wrote in message
news:1187606943.509532.43700@r34g2000hsd.googlegro ups.com...
>I was wondering if anybody else on this list has tried to install the
> KayPLUS ROM upgrade on this system and what kind of luck they had in
> talking to the hard drive.
>
> Thanks
> Don_C
>

Don,

Yes. I've been playing with this rom on and off for a few months now. It
doesn't see my hard drive, a Seagate ST251 40 meg MFM drive. I've tried 4
other known good drives and none of them are seen either. Can I assume that
you've been to the Microcodeconsulting website -
http://www.microcodeconsulting.com/z80/kayplus.htm ? I've been working with
Mitch, the webmaster there and he's determined that my motherboard is from a
Kaypro 4-84 with the hard drive stuff added and not a standard Kaypro 10.
It looks like Kaypro used up whatever parts they had laying around to make
some of the Kaypro 10's. Mitch had to go on a field trip about a month ago
and when he came back, he sent me an email saying that he was ready to
resume the search for an answer to my problem. But when I try to email him
now, I get this error. "Permanent Failure:
550_5.1.1__recipient_rejected". I
haven't found a cure for this error so I'm at a standstill until I can get
through to Mitch. I have pictures of my mobo and also from a Kaypro 10 that
was on ebay and they are very different. Goes to show you that nothing's
easy

Ralph

On Aug 20, 12:13 pm, "RED" wrote:
> wrote in message
>
> news:1187606943.509532.43700@r34g2000hsd.googlegro ups.com...
>
> >I was wondering if anybody else on this list has tried to install the
> > KayPLUS ROM upgrade on this system and what kind of luck they had in
> > talking to the hard drive.
>
> > Thanks
> > Don_C
>
> Don,
>
> Yes. I've been playing with this rom on and off for a few months now. It
> doesn't see my hard drive, a Seagate ST251 40 meg MFM drive. I've tried 4
> other known good drives and none of them are seen either. Can I assume that
> you've been to the Microcodeconsulting website -http://www.microcodeconsulting.com/z80/kayplus.htm? I've been working with
> Mitch, the webmaster there and he's determined that my motherboard is from a
> Kaypro 4-84 with the hard drive stuff added and not a standard Kaypro 10.
> It looks like Kaypro used up whatever parts they had laying around to make
> some of the Kaypro 10's. Mitch had to go on a field trip about a month ago
> and when he came back, he sent me an email saying that he was ready to
> resume the search for an answer to my problem. But when I try to email him
> now, I get this error. "Permanent Failure:
> 550_5.1.1__recipient_rejected". I
> haven't found a cure for this error so I'm at a standstill until I can get
> through to Mitch. I have pictures of my mobo and also from a Kaypro 10 that
> was on ebay and they are very different. Goes to show you that nothing's
> easy
>
> Ralph

Roger,

Kaypro did go through a lot of revisions of their systems. I also
found some issues with the KayPLUS ROM documentation. As to the K10,
if the model number of the main PCB is 81-180 B or C or whatever with
an 81-302 ROM then it is definitely an 83 model K10. If it's anything
else then it's most likely an 84 model K10.

I have an 83 model K10 and it has a small interface board between the
main PCB and the WD1002 controller. It's kind of over kill for just
two IC's. It has the decoder for the WD1002 and a 74LS00 that inverts
the reset line and I think the read and write lines.

This is where the documentation for the KayPLUS ROM is just plain
wrong. In section J at the top of page 30 it states that the level of
the reset line from the main PCB is LOW to reset the WD1002 on the 83
model K10. WRONG! The level of the signal coming out of U11 pin-19 is
HIGH to reset and then goes LOW a short time after boot up. The WD1002
controller requires a LOW level reset signal, which is why there is an
inverter on the interface board. The KayPLUS ROM leaves this signal
HIGH all the time, which keeps the WD1002 controller in reset. I might
add that the schematic for the 83 model K10 has the signal label
incorrectly. It show's J9 pin-45 as a LOW active reset signal when in
fact it is a HIGH active signal.

Since the KayPLUS ROM doesn't make use of the reset signal on pin-45 I
chose to modify the interface board between the main board and the
WD1002. Pin-43 of J9 has the LOW active system reset signal. I cut the
trace on the interface board that comes from pin-45. There is an
unused section of the 74LS00. One of the input pins is wired to ground
so I removed the ground and then removed the 74LS00 and replaced it
with a 74LS132 quad nand Schmidt trigger IC. Now I added a wire from
pin-43 to the two input pins of the spare nand gate and then wire the
output of this gate to the old input on the nand gate that came from
pin-45.

I put everything back together and guess what, I can now talk to the
hard drive.

The other issue is the HDCNFG program. I'm using the 84 ROM; the 83
ROM won't work with the K10, and HDCNFG84 program to setup the hard
drive. In the installation instructions in section D-5 step (9) where
it says to press X as in eit to save everything, DON'T DO IT! This
is an ABORT command, which cancels everything you just spent 2+ hours
doing! Instead just hit the reset button. At this point SYSGEN should
work and allow you to install the boot sector on the hard drive.

The only other problem with the system is the floppy drive light stays
on after a floppy disk access and the motor won't shut off. Could be
something stupid on my end but getting the hard drive to work was an
accomplishment.

