CP/M bootable CD? - CP/M

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  1. CP/M bootable CD?

    I've been playing with Knoppix lately. This is a version of Linux that
    boots from a CD, and leaves the hard drive of the host computer
    unaffected. This means you can stick it in any PC to try out Linux with
    zero effort or knowledge; play around or even do useful work. When you
    pull the CD, the computer is exactly as you found it.

    I got to thinking (alway dangerous :-) Could one make a bootable CP/M
    CD, that could be put in any PC to "play" with CP/M? There's room on the
    CD for CP/M and an entire library of applications, games, tools, tons of
    manuals and documentation, and still leave room to save even more.
    --
    Ring the bells that still can ring
    Forget the perfect offering
    There is a crack in everything
    That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
    --
    Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

  2. Re: CP/M bootable CD?


    Lee Hart wrote:
    > I've been playing with Knoppix lately. This is a version of Linux that
    > boots from a CD, and leaves the hard drive of the host computer
    > unaffected. This means you can stick it in any PC to try out Linux with
    > zero effort or knowledge; play around or even do useful work. When you
    > pull the CD, the computer is exactly as you found it.
    >
    > I got to thinking (alway dangerous :-) Could one make a bootable CP/M
    > CD, that could be put in any PC to "play" with CP/M? There's room on the
    > CD for CP/M and an entire library of applications, games, tools, tons of
    > manuals and documentation, and still leave room to save even more.


    Thats an interesting idea. I think what you would have to do is setup
    CP/M (probably CP/M 86) on a hard drive, put all the programs you want
    on it than make that hd your secondary drive, boot the PC in dos,
    windows or linux and use some software to copu the contents to the cd
    as an image. What is the limit on Disc size on CP/M?

    Bill H www.ts1000.us
    > --
    > Ring the bells that still can ring
    > Forget the perfect offering
    > There is a crack in everything
    > That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
    > --
    > Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net



  3. Re: CP/M bootable CD?


    "Lee Hart" wrote in message
    news:43EE15D5.BF802084@earthlink.net...
    > I've been playing with Knoppix lately. This is a version of Linux that
    > boots from a CD, and leaves the hard drive of the host computer
    > unaffected. This means you can stick it in any PC to try out Linux with
    > zero effort or knowledge; play around or even do useful work. When you
    > pull the CD, the computer is exactly as you found it.
    >
    > I got to thinking (alway dangerous :-) Could one make a bootable CP/M
    > CD, that could be put in any PC to "play" with CP/M? There's room on the
    > CD for CP/M and an entire library of applications, games, tools, tons of
    > manuals and documentation, and still leave room to save even more.
    > --
    > Ring the bells that still can ring
    > Forget the perfect offering
    > There is a crack in everything
    > That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
    > --
    > Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net


    Though it may not be quite what you had in mind, I created an MS-DOS
    bootable CD with an emulator and CP/M running on it. The problem was that I
    couldn't save anything. I fixed that by moving the whole works to a USB
    thumb drive. This lets me work in CP/M and I can modify and save files. If
    I need to extract something to put on my PC, I can export from the emulated
    disk images to the FAT partition on the USB drive, and read it in DOS or
    Wondows.

    FYI, this was done using a TRS-80 Model 4 emulator and an image of CP/M by
    Montezuma Micro. The emulator, when run this way, also allows me to read and
    write to 3.5" floppy disks, so I can move files between my real TRS-80 and
    the PC.

    Larry




  4. Re: CP/M bootable CD?

    On Sat, 11 Feb 2006 16:51:34 GMT, Lee Hart
    wrote:

    >I've been playing with Knoppix lately. This is a version of Linux that
    >boots from a CD, and leaves the hard drive of the host computer
    >unaffected. This means you can stick it in any PC to try out Linux with
    >zero effort or knowledge; play around or even do useful work. When you
    >pull the CD, the computer is exactly as you found it.
    >
    >I got to thinking (alway dangerous :-) Could one make a bootable CP/M
    >CD, that could be put in any PC to "play" with CP/M? There's room on the
    >CD for CP/M and an entire library of applications, games, tools, tons of
    >manuals and documentation, and still leave room to save even more.
    >--


    Lee,

    Interesting idea. You'd have to use one of the CP/M clones (P2dos,
    Zrdos and friends) to get around the 8mb limit of DRI CP/M. But
    having an emulator for a nice CP/M system (maybe even a full boat
    emulation) that "just runs" from a CD would likely be popular.

