No mention of german quotes in release-notes yet - Debian

This is a discussion on No mention of german quotes in release-notes yet - Debian ; Hello, (please CC: me on replies, thanks) I pulled the release notes from http://cvs.debian.org/ddp/manuals.sg...oot=debian-doc and could not find a mention of the degraded german quotes on the CLI. As discussed in http://lists.debian.org/debian-doc/2.../msg00046.html and references therin, this should be mentioned in ...

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Thread: No mention of german quotes in release-notes yet

  1. No mention of german quotes in release-notes yet

    Hello,
    (please CC: me on replies, thanks)
    I pulled the release notes from
    http://cvs.debian.org/ddp/manuals.sg...oot=debian-doc

    and could not find a mention of the degraded german quotes on the CLI.
    As discussed in

    http://lists.debian.org/debian-doc/2.../msg00046.html

    and references therin, this should be mentioned in the release notes,
    possibly noting that this is done to follow upstream[1].

    If you want I can write a paragraph. There is a section labeled
    "Detailed Changes to the System" which I think would be perfect for
    this information.

    If you need more information, please ask; but first read the afore
    mentioned references as this topic has been studied intensivly.

    Greetings

    Helge

    [1] The maintainers of glibc have clearly stated that they consider
    this issue post-sarge.

    --
    Helge Kreutzmann, Dipl.-Phys. Helge.Kreutzmann@itp.uni-hannover.de
    gpg signed mail preferred
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  2. Re: No mention of german quotes in release-notes yet

    On Mon, Dec 06, 2004 at 05:41:41PM +0100, Helge Kreutzmann wrote:
    > Hello,
    > (please CC: me on replies, thanks)
    > I pulled the release notes from
    > http://cvs.debian.org/ddp/manuals.sg...oot=debian-doc


    Fixed. Note, there is no current German translation available.

    Cheers,

    Rob
    --
    Rob 'robster' Bradford
    http://robster.org.uk


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  3. Bug#228486: No mention of german quotes in release-notes yet

    At Sat, 11 Dec 2004 14:24:55 +0000,
    Rob Bradford wrote:
    > On Mon, Dec 06, 2004 at 05:41:41PM +0100, Helge Kreutzmann wrote:
    > > Hello,
    > > (please CC: me on replies, thanks)
    > > I pulled the release notes from
    > > http://cvs.debian.org/ddp/manuals.sg...oot=debian-doc

    >
    > Fixed. Note, there is no current German translation available.


    I disagreed to add such description in the release notes. Rob, I'm
    sorry even you already worked it, but I hope you remove it again.
    Could you delete it?

    I think the phrase "use UTF-8" is nice, but I concern the following
    context will become wrong interpretation in future:

    "The locales for German style languages (e.g. de_DE@euro)
    unfortunately use an aesthetically unpleasing way of representing
    open quotation marks."

    I think we have not finished such discussion. Even some German debian
    developers doubt this proposal should be adopted.

    Moreover, I doubt why we need to add this issue to the release note.
    Helge, could you explain in first? It's just _one of technical
    discussions_ in the whole various technical problems. If you request
    to add this appology, I also would like to request adding other
    various glibc related bugs as "apology" (UTF-8 regexp problems,
    localedata non-update, mips xgot/fakeroot breakage, LSB 2.0
    non-conformance, NPTL pthread_create without setschedparam attr, some
    math precisions, and more).

    I also think this modification should be changed at upstream level in
    first, because it's glibc localedata problem, not debian local
    problem. However, _no_ debian guys try to discuss with the glibc
    upstream maintainers. Note that some primary upstream maintainers
    (Ulrich Drepper, et al) can speak German, but they don't agree this
    proposal currently.

    I also concern this issue because this proposal may be rejected in
    future by glibc upstream maintainers. In that case, debian release
    announcement will keep having such wrong description until sarge+1
    release. I, as one of upstream glibc bug db maintainer, think this
    patch is doubtly to apply to the glibc localedata.

    So, I object to add this uncertain issue to the release note. Rob,
    I'm sorry not to reply this request quickly, but I think we should
    remove it from the release announcement.

