-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

(CC'ing d-boot; however, I propose to keep the discussion on d-doc.)

IMHO a call for translation of the Release Notes is a bit premature.

I have just downloaded the latest English version from [1] with the
intention of starting a Dutch translation.
A quick scan gave me the impression that the main text of the release notes
still refers more to Woody than to Sarge. At the bottom of the mail I have
copied some examples of this.
I seems a shame to start a new translation while a significant part of the
text needs rewriting.

Besides that general point, I have some observations and suggestions.
- - PowerPC will be installed with kernel 2.6.8 by default.
- - The alternative kernel for i386 will be 2.6.8 (not 2.6.7).
- - Have the update instructions been checked for an update from
Woody to Sarge? What package tool is preferred for the upgrade:
apt-get, dselect (don't think so), aptitude?
- - I think something i386 support in Sarge should be mentioned.
- - Would it be possible to split of the lists of old/new/etc. packages
from the main en.sgml file and include the lists only at build time?
This would make things a lot easier for translators.

Note: This mail is not intended to put down the work that has been done on
the RN, it is greatly appreciated. However, I am concerned about the state
of the RN now that the release of Sarge is approaching.

[1] http://cvs.debian.org/ddp/manuals.sg...ease-notes/en/
release-notes.en.sgml?only_with_tag=sarge&cvsroot=debian-doc
(version 1.1.2.9)

Cheers,
FJP


Selection of paragraphs that seem to refer to Woody and not Sarge
================================================== ===============

The 2.2 kernel series has been updated and developed extensively introducing
several valuable changes both in the kernel and in other programs based on
kernel features, along with a whole slew of new hardware drivers and bug
fixes for existing drivers.

A 2.4 kernel is also included in this release for optional installation by
users. Although the 2.4 branch is considered by the kernel developers to be
a stable kernel branch, the &debian; release team judged it not to have
reached sufficient maturity for inclusion as the default kernel in this
release.


The new debootstrap tool downloads, unpacks and extracts
&debian; packages for the base system installation. This is an improvement
over the previous installation system which used a tarball containing the
base system. The installation base system can be updated more dynamically
with this system.


The task system has been revamped. Tasks in the previous release consisted
of meta packages (packages which are simply collections of other packages).
The new system uses special headers within the existing package system to
designate any tasks to which each package may belong.
This allows greater selection of tasks and it is much easier to only install
selected components of tasks, instead of the whole thing.


Kernel images are available in various \"flavors\". These flavors each
support a different set of hardware. The flavors available in &debian;
&release; for &arch-title; are:

speakup flavor>

At install time, the kernel used is &kernelversion;, however a 2.4 kernel,
the latest stable branch is included for those who wish to benefit from it.


The Debian package management tools apt and dpkg have been improved
considerably in this release. Now apt supports \"pinning\" in which the user
can opt to download certain packages from different distributions, e.g.
testing or unstable, while still keeping the bulk of packages in the stable
distribution. APT will automagically download and install appropriate
dependent packages from the advanced distribution as required. An \"&url-apt-pin-howto;\" name='APT \"pinning\" howto'> is available.


This release of &debian; contains the much improved XFree86 4.1 release,
which includes support for a greater range of hardware, better autodetection
support, and improved support for advanced technologies such as Xinerama and
3D acceleration. XFree86 3.3.6 is available as an option, to support older
hardware that is not supported by XFree86 4.1.


For the first time, &debian; includes several full featured free graphical
web browsers in the form of Mozilla, Galeon and Konqueror. With the
inclusion of KDE 2.2 for the first time, as well as the new GNOME 1.4
release, Debian's desktop provision has been radically improved.


The version of m4 in woody does not run on Linux kernels from the 2.0
series. It is therefore strongly recommended that users of sendmail upgrade
to a 2.2 series or better Linux kernel before proceeding with the upgrade.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFBSfH6gm/Kwh6ICoQRAjUTAKCTHUCrwWWG5x0NXHSCMLEE6LYlTQCfUXSY
ZSgVlqnyDTJ1YPZPtT/ayF4=
=7pJK
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

On Thu, Sep 16, 2004 at 10:05:14PM +0200, Frans Pop wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> (CC'ing d-boot; however, I propose to keep the discussion on d-doc.)
>
> IMHO a call for translation of the Release Notes is a bit premature.
>
> I have just downloaded the latest English version from [1] with the
> intention of starting a Dutch translation.
> A quick scan gave me the impression that the main text of the release notes
> still refers more to Woody than to Sarge. At the bottom of the mail I have
> copied some examples of this.
> I seems a shame to start a new translation while a significant part of the
> text needs rewriting.

