Re: Bug#427297: ITP: sturmbahnfahrer -- simulated obstacle course for automobiles - Debian

This is a discussion on Re: Bug#427297: ITP: sturmbahnfahrer -- simulated obstacle course for automobiles - Debian ; Hi > On Sun, 2007-06-03 at 12:49 +0200, Andreas Tille wrote: >> I'm not really picky about names and would be quite relaxed if the >> official >> homepage http://www.sturmbahnfahrer.com/ would not support the suspicion >> by using a font ...

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Thread: Re: Bug#427297: ITP: sturmbahnfahrer -- simulated obstacle course for automobiles

  1. Re: Bug#427297: ITP: sturmbahnfahrer -- simulated obstacle course for automobiles

    Hi

    > On Sun, 2007-06-03 at 12:49 +0200, Andreas Tille wrote:
    >> I'm not really picky about names and would be quite relaxed if the
    >> official
    >> homepage http://www.sturmbahnfahrer.com/ would not support the suspicion
    >> by using a font that at least supports the ill feeling. So even if I
    >> don't
    >> want to spekulate about lawyers opinions - it seems to show at least bad
    >> taste of the authors.

    > Isn't this just a standard blackletter font?

    Apart from that gothic fonts were forbidden by law in 1941 and replaced by
    latin type of lettering. So the feeling is really nothing more than a
    feeling in this case.


    Regards, Alexander

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  2. Re: Bug#427297: ITP: sturmbahnfahrer -- simulated obstacle course for automobiles

    2007/6/4, Alexander Reelsen :
    >
    > Hi
    >
    > > On Sun, 2007-06-03 at 12:49 +0200, Andreas Tille wrote:
    > >> I'm not really picky about names and would be quite relaxed if the
    > >> official
    > >> homepage http://www.sturmbahnfahrer.com/ would not support the

    > suspicion
    > >> by using a font that at least supports the ill feeling. So even if I
    > >> don't
    > >> want to spekulate about lawyers opinions - it seems to show at least

    > bad
    > >> taste of the authors.

    > > Isn't this just a standard blackletter font?

    > Apart from that gothic fonts were forbidden by law in 1941 and replaced by
    > latin type of lettering. So the feeling is really nothing more than a
    > feeling in this case.



    I can't believe that... gothic fonts are forbidden in Germany by law!!!???

    Greetings,
    Miry


  3. Re: Bug#427297: ITP: sturmbahnfahrer -- simulated obstacle course for automobiles

    On Monday 04 June 2007 10:38:45 Miriam Ruiz wrote:
    > 2007/6/4, Alexander Reelsen :
    > > Hi
    > >
    > > > On Sun, 2007-06-03 at 12:49 +0200, Andreas Tille wrote:
    > > >> I'm not really picky about names and would be quite relaxed if the
    > > >> official
    > > >> homepage http://www.sturmbahnfahrer.com/ would not support the

    > >
    > > suspicion
    > >
    > > >> by using a font that at least supports the ill feeling. So even if I
    > > >> don't
    > > >> want to spekulate about lawyers opinions - it seems to show at least

    > >
    > > bad
    > >
    > > >> taste of the authors.
    > > >
    > > > Isn't this just a standard blackletter font?

    > >
    > > Apart from that gothic fonts were forbidden by law in 1941 and replaced
    > > by latin type of lettering. So the feeling is really nothing more than a
    > > feeling in this case.

    >
    > I can't believe that... gothic fonts are forbidden in Germany by law!!!???


    Haha, certainly not in 1941 :/ Geez. This must be referring to some
    non-German juristiction. In Germany, the § 86 of the German
    Strafgesetzbuch, titled "Verbreiten von Propagandamitteln verfassungswidriger
    Organisationen", is forbidding symbols of organisations that are
    non-constitutional http://dejure.org/gesetze/StGB/86.html.

    Here an overview about forbidden symbols:
    http://www.turnitdown.de/ns-symbole.html
    http://www.hagalil.com/deutschland/r...xtremismus.htm

    What people are doing is to use kind of similar symbols to circumvent trouble.
    There are edit distances in the writing, birth dates, positions of letters in
    the alphabeth, ... did you know that the London shirt company Lonsdale has
    the letter NSDA in their name? They are selling a real lot for that reason.

    Package whatever you want. But value your time. And value your intellect.