    Regards,
    -- gotom


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  4. Bug#235759: Bug#228486: No mention of german quotes in release-notes yet

    On Wed, Dec 15, 2004 at 06:19:33PM +0900, GOTO Masanori wrote:
    > At Sat, 11 Dec 2004 14:24:55 +0000,
    > Rob Bradford wrote:
    > > On Mon, Dec 06, 2004 at 05:41:41PM +0100, Helge Kreutzmann wrote:

    > So, I object to add this uncertain issue to the release note. Rob,
    > I'm sorry not to reply this request quickly, but I think we should
    > remove it from the release announcement.


    Yes of course, sorry, I didn't realise this issue was so problematic.
    Please let me know if the situation changes.

    For now I have commented out the section.

    Cheers,

    Rob
    --
    Rob Bradford - http://robster.org.uk


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  5. Bug#235759: Bug#228486: No mention of german quotes in release-notes yet

    Hello,
    (CC:ed Project Leader to help resolve this issue)
    On Wed, Dec 15, 2004 at 06:19:33PM +0900, GOTO Masanori wrote:
    > At Sat, 11 Dec 2004 14:24:55 +0000,
    > Rob Bradford wrote:
    > > On Mon, Dec 06, 2004 at 05:41:41PM +0100, Helge Kreutzmann wrote:
    > > > Hello,
    > > > (please CC: me on replies, thanks)
    > > > I pulled the release notes from
    > > > http://cvs.debian.org/ddp/manuals.sg...oot=debian-doc

    > >
    > > Fixed. Note, there is no current German translation available.

    >
    > I disagreed to add such description in the release notes. Rob, I'm
    > sorry even you already worked it, but I hope you remove it again.
    > Could you delete it?
    >
    > I think the phrase "use UTF-8" is nice, but I concern the following
    > context will become wrong interpretation in future:
    >
    > "The locales for German style languages (e.g. de_DE@euro)
    > unfortunately use an aesthetically unpleasing way of representing
    > open quotation marks."
    >
    > I think we have not finished such discussion. Even some German debian
    > developers doubt this proposal should be adopted.


    This was extensivly discussed in the past. The german translation list
    *unanimously* [1] thinks this is correct. I cited the main discussions in
    the request to debian-doc[2,3]. And you stated nearly the same in the end of
    august, where Jens Nachtigal pointed out (with several references)
    that this discussion was done, the the solution was not disputed [4].
    Gerfried Fuchs (Alfie) also stated, that probably every issue has some
    opponents, but he has "never ever [..] seen such a vast majority _for_ the
    change" [5]. Also both bugs regarding this where opened in the beginning
    of the year, and extensivly discussed[6,7].

    > Moreover, I doubt why we need to add this issue to the release note.
    > Helge, could you explain in first? It's just _one of technical
    > discussions_ in the whole various technical problems. If you request
    > to add this appology, I also would like to request adding other
    > various glibc related bugs as "apology" (UTF-8 regexp problems,
    > localedata non-update, mips xgot/fakeroot breakage, LSB 2.0
    > non-conformance, NPTL pthread_create without setschedparam attr, some
    > math precisions, and more).


    I cannot say anything about the bugs you mention. If these are indeed
    serious *regressions* (e.g., I don't think LSB 2.0 and NPTL are
    present in woody), then I assume it part of your responsibility to
    judge their relative importance and get the proper notice (in the
    changelog, in README.Debian, in NEWS, in the installation manual,
    wherever appropriate).

    The ordinary german user coming from woody will see this regression
    in his daily use on the shell. The german translation team would
    have preferred one of the suggested solutions (frech quotes, return
    to the english quotes as of woody), but since you oppose a change,
    the users should at least be informed that this unfortunate change
    has happened.

    > I also think this modification should be changed at upstream level in
    > first, because it's glibc localedata problem, not debian local
    > problem. However, _no_ debian guys try to discuss with the glibc
    > upstream maintainers. Note that some primary upstream maintainers
    > (Ulrich Drepper, et al) can speak German, but they don't agree this
    > proposal currently.


    I agree that a change with upstream would be the best solution. But as
    I understand it, Debian serves its users, and sometimes this implies
    (IMHO) derivation from upstream. I don't know how you handle bugs in
    the packages you maintain, but when I receive a bug report which
    affects upstreams packages as well, I inform upstream about this. Then
    either upstream agrees, and everything is fine, or upstream disagrees,
    then I have to decide what is best for my users. This is not something
    I need more than 3/4 of a year for to decide.