Don

On Aug 20, 3:46 pm, coates...@att.net wrote:
> On Aug 20, 12:13 pm, "RED" wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > wrote in message
>
> >news:1187606943.509532.43700@r34g2000hsd.googlegro ups.com...
>
> > >I was wondering if anybody else on this list has tried to install the
> > > KayPLUS ROM upgrade on this system and what kind of luck they had in
> > > talking to the hard drive.
>
> > > Thanks
> > > Don_C
>
> > Don,
>
> > Yes. I've been playing with this rom on and off for a few months now. It
> > doesn't see my hard drive, a Seagate ST251 40 meg MFM drive. I've tried 4
> > other known good drives and none of them are seen either. Can I assume that
> > you've been to the Microcodeconsulting website -http://www.microcodeconsulting.com/z80/kayplus.htm? I've been working with
> > Mitch, the webmaster there and he's determined that my motherboard is from a
> > Kaypro 4-84 with the hard drive stuff added and not a standard Kaypro 10.
> > It looks like Kaypro used up whatever parts they had laying around to make
> > some of the Kaypro 10's. Mitch had to go on a field trip about a month ago
> > and when he came back, he sent me an email saying that he was ready to
> > resume the search for an answer to my problem. But when I try to email him
> > now, I get this error. "Permanent Failure:
> > 550_5.1.1__recipient_rejected". I
> > haven't found a cure for this error so I'm at a standstill until I can get
> > through to Mitch. I have pictures of my mobo and also from a Kaypro 10 that
> > was on ebay and they are very different. Goes to show you that nothing's
> > easy
>
> > Ralph
>
> Roger,
>
> Kaypro did go through a lot of revisions of their systems. I also
> found some issues with the KayPLUS ROM documentation. As to the K10,
> if the model number of the main PCB is 81-180 B or C or whatever with
> an 81-302 ROM then it is definitely an 83 model K10. If it's anything
> else then it's most likely an 84 model K10.
>
> I have an 83 model K10 and it has a small interface board between the
> main PCB and the WD1002 controller. It's kind of over kill for just
> two IC's. It has the decoder for the WD1002 and a 74LS00 that inverts
> the reset line and I think the read and write lines.
>
> This is where the documentation for the KayPLUS ROM is just plain
> wrong. In section J at the top of page 30 it states that the level of
> the reset line from the main PCB is LOW to reset the WD1002 on the 83
> model K10. WRONG! The level of the signal coming out of U11 pin-19 is
> HIGH to reset and then goes LOW a short time after boot up. The WD1002
> controller requires a LOW level reset signal, which is why there is an
> inverter on the interface board. The KayPLUS ROM leaves this signal
> HIGH all the time, which keeps the WD1002 controller in reset. I might
> add that the schematic for the 83 model K10 has the signal label
> incorrectly. It show's J9 pin-45 as a LOW active reset signal when in
> fact it is a HIGH active signal.
>
> Since the KayPLUS ROM doesn't make use of the reset signal on pin-45 I
> chose to modify the interface board between the main board and the
> WD1002. Pin-43 of J9 has the LOW active system reset signal. I cut the
> trace on the interface board that comes from pin-45. There is an
> unused section of the 74LS00. One of the input pins is wired to ground
> so I removed the ground and then removed the 74LS00 and replaced it
> with a 74LS132 quad nand Schmidt trigger IC. Now I added a wire from
> pin-43 to the two input pins of the spare nand gate and then wire the
> output of this gate to the old input on the nand gate that came from
> pin-45.
>
> I put everything back together and guess what, I can now talk to the
> hard drive.
>
> The other issue is the HDCNFG program. I'm using the 84 ROM; the 83
> ROM won't work with the K10, and HDCNFG84 program to setup the hard
> drive. In the installation instructions in section D-5 step (9) where
> it says to press X as in eit to save everything, DON'T DO IT! This
> is an ABORT command, which cancels everything you just spent 2+ hours
> doing! Instead just hit the reset button. At this point SYSGEN should
> work and allow you to install the boot sector on the hard drive.
>
> The only other problem with the system is the floppy drive light stays
> on after a floppy disk access and the motor won't shut off. Could be
> something stupid on my end but getting the hard drive to work was an
> accomplishment.
>
> Don- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Ralph,

Sory about the name boo-boo. :-( I sometimes loose track of thigs and
names is at the top of the list. I'll try and do better nest time.