    When it comes to emulators My favorites are MyZ80 and Dave Dunfields
    Horizon as they suit my particular likes and needs. I havent tried to
    put them on CD. I have moved them to a older 486 laptop where they
    are very handy.

    Allison

  5. Re: CP/M bootable CD?

    Lee Hart wrote:
    : I got to thinking (alway dangerous :-) Could one make a bootable CP/M
    : CD, that could be put in any PC to "play" with CP/M? There's room on the
    : CD for CP/M and an entire library of applications, games, tools, tons of
    : manuals and documentation, and still leave room to save even more.

    Wikipedia may be helpful here; the article



    links to the original bootable CDROM specification, and to various pieces of
    sample code.
    Without rewriting the CP/M-86 BIOS, it looks like a bootable CDROM can
    emulate at most one 2.8Mb floppy disk or one hard drive partition - which in
    the case of CP/M-86 1.1 would give 8Mb. Access to other volumes would
    require the CP/M BIOS to know what a CD was and to deblock the 800 byte
    sectors that CDs apparently use.

    In order to avoid the problem of all the drives being read-only, I'd
    suggest that any such CP/M-86 live CD include Freek Heite's XMS RAMdisk.
    Any PC that can boot from a CD should have plenty of RAM for this purpose.

    --
    ------------- http://www.seasip.demon.co.uk/index.html --------------------
    John Elliott |BLOODNOK: "But why have you got such a long face?"
    |SEAGOON: "Heavy dentures, Sir!" - The Goon Show
    :-------------------------------------------------------------------------)

  6. Re: CP/M bootable CD?

    On Sat, 11 Feb 2006 16:51:34 GMT, Lee Hart
    wrote:

    >I've been playing with Knoppix lately. This is a version of Linux that
    >boots from a CD, and leaves the hard drive of the host computer
    >unaffected. This means you can stick it in any PC to try out Linux with
    >zero effort or knowledge; play around or even do useful work. When you
    >pull the CD, the computer is exactly as you found it.
    >
    >I got to thinking (alway dangerous :-) Could one make a bootable CP/M
    >CD, that could be put in any PC to "play" with CP/M? There's room on the
    >CD for CP/M and an entire library of applications, games, tools, tons of
    >manuals and documentation, and still leave room to save even more.
    >--
    >Ring the bells that still can ring
    >Forget the perfect offering
    >There is a crack in everything
    >That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen


    CP/M86 might be possible, but the original CP/M ran on an eight bit
    processor, so you would first need to start up an emulator for one of
    those processors (8080, 8085 or Z80). I prefer the eight bit
    processors myself, so haven't ever looked at CP/M86.

    Bob McConnell
    N2SPP


  7. Re: CP/M bootable CD?

    It's definitely possible, as CP/M does not normally do any writing to
    any disk drive (unless you write to a drive, of course). You would just
    need to work out the load process. In fact, since both CP/M and CP/M-86
    can boot from a floppy disk, this would be easy: Make a bootable floppy
    and use that as the "image" to make a bootable CD.


    Lee Hart wrote:

    > I've been playing with Knoppix lately. This is a version of Linux that
    > boots from a CD, and leaves the hard drive of the host computer
    > unaffected. This means you can stick it in any PC to try out Linux with
    > zero effort or knowledge; play around or even do useful work. When you
    > pull the CD, the computer is exactly as you found it.
    >
    > I got to thinking (alway dangerous :-) Could one make a bootable CP/M
    > CD, that could be put in any PC to "play" with CP/M? There's room on the
    > CD for CP/M and an entire library of applications, games, tools, tons of
    > manuals and documentation, and still leave room to save even more.


