First jump into the AMD 64-bit world... - Debian

This is a discussion on First jump into the AMD 64-bit world... - Debian ; Greetings good peoples of the newsgroups... Up until now, I've been using a relatively old Pentium4 based computer. Nice and simple, nothing too fancy. But it's looking like I'll have the opportunity shortly to step up to a somewhat more ...

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Thread: First jump into the AMD 64-bit world...

  1. First jump into the AMD 64-bit world...

    Greetings good peoples of the newsgroups...

    Up until now, I've been using a relatively old Pentium4 based
    computer. Nice and simple, nothing too fancy. But it's looking like
    I'll have the opportunity shortly to step up to a somewhat more modern
    dual-core AMD 64-bit system.

    However, being pretty much clueless about anything other than the basic
    simple single-core 32-bit Intel Pentiums, I'm wondering if someone can
    share their experience with what changes I'll need to make, and what to
    watch out for.

    I still intend to have a mooch around google, but last time I listened
    in on the AMD and SMP debates, I came away more confused than I
    started. So knowing me I'll put in all the wrong search terms, and the
    only results I'll find will be out-dated and good for little more than
    confusing me even further. A response from someone here that I can use
    to filter my impressions and misunderstandings would be mighty
    helpful.


    Fredderic

  2. Re: First jump into the AMD 64-bit world...

    Government satellites recorded Fredderic saying:
    > Greetings good peoples of the newsgroups...
    >
    > Up until now, I've been using a relatively old Pentium4 based
    > computer. Nice and simple, nothing too fancy. But it's looking like
    > I'll have the opportunity shortly to step up to a somewhat more modern
    > dual-core AMD 64-bit system.
    >
    > However, being pretty much clueless about anything other than the basic
    > simple single-core 32-bit Intel Pentiums, I'm wondering if someone can
    > share their experience with what changes I'll need to make, and what to
    > watch out for.



    You'll probably be disappointed by my brevity, none the less, as an
    home user on a 64bit ASUS, here's what I think: get it, put a 32bit
    OS on and don't worry about the hype. 64bit is only very useful if
    you're a huge number crunching kinda guy.

    --
    sk8r-365

    http://goodbye-microsoft.com/

  3. Re: First jump into the AMD 64-bit world...

    On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 07:57:09 -0600,
    sk8r-365 wrote:

    > Government satellites recorded Fredderic saying:
    > > However, being pretty much clueless about anything other than the
    > > basic simple single-core 32-bit Intel Pentiums, I'm wondering if
    > > someone can share their experience with what changes I'll need to
    > > make, and what to watch out for moving to a somewhat more modern
    > > dual-core AMD 64-bit system.

    > You'll probably be disappointed by my brevity, none the less, as an
    > home user on a 64bit ASUS, here's what I think: get it, put a 32bit
    > OS on and don't worry about the hype. 64bit is only very useful if
    > you're a huge number crunching kinda guy.


    Okay, so you're saying to just install the 686 kernel builds on it like
    I do now, and it'll work...?

    Hmmm..... Thanks for that...

    In that case, I'll probably slap on what I'm used to to get the system
    up and going, and look at the amd64 architecture at a later date.


    Fredderic

  4. Re: First jump into the AMD 64-bit world...

    Government satellites recorded Fredderic saying:
    > On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 07:57:09 -0600,
    > sk8r-365 wrote:
    >> You'll probably be disappointed by my brevity, none the less, as an
    >> home user on a 64bit ASUS, here's what I think: get it, put a 32bit
    >> OS on and don't worry about the hype. 64bit is only very useful if
    >> you're a huge number crunching kinda guy.

    >
    > Okay, so you're saying to just install the 686 kernel builds on it like
    > I do now, and it'll work...?


    Oh yeah. Read this:

    uname -a
    Linux sk8r 2.6.18-4-686 #1 SMP Wed May 9 23:03:12 UTC 2007 i686 GNU/Linux

    cat /proc/cpuinfo
    processor : 0
    vendor_id : AuthenticAMD
    cpu family : 15
    model : 44
    model name : AMD Sempron(tm) Processor 3000+
    stepping : 2
    cpu MHz : 1808.786
    cache size : 128 KB
    fdiv_bug : no
    hlt_bug : no
    f00f_bug : no
    coma_bug : no
    fpu : yes
    fpu_exception : yes
    cpuid level : 1
    wp : yes
    bogomips : 3619.95

    >
    > Hmmm..... Thanks for that...
    >
    > In that case, I'll probably slap on what I'm used to to get the system
    > up and going, and look at the amd64 architecture at a later date.