Don

wrote in message
news:1187687743.961530.104310@i38g2000prf.googlegr oups.com...
> On Aug 20, 3:46 pm, coates...@att.net wrote:
>> On Aug 20, 12:13 pm, "RED" wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > wrote in message
>>
>> >news:1187606943.509532.43700@r34g2000hsd.googlegro ups.com...
>>
>> > >I was wondering if anybody else on this list has tried to install the
>> > > KayPLUS ROM upgrade on this system and what kind of luck they had in
>> > > talking to the hard drive.
>>
>> > > Thanks
>> > > Don_C
>>
>> > Don,
>>
>> > Yes. I've been playing with this rom on and off for a few months now.
>> > It
>> > doesn't see my hard drive, a Seagate ST251 40 meg MFM drive. I've
>> > tried 4
>> > other known good drives and none of them are seen either. Can I assume
>> > that
>> > you've been to the Microcodeconsulting
>> > website -http://www.microcodeconsulting.com/z80/kayplus.htm? I've been
>> > working with
>> > Mitch, the webmaster there and he's determined that my motherboard is
>> > from a
>> > Kaypro 4-84 with the hard drive stuff added and not a standard Kaypro
>> > 10.
>> > It looks like Kaypro used up whatever parts they had laying around to
>> > make
>> > some of the Kaypro 10's. Mitch had to go on a field trip about a
>> > month ago
>> > and when he came back, he sent me an email saying that he was ready to
>> > resume the search for an answer to my problem. But when I try to email
>> > him
>> > now, I get this error. "Permanent Failure:
>> > 550_5.1.1__recipient_rejected". I
>> > haven't found a cure for this error so I'm at a standstill until I can
>> > get
>> > through to Mitch. I have pictures of my mobo and also from a Kaypro 10
>> > that
>> > was on ebay and they are very different. Goes to show you that
>> > nothing's
>> > easy
>>
>> > Ralph
>>
>> Roger,
>>
>> Kaypro did go through a lot of revisions of their systems. I also
>> found some issues with the KayPLUS ROM documentation. As to the K10,
>> if the model number of the main PCB is 81-180 B or C or whatever with
>> an 81-302 ROM then it is definitely an 83 model K10. If it's anything
>> else then it's most likely an 84 model K10.
>>
>> I have an 83 model K10 and it has a small interface board between the
>> main PCB and the WD1002 controller. It's kind of over kill for just
>> two IC's. It has the decoder for the WD1002 and a 74LS00 that inverts
>> the reset line and I think the read and write lines.
>>
>> This is where the documentation for the KayPLUS ROM is just plain
>> wrong. In section J at the top of page 30 it states that the level of
>> the reset line from the main PCB is LOW to reset the WD1002 on the 83
>> model K10. WRONG! The level of the signal coming out of U11 pin-19 is
>> HIGH to reset and then goes LOW a short time after boot up. The WD1002
>> controller requires a LOW level reset signal, which is why there is an
>> inverter on the interface board. The KayPLUS ROM leaves this signal
>> HIGH all the time, which keeps the WD1002 controller in reset. I might
>> add that the schematic for the 83 model K10 has the signal label
>> incorrectly. It show's J9 pin-45 as a LOW active reset signal when in
>> fact it is a HIGH active signal.
>>
>> Since the KayPLUS ROM doesn't make use of the reset signal on pin-45 I
>> chose to modify the interface board between the main board and the
>> WD1002. Pin-43 of J9 has the LOW active system reset signal. I cut the
>> trace on the interface board that comes from pin-45. There is an
>> unused section of the 74LS00. One of the input pins is wired to ground
>> so I removed the ground and then removed the 74LS00 and replaced it
>> with a 74LS132 quad nand Schmidt trigger IC. Now I added a wire from
>> pin-43 to the two input pins of the spare nand gate and then wire the
>> output of this gate to the old input on the nand gate that came from
>> pin-45.
>>
>> I put everything back together and guess what, I can now talk to the
>> hard drive.
>>
>> The other issue is the HDCNFG program. I'm using the 84 ROM; the 83
>> ROM won't work with the K10, and HDCNFG84 program to setup the hard
>> drive. In the installation instructions in section D-5 step (9) where
>> it says to press X as in eit to save everything, DON'T DO IT! This
>> is an ABORT command, which cancels everything you just spent 2+ hours
>> doing! Instead just hit the reset button. At this point SYSGEN should
>> work and allow you to install the boot sector on the hard drive.
>>
>> The only other problem with the system is the floppy drive light stays
>> on after a floppy disk access and the motor won't shut off. Could be
>> something stupid on my end but getting the hard drive to work was an
>> accomplishment.
>>
>> Don- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> Ralph,
>
> Sory about the name boo-boo. :-( I sometimes loose track of thigs and
> names is at the top of the list. I'll try and do better nest time.
>
> Don

Don,

Call me anything. Just don't call me late for supper Mitch at Microcode
is working on a software/rom solution for the hard drive problem. He said
when he works it out, he will post it to the web site. I just wish that I
could email him again. Have you ever seen this email error?

Ralph

Don

Still no succes with the Kayplusrom. I have the same problems like Ralph
with his kaypro.
Reading your explination about this problem I quess there is something
fundamentily wrong with the rom.
I hope that Mitch of Microconsulting will look at this rom and make changes
so Kayplus will acces the HD.

Jos
schreef in bericht
news:1187606943.509532.43700@r34g2000hsd.googlegro ups.com...
>I was wondering if anybody else on this list has tried to install the
> KayPLUS ROM upgrade on this system and what kind of luck they had in
> talking to the hard drive.
>
> Thanks
> Don_C
>

On Aug 21, 2:41 pm, "j.e. van der geest"
wrote:
> Don
>
> Still no succes with the Kayplusrom. I have the same problems like Ralph
> with his kaypro.
> Reading your explination about this problem I quess there is something
> fundamentily wrong with the rom.
> I hope that Mitch of Microconsulting will look at this rom and make changes
> so Kayplus will acces the HD.
>
> Jos
> schreef in berichtnews:1187606943.509532.43700@r34g2000hsd.go oglegroups.com...
>
>
>
> >I was wondering if anybody else on this list has tried to install the
> > KayPLUS ROM upgrade on this system and what kind of luck they had in
> > talking to the hard drive.
>
> > Thanks
> > Don_C- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Ralph & Jos,

Well I have decided to go back to the TurboROM for now. I might try
the KayPLUS ROM later but have other problems to work on now. By
changing the reset signal to the hard drive I can now access 4 floppy
drives on my K10. I get some garbage characters on the screen when
using 3 drives but it's not a problem since I will be converting all
my 5-1/4 in floppies to 3-1/2 media. I had 3 of my 5-1/4 in drives die
during the move from Washington state to Texas. At this rate the
others may go soon as they are all about the same age.

The K10's are a bugger to figure out. I thought mine was an 83 model
but now I'm not sure. I guess it's true, Kaypro used what ever they
had until the stock of a particular part ran out and then moved on the
the next version.

Ralph,

About the bouncing email, the only time I have seen this happen is
when an ISP is blocking the email or the receiver has reported it as
spam. I hope Mitch hasen't done that as it would be plain rude and not
say a lot about Mitch in general.