  8. Re: CP/M bootable CD?

    On Sun, 12 Feb 2006 00:27:10 +0000, John Elliott
    wrote:

    >Lee Hart wrote:
    >: I got to thinking (alway dangerous :-) Could one make a bootable CP/M
    >: CD, that could be put in any PC to "play" with CP/M? There's room on the
    >: CD for CP/M and an entire library of applications, games, tools, tons of
    >: manuals and documentation, and still leave room to save even more.
    >
    > Wikipedia may be helpful here; the article
    >
    >
    >
    >links to the original bootable CDROM specification, and to various pieces of
    >sample code.
    > Without rewriting the CP/M-86 BIOS, it looks like a bootable CDROM can
    >emulate at most one 2.8Mb floppy disk or one hard drive partition - which in
    >the case of CP/M-86 1.1 would give 8Mb. Access to other volumes would
    >require the CP/M BIOS to know what a CD was and to deblock the 800 byte
    >sectors that CDs apparently use.


    CP/M86 disks are 32mb. It's CP/M-80 thats limited to 8mb unless your
    using one of the improved bdos clones then you can go far larger.

    the 800byte blocks sound odd to me. However CP/M [80 or 86] can
    deblock as needed.

    > In order to avoid the problem of all the drives being read-only, I'd
    >suggest that any such CP/M-86 live CD include Freek Heite's XMS RAMdisk.
    >Any PC that can boot from a CD should have plenty of RAM for this purpose.


    I suspect you could interpose the host cpu (X86 and ram) between the
    CPU emulator and CP/M running on it so that it looks like something
    manageable.

    Allison


  9. CP/M-86 Hard Disk Capabilities (was: 'Re: CP/M bootable CD?')


    On 2006-02-12 Allison P. said:

    > CP/M86 disks are 32mb.


    Not entirely correct, Al.

    There were a few OEM permutations of the O.S. labeled as 'CP/M-86'
    that supported 32-meg hard disk partitions.

    However, DRI's own release of "CP/M-86 For The IBM, Version 1.1"
    -- the permutation most frequently referenced in this newsgroup --
    natively supports only an 8-meg partition.

    In July 2001, Freek Heite wrote and released a software driver
    which enables "CP/M-86 For The IBM" to utilize up to 120 megs
    of hard disk space.

    It also allows "CP/M-86 For The IBM" to be installed on ultra-huge
    multi-gigabyte hard disks -- a feat that's impossible to accomplish
    with DRI's native 'HDMAINT.CMD' utility.

    Heite's 'CVV' driver was a marvelous technological advance, and is
    now considered a "standard" by the IBM-based CP/M-86 computing
    community.

    While it has achieved "must-have" status among today's CP/M-86
    aficionados, Freek Heite's 'CVV' driver is a third-party add-on.

    Straight-out-of-the-box, "CP/M-86 For The IBM, Version 1.1" remains
    intrinsically limited to an 8 meg hard disk partition.

    Hope this helps.

    ---
    The CP/M-86 Software Repository:
    http://www.seanet.com/~klaw/


  10. Re: CP/M-86 Hard Disk Capabilities (was: 'Re: CP/M bootable CD?')

    On Mon, 13 Feb 2006 00:43:55 +0000 (UTC), "Anonymous Guy"
    wrote:

    >
    >On 2006-02-12 Allison P. said:
    >
    > > CP/M86 disks are 32mb.