    Steffen

  4. Re: Bug#427297: ITP: sturmbahnfahrer -- simulated obstacle course for automobiles

    "Miriam Ruiz" wrote:

    > 2007/6/4, Alexander Reelsen :
    >
    > Hi
    >
    > > On Sun, 2007-06-03 at 12:49 +0200, Andreas Tille wrote:
    > >> I'm not really picky about names and would be quite relaxed if the
    > >> official
    > >> homepage http://www.sturmbahnfahrer.com/ would not support the suspicion
    > >> by using a font that at least supports the ill feeling. So even if I
    > >> don't
    > >> want to spekulate about lawyers opinions - it seems to show at least bad
    > >> taste of the authors.

    > > Isn't this just a standard blackletter font?

    > Apart from that gothic fonts were forbidden by law in 1941 and replaced by
    > latin type of lettering. So the feeling is really nothing more than a
    > feeling in this case.
    >
    > I can't believe that... gothic fonts are forbidden in Germany by law!!!???


    Only in the (1000-8) years between 1941 and 1945.

    Regards, Frank
    --
    Frank Küster
    Single Molecule Spectroscopy, Protein Folding @ Inst. f. Biochemie, Univ. Zürich
    Debian Developer (teTeX/TeXLive)

  5. Re: Bug#427297: ITP: sturmbahnfahrer -- simulated obstacle course for automobiles

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  6. Re: Bug#427297: ITP: sturmbahnfahrer -- simulated obstacle course for automobiles

    Hi Miriam,

    "Miriam Ruiz" writes:

    > 2007/6/4, Alexander Reelsen :
    >>
    >> Hi
    >>
    >> > On Sun, 2007-06-03 at 12:49 +0200, Andreas Tille wrote:
    >> >> I'm not really picky about names and would be quite relaxed if the
    >> >> official
    >> >> homepage http://www.sturmbahnfahrer.com/ would not support the

    >> suspicion
    >> >> by using a font that at least supports the ill feeling. So even if I
    >> >> don't
    >> >> want to spekulate about lawyers opinions - it seems to show at least

    >> bad
    >> >> taste of the authors.
    >> > Isn't this just a standard blackletter font?

    >> Apart from that gothic fonts were forbidden by law in 1941 and replaced by
    >> latin type of lettering. So the feeling is really nothing more than a
    >> feeling in this case.

    >
    >
    > I can't believe that... gothic fonts are forbidden in Germany by law!!!???

    no, not nowadays. I don't know if such fonts were really forbidden by
    written law (whatever that mean for the nazis) at that time. But they
    were abolished as 'un-german' around 1940. Nowadays showing nazi
    symbols in the public and denying the holocaust is forbidden in
    Germany and some other countries.

    The german term 'Sturmbahn' as in 'Sturmbahnfahrer' describes a trail
    were you have to vanquish some barriers to train your physical
    fitness. This is often used in military lingo. But I also know it from
    places, where you can train your dog. So a 'Sturmbahnfahrer' is
    someone who drives over a 'Sturmbahn'.

    I find the name for the game a little bit awkward, too. It may confuse
    people as we can see in this discussion. But after having a glance at
    the games homepage I wouldn't see any association with nazis.

    Michael

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  7. Re: Bug#427297: ITP: sturmbahnfahrer -- simulated obstacle course for automobiles

    Michael Welle wrote:

    > The german term 'Sturmbahn' as in 'Sturmbahnfahrer' describes a trail
    > were you have to vanquish some barriers to train your physical
    > fitness. This is often used in military lingo. But I also know it from
    > places, where you can train your dog.


    Do you have references for that? I've never heard that word[1], but
    then I didn't do military service, nor do I keep a dog... Google gives
    some hits that point to what you describe (the fitness trail), but also
    to online games and actually a photo album by a SS officer. Well.

    Regards, Frank

    [1] and I'm german, not swiss as my sig might suggest to some
    --
    Frank Küster
    Single Molecule Spectroscopy, Protein Folding @ Inst. f. Biochemie, Univ. Zürich
    Debian Developer (teTeX/TeXLive)

  8. Re: Bug#427297: ITP: sturmbahnfahrer -- simulated obstacle course for automobiles

    On Monday 04 June 2007 14:20, Frank Küster wrote:
    > Michael Welle wrote:
    > > The german term 'Sturmbahn' as in 'Sturmbahnfahrer' describes a trail
    > > were you have to vanquish some barriers to train your physical
    > > fitness. This is often used in military lingo. But I also know it
    > > from places, where you can train your dog.