Oh. Now thats interesting, i made some significant changes to the
release notes. For instance the sections on using dselect and apt-get
were both replaced with a single version documenting aptitude. You'd be
suprised how much of this document goes back to potato and before.

> Besides that general point, I have some observations and suggestions.
> - - PowerPC will be installed with kernel 2.6.8 by default.

No one had been able to give me a straight answer on this. Thanks for
letting me know.

> - - The alternative kernel for i386 will be 2.6.8 (not 2.6.7).

When i checked the package database the other day i thought i only saw
2.6.7 available for testing.

Both the above are now being fixed.

> - - Have the update instructions been checked for an update from
> Woody to Sarge? What package tool is preferred for the upgrade:
> apt-get, dselect (don't think so), aptitude?

Aptitude. See above, i have tested that. However unfortunately some
packages have broken dependencies right now that need to be resolved.

> - - I think something i386 support in Sarge should be mentioned.

Sorry? I dont quite follow what this point is

> - - Would it be possible to split of the lists of old/new/etc. packages
> from the main en.sgml file and include the lists only at build time?
> This would make things a lot easier for translators.

IMHO, I dont really want it in there, but someone did the work to put it
in last time and I spent a helluvalot of time trying to generate that
stuff sensibly this time.

> Note: This mail is not intended to put down the work that has been done on
> the RN, it is greatly appreciated. However, I am concerned about the state
> of the RN now that the release of Sarge is approaching.

My opinion is that getting the document translations updated (and also
available on the website, which i'm trying to get done) will allow many
more eyes to see this.

>
> Selection of paragraphs that seem to refer to Woody and not Sarge
> ================================================== ===============
>
> The 2.2 kernel series has been updated and developed extensively introducing
> several valuable changes both in the kernel and in other programs based on
> kernel features, along with a whole slew of new hardware drivers and bug
> fixes for existing drivers.

I couldnt find that in the sarge branch.

> A 2.4 kernel is also included in this release for optional installation by
> users. Although the 2.4 branch is considered by the kernel developers to be
> a stable kernel branch, the &debian; release team judged it not to have
> reached sufficient maturity for inclusion as the default kernel in this
> release.
>

Nor this

> The new debootstrap tool downloads, unpacks and extracts
> &debian; packages for the base system installation. This is an improvement
> over the previous installation system which used a tarball containing the
> base system. The installation base system can be updated more dynamically
> with this system.
>

Nor this.

> The task system has been revamped. Tasks in the previous release consisted
> of meta packages (packages which are simply collections of other packages).
> The new system uses special headers within the existing package system to
> designate any tasks to which each package may belong.
> This allows greater selection of tasks and it is much easier to only install
> selected components of tasks, instead of the whole thing.
>

Nor this.

> Kernel images are available in various \"flavors\". These flavors each
> support a different set of hardware. The flavors available in &debian;
> &release; for &arch-title; are:
>
> > speakup flavor>

This was updated for i386.

> At install time, the kernel used is &kernelversion;, however a 2.4 kernel,
> the latest stable branch is included for those who wish to benefit from it.
>

Nor this

> The Debian package management tools apt and dpkg have been improved
> considerably in this release. Now apt supports \"pinning\" in which the user
> can opt to download certain packages from different distributions, e.g.
> testing or unstable, while still keeping the bulk of packages in the stable
> distribution. APT will automagically download and install appropriate
> dependent packages from the advanced distribution as required. An > \"&url-apt-pin-howto;\" name='APT \"pinning\" howto'> is available.
>

Nor this.

> This release of &debian; contains the much improved XFree86 4.1 release,
> which includes support for a greater range of hardware, better autodetection
> support, and improved support for advanced technologies such as Xinerama and
> 3D acceleration. XFree86 3.3.6 is available as an option, to support older
> hardware that is not supported by XFree86 4.1.
>

Nor this.

> For the first time, &debian; includes several full featured free graphical
> web browsers in the form of Mozilla, Galeon and Konqueror. With the
> inclusion of KDE 2.2 for the first time, as well as the new GNOME 1.4
> release, Debian's desktop provision has been radically improved.
>

Nor this.

> The version of m4 in woody does not run on Linux kernels from the 2.0
> series. It is therefore strongly recommended that users of sendmail upgrade
> to a 2.2 series or better Linux kernel before proceeding with the upgrade.

Nor this.

Some how you're not looking at the sarge branch there. I followed your
link, and that looked fine but you musnt choose to download HEAD. As
that currently has the woody version.