    >
    >Not entirely correct, Al.
    >
    >There were a few OEM permutations of the O.S. labeled as 'CP/M-86'
    >that supported 32-meg hard disk partitions.
    >
    >However, DRI's own release of "CP/M-86 For The IBM, Version 1.1"
    >-- the permutation most frequently referenced in this newsgroup --
    >natively supports only an 8-meg partition.
    >
    >In July 2001, Freek Heite wrote and released a software driver
    >which enables "CP/M-86 For The IBM" to utilize up to 120 megs
    >of hard disk space.
    >
    >It also allows "CP/M-86 For The IBM" to be installed on ultra-huge
    >multi-gigabyte hard disks -- a feat that's impossible to accomplish
    >with DRI's native 'HDMAINT.CMD' utility.
    >
    >Heite's 'CVV' driver was a marvelous technological advance, and is
    >now considered a "standard" by the IBM-based CP/M-86 computing
    >community.
    >
    >While it has achieved "must-have" status among today's CP/M-86
    >aficionados, Freek Heite's 'CVV' driver is a third-party add-on.
    >
    >Straight-out-of-the-box, "CP/M-86 For The IBM, Version 1.1" remains
    >intrinsically limited to an 8 meg hard disk partition.
    >
    >Hope this helps.
    >
    >---
    >The CP/M-86 Software Repository:
    >http://www.seanet.com/~klaw/


    CPM-86

    When the PC was a POS trying to be real with a hard disk I was
    running a multibus system with 8086 at 8mhz an a meg of ram
    the first disk we ran was 5mb, then we found a 10mb ran that too
    without partitions. Maybe the PC had a crippleware BIOS.

    Allison


  11. Re: CP/M-86 Hard Disk Capabilities (was: ' CP/M bootable CD?')


    On 2006-02-13 Allison P. said:

    > "Anonymous Guy" wrote:
    >
    > > Straight-out-of-the-box, "CP/M-86 For The IBM, Version 1.1"
    > > remains intrinsically limited to an 8 meg hard disk partition.

    >
    > When the PC was a POS trying to be real with a hard disk I was
    > running a multibus system with 8086 at 8mhz an a meg of ram
    > the first disk we ran was 5mb, then we found a 10mb ran that too
    > without partitions.



    Sure; but you undoubtedly weren't running the 'IBM' version of
    CP/M-86.

    As stated in a previous message, there were a few OEM permuta-
    tions of CP/M-86 that could handle 32-meg hard disks.


    > Maybe the PC had a crippleware BIOS.
    >
    > Allison



    It's unrelated to the PC's ROM BIOS. Rather, it has to do with
    the internal coding of the DRI release of "CP/M-86 For The IBM."

    Just like CP/M-80, the DRI permutation of CP/M-86 can't "count"
    higher than 8 megs.

    As mentioned previously, some OEM releases of CP/M-86 fixed this.

    For example, CompuView Products (maker of 'VEDIT' and other software
    apps) once manufactured and sold a licensed version of "CP/M-86 For
    The IBM, Version 1.1" that was greatly enhanced over DRI's original.

    The CompuView permutation supported 32-meg hard disks, had the native
    ability to read M$-DOS floppy disks, and had a number of other niceties
    that DRI never saw fit to include in CP/M-86.

    Around this time (circa 1984), DRI was beginning its downward slide.

    Internally, DRI appeared to be suffering from a lack of focus --
    neglecting development of its pre-existing products, while releasing
    too many "new" (and sometimes incompatible) O.S.es into a market that
    couldn't possibly absorb them all.

    Sure would like to get my hands on a copy of that CompuView CP/M-86.




  12. Re: CP/M-86 Hard Disk Capabilities (was: ' CP/M bootable CD?')

    On Mon, 13 Feb 2006 08:22:11 +0000 (UTC), "Anonymous Guy"
    wrote:

    >
    >On 2006-02-13 Allison P. said:
    >
    > > "Anonymous Guy" wrote:
    > >
    > > > Straight-out-of-the-box, "CP/M-86 For The IBM, Version 1.1"
    > > > remains intrinsically limited to an 8 meg hard disk partition.

    > >
    > > When the PC was a POS trying to be real with a hard disk I was
    > > running a multibus system with 8086 at 8mhz an a meg of ram
    > > the first disk we ran was 5mb, then we found a 10mb ran that too
    > > without partitions.

