Written-by-Bill-Gates BASIC Source Code - CP/M

This is a discussion on Written-by-Bill-Gates BASIC Source Code - CP/M ; I am curious as to whether any written-by-Bill-Gates, original- source, not-a-later-disassembly, source code for any BASIC on any system has ever been published. I would very much like to examine the coding style, commenting philosophy, indentation scheme, etc. that Bill ...

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  1. Written-by-Bill-Gates BASIC Source Code




    I am curious as to whether any written-by-Bill-Gates, original-
    source, not-a-later-disassembly, source code for any BASIC on
    any system has ever been published. I would very much like
    to examine the coding style, commenting philosophy, indentation
    scheme, etc. that Bill Gates used when he was writing BASIC
    interpreters.

    --
    Guy Macon



  2. Re: Written-by-Bill-Gates BASIC Source Code

    On Tue, 28 Oct 2008 13:01:26 GMT, Guy Macon wrote:

    > I am curious as to whether any written-by-Bill-Gates, original-
    > source, not-a-later-disassembly, source code for any BASIC on
    > any system has ever been published. I would very much like
    > to examine the coding style, commenting philosophy, indentation
    > scheme, etc. that Bill Gates used when he was writing BASIC
    > interpreters.


    My understanding is that the earliest ones were written in hand-optimized
    machine code. Hard to comment when your code is entirely "0001 0110 1000
    0111". (Of course, they could have written their comments on the paper
    tape...)

    --
    Why don't Australians call the rest of the world "Up Over"?

  3. Re: Written-by-Bill-Gates BASIC Source Code

    "Auric__" wrote in message
    news:Xns9B454BE738EE7auricauricauricauric@85.214.1 05.209...
    > On Tue, 28 Oct 2008 13:01:26 GMT, Guy Macon wrote:
    >
    >> I am curious as to whether any written-by-Bill-Gates, original-
    >> source, not-a-later-disassembly, source code for any BASIC on
    >> any system has ever been published. I would very much like
    >> to examine the coding style, commenting philosophy, indentation
    >> scheme, etc. that Bill Gates used when he was writing BASIC
    >> interpreters.

    >
    > My understanding is that the earliest ones were written in hand-optimized
    > machine code. Hard to comment when your code is entirely "0001 0110 1000
    > 0111". (Of course, they could have written their comments on the paper
    > tape...)


    That sounds like a 'fish tale' ... the fish gets bigger and better with
    each passing day.

    Mssrs Gates and Allen were already in the business of creating language
    compilers by the time they created the first BASIC for the "personal-size"
    computers. It's really hard to believe they did not start out like every
    other developer in those days... first writing an assembler.

    But the "ones and zeroes" story is certainly more entertaining.


    MCM




  4. Re: Written-by-Bill-Gates BASIC Source Code

    Michael Mattias wrote:
    > "Auric__" wrote in message
    > news:Xns9B454BE738EE7auricauricauricauric@85.214.1 05.209...
    >> On Tue, 28 Oct 2008 13:01:26 GMT, Guy Macon wrote:
    >>
    >>> I am curious as to whether any written-by-Bill-Gates, original-
    >>> source, not-a-later-disassembly, source code for any BASIC on
    >>> any system has ever been published. I would very much like
    >>> to examine the coding style, commenting philosophy, indentation
    >>> scheme, etc. that Bill Gates used when he was writing BASIC
    >>> interpreters.

    >>
    >> My understanding is that the earliest ones were written in
    >> hand-optimized machine code. Hard to comment when your code is
    >> entirely "0001 0110 1000 0111". (Of course, they could have written
    >> their comments on the paper tape...)

    >
    > That sounds like a 'fish tale' ... the fish gets bigger and better
    > with each passing day.
    >
    > Mssrs Gates and Allen were already in the business of creating
    > language compilers by the time they created the first BASIC for the
    > "personal-size" computers. It's really hard to believe they did not
    > start out like every other developer in those days... first writing
    > an assembler.
    > But the "ones and zeroes" story is certainly more entertaining.


    Really? So who wrote the assemblers they used? Digital Research?