Don

On Aug 24, 9:22 am, coates...@att.net wrote:
> On Aug 21, 2:41 pm, "j.e. van der geest"
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Don
>
> > Still no succes with the Kayplusrom. I have the same problems like Ralph
> > with his kaypro.
> > Reading your explination about this problem I quess there is something
> > fundamentily wrong with the rom.
> > I hope that Mitch of Microconsulting will look at this rom and make changes
> > so Kayplus will acces the HD.
>
> > Jos
> > schreef in berichtnews:1187606943.509532.43700@r34g2000hsd.go oglegroups.com...
>
> > >I was wondering if anybody else on this list has tried to install the
> > > KayPLUS ROM upgrade on this system and what kind of luck they had in
> > > talking to the hard drive.
>
> > > Thanks
> > > Don_C- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Ralph & Jos,
>
> Well I have decided to go back to the TurboROM for now. I might try
> the KayPLUS ROM later but have other problems to work on now. By
> changing the reset signal to the hard drive I can now access 4 floppy
> drives on my K10. I get some garbage characters on the screen when
> using 3 drives but it's not a problem since I will be converting all
> my 5-1/4 in floppies to 3-1/2 media. I had 3 of my 5-1/4 in drives die
> during the move from Washington state to Texas. At this rate the
> others may go soon as they are all about the same age.
>
> The K10's are a bugger to figure out. I thought mine was an 83 model
> but now I'm not sure. I guess it's true, Kaypro used what ever they
> had until the stock of a particular part ran out and then moved on the
> the next version.
>
> Ralph,
>
> About the bouncing email, the only time I have seen this happen is
> when an ISP is blocking the email or the receiver has reported it as
> spam. I hope Mitch hasen't done that as it would be plain rude and not
> say a lot about Mitch in general.
>
> Don- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

All,

My K10-83 is now fully operational using the KayPLUS ROM, 2 floppy
drives, 20 Meg hard drive and QP/M 2.7!

Don

wrote in message
news:1188555958.986304.84730@x40g2000prg.googlegro ups.com...
> On Aug 24, 9:22 am, coates...@att.net wrote:
>> On Aug 21, 2:41 pm, "j.e. van der geest"
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > Don
>>
>> > Still no succes with the Kayplusrom. I have the same problems like
>> > Ralph
>> > with his kaypro.
>> > Reading your explination about this problem I quess there is something
>> > fundamentily wrong with the rom.
>> > I hope that Mitch of Microconsulting will look at this rom and make
>> > changes
>> > so Kayplus will acces the HD.
>>
>> > Jos
>> > schreef in
>> > berichtnews:1187606943.509532.43700@r34g2000hsd.go oglegroups.com...
>>
>> > >I was wondering if anybody else on this list has tried to install the
>> > > KayPLUS ROM upgrade on this system and what kind of luck they had in
>> > > talking to the hard drive.
>>
>> > > Thanks
>> > > Don_C- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> > - Show quoted text -
>>
>> Ralph & Jos,
>>
>> Well I have decided to go back to the TurboROM for now. I might try
>> the KayPLUS ROM later but have other problems to work on now. By
>> changing the reset signal to the hard drive I can now access 4 floppy
>> drives on my K10. I get some garbage characters on the screen when
>> using 3 drives but it's not a problem since I will be converting all
>> my 5-1/4 in floppies to 3-1/2 media. I had 3 of my 5-1/4 in drives die
>> during the move from Washington state to Texas. At this rate the
>> others may go soon as they are all about the same age.
>>
>> The K10's are a bugger to figure out. I thought mine was an 83 model
>> but now I'm not sure. I guess it's true, Kaypro used what ever they
>> had until the stock of a particular part ran out and then moved on the
>> the next version.
>>
>> Ralph,
>>
>> About the bouncing email, the only time I have seen this happen is
>> when an ISP is blocking the email or the receiver has reported it as
>> spam. I hope Mitch hasen't done that as it would be plain rude and not
>> say a lot about Mitch in general.
>>
>> Don- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> All,
>
> My K10-83 is now fully operational using the KayPLUS ROM, 2 floppy
> drives, 20 Meg hard drive and QP/M 2.7!
>
> Don


Don,

If I don't hear from Microcode Consulting in about a month, I'll probably
try the hardware route that you took. What changes did you have to make to
access more than 1 floppy? I love a good hardware project. It would be
great if you would write a little blurb with all the final changes that you
made to make the KayPLUS ROM work. Do both the TurboROM and KayPLUS ROM
work with the same modifications? Thanks a lot.

Ralph

schreef in bericht
news:1188555958.986304.84730@x40g2000prg.googlegro ups.com...
> On Aug 24, 9:22 am, coates...@att.net wrote:
>> On Aug 21, 2:41 pm, "j.e. van der geest"
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > Don
>>
>> > Still no succes with the Kayplusrom. I have the same problems like
>> > Ralph
>> > with his kaypro.
>> > Reading your explination about this problem I quess there is something
>> > fundamentily wrong with the rom.
>> > I hope that Mitch of Microconsulting will look at this rom and make
>> > changes
>> > so Kayplus will acces the HD.
>>
>> > Jos
>> > schreef in
>> > berichtnews:1187606943.509532.43700@r34g2000hsd.go oglegroups.com...
>>
>> > >I was wondering if anybody else on this list has tried to install the
>> > > KayPLUS ROM upgrade on this system and what kind of luck they had in
>> > > talking to the hard drive.
>>
>> > > Thanks
>> > > Don_C- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> > - Show quoted text -
>>
>> Ralph & Jos,
>>
>> Well I have decided to go back to the TurboROM for now. I might try
>> the KayPLUS ROM later but have other problems to work on now. By
>> changing the reset signal to the hard drive I can now access 4 floppy
>> drives on my K10. I get some garbage characters on the screen when
>> using 3 drives but it's not a problem since I will be converting all
>> my 5-1/4 in floppies to 3-1/2 media. I had 3 of my 5-1/4 in drives die
>> during the move from Washington state to Texas. At this rate the
>> others may go soon as they are all about the same age.
>>
>> The K10's are a bugger to figure out. I thought mine was an 83 model
>> but now I'm not sure. I guess it's true, Kaypro used what ever they
>> had until the stock of a particular part ran out and then moved on the
>> the next version.
>>
>> Ralph,
>>
>> About the bouncing email, the only time I have seen this happen is
>> when an ISP is blocking the email or the receiver has reported it as
>> spam. I hope Mitch hasen't done that as it would be plain rude and not
>> say a lot about Mitch in general.
>>
>> Don- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> All,
>
> My K10-83 is now fully operational using the KayPLUS ROM, 2 floppy
> drives, 20 Meg hard drive and QP/M 2.7!
>
> Don
>

Don

Very nice to hear from you that you succeeded in running Kayplus with HD.
If you do not mind let me share the modifications.
Are you willing to make documentation of it so I can also running Kayplus on
my Kaypro10
I would be very pleased if you do so.