    >
    >
    >Sure; but you undoubtedly weren't running the 'IBM' version of
    >CP/M-86.
    >
    >As stated in a previous message, there were a few OEM permuta-
    >tions of CP/M-86 that could handle 32-meg hard disks.
    >
    >
    > > Maybe the PC had a crippleware BIOS.
    > >
    > > Allison

    >
    >
    >It's unrelated to the PC's ROM BIOS. Rather, it has to do with
    >the internal coding of the DRI release of "CP/M-86 For The IBM."
    >
    >Just like CP/M-80, the DRI permutation of CP/M-86 can't "count"
    >higher than 8 megs.
    >
    >As mentioned previously, some OEM releases of CP/M-86 fixed this.
    >
    >For example, CompuView Products (maker of 'VEDIT' and other software
    >apps) once manufactured and sold a licensed version of "CP/M-86 For
    >The IBM, Version 1.1" that was greatly enhanced over DRI's original.
    >
    >The CompuView permutation supported 32-meg hard disks, had the native
    >ability to read M$-DOS floppy disks, and had a number of other niceties
    >that DRI never saw fit to include in CP/M-86.
    >
    >Around this time (circa 1984), DRI was beginning its downward slide.
    >
    >Internally, DRI appeared to be suffering from a lack of focus --
    >neglecting development of its pre-existing products, while releasing
    >too many "new" (and sometimes incompatible) O.S.es into a market that
    >couldn't possibly absorb them all.
    >
    >Sure would like to get my hands on a copy of that CompuView CP/M-86.
    >
    >

    Since your mailer can't maintain a thread...

    If thats what you believe.

    When I said BIOS I wasn't talking about the PC ROM based sillyness.
    The copy of CP/M had to carry a BIOS if only to interface it to the PC
    BIOS as the cpm-86 standard bios was not a pc compatable thing.

    CP/M-86 used 512byte sectors like CP/M3 (aka plus) and the math was
    65535* 512=32mb .

    CP/M80V3 was also 32mb.
    CP/M80V2 was 8mb

    just the way it was.

    Allison

  13. Re: CP/M-86 Hard Disk Capabilities (was: ' CP/M bootable CD?')


    On 2006-02-13 Allison P. said:

    > Since your mailer can't maintain a thread...
    >
    > If thats what you believe.
    >
    > When I said BIOS I wasn't talking about the PC ROM based sillyness.
    > The copy of CP/M had to carry a BIOS if only to interface it to the
    > PC BIOS as the cpm-86 standard bios was not a pc compatable thing.
    >
    > CP/M-86 used 512byte sectors like CP/M3 (aka plus) and the math was
    > 65535* 512=32mb .
    >
    > CP/M80V3 was also 32mb.
    > CP/M80V2 was 8mb
    >
    > just the way it was.
    >
    > Allison



    Quoting from the "CP/M-86 User's Guide Supplement for the IBM
    Personal Computer and for the IBM Personal Computer XT," page 2-1:

    ,-------------------------------------------------------------------
    |
    | Section 2 - Support for the IBM Hard Disk
    |
    | Hard-disk Volume Size under CP/M-86
    |
    | In the Personal Computer XT and Personal Computer with IBM hard
    | disk, CP/M-86 allows you to configure a hard-disk volume size
    | from 10 cylinders to the maximum number of cylinders your hard
    | disk allows. Volumes of up to 8192K are completely compatible
    | with CP/M-86. Volumes larger than 8192K are compatible with
    | Concurrent CP/M-86, Digital Research's multitasking operating
    | system for the Personal Computer XT. If you specify a volume
    | size larger than 8192K, HDMAINT warns you that it cannot be used
    | with CP/M-86. CP/M-86 is not able to access your hard disk if
    | you specify a volume size larger than 8192K.
    |
    |_________________________________________________ __________________


  14. Re: CP/M bootable CD?

    Thanks for the encouragement, folks. Sounds like this might be a project
    worth doing!

    Allison wrote:
    > Interesting idea. You'd have to use one of the CP/M clones (P2dos,
    > Zrdos and friends) to get around the 8mb limit of DRI CP/M. But
    > having an emulator for a nice CP/M system (maybe even a full boat
    > emulation) that "just runs" from a CD would likely be popular.
    >
    > When it comes to emulators, my favorites are MyZ80 and Dave Dunfield's
    > Horizon as they suit my particular likes and needs.