    Debian Etch works like a charm and all my (old) 32bit apps like Q3A
    run beautifully. Plus, support for things like flash, and others,
    aren't fully 64bit supported as yet.

    --
    sk8r-365

    http://goodbye-microsoft.com/

  5. Re: First jump into the AMD 64-bit world...

    On Fri, 13 Jul 2007 00:52:07 +1000, Fredderic wrote:

    > On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 07:57:09 -0600,
    > sk8r-365 wrote:
    >
    >> Government satellites recorded Fredderic saying:
    >> > However, being pretty much clueless about anything other than the
    >> > basic simple single-core 32-bit Intel Pentiums, I'm wondering if
    >> > someone can share their experience with what changes I'll need to
    >> > make, and what to watch out for moving to a somewhat more modern
    >> > dual-core AMD 64-bit system.

    >> You'll probably be disappointed by my brevity, none the less, as an
    >> home user on a 64bit ASUS, here's what I think: get it, put a 32bit
    >> OS on and don't worry about the hype. 64bit is only very useful if
    >> you're a huge number crunching kinda guy.

    >
    > Okay, so you're saying to just install the 686 kernel builds on it like
    > I do now, and it'll work...?
    >
    > Hmmm..... Thanks for that...
    >
    > In that case, I'll probably slap on what I'm used to to get the system
    > up and going, and look at the amd64 architecture at a later date.
    >
    >
    > Fredderic


    I use 64 bit myself. The only thing that doesn't work is flash. There is
    a way to make it work, but I haven't gone through the trouble.

    stonerfish

  6. Re: First jump into the AMD 64-bit world...

    Government satellites recorded jellybean stonerfish saying:
    > On Fri, 13 Jul 2007 00:52:07 +1000, Fredderic wrote:
    >
    >
    > I use 64 bit myself. The only thing that doesn't work is flash. There is
    > a way to make it work, but I haven't gone through the trouble.
    >


    I have flash working (for my wife) but I could care less.

    Regarding 64bit: what increased benefit did you find over 32bit?
    Can you play 32bit games without chroot? If you use it, does OOo
    calc and USB printing function correctly now? What of Abiword, too?
    --
    sk8r-365

    http://goodbye-microsoft.com/

  7. Re: First jump into the AMD 64-bit world...

    On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 23:36:40 +1000, Fredderic wrote:

    > Greetings good peoples of the newsgroups...
    >
    > Up until now, I've been using a relatively old Pentium4 based computer.
    > Nice and simple, nothing too fancy. But it's looking like I'll have the
    > opportunity shortly to step up to a somewhat more modern dual-core AMD
    > 64-bit system.
    >
    > However, being pretty much clueless about anything other than the basic
    > simple single-core 32-bit Intel Pentiums, I'm wondering if someone can
    > share their experience with what changes I'll need to make, and what to
    > watch out for.
    >
    > I still intend to have a mooch around google, but last time I listened
    > in on the AMD and SMP debates, I came away more confused than I started.
    > So knowing me I'll put in all the wrong search terms, and the only
    > results I'll find will be out-dated and good for little more than
    > confusing me even further. A response from someone here that I can use
    > to filter my impressions and misunderstandings would be mighty helpful.
    >
    >
    >
    > Fredderic


    Irecently moved up to an AMD x2 64 6000 running Fedora 7 X86_64. The only
    real problem so far is no Adobe Flash. Everything else is fine. With
    Firefox 2.004, Evolution 2.10.2, Pan 0.131 all open for a long time takes
    about 600 MB. The system is much faster than what I replaced, as it
    should be.
    Harold

  8. Re: First jump into the AMD 64-bit world...

    Government satellites recorded Harold saying:
    >


    > The system is much faster than what I replaced, as it
    > should be.