Cheers,

Rob

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux)
>
> iD8DBQFBSfH6gm/Kwh6ICoQRAjUTAKCTHUCrwWWG5x0NXHSCMLEE6LYlTQCfUXSY
> ZSgVlqnyDTJ1YPZPtT/ayF4=
> =7pJK
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>

--
Rob Bradford - http://robster.org.uk


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-doc-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Thursday 16 September 2004 23:29, Rob Bradford wrote:
> Some how you're not looking at the sarge branch there. I followed your
> link, and that looked fine but you musnt choose to download HEAD. As
> that currently has the woody version.

Hello Rob,

Please allow me to apologize profusely.
/me apologizes profusely

My mail was completely due to me downloading the wrong version somehow. The
weird thing is that it happened to me two times, and I can't figure out
where I went wrong.

Anyway, I've got the correct version now and will happily start translating.

I'm very sorry for the noise.

Frans


> > - - I think something i386 support in Sarge should be mentioned.
>
> Sorry? I dont quite follow what this point is

Again sorry, I now see I didn't write what I intended.
As I understand it, the kernel does not really support the 'original' Intel
386 processor any more, but some kind of emulation has been added so it can
be made to work. I also understand [1] that migration from Woody to Sarge
will not be straightforward because of this.
It could be worthwhile to add a paragraph explaining this and instructions
on how to migrate on a 386 box in the RN.

[1] http://lists.debian.org/debian-relea.../msg00146.html

> > - - Would it be possible to split of the lists of old/new/etc. packages
> > * from the main en.sgml file and include the lists only at build time?
> > * This would make things a lot easier for translators.
>
> IMHO, I dont really want it in there, but someone did the work to put it
> in last time and I spent a helluvalot of time trying to generate that
> stuff sensibly this time.

I did not mean to drop the lists from the Release Notes. Just to not include
them in the release-notes.en.sgml file. As these lists do not need to be
translated, they only distract translators if they are included in the main
document.
It should be possible to put these lists in separate documents (together
with their tags) in the same directory as release-notes.ent,
include a reference to these files in release-notes.en.sgml (and
translations), and have the lists automagically included in the finished
doc at build time.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFBShZdgm/Kwh6ICoQRAhutAJ4jM058p/YItR79tJBJOMw4LAqEigCfdXDo
dO9WgYLvnXOPnLP7GaR6tsc=
=QOvK
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

> Anyway, I've got the correct version now and will happily start translating.


Could you post a note in -i18n also about this RN translation*?

I don't follow -doc, so I'm not sure about the place this document is
(in the Web site CVS or elsechere) but anyway, having this translation
be a priority for i18n teams is very likely (as likely as the
installation manual translation, for sure).





--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-boot-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org

On Thu, Sep 16, 2004 at 10:29:09PM +0100, Rob Bradford wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 16, 2004 at 10:05:14PM +0200, Frans Pop wrote:
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA1
> >
> > (CC'ing d-boot; however, I propose to keep the discussion on d-doc.)
> >
> > IMHO a call for translation of the Release Notes is a bit premature.
> >
> > I have just downloaded the latest English version from [1] with the
> > intention of starting a Dutch translation.
> > A quick scan gave me the impression that the main text of the release notes
> > still refers more to Woody than to Sarge. At the bottom of the mail I have
> > copied some examples of this.
> > I seems a shame to start a new translation while a significant part of the
> > text needs rewriting.
>
> Oh. Now thats interesting, i made some significant changes to the
> release notes. For instance the sections on using dselect and apt-get
> were both replaced with a single version documenting aptitude. You'd be
> suprised how much of this document goes back to potato and before.
>
> > Besides that general point, I have some observations and suggestions.
> > - - PowerPC will be installed with kernel 2.6.8 by default.
>
> No one had been able to give me a straight answer on this. Thanks for
> letting me know.

Bah, you obviously didn't follow this clear enough We switched to 2.6 kernels
by default on powerpc even prior to RC1 i think. Only oldworld miboot floppies
are still problematic. apus is being dropped though, so this should make it in
the Release Notes i think. I believe there where something like 3 users left,
and the kernels in sarge probably didn't work on apus anyway.

Maybe it would be worth mentioning full support for the Pegasos boards, since
this is new previously unsupported hardware ? G5 pmacs and power3/4 hardware
where also not supported by woody, i think.

> > - - The alternative kernel for i386 will be 2.6.8 (not 2.6.7).
>
> When i checked the package database the other day i thought i only saw
> 2.6.7 available for testing.
>
> Both the above are now being fixed.