    Yes; CP/M-80 is what I had in mind. I'm more familiar with it, and it's
    the harder problem (CP/M-86 is easier to get working, so people
    shouldn't need as much help).

    My thought is that booting the CD would give you a CP/M emulation of
    some classic CP/M computer. The PC's keyboard, screen, serial, and
    parallel ports would work the same as the machine being emulated.

    As for disk drives: I assume that the CP/M A: drive would actually be a
    RAM disk, that comes up already loaded with all the usual CP/M files
    (boot tracks, ccp, bdos, stat, pip, asm, load, etc.). It would also have
    a typical selection of application programs; editors, languages, etc.

    If all you ever used was the A: drive, the CP/M emulator would leave no
    "footprint" in the PC. It wouldn't alter anything on the PC, but you
    would lose whatever work you did.

    The B: and C: drives might be the PC's floppy and hard drive. These
    would give you a way to save data so it would be there the next time you
    booted the CP/M-CD. The file formats would probably be PC formats, as no
    classic CP/M computer would have worked with 1.44meg floppies or our
    huge modern hard drives anyway. However, if only your data files are on
    the B: drive, a single 1.44meg disk can hold a *lot* of CP/M work! With
    your CD and this 1.44meg floppy, you can carry your CP/M world to any
    computer.

    As for how CP/M would deal with the huge CD: My (rather naive) thought
    is that the CD could appear to CP/M as a huge box of floppy disks, each
    under 8 megs. Each of these simulated floppies is in a directory
    (CPMUG-v.050, GAMES.001, etc.) We provide a CP/M program to mount one
    of these directories as the D: drive. For example, "mount cpmug-v.050"
    makes this subdirectory on the CD become the CP/M emulator's D: drive.
    This would allow one to select any disk, type its readme files, pip
    files back and forth, etc. Crude, but it has the right "feel" for an old
    CP/M system.

    The first challenge may be to pick a good CP/M emulator. I'm not really
    happy with the ones I have; they all make many compromises to be
    DOS-like rather than CP/M-like. They require renaming .COM files as
    ..CPM, or don't have a real BDOS or CCP, or don't emulate any CP/M style
    terminal, or other things that cause many CP/M programs not to work.
    --
    Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

  15. Re: CP/M bootable CD?

    On 2006-02-13, Lee Hart wrote:
    > The first challenge may be to pick a good CP/M emulator. I'm not really
    > happy with the ones I have; they all make many compromises to be
    > DOS-like rather than CP/M-like. They require renaming .COM files as
    > .CPM, or don't have a real BDOS or CCP, or don't emulate any CP/M style
    > terminal, or other things that cause many CP/M programs not to work.


    AZ80 seems to fit this definition, as a real emulator, although you have to
    talk to it with a telnet client. I haven't found anything that doesn't work
    with it.
    --
    Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.cx
    http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
    http://www.hercules-390.org (Yes, that's me!)
    Buy Hercules stuff at http://www.cafepress.com/hercules-390

  16. Re: CP/M bootable CD?

    On Mon, 13 Feb 2006 22:56:50 GMT, Lee Hart
    wrote:

    >Thanks for the encouragement, folks. Sounds like this might be a project
    >worth doing!


    I think it is.

    >Allison wrote:
    >> Interesting idea. You'd have to use one of the CP/M clones (P2dos,
    >> Zrdos and friends) to get around the 8mb limit of DRI CP/M. But
    >> having an emulator for a nice CP/M system (maybe even a full boat
    >> emulation) that "just runs" from a CD would likely be popular.
    >>
    >> When it comes to emulators, my favorites are MyZ80 and Dave Dunfield's
    >> Horizon as they suit my particular likes and needs.