    Are you saying the system is faster with the 32 vs. 64 bit OS on
    the same machine or that this machine is faster than the old one it
    replaced?

    --
    sk8r-365

    http://goodbye-microsoft.com/

  9. Re: First jump into the AMD 64-bit world...

    On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 09:39:00 -0600, sk8r-365 wrote:

    > Government satellites recorded jellybean stonerfish saying:
    >> On Fri, 13 Jul 2007 00:52:07 +1000, Fredderic wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >> I use 64 bit myself. The only thing that doesn't work is flash. There is
    >> a way to make it work, but I haven't gone through the trouble.
    >>

    >
    > I have flash working (for my wife) but I could care less.
    >
    > Regarding 64bit: what increased benefit did you find over 32bit?


    No benefit that I notice. I use 64 because my processor is 64.

    > Can you play 32bit games without chroot?


    This box is 64bit ubuntu. The games on the repositories work ( most of the
    ones I tested, but the only ones I play are frozen-bubble, supper-tux and
    tux-racer. I have installed a 32bit binary game (wolfenstein enemy
    territory) and it works when my kids use it.

    > If you use it, does OOo
    > calc and USB printing function correctly now? What of Abiword, too?


    I don't know what OOo calc is. I don't have a printer, but scanner,
    camera and ipod all work. I use open office for formatted text or
    spreadsheet as I don't have abiword installed.


    stonerfish

  10. Re: First jump into the AMD 64-bit world...

    On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 19:02:15 GMT,
    jellybean stonerfish wrote:

    > On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 09:39:00 -0600, sk8r-365 wrote:
    > > Government satellites recorded jellybean stonerfish saying:
    > >> On Fri, 13 Jul 2007 00:52:07 +1000, Fredderic wrote:

    >
    > > Can you play 32bit games without chroot?

    > This box is 64bit ubuntu. The games on the repositories work ( most
    > of the ones I tested, but the only ones I play are frozen-bubble,
    > supper-tux and tux-racer. I have installed a 32bit binary game
    > (wolfenstein enemy territory) and it works when my kids use it.
    >
    > I don't know what OOo calc is. I don't have a printer, but scanner,
    > camera and ipod all work. I use open office for formatted text or
    > spreadsheet as I don't have abiword installed.


    Sounds like I should just jump in with amd64, then...

    Although... I am curious about how it goes with odd drivers. Things
    like web cams, that are hard enough finding one that'll work in
    Windoze, let along Linux, as it is. My wife's about to palm off an old
    cheapo web cam on me (which is only fair, I palm my old computers off
    on her ), which I want to stick in the front window so I can see
    who's coming up my driveway (it'll be useless at night, but such is
    life). So I guess I'm asking whether there's a comparison anywhere of
    what drivers do and don't work (I didn't find one myself, and no
    one's suggested one yet, so I'm guessing there's no such thing, but
    thought I'd ask anyhow).


    Anyhow, if it's all good, then there's a new question or two, but I'll
    save that for a new thread.


    Fredderic

  11. Re: First jump into the AMD 64-bit world...

    Government satellites recorded Burkhard Ott saying:

    > Put more than 1 GB into the box an you see and feel the difference, if you
    > have an 64 bit system you should use the features (e.g. RAM access etc.)


    Thanks for replying, but I have a Gig now and swap in use is less than half
    (434360k in use). Why would I expect a benefit by adding more?

    --
    sk8r-365

    http://goodbye-microsoft.com/

  12. Re: First jump into the AMD 64-bit world...

    Government satellites recorded jellybean stonerfish saying:
    > On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 09:39:00 -0600, sk8r-365 wrote:
    >>
    >> Regarding 64bit: what increased benefit did you find over 32bit?

    >
    > No benefit that I notice. I use 64 because my processor is 64.


    That's the experience I had.

    >> Can you play 32bit games without chroot?

    >
    > This box is 64bit ubuntu. The games on the repositories work ( most of the
    > ones I tested, but the only ones I play are frozen-bubble, supper-tux and
    > tux-racer. I have installed a 32bit binary game (wolfenstein enemy
    > territory) and it works when my kids use it.
    >


    Would that be the i32-libs?