Jos

Hi folks on this thread,

I am back in circulation after a very long stint out for consulting
and personal stuff. I have been monitoring e-mail to MICROCode
Consulting but have received none on the CP/M topic area. Given the
e-mail problems I read here, I am responding here. Still, it appears
you folks have made some good headway while I was out!

A number of comments:

(1) The e-mail to MICROCode should not bounce. I tried from my
personal account and it works fine, so I am puzzled. Have you tried
recently? (I get EXTREMELY busy at times and Z80 is just a very small
side hobby at this point, but e-mail should always go through.) If
you have tried and it still bounces, let me know so I can yell at my
ISP.

(2) I stand by our documentation on KayPLUS. I personally upgraded
over 8 systems and the instructions are confirmed for the systems we
encountered. However, having said that, ...

(3) ... Don (who is clearly quite a masterful hardware guy) has
pointed out some issues that could occur depending upon your board
revision. (And, there are more board revisions out there than what we
tried KayPLUS upon.) The WD1002 reset line commentary is particularly
interesting. Although we did not experience that on any of the
boards we dealt with and I no longer have anything but a single
Kaypro10 that is operational (with KayPLUS) to help diagnose this
further, I am up for making improvements with Don's (or whomever) help
for those boards where it is an issue. You all should be aware that
even when two boards have IDENTICAL revision numbers, there was often
hardware MISSING and often some post-assembly modifications done by
Kaypro or by the distributor. That complicates doing upgrades
tremendously!!!

(4) Speaking of which, I am still on a quest to find the source code
for KayPLUS ROM and the associated utilities. It exists and I am
probably looking at it right now in the old 8" floppy archive vault --
it never was transferred from the old archive to the new archive and I
have to scare up a 8" high-density QP/M system yet. If I can find
the source code, I am willing to make the necessary changes with this
community's help. Unfortunately, as some of the engineers involved
are no longer around and there are some other contractual/legal issues
I would prefer not to hassle with, I may not be able to just toss out
source code (which would be easiest for all). But, under MYZ80 I can
(and have demonstrated) I can build Z80 ROMs and binary images.
(Somehow the QP/M and Plus2 source code made it to the new archive
system. I have tested builds using those products.)

(5) To help this along, if someone has the WD1002 documentation,
please post it. I am sure there is a copy here in the old Z80 storage
area -- somewhere -- but that was transported piecemeal when we moved
to our new digs and nobody knows where anything is there now. We call
it the "Smithsonian wing" and I am the only person who dares venture
in there. If I find mine, I will be happy to scan it into a PDF file.

-Mitch

On 2007-09-02, Mitch wrote:
> (5) To help this along, if someone has the WD1002 documentation,
> please post it. I am sure there is a copy here in the old Z80 storage
> area -- somewhere -- but that was transported piecemeal when we moved
> to our new digs and nobody knows where anything is there now. We call
> it the "Smithsonian wing" and I am the only person who dares venture
> in there. If I find mine, I will be happy to scan it into a PDF file.

Have you looked over at http://www.bitsavers.org/westernDigital/
--
roger ivie
rivie@ridgenet.net

On 2007-09-02, Roger Ivie wrote:
> On 2007-09-02, Mitch wrote:
>> (5) To help this along, if someone has the WD1002 documentation,
>> please post it. I am sure there is a copy here in the old Z80 storage
>> area -- somewhere -- but that was transported piecemeal when we moved
>> to our new digs and nobody knows where anything is there now. We call
>> it the "Smithsonian wing" and I am the only person who dares venture
>> in there. If I find mine, I will be happy to scan it into a PDF file.
>
> Have you looked over at http://www.bitsavers.org/westernDigital/

Oops! http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/westernDigital/
--
roger ivie
rivie@ridgenet.net

"Mitch" wrote in message
news:qf0kd3l748mc0g1gen20tiugbn53s3v53p@4ax.com...
> Hi folks on this thread,
>
> I am back in circulation after a very long stint out for consulting
> and personal stuff. I have been monitoring e-mail to MICROCode
> Consulting but have received none on the CP/M topic area. Given the
> e-mail problems I read here, I am responding here. Still, it appears
> you folks have made some good headway while I was out!
>
> A number of comments:
>
> (1) The e-mail to MICROCode should not bounce. I tried from my
> personal account and it works fine, so I am puzzled. Have you tried
> recently? (I get EXTREMELY busy at times and Z80 is just a very small
> side hobby at this point, but e-mail should always go through.) If
> you have tried and it still bounces, let me know so I can yell at my
> ISP.
>
> (2) I stand by our documentation on KayPLUS. I personally upgraded
> over 8 systems and the instructions are confirmed for the systems we
> encountered. However, having said that, ...
>
> (3) ... Don (who is clearly quite a masterful hardware guy) has
> pointed out some issues that could occur depending upon your board
> revision. (And, there are more board revisions out there than what we
> tried KayPLUS upon.) The WD1002 reset line commentary is particularly
> interesting. Although we did not experience that on any of the
> boards we dealt with and I no longer have anything but a single
> Kaypro10 that is operational (with KayPLUS) to help diagnose this
> further, I am up for making improvements with Don's (or whomever) help
> for those boards where it is an issue. You all should be aware that
> even when two boards have IDENTICAL revision numbers, there was often
> hardware MISSING and often some post-assembly modifications done by
> Kaypro or by the distributor. That complicates doing upgrades
> tremendously!!!
>
> (4) Speaking of which, I am still on a quest to find the source code
> for KayPLUS ROM and the associated utilities. It exists and I am
> probably looking at it right now in the old 8" floppy archive vault --
> it never was transferred from the old archive to the new archive and I
> have to scare up a 8" high-density QP/M system yet. If I can find
> the source code, I am willing to make the necessary changes with this
> community's help. Unfortunately, as some of the engineers involved
> are no longer around and there are some other contractual/legal issues
> I would prefer not to hassle with, I may not be able to just toss out
> source code (which would be easiest for all). But, under MYZ80 I can
> (and have demonstrated) I can build Z80 ROMs and binary images.
> (Somehow the QP/M and Plus2 source code made it to the new archive
> system. I have tested builds using those products.)
>
> (5) To help this along, if someone has the WD1002 documentation,
> please post it. I am sure there is a copy here in the old Z80 storage
> area -- somewhere -- but that was transported piecemeal when we moved
> to our new digs and nobody knows where anything is there now. We call
> it the "Smithsonian wing" and I am the only person who dares venture
> in there. If I find mine, I will be happy to scan it into a PDF file.
>
> -Mitch