    > I also concern this issue because this proposal may be rejected in
    > future by glibc upstream maintainers. In that case, debian release
    > announcement will keep having such wrong description until sarge+1
    > release. I, as one of upstream glibc bug db maintainer, think this
    > patch is doubtly to apply to the glibc localedata.


    Why? People coming from Sarge to Etch (=Sarge+1) will already know the
    change, and will have acted appropriately. This note is only required
    for Sarge. Any change from the current behavior will be an
    improvement, hence no note is required.

    I don't know how intrusive the change back to the woody behavior (or
    to the french quotes) actually is. I also assume, that the glibc has
    dealt with controversial issues in the past already. So as you
    co-maintain upstream glibc bug db, I assumed that you would
    take care of getting this bug resolved (either way) and kept the open
    bugs informed about this. For this case, this is especially easy,
    since patches where posted (and IMHO technically not challenged, but
    maybe I am wrong here), so it is mainly down to a decisions if and how
    the change should occur.

    So, if I understand you correctly, the decision is still in progress.
    Since Sarge is probably released before the bugs can be resolved, and
    if the decision is to keep the current, unesthetical behaviour both
    upstream and in Debian (which would be unfortunate), even then this note
    is IMHO required. Because Debian serves its users, including the
    german ones. And the opinion in favor of a change are so overwhelming,
    way more than for many other changes [5].

    > So, I object to add this uncertain issue to the release note. Rob,
    > I'm sorry not to reply this request quickly, but I think we should
    > remove it from the release announcement.


    I ask for the re-inclusion, being backed up by the german translation
    team, including several developers.

    I CC:ed Martin Michlmayr as he has not participated in the
    discussion so far (hence being neutral) to ask him to help find a
    solution about this note in the release notes.

    Greetings

    Helge


    [1] http://lists.debian.org/debian-l10n-.../msg00172.html
    [2] http://lists.debian.org/debian-doc/2.../msg00046.html
    [3] http://lists.debian.org/debian-relea.../msg00496.html
    [4] http://lists.debian.org/debian-l10n-.../msg00235.html
    [5] http://lists.debian.org/debian-l10n-.../msg00016.html
    [6] http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=228486
    [7] http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=235759


    --
    Helge Kreutzmann, Dipl.-Phys. Helge.Kreutzmann@itp.uni-hannover.de
    gpg signed mail preferred
    64bit GNU powered http://www.itp.uni-hannover.de/~kreutzm
    Help keep free software "libre": http://www.freepatents.org/

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  6. Bug#235759: Bug#228486: No mention of german quotes in release-notes yet

    Hello,
    On Thu, Jan 20, 2005 at 12:38:45AM +0000, Martin Michlmayr wrote:
    > * Helge Kreutzmann [2005-01-03 12:00]:
    > > > So, I object to add this uncertain issue to the release note. Rob,
    > > > I'm sorry not to reply this request quickly, but I think we should
    > > > remove it from the release announcement.

    > >
    > > I ask for the re-inclusion, being backed up by the german translation
    > > team, including several developers.
    > >
    > > I CC:ed Martin Michlmayr as he has not participated in the
    > > discussion so far (hence being neutral) to ask him to help find a
    > > solution about this note in the release notes.

    >
    > I didn't have any plans to join this discussion and I'm not sure what
    > I can add. FWIW, I exclusively use an English locale. Anyway, I've


    maybe I have been imprecise. I did not intend you to offer an opinion
    on the issue itself, but rather help the currently stuck positions get
    unstuck, i.e., moderate between GOTO and this list (or maybe you know
    someone who can moderate).

    > read through the whole bug log now. I personally agree that these
    > quotation marks are quite ugly and I don't see why the release notes
    > shouldn't mention this. However, they should take GOTO Masanori's
    > objections into account. Why cannot the release notes say that the
    > current style in non-UTF8 is ugly and that there is a discussion going
    > on about how they will be presented in the future? I think that would
    > take both sides into account.


    GOTO, if we add something along these lines, would this be acceptable
    to you?

    Greetings

    Helge
    --
    Helge Kreutzmann, Dipl.-Phys. Helge.Kreutzmann@itp.uni-hannover.de
    gpg signed mail preferred
    64bit GNU powered http://www.itp.uni-hannover.de/~kreutzm
    Help keep free software "libre": http://www.freepatents.org/

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