On all arches, sarge will release with 2.4.27 as a 2.4 kernel and 2.6.8 as a
2.6 kernel on the arches which support it. All will default to 2.4 except
powerpc. There is at least m68k still using 2.2 kernels.

Friendly,

Sven Luther


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-doc-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org

Hmm, shouldn't sarge be on head, not a branch? Anyway, after getting it
checked out I had a read through.

- the speakup images have just been reorganised now, so there are now
two driver disk images, one for CD and one for network installs
- the path to the installation manual on the mirrors has changed from
/dists/sarge/main/disks-i386/current/doc/install.txt to
/dists/sarge/main/installer-i386/current/doc/manual//index.html
(With being en or whatever)
- I think it would be best to avoid the use of the term "componentized"
given what progeny is doing with/to that term. s/componentized/modular/.
- 4.3. says that the recommended upgrade method is dselect with apt,
while 4.4 talks about upgrading with aptitude.

If you're looking for more new features to mention, a few in d-i
include:

- automatic detection of hardware
- support for automated installations by debconf database preseeding
- grub as the default bootloader (i386)
- automatic detection of other operating systems installed on your
computer, and addition of these to the boot menu (i386, powerpc)
- support for resizing fat and vfat filesystems (but not ntfs) (i386)
- DVD images of debian
- localised to xxx languages (see our release announcments for numbers;
I forget how many languages the boot floppies were localised to)

--
see shy jo

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFBSzGAd8HHehbQuO8RAnymAJ9qQQ6zie5PbuXSFb5o/7XJuWr8CACePQ6Q
ExW/eTaYq/JHpVLMAkr2byo=
=KTqz
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Joey Hess wrote:
....
> - localised to xxx languages (see our release announcments for numbers;
> I forget how many languages the boot floppies were localised to)

From this email from Christian Perrier [1] :

"...(of course, besides the languages below, we currently have 40
already supported languages (>50% translation ratio))..."

[1] http://lists.debian.org/debian-i18n/.../msg00026.html


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-doc-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org

Hello,

On Fri, Sep 17, 2004 at 02:48:32PM -0400, Joey Hess wrote:
> Hmm, shouldn't sarge be on head, not a branch? Anyway, after getting it
> checked out I had a read through.
>
> - the speakup images have just been reorganised now, so there are now
> two driver disk images, one for CD and one for network installs
> - the path to the installation manual on the mirrors has changed from
> /dists/sarge/main/disks-i386/current/doc/install.txt to
> /dists/sarge/main/installer-i386/current/doc/manual//index.html
> (With being en or whatever)
> - I think it would be best to avoid the use of the term "componentized"
> given what progeny is doing with/to that term. s/componentized/modular/.
> - 4.3. says that the recommended upgrade method is dselect with apt,
> while 4.4 talks about upgrading with aptitude.
>
> If you're looking for more new features to mention, a few in d-i
> include:
>
> - automatic detection of hardware
> - support for automated installations by debconf database preseeding
> - grub as the default bootloader (i386)
> - automatic detection of other operating systems installed on your
> computer, and addition of these to the boot menu (i386, powerpc)
> - support for resizing fat and vfat filesystems (but not ntfs) (i386)
> - DVD images of debian
> - localised to xxx languages (see our release announcments for numbers;
> I forget how many languages the boot floppies were localised to)

Also, worth of mentioning is :

- support for RAID and LVM in the installer

This one is a huge advance from boot-floppies and lots of people were
asking for this.

--
++----------------------------------------------------------------------++
|| André Luís Lopes andrelop@debian.org ||
|| http://people.debian.org/~andrelop ||
|| Debian-BR Project http://www.debian-br.org ||
|| Public GPG KeyID 9D1B82F6 ||

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFBS2U/W4/i9Z0bgvYRAjgWAJ96Qig3WNfArxVtaT1nRCrBDs04rgCeIcFp
QQ4OfIQkdWzAu1kclbV9GLU=
=mEIk
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

On Fri, Sep 17, 2004 at 02:48:32PM -0400, Joey Hess wrote:
> Hmm, shouldn't sarge be on head, not a branch? Anyway, after getting it
> checked out I had a read through.

I'm currently waiting for the script that produces the release notes for
the website to be changed to use the woody branch, rather than head.
Once that has happened i'll merge these down to head, removing the
branch.

I'll respond to the rest of you email under separate cover, if
necessary.

Cheers,

Rob
--
Rob Bradford - http://robster.org.uk


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-doc-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org