Hello Mitch,

Just tried to email you again and this is the error that I get.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
The following addresses had delivery problems:

Permanent Failure:
550_5.1.1__recipient_rejected
Delivery last attempted at Sun, 2 Sep 2007 15:31:20 -0000
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I've sent email from comcast and gmail with the same results. I've tried
every email address on your website and get the same error. I answered you
3 hours after you last emailed me and that's when the errors started. I
received you email on 7/24 at 7:01 PM and answered at 9:59 PM and got the
error. Maybe this will help determine what the problem is. I am looking
forward to working with you to solve this problem. Thanks for all the help.

Ralph

Mitch wrote in
news:qf0kd3l748mc0g1gen20tiugbn53s3v53p@4ax.com:

> Hi folks on this thread,
>
> I am back in circulation after a very long stint out for consulting
> and personal stuff. I have been monitoring e-mail to MICROCode
> Consulting but have received none on the CP/M topic area. Given the
> e-mail problems I read here, I am responding here. Still, it appears
> you folks have made some good headway while I was out!
>
> A number of comments:
>
> (1) The e-mail to MICROCode should not bounce. I tried from my
> personal account and it works fine, so I am puzzled. Have you tried
> recently? (I get EXTREMELY busy at times and Z80 is just a very small
> side hobby at this point, but e-mail should always go through.) If
> you have tried and it still bounces, let me know so I can yell at my
> ISP.

Mitch, I'm sure it's not intentional, but 2 of my email address give the
same "Recipient Rejected" bounce. It appears you're using ATT, and they
are NOTORIOUS for their messed-up spam-block blacklisting mail servers.
I sent you a note via a GMail account about 15 minutes ago, and have not
received a bounce from THAT address yet.

> (2) I stand by our documentation on KayPLUS. I personally upgraded
> over 8 systems and the instructions are confirmed for the systems we
> encountered. However, having said that, ...

Mitch...Don;t get defensive on us - we're just so dying to have KayPLUS
work on our K10's, that it's driving us insane. Working together, we can
figure the issue out. You of course realize how much we appreciate the
effort, consindering KayPLUS doesn't pay the bills any more. Matter of
fact, it doesn;t even guy you a McDonald's Value Meal, now does it


> (3) ... Don (who is clearly quite a masterful hardware guy) has
> pointed out some issues that could occur depending upon your board
> revision. (And, there are more board revisions out there than what we
> tried KayPLUS upon.) The WD1002 reset line commentary is particularly
> interesting. Although we did not experience that on any of the
> boards we dealt with and I no longer have anything but a single
> Kaypro10 that is operational (with KayPLUS) to help diagnose this
> further, I am up for making improvements with Don's (or whomever) help
> for those boards where it is an issue. You all should be aware that
> even when two boards have IDENTICAL revision numbers, there was often
> hardware MISSING and often some post-assembly modifications done by
> Kaypro or by the distributor. That complicates doing upgrades
> tremendously!!!

I have a K10/84, and I also have (2) K10/83's, EPROM burner, and 2764
EPROM's, so whatever I can do to help/test let me know

>
> (4) Speaking of which, I am still on a quest to find the source code
> for KayPLUS ROM and the associated utilities. It exists and I am
> probably looking at it right now in the old 8" floppy archive vault --
> it never was transferred from the old archive to the new archive and I
> have to scare up a 8" high-density QP/M system yet. If I can find
> the source code, I am willing to make the necessary changes with this
> community's help. Unfortunately, as some of the engineers involved
> are no longer around and there are some other contractual/legal issues
> I would prefer not to hassle with, I may not be able to just toss out
> source code (which would be easiest for all). But, under MYZ80 I can
> (and have demonstrated) I can build Z80 ROMs and binary images.
> (Somehow the QP/M and Plus2 source code made it to the new archive
> system. I have tested builds using those products.)

Although I do not have a running system, I CAN offer you an Altos
ACS8000, with (2) Shugart 8" drives, if that will help. I will even pay
half the shipping to you, and the machine will be at no cost, obviously.
Couldn;t get anyone to give me $50 for it on eBay, so similar to the F4
Phantoms having one last ride as missile test drones, the ACS8000 will
get a last ride helping to work on the KayPLUS ROM.

>
> (5) To help this along, if someone has the WD1002 documentation,
> please post it. I am sure there is a copy here in the old Z80 storage
> area -- somewhere -- but that was transported piecemeal when we moved
> to our new digs and nobody knows where anything is there now. We call
> it the "Smithsonian wing" and I am the only person who dares venture
> in there. If I find mine, I will be happy to scan it into a PDF file.


I think Roger pointed out in another reply that the PDF's are out there.

Anything we can do to assist, just ask.
I am sure I'm not the only one who would rather have KayPLUS over the
TurboROM. TurboROM is limited in it's drive types, so my ST-251-1 is
setup as an ST-4038, losing about 11MB in the process. Plus, the
integrated support for my CO-Power88 as a RAMdisk, plus all the other
features of the KayPLUS, it's a no-brainer.