    >
    > Do you have references for that? I've never heard that word[1], but
    > then I didn't do military service, nor do I keep a dog... Google gives
    > some hits that point to what you describe (the fitness trail), but also
    > to online games and actually a photo album by a SS officer. Well.


    FWIW, Dutch has a similar word: stormbaan (a literal translation of
    Sturmbahn). All top google hits for that are related to obstacle courses.

    I have to agree with earlier posters though that the choice of font on the
    homepage of the game indicates that the authors at least considered the
    association with Sturmbannfürher.

    Cheers,
    FJP

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  9. Re: Bug#427297: ITP: sturmbahnfahrer -- simulated obstacle course for automobiles

    On Mon, Jun 04, 2007 at 02:20:46PM +0200, Frank Küster wrote:
    > Michael Welle wrote:
    >
    > > The german term 'Sturmbahn' as in 'Sturmbahnfahrer' describes a trail
    > > were you have to vanquish some barriers to train your physical
    > > fitness. This is often used in military lingo. But I also know it from
    > > places, where you can train your dog.

    >
    > Do you have references for that? I've never heard that word[1], but
    > then I didn't do military service, nor do I keep a dog... Google gives
    > some hits that point to what you describe (the fitness trail), but also
    > to online games and actually a photo album by a SS officer. Well.


    http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindernisbahn


    Cheers,
    Michael
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    : :' : | Free Java Developer
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    `- | 1024D/BAC5 4B28 D436 95E6 F2E0 BD11 5923 A008 2763 483B


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  10. Re: Bug#427297: ITP: sturmbahnfahrer -- simulated obstacle course for automobiles

    Then, would simply "sturmbahn" be a suitable name for the package?

    Greetings,
    Miry

    2007/6/4, Michael Koch :
    >
    > On Mon, Jun 04, 2007 at 02:20:46PM +0200, Frank Küster wrote:
    > > Michael Welle wrote:
    > >
    > > > The german term 'Sturmbahn' as in 'Sturmbahnfahrer' describes a trail
    > > > were you have to vanquish some barriers to train your physical
    > > > fitness. This is often used in military lingo. But I also know it from
    > > > places, where you can train your dog.

    > >
    > > Do you have references for that? I've never heard that word[1], but
    > > then I didn't do military service, nor do I keep a dog... Google gives
    > > some hits that point to what you describe (the fitness trail), but also
    > > to online games and actually a photo album by a SS officer. Well.

    >
    > http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindernisbahn
    >



  11. Re: Bug#427297: ITP: sturmbahnfahrer -- simulated obstacle course for automobiles

    Hi Frank,

    Frank Küster writes:

    > Michael Welle wrote:
    >
    >> The german term 'Sturmbahn' as in 'Sturmbahnfahrer' describes a trail
    >> were you have to vanquish some barriers to train your physical
    >> fitness. This is often used in military lingo. But I also know it from
    >> places, where you can train your dog.

    >
    > Do you have references for that? I've never heard that word[1], but
    > then I didn't do military service, nor do I keep a dog... Google gives
    > some hits that point to what you describe (the fitness trail), but also
    > to online games and actually a photo album by a SS officer. Well.

    it comes from the back of my mind, so no direct references. Military
    services didn't liked me, too . Maybe I know the term from some
    fellows who are grown up in GDR. I will try to determine this. The
    term is not in my active vocabulary. If one trusts google, 'sturmbahn'
    seems to be quite common in military lingo.

    VG
    hmw

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  12. Re: Bug#427297: ITP: sturmbahnfahrer -- simulated obstacle course for automobiles

    On 2007-06-04, Miriam Ruiz wrote:
    > ------=_Part_840_15471732.1180961520043
    > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
    > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    > Content-Disposition: inline
    >
    > Then, would simply "sturmbahn" be a suitable name for the package?


    Fahrer means 'traveller' or something like that in my limited german
    vocabulary. I don't think that sturmbahnfarer is unsuitable. One who
    travels through a course with many obstacles ...

    /Sune


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  13. Re: Bug#427297: ITP: sturmbahnfahrer -- simulated obstacle course for automobiles

    Hi Miriam,

    "Miriam Ruiz" writes:

    > Then, would simply "sturmbahn" be a suitable name for the package?

    is this an yes/no question? I for myself with decent knowledge of
    german language and history have no big issues with the name. But I
    understand that some people have bad feelings about the name due to
    its closeness to some nazi terms. Perhaps you can add a little piece
    of prosa explainig the term?