  5. Re: Written-by-Bill-Gates BASIC Source Code

    In article , discgolfdad@gEEmail.com says...
    > Michael Mattias wrote:
    > > "Auric__" wrote in message
    > > news:Xns9B454BE738EE7auricauricauricauric@85.214.1 05.209...
    > >> On Tue, 28 Oct 2008 13:01:26 GMT, Guy Macon wrote:
    > >>
    > >>> I am curious as to whether any written-by-Bill-Gates, original-
    > >>> source, not-a-later-disassembly, source code for any BASIC on
    > >>> any system has ever been published. I would very much like
    > >>> to examine the coding style, commenting philosophy, indentation
    > >>> scheme, etc. that Bill Gates used when he was writing BASIC
    > >>> interpreters.
    > >>
    > >> My understanding is that the earliest ones were written in
    > >> hand-optimized machine code. Hard to comment when your code is
    > >> entirely "0001 0110 1000 0111". (Of course, they could have written
    > >> their comments on the paper tape...)

    > >
    > > That sounds like a 'fish tale' ... the fish gets bigger and better
    > > with each passing day.
    > >
    > > Mssrs Gates and Allen were already in the business of creating
    > > language compilers by the time they created the first BASIC for the
    > > "personal-size" computers. It's really hard to believe they did not
    > > start out like every other developer in those days... first writing
    > > an assembler.
    > > But the "ones and zeroes" story is certainly more entertaining.

    >
    > Really? So who wrote the assemblers they used? Digital Research?


    They were made with punch tape.


    Met vriendelijke groeten, Jawade.
    --
    http://jawade.nl/ Veel vernieuwd! Diskeditors met MBR-rebuilders!
    Bootmanager (+Vista +Linux), ClrMBR, SDir v DIRgrootte, POP3lezer,
    DOS-Filebrowser, Kalender, Webtellers en IP-log, USB-stick tester.
    >>>>>>> Interesse in e-roken? Zie de groep alt.e-roken.nl <<<<<<<<


  6. Re: Written-by-Bill-Gates BASIC Source Code

    In article ,
    "Joe The FrisbeeŽ" writes:
    > Michael Mattias wrote:
    >> "Auric__" wrote in message
    >> news:Xns9B454BE738EE7auricauricauricauric@85.214.1 05.209...
    >>> On Tue, 28 Oct 2008 13:01:26 GMT, Guy Macon wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> I am curious as to whether any written-by-Bill-Gates, original-
    >>>> source, not-a-later-disassembly, source code for any BASIC on
    >>>> any system has ever been published. I would very much like
    >>>> to examine the coding style, commenting philosophy, indentation
    >>>> scheme, etc. that Bill Gates used when he was writing BASIC
    >>>> interpreters.
    >>>
    >>> My understanding is that the earliest ones were written in
    >>> hand-optimized machine code. Hard to comment when your code is
    >>> entirely "0001 0110 1000 0111". (Of course, they could have written
    >>> their comments on the paper tape...)

    >>
    >> That sounds like a 'fish tale' ... the fish gets bigger and better
    >> with each passing day.
    >>
    >> Mssrs Gates and Allen were already in the business of creating
    >> language compilers by the time they created the first BASIC for the
    >> "personal-size" computers. It's really hard to believe they did not
    >> start out like every other developer in those days... first writing
    >> an assembler.
    >> But the "ones and zeroes" story is certainly more entertaining.

    >
    > Really? So who wrote the assemblers they used? Digital Research?


    Back when I first started doing this stuff you wrote in Assembler
    notation and then hand assembled the code. It's a lot easier to
    comprehend the structure and function of the the program when you
    can see:
    CALL F022
    as opposed to:
    11001101111100000000100010

    So, did he write all those ones and zeroes on the back of a ****tail
    napkin on board an airplane? :-)

    bill



    --
    Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
    billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
    University of Scranton |
    Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include

  7. Re: Written-by-Bill-Gates BASIC Source Code

    Joe The FrisbeeŽ wrote:

    > Really? So who wrote the assemblers they used? Digital Research?


    Their original BASIC was cross-assembled on Harvard's PDP-10 with a cross-assembler
    that they wrote.

    http://www.interact-sw.co.uk/altair/...rsions/ian.htm

  8. Re: Written-by-Bill-Gates BASIC Source Code

    Bill Gunshannon wrote:
    > In article ,
    > "Joe The FrisbeeŽ" writes:
    >> Michael Mattias wrote:
    >>> "Auric__" wrote in message
    >>> news:Xns9B454BE738EE7auricauricauricauric@85.214.1 05.209...
    >>>> On Tue, 28 Oct 2008 13:01:26 GMT, Guy Macon wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> I am curious as to whether any written-by-Bill-Gates, original-
    >>>>> source, not-a-later-disassembly, source code for any BASIC on
    >>>>> any system has ever been published. I would very much like
    >>>>> to examine the coding style, commenting philosophy, indentation
    >>>>> scheme, etc. that Bill Gates used when he was writing BASIC
    >>>>> interpreters.
    >>>>
    >>>> My understanding is that the earliest ones were written in
    >>>> hand-optimized machine code. Hard to comment when your code is
    >>>> entirely "0001 0110 1000 0111". (Of course, they could have written
    >>>> their comments on the paper tape...)
    >>>
    >>> That sounds like a 'fish tale' ... the fish gets bigger and better
    >>> with each passing day.
    >>>
    >>> Mssrs Gates and Allen were already in the business of creating
    >>> language compilers by the time they created the first BASIC for the
    >>> "personal-size" computers. It's really hard to believe they did not
    >>> start out like every other developer in those days... first writing
    >>> an assembler.
    >>> But the "ones and zeroes" story is certainly more entertaining.