Thanks for your willingness to work on this - it is MUCH appreciated!

remove n0spa|\/| from below address to email me

Tony

sharkonwheels at n0spa|\/|gmail.com

"RED" wrote in
news:YMSdnZjn2qz5RkfbnZ2dnUVZ_remnZ2d@comcast.com:

>
> Hello Mitch,
>
> Just tried to email you again and this is the error that I get.
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> The following addresses had delivery problems:
>
> Permanent Failure:
> 550_5.1.1__recipient_rejected
> Delivery last attempted at Sun, 2 Sep 2007 15:31:20 -0000
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I've sent email from comcast and gmail with the same results. I've
> tried every email address on your website and get the same error. I
> answered you 3 hours after you last emailed me and that's when the
> errors started. I received you email on 7/24 at 7:01 PM and answered
> at 9:59 PM and got the error. Maybe this will help determine what the
> problem is. I am looking forward to working with you to solve this
> problem. Thanks for all the help.
>
> Ralph
>

Same here - tried from 3 SMTP servers, as well as GMAIL. GMail took a
while, but it finally gave a mailerDaemon bounce error.

remove n0spa|\/| from address below, to email me.


Tony

sharkonwheels at n0spa|\/|gmail dot com

On Sep 2, 5:45 pm, Tony wrote:
> "RED" wrote innews:YMSdnZjn2qz5RkfbnZ2dnUVZ_remnZ2d@comcast.co m:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Hello Mitch,
>
> > Just tried to email you again and this is the error that I get.
>
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > The following addresses had delivery problems:
> >
> > Permanent Failure:
> > 550_5.1.1__recipient_rejected
> > Delivery last attempted at Sun, 2 Sep 2007 15:31:20 -0000
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> > I've sent email from comcast and gmail with the same results. I've
> > tried every email address on your website and get the same error. I
> > answered you 3 hours after you last emailed me and that's when the
> > errors started. I received you email on 7/24 at 7:01 PM and answered
> > at 9:59 PM and got the error. Maybe this will help determine what the
> > problem is. I am looking forward to working with you to solve this
> > problem. Thanks for all the help.
>
> > Ralph
>
> Same here - tried from 3 SMTP servers, as well as GMAIL. GMail took a
> while, but it finally gave a mailerDaemon bounce error.
>
> remove n0spa|\/| from address below, to email me.
>
> Tony
>
> sharkonwheels at n0spa|\/|gmail dot com- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Hi All,

To get down to specifics as pointed out on page 30 of the KayPLUS
documentation, there were two types of interface cards used in the
K10. Systems with the old interface used a LOW active reset signal
while the new boards used a HIGH active reset signal. If your K10 has
an 81-188 ROM then you have the early version of the interface in your
K10. The KayPLUS ROM will work just fine in these systems as the ROM
monitor leaves this bit HIGH, removing the LOW active reset signal to
the interface card.

If you have a system with the 81-302 ROM then the KayPLUS ROM will NOT
work because these systems use a HIGH active reset signal to the
interface card. The newer interface card has an inverter in the reset
line that sends a LOW active reset signal to the WD1002 controller.
The KayPLUS ROM leaves the reset line HIGH and that causes the WD1002
controller board to stay in reset.

The top paragraph on page in the KayPLUS documentation contradicts the
instructions in section M. It says to use the KayPLUS-84 ROM in ALL
K10 system. This ROM will only work correctly if you have the early
version of the interface board. To use the ROM on the later version of
the interface card then you need to remove the inverter on the
interface card. The hard drive will then work just fine.

If you want to add a second floppy drive, as I did, to your K10 then a
whole different approach to the reset signal is needed.

Don

coates.dw@att.net wrote in
news:1188808914.391408.145300@50g2000hsm.googlegro ups.com:

>> - Show quoted text -
>
> Hi All,
>
> To get down to specifics as pointed out on page 30 of the KayPLUS
> documentation, there were two types of interface cards used in the
> K10. Systems with the old interface used a LOW active reset signal
> while the new boards used a HIGH active reset signal. If your K10 has
> an 81-188 ROM then you have the early version of the interface in your
> K10. The KayPLUS ROM will work just fine in these systems as the ROM
> monitor leaves this bit HIGH, removing the LOW active reset signal to
> the interface card.
>
> If you have a system with the 81-302 ROM then the KayPLUS ROM will NOT
> work because these systems use a HIGH active reset signal to the
> interface card. The newer interface card has an inverter in the reset
> line that sends a LOW active reset signal to the WD1002 controller.
> The KayPLUS ROM leaves the reset line HIGH and that causes the WD1002
> controller board to stay in reset.
>
> The top paragraph on page in the KayPLUS documentation contradicts the
> instructions in section M. It says to use the KayPLUS-84 ROM in ALL
> K10 system. This ROM will only work correctly if you have the early
> version of the interface board. To use the ROM on the later version of
> the interface card then you need to remove the inverter on the
> interface card. The hard drive will then work just fine.
>
> If you want to add a second floppy drive, as I did, to your K10 then a
> whole different approach to the reset signal is needed.
>
> Don
>

Not that you need confirmation, Don, but the following in as excerpt from
the Advent TurboROM manual, Appendix H:

H.3. Early Kaypro 10 Upgrade 81-303, Explanation

The two versions of the small circuit board differ primarily in
how they generate the master reset signal for the hard disk
controller board. The early version connected the second floppy
disk drive select signal directly to the hard disk controller
master reset. The later version of the small circuit board uses
the inverted second floppy disk drive select line for connection
to the hard disk controller master reset.

The modification to the early version of the small circuit board
detailed in this appendix inserts an inverter into the master
reset logic for the hard disk controller. The addition of the
inverter makes the early board functionally equivalent to the
later version.

Does that help any regarding your floppy drive issue?