    >> If you use it, does OOo
    >> calc and USB printing function correctly now? What of Abiword, too?

    >
    > I don't know what OOo calc is. I don't have a printer, but scanner,
    > camera and ipod all work. I use open office for formatted text or
    > spreadsheet as I don't have abiword installed.


    Sorry, 'OOo' is OpenOffice.org abd 'calc' is their spreadsheet. I
    use it for my pay check - time card.

    I might *someday* switch to 64bit OS, only if I can still play
    Q3A/UT2004, just because I can but not due to the belief it speeds up
    anything. Reason I got the 64bit system is because that's all there
    was available here in the middle of fly over country - Wyoming, USA.

    --
    sk8r-365

    http://goodbye-microsoft.com/

  13. Re: First jump into the AMD 64-bit world...

    Government satellites recorded Fredderic saying:

    >
    > Although... I am curious about how it goes with odd drivers. Things
    > like web cams, that are hard enough finding one that'll work in
    > Windoze, let along Linux, as it is.


    Just search the web for the make and model of the cam for Linux
    support (compatibility) ... most are supported. Pick whatever Linux
    software package you prefer from there. It's generally *much*
    easier to set up devices in Linux than on a Winbox.


    >
    > Anyhow, if it's all good, then there's a new question or two, but I'll
    > save that for a new thread.


    Good luck and see ya then !
    --
    sk8r-365

    http://goodbye-microsoft.com/

  14. Re: First jump into the AMD 64-bit world...

    Am Thu, 12 Jul 2007 21:11:57 -0600 schrieb sk8r-365:

    > Government satellites recorded Burkhard Ott saying:
    >
    >> Put more than 1 GB into the box an you see and feel the difference, if you
    >> have an 64 bit system you should use the features (e.g. RAM access etc.)

    >
    > Thanks for replying, but I have a Gig now and swap in use is less than half
    > (434360k in use). Why would I expect a benefit by adding more?
    >


    You don't understand correctely, on a x86_64 your bus has more 'wires',
    that means higher data throuput, the main memory isn't split in a lower
    part and a higher part etc.
    x86_64 was only the logical step, even the dual and quad core technology

    cheers

  15. Re: First jump into the AMD 64-bit world...

    Am Thu, 12 Jul 2007 21:23:37 -0600 schrieb sk8r-365:

    > Government satellites recorded jellybean stonerfish saying:
    >
    >> No benefit that I notice. I use 64 because my processor is 64.

    >
    > That's the experience I had.


    You can make this experience with compiling large software, you can make
    the experience with databases, with webservers etc.
    Unfortunately I can play with those stuff only at work, for home use I
    still have a 32 bit system.

    >>> Can you play 32bit games without chroot?

    >>
    >> This box is 64bit ubuntu. The games on the repositories work ( most of the
    >> ones I tested, but the only ones I play are frozen-bubble, supper-tux and
    >> tux-racer. I have installed a 32bit binary game (wolfenstein enemy
    >> territory) and it works when my kids use it.

    > Would that be the i32-libs?



    That's one idea of x86_64, you can also use software which has been
    compiled for 32 bit.

    > I might *someday* switch to 64bit OS, only if I can still play
    > Q3A/UT2004, just because I can but not due to the belief it speeds up
    > anything. Reason I got the 64bit system is because that's all there
    > was available here in the middle of fly over country - Wyoming, USA.


    Install ia32-libs (debian packagename I don't use ubuntu) and all you 32
    bit applications run in the 64 bit OS either.

    cheers

  16. Re: First jump into the AMD 64-bit world...

    Burkhard Ott writes:
    >You don't understand correctely, on a x86_64 your bus has more 'wires',
    >that means higher data throuput,


    The bus to main memory and to the L2 cache has the same number of
    wires, and all of them are utilised. The data throughput is pretty
    much the same, with some rare exceptions:

    - If the application is memory or cache bandwidth limited and uses lots of
    pointers, the 32-bit version will be faster, because the same
    bandwidth transfers twice as many pointers per time unit.

    - If the program does 64-bit integer computations, the 64-bit
    version will be faster.

    - x86-64 has more registers and a different calling convention, which
    make it a little faster in many cases.

