
    their RBL.

    Hardly anybody uses SORBS anymore so we only had about one
    complaint per month of undeliverable mail. We dealt with
    most of these by asking the ISP which was still using SORBS
    to check out SORBS blackmail policies. All but one dropped
    SORBS. After several months, one of our customers actually
    convinced SORBS to remove us from their RBL (at no charge).
    I don't know how.

    SORBS doesn't properly filter or check their listings. It's
    a scam and probably criminal.

    --Mike Bird


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  4. Re: OT: sorbs blacklisting scam

    On Thu, 2006-04-20 at 15:37 +0000, Andy Smith wrote:
    > It really depends on which of the SORBS DNSBLs you are on, since
    > they all have differwent criteria and policies.


    Which RBLs would you recommend, should someone want to use it?

    Thanks
    Hans



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  5. Re: OT: sorbs blacklisting scam

    On Thu, Apr 20, 2006 at 06:19:21PM +0200, Hans du Plooy wrote:
    > On Thu, 2006-04-20 at 15:37 +0000, Andy Smith wrote:
    > > It really depends on which of the SORBS DNSBLs you are on, since
    > > they all have differwent criteria and policies.

    >
    > Which RBLs would you recommend, should someone want to use it?


    Of the SORBS ones I only use the DUL to reject at SMTP time. Others
    are used by SpamAssassin's scoring (whatever the default settings of
    SA are).

    But I am considering removing it or using it only to greylist not
    reject, as I've recently become aware of their policy of not
    removing entries which have a low TTL on the DNS PTR record. I'm
    not sure I agree with it.

    I have not seen SORBS ignore or bend their own published policies,
    so it is a matter of whether you agree with them or not. I would be
    interested to know of concrete (i.e. still listed) examples of
    listings made not in conformance to their own policies.

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  6. Re: OT: sorbs blacklisting scam

    On Friday 21 April 2006 00:19, Hans du Plooy wrote:
    > On Thu, 2006-04-20 at 15:37 +0000, Andy Smith wrote:
    > > It really depends on which of the SORBS DNSBLs you are on, since
    > > they all have differwent criteria and policies.

    >
    > Which RBLs would you recommend, should someone want to use it?
    >
    > Thanks
    > Hans


    Here we use the following. We have never had an issue with SORBS. We dont use
    the duhl list from sorbs, only the spam, proxies and socks lists.

    SORBS
    Spamcop
    ORDB
    Spamhaus
    dsbl
    njabl

    and our own internal list which we use for large netblocks.

    Shane


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  7. Re: OT: sorbs blacklisting scam

    What timing! I just set up a vps last month, and just found out the ip I
    was assigned is on the SORBS block list. When I looked it up in their
    database, their last seen date was 2004. Their policies state that they
    won't unblock you without payment if you were assigned a blocked ip
    address from your upstream provider (still waiting to hear from them). I
    agree their policies sound very suspicious.

    The only blocklist I use is the spamhaus list. They are very reliable.
    The only problems I ever ran into were cases that were traced back to a
    customer's virus infected computer. Getting them delisted was simple,
    once they cleaned up the virus problem.

    Peter A. Dumpert
    Innovative Computer Services, LLC
    The Diamond Standard of Internet Business
    P: 732-683-0092 x 102 F: 732-577-9390
    http://innovativebusiness.net/



    Shane Chrisp wrote:
    > On Friday 21 April 2006 00:19, Hans du Plooy wrote:
    >
    >> On Thu, 2006-04-20 at 15:37 +0000, Andy Smith wrote:
    >>
    >>> It really depends on which of the SORBS DNSBLs you are on, since
    >>> they all have differwent criteria and policies.
    >>>

    >> Which RBLs would you recommend, should someone want to use it?
    >>
    >> Thanks
    >> Hans
    >>

    >
    > Here we use the following. We have never had an issue with SORBS. We dont use
    > the duhl list from sorbs, only the spam, proxies and socks lists.
    >
    > SORBS
    > Spamcop
    > ORDB
    > Spamhaus
    > dsbl
    > njabl
    >
    > and our own internal list which we use for large netblocks.
    >
    > Shane
    >
    >
    >



  8. Re: OT: sorbs blacklisting scam

    Hi mimo,

    Am 2006-04-20 16:31:31, schrieb mimo:
    > Hi
    >
    > for a week or so we have been trying to get in touch with the people from
    > sorbs blacklist. I wonder does anyone else have experience with dealing with
    > them? I know that originally they were running a proper dnsrbl service (if
    > you like that kind of stuff) but now it seems they have decided to get
    > commercial. You donate to some shady legal defence fund for each spam but
    > they can blacklist you at any time again. Worst, I have checked for the email


    Since 1999-12 I have an OC-3 in Paris and a /24 Block. I have
    8 Domains but NO Mailserver. I use only ssmtp to get mail out
    of the systems, which are highly protected, because I am working
    for the french ministary of defense. (I am PMC)

    Last year was the first time I have installed courier on a new
    Server and... I was blocked from the first E-mail on by
    The have told me my Server/IP is spaming and I MUST pay to become
    delisted...