The instructions they give to mod the early board is:

Make the following changes to the small circuit board.
Keep the wiring short and as neat as possible. The set
of 50 pins will be referred to as J1; the set of 40 pins will
be referred to as J2. On the solder side of the circuit
board, a square solder pad identifies pin 1 of each set of
pins. All pins in the row with pin 1 are the odd numbered
pins, all pins in the other row are even numbered pins. Refer
to Appendix E for basic information concerning the pin
numbering of IC's. Wires should be installed on the solder
side of the circuit board.

1. Cut the trace that runs from J1 pin 45 to J2 pin 39.
2. Cut the trace that runs from U1 pin 7 to U1 pin 2.
3. Add a wire from U1 pin 1 to J1 pin 45.
4. Add a wire from U1 pin 3 to J2 pin 39.
5. Add a wire from U1 pin 2 to U1 pin 14.

Doc file is at:

ftp://ftp.mrynet.com/pub/os/Kaypro/P.../Turbo_Rom.txt



Tony
sharkonwheels at n0spa|\/|gmail.com

On Sep 3, 4:22 pm, Tony wrote:
> coates...@att.net wrote innews:1188808914.391408.145300@50g2000hsm.googleg roups.com:
>
>
>
>
>
> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > Hi All,
>
> > To get down to specifics as pointed out on page 30 of theKayPLUS
> > documentation, there were two types of interface cards used in the
> > K10. Systems with the old interface used a LOW active reset signal
> > while the new boards used a HIGH active reset signal. If your K10 has
> > an 81-188 ROM then you have the early version of the interface in your
> > K10. TheKayPLUSROM will work just fine in these systems as the ROM
> > monitor leaves this bit HIGH, removing the LOW active reset signal to
> > the interface card.
>
> > If you have a system with the 81-302 ROM then theKayPLUSROM will NOT
> > work because these systems use a HIGH active reset signal to the
> > interface card. The newer interface card has an inverter in the reset
> > line that sends a LOW active reset signal to the WD1002 controller.
> > TheKayPLUSROM leaves the reset line HIGH and that causes the WD1002
> > controller board to stay in reset.
>
> > The top paragraph on page in theKayPLUSdocumentation contradicts the
> > instructions in section M. It says to use theKayPLUS-84 ROM in ALL
> > K10 system. This ROM will only work correctly if you have the early
> > version of the interface board. To use the ROM on the later version of
> > the interface card then you need to remove the inverter on the
> > interface card. The hard drive will then work just fine.
>
> > If you want to add a second floppy drive, as I did, to your K10 then a
> > whole different approach to the reset signal is needed.
>
> > Don
>
> Not that you need confirmation, Don, but the following in as excerpt from
> the Advent TurboROM manual, Appendix H:
>
>

> H.3. Early Kaypro 10 Upgrade 81-303, Explanation
>
> The two versions of the small circuit board differ primarily in
> how they generate the master reset signal for the hard disk
> controller board. The early version connected the second floppy
> disk drive select signal directly to the hard disk controller
> master reset. The later version of the small circuit board uses
> the inverted second floppy disk drive select line for connection
> to the hard disk controller master reset.
>
> The modification to the early version of the small circuit board
> detailed in this appendix inserts an inverter into the master
> reset logic for the hard disk controller. The addition of the
> inverter makes the early board functionally equivalent to the
> later version.
>

>
> Does that help any regarding your floppy drive issue?
>
> The instructions they give to mod the early board is:
>
>

>
> Make the following changes to the small circuit board.
> Keep the wiring short and as neat as possible. The set
> of 50 pins will be referred to as J1; the set of 40 pins will
> be referred to as J2. On the solder side of the circuit
> board, a square solder pad identifies pin 1 of each set of
> pins. All pins in the row with pin 1 are the odd numbered
> pins, all pins in the other row are even numbered pins. Refer
> to Appendix E for basic information concerning the pin
> numbering of IC's. Wires should be installed on the solder
> side of the circuit board.
>
> 1. Cut the trace that runs from J1 pin 45 to J2 pin 39.
> 2. Cut the trace that runs from U1 pin 7 to U1 pin 2.
> 3. Add a wire from U1 pin 1 to J1 pin 45.
> 4. Add a wire from U1 pin 3 to J2 pin 39.
> 5. Add a wire from U1 pin 2 to U1 pin 14.
>
>

>
> Doc file is at:
>
> ftp://ftp.mrynet.com/pub/os/Kaypro/P.../Turbo_Rom.txt
>
> Tony
> sharkonwheels at n0spa|\/|gmail.com- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Tony,

Their in lies the problem. You need to reverse that mod in order to
get the hard drive to work. That's why the early model K10's work but
the later model's don't.

Don

coates.dw@att.net wrote in
news:1188859961.345544.196430@19g2000hsx.googlegro ups.com:


>
> Tony,
>
> Their in lies the problem. You need to reverse that mod in order to
> get the hard drive to work. That's why the early model K10's work but
> the later model's don't.
>
> Don
>
>

I'm going to assume, since the '84 TurboROM V3.4 works in my machines
(all 3: 2 x K10/83, later I/F board, and 1 x K10/84) that, assuming Mitch
can find the source and resources, the KayPLUS can me modified to work?

Am I correct in assuming this is a software issue in the KayPLUS?
Basically, if i do the mod you suggest, I would be basically reverting the
interface board to the early generation, correct?

That would be unacceptable, and would basically render the TurboROM and 81-
302 rom unusable. Only the KayPLUS and the 81-188 ROM would work in that
machine, and frankly, I don't want to limit my machine that severely.

If no patch to the KayPlus is done, I'll stick to the TurboROM.
I guess, alternatively, I could look for an older interface board, but that
will likely require buying a complete K10, which is not a cheap proposition
nowadays, and short of someone actually looking inside the machine, there
is NO guarantee!


I dunno - I will have to think about it. Any way to wire up a toggle to go
between the 2 setups?


Tony
sharkonwheels at n0spa|\/|gmail.com