    >>
    >> Really? So who wrote the assemblers they used? Digital Research?

    >
    > Back when I first started doing this stuff you wrote in Assembler
    > notation and then hand assembled the code. It's a lot easier to
    > comprehend the structure and function of the the program when you
    > can see:
    > CALL F022
    > as opposed to:
    > 11001101111100000000100010
    >
    > So, did he write all those ones and zeroes on the back of a ****tail
    > napkin on board an airplane? :-)


    Probably a bi-plane.



  9. Re: Written-by-Bill-Gates BASIC Source Code

    Jawade wrote:
    > In article ,
    > discgolfdad@gEEmail.com says...
    >> Michael Mattias wrote:
    >>> "Auric__" wrote in message
    >>> news:Xns9B454BE738EE7auricauricauricauric@85.214.1 05.209...
    >>>> On Tue, 28 Oct 2008 13:01:26 GMT, Guy Macon wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> I am curious as to whether any written-by-Bill-Gates, original-
    >>>>> source, not-a-later-disassembly, source code for any BASIC on
    >>>>> any system has ever been published. I would very much like
    >>>>> to examine the coding style, commenting philosophy, indentation
    >>>>> scheme, etc. that Bill Gates used when he was writing BASIC
    >>>>> interpreters.
    >>>>
    >>>> My understanding is that the earliest ones were written in
    >>>> hand-optimized machine code. Hard to comment when your code is
    >>>> entirely "0001 0110 1000 0111". (Of course, they could have written
    >>>> their comments on the paper tape...)
    >>>
    >>> That sounds like a 'fish tale' ... the fish gets bigger and better
    >>> with each passing day.
    >>>
    >>> Mssrs Gates and Allen were already in the business of creating
    >>> language compilers by the time they created the first BASIC for the
    >>> "personal-size" computers. It's really hard to believe they did not
    >>> start out like every other developer in those days... first writing
    >>> an assembler.
    >>> But the "ones and zeroes" story is certainly more entertaining.

    >>
    >> Really? So who wrote the assemblers they used? Digital Research?

    >
    > They were made with punch tape.


    Who spiked the punch?



  10. Re: Written-by-Bill-Gates BASIC Source Code

    Al Kossow wrote:
    > Joe The FrisbeeŽ wrote:
    >
    >> Really? So who wrote the assemblers they used? Digital Research?

    >
    > Their original BASIC was cross-assembled on Harvard's PDP-10 with a
    > cross-assembler that they wrote.
    >
    > http://www.interact-sw.co.uk/altair/...rsions/ian.htm


    Hmm... it's a wonder they (Harvard) didn't get after them for using their
    computers for personal use.



  11. Re: Written-by-Bill-Gates BASIC Source Code

    Joe The FrisbeeŽ wrote:

    > Al Kossow wrote:

    (snip)

    >>Their original BASIC was cross-assembled on Harvard's PDP-10 with a
    >>cross-assembler that they wrote.


    >>http://www.interact-sw.co.uk/altair/...rsions/ian.htm


    > Hmm... it's a wonder they (Harvard) didn't get after them for using their
    > computers for personal use.


    Many schools had, and still have, computers for personal use. Most
    you are not supposed to use for commercial purposes, though.
    Maybe Harvard should sue Microsoft.

    -- glen


  12. Re: Written-by-Bill-Gates BASIC Source Code

    Al Kossow wrote:

    >Joe The FrisbeeŽ wrote:
    >
    >> Really? So who wrote the assemblers they used? Digital Research?

    >
    >Their original BASIC was cross-assembled on Harvard's PDP-10 with a cross-assembler
    >that they wrote.
    >
    >http://www.interact-sw.co.uk/altair/...rsions/ian.htm


    Indeed Microsoft has been using cross assemblers for a long time, mostly on
    Digital Equipment PDP computers. Even when they had their own suite os
    assemblers on MS-DOS. Microsoft continued to use DEC hardware and operating
    systems until Windows NT was grown up enough.