    >
    >Yes; CP/M-80 is what I had in mind. I'm more familiar with it, and it's
    >the harder problem (CP/M-86 is easier to get working, so people
    >shouldn't need as much help).
    >
    >My thought is that booting the CD would give you a CP/M emulation of
    >some classic CP/M computer. The PC's keyboard, screen, serial, and
    >parallel ports would work the same as the machine being emulated.


    I've done that with daves sim. It can be cranky under NT4/Win2k and
    other protected IO systems though. But unce I figured it out it's
    pretty cool to have a real terminal hooked into the serial port as if
    it were a real NS* Horizon.

    >As for disk drives: I assume that the CP/M A: drive would actually be a
    >RAM disk, that comes up already loaded with all the usual CP/M files
    >(boot tracks, ccp, bdos, stat, pip, asm, load, etc.). It would also have
    >a typical selection of application programs; editors, languages, etc.


    make is a hard disk set RO.

    >If all you ever used was the A: drive, the CP/M emulator would leave no
    >"footprint" in the PC. It wouldn't alter anything on the PC, but you
    >would lose whatever work you did.
    >
    >The B: and C: drives might be the PC's floppy and hard drive. These
    >would give you a way to save data so it would be there the next time you
    >booted the CP/M-CD. The file formats would probably be PC formats, as no
    >classic CP/M computer would have worked with 1.44meg floppies or our
    >huge modern hard drives anyway. However, if only your data files are on
    >the B: drive, a single 1.44meg disk can hold a *lot* of CP/M work! With
    >your CD and this 1.44meg floppy, you can carry your CP/M world to any
    >computer.


    Makes sense or have an "import/export" utility to move things betwen
    the PC and the emulated system, MyZ80 does this.

    >As for how CP/M would deal with the huge CD: My (rather naive) thought
    >is that the CD could appear to CP/M as a huge box of floppy disks, each
    >under 8 megs. Each of these simulated floppies is in a directory
    >(CPMUG-v.050, GAMES.001, etc.) We provide a CP/M program to mount one
    >of these directories as the D: drive. For example, "mount cpmug-v.050"
    >makes this subdirectory on the CD become the CP/M emulator's D: drive.
    >This would allow one to select any disk, type its readme files, pip
    >files back and forth, etc. Crude, but it has the right "feel" for an old
    >CP/M system.


    Reasonable to do. CP/M has no concept of "mounting/dismounting"
    drives but there is no prohibition. I've done it using a larger hard
    disk that I didn't want 16 partitions (drive was 250mb) and still not
    access it all. So I made partitions line up on track boundaries
    and made the "offset" parameter changeable for drive C: modifyable.
    Since A: was the boot drive and (permanent partition) a simple utility
    would change the table and do a warm boot and tada new drive
    mounted. Hal Bowers BP bios also has a table driven interface for
    drive selection that would work well for this (just chage table
    entries).

    >The first challenge may be to pick a good CP/M emulator. I'm not really
    >happy with the ones I have; they all make many compromises to be
    >DOS-like rather than CP/M-like. They require renaming .COM files as
    >.CPM, or don't have a real BDOS or CCP, or don't emulate any CP/M style
    >terminal, or other things that cause many CP/M programs not to work.


    Look at MyZ80 and Dave's Horizon sim as possible examples.

    The biggest problem is if the sim wants to use ports (printer, serial
    disk) OSs such as NT4 and nt5(win2000/xp) tend to barf at that. it's
    doable but more messing with PC programming than I consider fun.

    Allison

  17. Re: CP/M-86 Hard Disk Capabilities (was: ' CP/M bootable CD?')

    On Mon, 13 Feb 2006 22:44:37 +0000 (UTC), "Anonymous Guy"
    wrote:

    >
    >On 2006-02-13 Allison P. said:
    >
    >> Since your mailer can't maintain a thread...
    >>
    >> If thats what you believe.
    >>
    >> When I said BIOS I wasn't talking about the PC ROM based sillyness.
    >> The copy of CP/M had to carry a BIOS if only to interface it to the
    >> PC BIOS as the cpm-86 standard bios was not a pc compatable thing.
    >>
    >> CP/M-86 used 512byte sectors like CP/M3 (aka plus) and the math was
    >> 65535* 512=32mb .
    >>
    >> CP/M80V3 was also 32mb.
    >> CP/M80V2 was 8mb
    >>
    >> just the way it was.
    >>
    >> Allison