    In general I find it very interesting, what feelings are introduced
    into people by words (not doings). It is difficult, but exciting, to
    pay attention to all this people from different cultures all the
    time.


    Michael


    PS: Debian contains a package named stalin.

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  14. Re: Bug#427297: ITP: sturmbahnfahrer -- simulated obstacle course for automobiles

    Hi,

    "Miriam Ruiz" writes:

    > Then, would simply "sturmbahn" be a suitable name for the package?

    sorry, I forgot to mention that the name seems to sound much better
    without the term 'fahrer'.

    Michael

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  15. Re: Bug#427297: ITP: sturmbahnfahrer -- simulated obstacle course for automobiles

    * Sune Vuorela :
    > On 2007-06-04, Miriam Ruiz wrote:
    > > ------=_Part_840_15471732.1180961520043
    > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
    > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    > > Content-Disposition: inline
    > >
    > > Then, would simply "sturmbahn" be a suitable name for the package?

    >
    > Fahrer means 'traveller' or something like that in my limited german
    > vocabulary.



    Fahrer = driver

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  16. Re: Bug#427297: ITP: sturmbahnfahrer -- simulated obstacle course for automobiles

    Le Mon, Jun 04, 2007 at 02:52:00PM +0200, Miriam Ruiz a écrit :
    >
    > Then, would simply "sturmbahn" be a suitable name for the package?
    > Greetings,
    > Miry


    Dear Miriam,

    I think that the opinions expressed on -devel (I feel a bit sorry for
    the traffic) are diverse and redundant enough to suggest that we have
    now quite a good overview.

    I found a thread on happypenguin.org through the following Google
    search:

    http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...hrer+bad+taste

    There is somebody who identifies himself as the author and who answers
    to similar questions.

    http://www.happypenguin.org/show?Stu...hrer&showall=1

    Definitely, without his input, there is not much more to say...

    Have a nice day,

    --
    Charles Plessy
    http://charles.plessy.org
    Wako, Saitama, Japan


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  17. Re: Bug#427297: ITP: sturmbahnfahrer -- simulated obstacle course for automobiles

    Hi,

    On Monday 04 June 2007 10:38, Miriam Ruiz wrote:
    > I can't believe that... gothic fonts are forbidden in Germany by law!!!???


    They were merely deprecated, but not forbidden, see
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiqua-Fraktur_dispute - the german version of
    that page gives a bit more info.

    Nowadays these kinds of fonts are often used to make stuff look older or
    to "look german", and _sometimes_ the desired effect is to look "like ~65
    years ago".


    regards,
    Holger

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  18. Re: Bug#427297: ITP: sturmbahnfahrer -- simulated obstacle course for automobiles

    On Monday 04 June 2007 14.20:46 Frank Küster wrote:
    > Michael Welle wrote:
    > > The german term 'Sturmbahn' as in 'Sturmbahnfahrer' describes a trail
    > > were you have to vanquish some barriers to train your physical
    > > fitness.


    [...]

    > [1] and I'm german, not swiss as my sig might suggest to some


    Just some trivia since we're speaking about .ch ... it's Kampfbahn here.
    Never heard the combination with "Fahrer", though. (I'm doing military
    service, but not on troops where the Kampfbahn is our business)

    -- vbi



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  19. Re: Bug#427297: ITP: sturmbahnfahrer -- simulated obstacle course for automobiles

    On 6/4/07, Adrian von Bidder wrote:
    > Just some trivia since we're speaking about .ch ... it's Kampfbahn here.
    > Never heard the combination with "Fahrer", though. (I'm doing military
    > service, but not on troops where the Kampfbahn is our business)


    In Afrikaans (descendant of Dutch) it is "hindernisbaan", which is
    actually very similar to the german hindernisbahn. Hindernis ==
    obstacle.

    If there is one thing this longish thread did is to make me feel
    better about my poor german, considering some of the english produced
    by the germans. Eg: non-constitunional (should be unconstitutional).
    But no-one said english was logic :-) What with unkempt (no such word
    as kempt though) and disheveled (no such word as sheveled) :-)

    Groete,
    Izak


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  20. Re: Bug#427297: ITP: sturmbahnfahrer -- simulated obstacle course for automobiles

    I demand that Izak Burger may or may not have written...

    [snip]
    > But no-one said english was logic :-)


    It isn't. It's not logical either. :-)

    > What with unkempt (no such word as kempt though) and disheveled (no such
    > word as sheveled) :-)


    You mean "dishevelled", unless you're using American English.

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