    I have consulted an international Lawer to file a Lawsuit against
    Sorbs, because they block whatever they want without confirmation.

    Note: had used sorbs to and I am on there mailinglists
    since many years... On day I had to contact another $USER on
    the List to contact the ISC-Admins to stop the bull**** with
    Sorbs... Now I can post again.

    I think, Enterprises like Sorbs should kicked out of there business"

    Greetings
    Michelle Konzack


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  9. Re: OT: sorbs blacklisting scam

    Am 2006-04-20 08:57:29, schrieb Mike Bird:

    > Yes, SORBS is a scam. We were blacklisted because we rejected
    > a spam which had been forged to look like it came from one of
    > their honeypot addresses. They wanted $50 to remove us from
    > their RBL.
    >
    > Hardly anybody uses SORBS anymore so we only had about one
    > complaint per month of undeliverable mail. We dealt with
    > most of these by asking the ISP which was still using SORBS
    > to check out SORBS blackmail policies. All but one dropped
    > SORBS. After several months, one of our customers actually
    > convinced SORBS to remove us from their RBL (at no charge).
    > I don't know how.


    Maybe a good Lawer?
    I have engaged one last year to regulate my very similar problem.

    > SORBS doesn't properly filter or check their listings. It's
    > a scam and probably criminal.


    FullACK

    Greetings
    Michelle Konzack


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  10. Re: OT: sorbs blacklisting scam

    On Tuesday 25 April 2006 05:33, Michelle Konzack wrote:

    > I think, Enterprises like Sorbs should kicked out of there business"


    Thats an interesting remark considering that SORBS is not a business. Its
    totally run by volunteers and they dont charge anyone.

    They ask for a verifiable donation to be made to a charity organisation.

    My dealings with SORBS as well as always been ammicable. I think a lot might
    have to do with the approach you take towards getting the listings dealt
    with.

    My 2 cents worth.

    Shane


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  11. Re: OT: sorbs blacklisting scam

    On Mon, Apr 24, 2006 at 11:33:31PM +0200, Michelle Konzack wrote:
    > I have consulted an international Lawer to file a Lawsuit against
    > Sorbs, because they block whatever they want without confirmation.


    I do not think Sorbs blocks any email whatsoever that is not sent to their
    own servers. I would expect that they are very much capable of defending
    against your claims by pointing out this.

    Are you sure that you are going to use this argument instead of complaining
    that the individual admins use Sorbs to block your mail or complaining that
    Sorbs publishes what you consider false information?

    Also, does Sorbs actually list you or your uplink ISP instead?

    I do not understand what kinds of legal ground you believe you have, but
    then again, I am not a lawyer nor do I understand your local legislation.
    Though, if there were legal grounds, I think spammers would have found them
    by now.

    I use lots of different blocklists (including Sorbs and all of China and
    Korea) and so far no one has been able to present valid legal reasons why I
    would not have the right to do so. If you do find successful arguments,
    please do inform the rest of us.

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  12. Re: OT: sorbs blacklisting scam

    On Wed, 2006-04-26 at 05:48, Shane Chrisp wrote:
    > My dealings with SORBS as well as always been ammicable. I think a lot might
    > have to do with the approach you take towards getting the listings dealt
    > with.


    I think a lot has to do with your .au email address.
    International lawsuits are a lot more expensive than
    a quick injunction.

    domain: SORBS.NET
    owner-name: Sullivan, Matthew
    owner-address: PO Box 5150
    owner-address: 6217
    owner-address: Bruce
    owner-address: Australia Capital
    owner-address: Australia

    * SORBS lists based on rejected spam sent from their own
    honeypot addresses. Reputable RBLs filter.
    * SORBS lists based on a single hit. Reputable RBLs
    list only on multiple hits, so as to avoid disprupting
    email on what make a fluke.
    * SORBS doesn't change their honeypots often enough.