  13. Re: Written-by-Bill-Gates BASIC Source Code



    Hello Guy Macon,
    Could you put your question in a easier way?
    Maybe it's only me, but I don't think you've
    been answered in the sligthest good way we should have done.

    Here is my answer.
    Did Gates and Allen adopted other listings to write theirs?

    Example:
    Tandy bought a BASIC from someone who adopted
    some part of some and so on ?..... but
    even today this listings are copyrighted!

    So just ask Bill if he wants to show you his listings.
    Ask him if you might disassemble it.

    Good luck.

    Gordon




    "Guy Macon" schreef in bericht
    news:79SdnRJxvNaNj5rU4p2dnAA@giganews.com...
    >
    >
    >
    > I am curious as to whether any written-by-Bill-Gates, original-
    > source, not-a-later-disassembly, source code for any BASIC on
    > any system has ever been published. I would very much like
    > to examine the coding style, commenting philosophy, indentation
    > scheme, etc. that Bill Gates used when he was writing BASIC
    > interpreters.
    >
    > --
    > Guy Macon
    >
    >




  14. Re: Written-by-Bill-Gates BASIC Source Code

    On Tue, 28 Oct 2008 12:09:02 -0400, "Joe The FrisbeeŽ"
    wrote:

    >Michael Mattias wrote:
    >> "Auric__" wrote in message
    >> news:Xns9B454BE738EE7auricauricauricauric@85.214.1 05.209...
    >>> On Tue, 28 Oct 2008 13:01:26 GMT, Guy Macon wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> I am curious as to whether any written-by-Bill-Gates, original-
    >>>> source, not-a-later-disassembly, source code for any BASIC on
    >>>> any system has ever been published. I would very much like
    >>>> to examine the coding style, commenting philosophy, indentation
    >>>> scheme, etc. that Bill Gates used when he was writing BASIC
    >>>> interpreters.
    >>>
    >>> My understanding is that the earliest ones were written in
    >>> hand-optimized machine code. Hard to comment when your code is
    >>> entirely "0001 0110 1000 0111". (Of course, they could have written
    >>> their comments on the paper tape...)

    >>
    >> That sounds like a 'fish tale' ... the fish gets bigger and better
    >> with each passing day.
    >>
    >> Mssrs Gates and Allen were already in the business of creating
    >> language compilers by the time they created the first BASIC for the
    >> "personal-size" computers. It's really hard to believe they did not
    >> start out like every other developer in those days... first writing
    >> an assembler.
    >> But the "ones and zeroes" story is certainly more entertaining.

    >
    >Really? So who wrote the assemblers they used? Digital Research?
    >



    Actually the story I'd heard was they wrote using cross platform
    assemblers and compilers using systems Like GEtymenet or
    similar modem connected remote mainframe systems.

    Allison

  15. Re: Written-by-Bill-Gates BASIC Source Code

    Gordon Rahman wrote:
    >
    >
    > "Guy Macon" schreef in bericht
    > news:79SdnRJxvNaNj5rU4p2dnAA@giganews.com...
    >>
    >>
    >> I am curious as to whether any written-by-Bill-Gates, original-
    >> source, not-a-later-disassembly, source code for any BASIC on
    >> any system has ever been published. I would very much like
    >> to examine the coding style, commenting philosophy, indentation
    >> scheme, etc. that Bill Gates used when he was writing BASIC
    >> interpreters.
    >>

    >
    > Hello Guy Macon,
    > Could you put your question in a easier way?
    > Maybe it's only me, but I don't think you've
    > been answered in the sligthest good way we should have done.
    >
    > Here is my answer.
    > Did Gates and Allen adopted other listings to write theirs?
    >
    > Example:
    > Tandy bought a BASIC from someone who adopted
    > some part of some and so on ?..... but
    > even today this listings are copyrighted!


    Gates and Allen worked from a public domain flow chart of
    the BASIC compiler produced by Kemeny and Kurtz.

    Allen indeed wrote Macro 10 macroes that would assemble to
    the right binary for the 8080. He also wrote an 8080 simulator
    to run on the PDP-10.

    --
    +----------------------------------------------------------------+
    | Charles and Francis Richmond richmond at plano dot net |
    +----------------------------------------------------------------+

  16. Re: Written-by-Bill-Gates BASIC Source Code

    Charles Richmond wrote:
    (snip)

    > Gates and Allen worked from a public domain flow chart of
    > the BASIC compiler produced by Kemeny and Kurtz.