    - x86-64 is guaranteed to have SSE2, which can be used to make some
    programs more efficient (I guess that's the reason why oggenc runs
    faster by about a factor of 1.4 in the 64-bit version).

    > the main memory isn't split in a lower
    >part and a higher part etc.


    Unkless you are spending a lot of time in system calls, that does not
    matter. If it does, you can run a 64-bit kernel (which eliminates
    this problem) with a 32-bit userland.

    - anton
    --
    M. Anton Ertl Some things have to be seen to be believed
    anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at Most things have to be believed to be seen
    http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html

  17. Re: First jump into the AMD 64-bit world...

    sk8r-365 writes:
    >I might *someday* switch to 64bit OS, only if I can still play
    >Q3A/UT2004


    UT2004 has fully supported 64-bit Linux from day one. However, once
    you install the patch, the patch installs a 32-bit binary instead of
    the 64-bit binary, and as a consequence UT2004 no longer works (at
    least on Debian Etch); that's relatively easy to fix by finding the
    64-bit binary that also comes with the patch, and installing it
    instead of the 32-bit binary.

    - anton
    --
    M. Anton Ertl Some things have to be seen to be believed
    anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at Most things have to be believed to be seen
    http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html

  18. Re: First jump into the AMD 64-bit world...

    Am Fri, 13 Jul 2007 09:38:36 +0000 schrieb Anton Ertl:

    > Burkhard Ott writes:


    > The bus to main memory and to the L2 cache has the same number of
    > wires, and all of them are utilised. The data throughput is pretty
    > much the same, with some rare exceptions:


    I don't agree as closer you are at the cpu as higher is your clock rate,
    more clock rate more data transfer.
    There has been the first idea to getting faster processors so we got the 3
    GHz.
    L2 is faster than ram -> higher clockrate

    > - x86-64 has more registers and a different calling convention, which
    > make it a little faster in many cases.


    Not only more, the are more broadly either

    cheers

  19. Re: First jump into the AMD 64-bit world...

    Burkhard Ott writes:
    >Am Fri, 13 Jul 2007 09:38:36 +0000 schrieb Anton Ertl:
    >
    >> Burkhard Ott writes:

    >
    >> The bus to main memory and to the L2 cache has the same number of
    >> wires, and all of them are utilised. The data throughput is pretty
    >> much the same, with some rare exceptions:

    >
    >I don't agree as closer you are at the cpu as higher is your clock rate,
    >more clock rate more data transfer.


    But the maximum throughput does not change with whether you are using
    the processor for 32-bit or for 64-bit programs.

    - anton
    --
    M. Anton Ertl Some things have to be seen to be believed
    anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at Most things have to be believed to be seen
    http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html

  20. Re: First jump into the AMD 64-bit world...

    Government satellites recorded Burkhard Ott saying:
    > Am Thu, 12 Jul 2007 21:11:57 -0600 schrieb sk8r-365:
    >
    >> Government satellites recorded Burkhard Ott saying:
    >>
    >>> Put more than 1 GB into the box an you see and feel the difference, if you
    >>> have an 64 bit system you should use the features (e.g. RAM access etc.)

    >>
    >> Thanks for replying, but I have a Gig now and swap in use is less than half
    >> (434360k in use). Why would I expect a benefit by adding more?
    >>

    >
    > You don't understand correctely, on a x86_64 your bus has more 'wires',
    > that means higher data throuput, the main memory isn't split in a lower
    > part and a higher part etc.
    > x86_64 was only the logical step, even the dual and quad core technology
    >


    Evidently. I *still* don't get it. I have a GIG of RAM on a 32bit OS with a
    64bit machine (hardware) and there's less than 1/2 of that RAM currently
    in use. So I see no reason to think by adding another GIG I'll have more RAM
    in use. Rather, I should have a GIG and half unused then as opposed
    to having a half GIG unused now. What I'm taking away from this is
    you think - an analogy coming - that if I have a car which gets 30
    MPG and the car has 10 gallon gas tank, if I put on a 20 gallon gas
    tank, I should get better MPG.

    --
    sk8r-365

    http://goodbye-microsoft.com/

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