    As a result, anyone can cause any ISP to be listed by
    SORBS, simply by sending a forged spam to the ISP from
    one of SORBS honeypot addresses.

    I have no respect for SORBS. I have no respect for any
    ISP which, having been informed of the above, continues
    to use SORBS. Fortunately, such ISPs are extremely rare.

    There are many useful and respectable RBLs. We currently
    require valid reverse DNS and reject IPs listed in any of:

    bl.spamcop.net
    dnsbl.njabl.org
    sbl-xbl.spamhaus.org
    dev.null.dk
    list.dsbl.org
    relays.ordb.org
    flowgoaway.com

    --Mike Bird


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  13. Re: OT: sorbs blacklisting scam

    On Wed, Apr 26, 2006 at 08:48:17PM +0800, Shane Chrisp wrote:
    > On Tuesday 25 April 2006 05:33, Michelle Konzack wrote:
    >
    > > I think, Enterprises like Sorbs should kicked out of there business"

    >
    > Thats an interesting remark considering that SORBS is not a
    > business. Its totally run by volunteers and they dont charge anyone.
    >
    > They ask for a verifiable donation to be made to a charity
    > organisation.


    true.

    i still dont like their de-listing policy but it's not the
    blackmail/extortion that some disgruntled people like to make out.

    > My dealings with SORBS as well as always been ammicable. I think a
    > lot might have to do with the approach you take towards getting the
    > listings dealt with.


    me too.

    i don't use their RBL (although i do use their excellent dynamic IP
    list) because i strongly disagree with their de-listing policy.

    i don't, however, dispute their right to create and manage their RBL
    using whatever criteria they like...i just exercise my right to not use
    it.

    and, IMO, that's the correct approach - if you dont like it, dont use it
    and convince your correspondents to not use it....but dont blame SORBS
    if your correspondents decide to continue using the SORBS list even
    after they have been informed of any (real or perceived) deficiencies
    in SORBS's policies. SORBS arent blocking your mail, they're just
    publishing a list of IP addresses.

    lawyers and censorship of SORBS is not a good solution and sets an
    extremely dangerous precedent which could be used to harass any RBL -
    they have a right to publish their list, and individual mail server
    operators have the right to chhose to use it or not.

    craig

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  14. Re: OT: sorbs blacklisting scam

    On Fri, Apr 28, 2006 at 12:21:13PM +0100, Neil McGovern wrote:
    > On Thu, Apr 20, 2006 at 04:26:32PM +0000, Andy Smith wrote:
    > > On Thu, Apr 20, 2006 at 06:19:21PM +0200, Hans du Plooy wrote:
    > > > Which RBLs would you recommend, should someone want to use it?

    > >
    > > Of the SORBS ones I only use the DUL to reject at SMTP time. Others
    > > are used by SpamAssassin's scoring (whatever the default settings of
    > > SA are).

    >
    > My colo box recently got caught by this, despite it being a blatently
    > static range. It took SORBS 3 months to remove the range from the
    > blacklist. I really don't reccomend it


    I have to agree and recently changed my policies, as it was brought
    to my attention that SORBS DUL will list IPs whose reverse DNS
    states they are clearly not dynamic, simply because the TTL of the
    PTR record is "too low". If they want that to be their policy then
    fine, but it's way too arbitrary for my liking..

    Cheers,
    Andy

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  15. Re: OT: sorbs blacklisting scam

    On Thu, Apr 20, 2006 at 04:26:32PM +0000, Andy Smith wrote:
    > On Thu, Apr 20, 2006 at 06:19:21PM +0200, Hans du Plooy wrote:
    > > On Thu, 2006-04-20 at 15:37 +0000, Andy Smith wrote:
    > > > It really depends on which of the SORBS DNSBLs you are on, since
    > > > they all have differwent criteria and policies.

    > >
    > > Which RBLs would you recommend, should someone want to use it?