    In the years before Altair, the usual BASIC systems
    available were the HP 2000TSB systems. It did seem
    that the systems that were used on microcomputers
    were different, but I didn't know why.

    -- glen


  17. Re: Written-by-Bill-Gates BASIC Source Code




    Charles Richmond wrote:

    >Gates and Allen worked from a public domain flow chart
    >of the BASIC compiler produced by Kemeny and Kurtz.


    Now THAT would be a cool thing to read! The obvious Google searches
    ( Flowchart BASIC Kemeny Kurtz ) didn't find it; dos anyone know
    where I can find a copy?


    --
    Guy Macon



  18. Re: Written-by-Bill-Gates BASIC Source Code

    On Oct 29, 4:38*am, Guy Macon wrote:
    > Charles Richmond wrote:
    > >Gates and Allen worked from a public domain flow chart
    > >of the BASIC compiler produced by Kemeny and Kurtz.

    >
    > Now THAT would be a cool thing to read! *The obvious Google searches
    > ( Flowchart BASIC Kemeny Kurtz ) didn't find it; dos anyone know
    > where I can find a copy?
    >
    > --
    > Guy Macon
    >


    Hi,
    Take a look at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Kemeny
    http://www.alibris.com/search/books/isbn/0471810878
    http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=a...sult#PPA246,M1

  19. Re: Written-by-Bill-Gates BASIC Source Code

    In article ,
    "Tom Lake" writes:
    >
    >
    > "Guy Macon" wrote in message
    > news:aZudnaw4vachR5rURVn_vwA@giganews.com...
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> Charles Richmond wrote:
    >>
    >>>Gates and Allen worked from a public domain flow chart
    >>>of the BASIC compiler produced by Kemeny and Kurtz.

    >>
    >> Now THAT would be a cool thing to read! The obvious Google searches
    >> ( Flowchart BASIC Kemeny Kurtz ) didn't find it; dos anyone know
    >> where I can find a copy?

    >
    > While it's not the flowchart, you can get the annotated assembly language
    > listing (for a GE-235 computer) for the first BASIC (1964)
    >
    > http://www.dtss.org/scans/BASIC/BASIC%20Compiler.pdf
    >
    > as well as an emulator for the computer and the Dartmouth Time Sharing
    > System (DTSS) it ran on.
    >
    > http://www.dtss.org/
    >
    > The first BASIC manual can be found here:
    >
    > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dartmouth/BASIC_Oct64.pdf
    >
    > It's interesting to note that most people think of BASIC as an interpretive
    > language since that was the way BASIC was implemented on small
    > computers in the '70s and '80s. The original BASIC, though, was a true
    > compiler.


    For what it's worth, I have "BASIC PROGRAMMING" Second Edition, Kemeny, Kurtz
    sitting on the desk in front of me right now. :-)

    bill

    --
    Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
    billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
    University of Scranton |
    Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include

  20. Re: Written-by-Bill-Gates BASIC Source Code

    Guy Macon schrieb:
    > I am curious as to whether any written-by-Bill-Gates, original-
    > source, not-a-later-disassembly, source code for any BASIC on
    > any system has ever been published. I would very much like
    > to examine the coding style, commenting philosophy, indentation
    > scheme, etc. that Bill Gates used when he was writing BASIC
    > interpreters.


    I don't know how Bill did it but I programmed some stuff on that eras
    hardware myself (one Altair 8800 and one KIM-1 clone). Basically you had
    a hexnumber-keyboard with six to eight hexdigits where you selected
    between "display or modify adress $0000" and then started to enter
    machine language in hex codes. Results of programms were stored at a
    address and after the program brk'ed you displayed that content.

    The first thing people did was to hook up a serial Keyboard and a
    serial Terminal and feeded some simple Terminal-Software through the
    hex-io so the terminal was actually used (I still have an DEC110
    Terminal in the basement but no KIM or Altair). After that you started
    to hack in some simple Assembler/Disassembler and then you where ready
    to go. Our RS232-Routines for the Altair-Clone were around 300 bytes and
    we copied them from a german electronic magazine (telefunken or
    something), it also supported printing to an RS232 printer, the
    disassembler was printed in a very early computer magazine from england,
    around 2000 bytes. With a whooping 4k ram this was quite useable because
    you really had the system completely for yourself, no OS, no screen
    memory, nothing... usually later you tried to burn that stuff into an
    eprom because reentering 2000-3000 bytes upon every program was
    pretty... disgusting. No affordable floppy drives back then, building
    your own eprom burner was actually cheaper and quite reliable.

    Christian Brandt

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