    >
    >
    >Quoting from the "CP/M-86 User's Guide Supplement for the IBM
    >Personal Computer and for the IBM Personal Computer XT," page 2-1:
    >
    >,-------------------------------------------------------------------
    >|
    >| Section 2 - Support for the IBM Hard Disk
    >|
    >| Hard-disk Volume Size under CP/M-86
    >|
    >| In the Personal Computer XT and Personal Computer with IBM hard
    >| disk, CP/M-86 allows you to configure a hard-disk volume size
    >| from 10 cylinders to the maximum number of cylinders your hard
    >| disk allows. Volumes of up to 8192K are completely compatible
    >| with CP/M-86. Volumes larger than 8192K are compatible with
    >| Concurrent CP/M-86, Digital Research's multitasking operating
    >| system for the Personal Computer XT. If you specify a volume
    >| size larger than 8192K, HDMAINT warns you that it cannot be used
    >| with CP/M-86. CP/M-86 is not able to access your hard disk if
    >| you specify a volume size larger than 8192K.
    >|
    >|_________________________________________________ __________________


    My CPM86 alteration guide has none of that crap. It's a PCism. And
    my guide is old enough that Concurrent was not a pruduct for a bunch
    of years .


    Allison

  18. Re: CP/M-86 Hard Disk Capabilities

    Allison-nospam@nouce.bellatlantic.net wrote:
    : CP/M-86 used 512byte sectors like CP/M3 (aka plus) and the math was
    : 65535* 512=32mb .

    Not in the IBM version it doesn't; the BIOS in CP/M-86 for the IBM uses
    128-byte sectors. At 0051:2C08 is the code that translates a sector number
    to an offset in the currently loaded track, and that very definitely uses
    128-byte sectors:

    mov cl,7
    shl ax,cl ;Sector number * 128 gives address in buffer
    mov word ptr 3A68h,ax
    mov cx,64 ;64 words = 128 bytes
    ret

    PCP/M-86 and DOS Plus do use 512-byte sectors, being based on CCP/M.

    --
    ------------- http://www.seasip.demon.co.uk/index.html --------------------
    John Elliott |BLOODNOK: "But why have you got such a long face?"
    |SEAGOON: "Heavy dentures, Sir!" - The Goon Show
    :-------------------------------------------------------------------------)

  19. Re: CP/M bootable CD?


    wrote in message
    > The biggest problem is if the sim wants to use ports (printer, serial
    > disk) OSs such as NT4 and nt5(win2000/xp) tend to barf at that. it's
    > doable but more messing with PC programming than I consider fun.
    >
    > Allison


    If you make the CD bootable with MSDOS or PCDOS then you don't have to fight
    NT4 or XP for hardware rights. Most CD burning programs (like Nero) can
    make a bootable CD. Then just autoexec into your simulator.

    Larry



  20. Re: CP/M bootable CD?

    Larry wrote:
    >
    > wrote in message
    > > The biggest problem is if the sim wants to use ports (printer, serial
    > > disk) OSs such as NT4 and nt5(win2000/xp) tend to barf at that. it's
    > > doable but more messing with PC programming than I consider fun.
    > >
    > > Allison

    >
    > If you make the CD bootable with MSDOS or PCDOS then you don't have to fight
    > NT4 or XP for hardware rights. Most CD burning programs (like Nero) can
    > make a bootable CD. Then just autoexec into your simulator.
    >

    Can you make the CP/M CD a hybrid CD and bootable on the Mac
    as well as the PC??? Putting several binaries on the disk
    should *not* be a problem...plenty of room for that.

    --
    +----------------------------------------------------------------+
    | Charles and Francis Richmond richmond at plano dot net |
    +----------------------------------------------------------------+

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