    >
    > Of the SORBS ones I only use the DUL to reject at SMTP time. Others
    > are used by SpamAssassin's scoring (whatever the default settings of
    > SA are).
    >


    My colo box recently got caught by this, despite it being a blatently
    static range. It took SORBS 3 months to remove the range from the
    blacklist. I really don't reccomend it

    Neil
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  16. Re: OT: sorbs blacklisting scam

    Craig Sanders napisaƂ(a):
    > i don't use their RBL (although i do use their excellent dynamic IP
    > list) because i strongly disagree with their de-listing policy.
    >
    > i don't, however, dispute their right to create and manage their RBL
    > using whatever criteria they like...i just exercise my right to not use
    > it.
    >
    > and, IMO, that's the correct approach - if you dont like it, dont use it
    > and convince your correspondents to not use it....but dont blame SORBS
    > if your correspondents decide to continue using the SORBS list even
    > after they have been informed of any (real or perceived) deficiencies
    > in SORBS's policies. SORBS arent blocking your mail, they're just
    > publishing a list of IP addresses.
    >
    > lawyers and censorship of SORBS is not a good solution and sets an
    > extremely dangerous precedent which could be used to harass any RBL -
    > they have a right to publish their list, and individual mail server
    > operators have the right to chhose to use it or not.


    OTOH, "freedom" is not the same as "anarchy". And you can not freely go
    out on the street and shout "Mr. whatever is a fscking thief, he stole
    my 200$" justifying it by "it's the listener's choice whether he likes
    to believe it or not".
    It's not as simple as you want it to be.
    Try to "just make a list" of firms who do this or do that (generaly -
    something wrong), and publish this list on the internet. Unless you have
    strong proof for your acucsations, they'll sue your pants off.


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  17. Re: OT: sorbs blacklisting scam

    On Fri, Apr 28, 2006 at 01:34:37PM +0200, Mariusz Kruk wrote:
    > Try to "just make a list" of firms who do this or do that (generaly -
    > something wrong), and publish this list on the internet. Unless you have
    > strong proof for your acucsations, they'll sue your pants off.


    That is a really odd analogy because Sorbs does not list firms or persons
    (at least not that I know of), they list IP blocks which are relatively easy
    to verify as spam-related.

    This thread is not terribly useful since no one seems to be able to point
    specific cases where Sorbs has listed anyone by mistake against their own
    listing policy. Please people, if you have evidence, why not bring it forth
    instead of only implying that Sorbs is lying?

    The DUL TTL issue is a bit odd, and I do not agree with the limits, but it
    is at least publically documented.

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  18. Re: OT: sorbs blacklisting scam

    Juha-Matti Tapio napisał(a):
    >>Try to "just make a list" of firms who do this or do that (generaly -
    >>something wrong), and publish this list on the internet. Unless you have
    >>strong proof for your acucsations, they'll sue your pants off.

    > That is a really odd analogy because Sorbs does not list firms or persons
    > (at least not that I know of), they list IP blocks which are relatively easy
    > to verify as spam-related.


    This was not an analogy. This was simply an example that you can't
    justify everything by saying that the receiver may choose not to
    use/listen/read/whatever.
    Nothing more.
    I'm not saying sorbs is good or sorbs is bad.


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  19. Re: OT: sorbs blacklisting scam

    On Fri, Apr 28, 2006 at 03:52:04PM +0300, Boris Pavlov wrote:

    > Our users also do not complain, they've get used and they're the best
    > filter ever seen - does not miss a single message w/o single false
    > positive.


    The author of CRM-114 Discriminator found he made more mistakes
    than his filter.



    m


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  20. Re: OT: sorbs blacklisting scam

    Am 2006-04-26 07:25:47, schrieb Mike Bird:

    > I think a lot has to do with your .au email address.


    I think this too...

    > International lawsuits are a lot more expensive than
    > a quick injunction.


    > As a result, anyone can cause any ISP to be listed by
    > SORBS, simply by sending a forged spam to the ISP from
    > one of SORBS honeypot addresses.


    Which happen currently again... The used domain is NOT public
    and for GOV use only. It is not an oprn Relay, since I accept
    only some alowed and known Nets from the french governement.

    > I have no respect for SORBS. I have no respect for any
    > ISP which, having been informed of the above, continues
    > to use SORBS. Fortunately, such ISPs are extremely rare.


    Right.

    > There are many useful and respectable RBLs. We currently
    > require valid reverse DNS and reject IPs listed in any of:
    >
    > bl.spamcop.net
    > dnsbl.njabl.org
    > sbl-xbl.spamhaus.org


    This is one of my prefered because it works like a charm.

    > dev.null.dk
    > list.dsbl.org
    > relays.ordb.org


    This too

    > flowgoaway.com


    Greetings
    Michelle Konzack


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    ##################### Debian GNU/Linux Consultant #####################
    Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886
    50, rue de Soultz MSM LinuxMichi
    0033/3/88452356 67100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com)


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